Obama should NEVER have agreed to that christianity forum with Rick Warren...

[cynatnite]

I posted my reservations about it here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3802139&mesg_id=3802139

I refused to watch it and I've read some of the reactions here on DU. This was a mistake for Obama and no good will come of it.

This is what happens when religion is put at the top of the list in a presidential campaign. Someone's going to come off as 'less than christian'. Obama should have kept the focus on the issues that affect people today such as the war, the economy, etc.

Hopefully, he realizes what a fuckup this was and changes his strategy. I liked him so much better during the primaries (and Hillary was my first choice) and I wish he'd get back to that. He seemed authentic then.

If he doesn't watch it, we'll be stuck with another warmongering repuke.

At this rate, I'm not holding out much hope that he's going to win the election.

[Ian David]

1. He needs to convince them that he likes to play with the same imaginary friend they do. n/t

[Epiphany4z]

2. my 2 cents

he was good ...the problem was not the forum ..it's MSM after show..I swear they watched a different show than I did..on a different channel ..on a different planet..in a different universe.

[lisa58]

3. he did fine and he showed them he'll talk to everyone - good on him.

[RoyGBiv]

4. Okay, but ...

What do you imagine would have happened had he refused the forum entirely?

The simple truth is that the evangelical vote means something, and the standard Democratic strategy of basically trying to ignore it doesn't work. Writing off a sizable population *and those influenced by them* is no more a winning strategy that cowering to it wholesale.

Obama's strategy is polite engagement of people for whom he too hopes to be the President. I'm not saying it will work, but it's something different than the strategy we've seen in recent election cycles at the national level and can't, imo, be any worse than denying those who self-identify as evangelicals have any voice in their country.

[cynatnite]

5. And what if this has done more harm than good?

What if in the eyes of evangelicals McCain comes off as a better christian than Obama? In their eyes bush is the better christian. These people are bush's base.

This is exactly why this thing was a mistake. It wasn't about important issues. It was about who is the better christian which equals who would be the better president.

This shit sickens me. :puke:

[RoyGBiv]

7. What if?

And what if it does more good than harm?

You're ignoring or missing something very obvious. If he had ignored the forum entirely, McCain would have come off better than Obama by default.

The point is to do something different to try to engage these people rather that write them off and give them to the Republicans. This is one very big reason people vote against their self-interests. The clear truth is that those influenced by evangelicals tend to vote against their self-interest precisely because Democrats don't speak to them.

[cynatnite]

10. It wouldn't have happened if he hadn't agreed to it...

just like those town hall meetings McCain wanted to have with Obama didn't happen. The campaign would have went along as normal without turning into a 'who is the better christian' contest. That's the way it should have been.

Obama wasn't writing them off. He was already reaching out to them. I didn't like it, but I could suck it up. This was different. This was putting both of them side by side just so people could see who was more of a christian. This was a forum on religion being moderated by a pastor. A fucking pastor!

This is how low this country has sunk. It's not about politics anymore. It's about fucking religion.

A real leader would have stood up and denounced the attempt to interject religion into politics. How much he believes shouldn't be in question. It's what he will do working for the people.

A leader leads...not tells people what they want to hear and that's exactly what Obama did by agreeing to this farce.

Right now I'm so fucking disappointed in Obama that I could cry.

[RoyGBiv]

15. I disagree ...

But, you're right in one thing. Leaders do lead.

They don't cater only to those who think they know what's best for them.

[frebrd]

9. It sure did morre harm than good where I'm concerned.

I keep trying to like the guy, and he keeps not letting me!

Those fundies aren't going to vote for him; he's just making an ass of himself.

[RoyGBiv]

13. How do you know?

People who live on the Internet are amazing. They somehow seem to have developed an ability to know, with clarity (at least in their own minds), the long-term effects of everything that happens the moment it happens.

I'll suggest that your opinion is your own, that *you* don't like what he is saying. Is it possible you don't like those who have beliefs that don't match your own to have a voice in the way the country is run?

[regnaD kciN]

40. "These people"...

For your information, there are a whole lot of differing viewpoints in the evangelical camp today. The monolithic Religious Right of Falwell's day has come apart, and is splintering more every day. Warren's popularity (as opposed to someone like Pat Robertson or Franklin Graham) is one key piece of evidence of that.

There are some in that community who will always assume the conservative is more Christian. That won't change, no matter how many such forums a Democrat attends (or ducks). But there are others for whom this is not the case, and who will be impressed by Obama reaching out to the community, instead of just assuming (as you obviously do) that "they're all a bunch of ignorant Bible-thumpers." That attitude will cause a lot more of the less-ideological evangelicals to vote Republican than any "liberal" positions a Democrat may take on hot-button issues.

This shit sickens me. :puke:

Your knee-jerk prejudice and Chicken Little attitude sickens me. :puke:

[cliffordu]

6. Well, He didn't have anything to lose, really....

McCain looked great (for McCain), and NO ONE will remember it in a week.

After the conventions, when the debates happen, watch.

Your lack of faith in a candidate with the mad skeelz Obama has is revolting.

[cynatnite]

11. See #10...

Presidential elections are now christianity contests. :(

[RoyGBiv]

18. Do you have any sense of history?

Are you aware of what one of the most contentious issues of the 1960's election was? Do you know how Kennedy faced it?

I know you do know, but why you're ignoring that now I admit I don't understand.

In any case, the reason modern elections seem to be more focused on Christianity is because only in the modern era has it even become a question. In the past, it was simply assumed that candidates for national office were "god fearin'" individuals. Whether they were or not is another issue.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cynatnite]

20. I admire MLK for what he did for this country...

his being a pastor and his religion is secondary to me. He wasn't running for president.

This is a political contest which is supposed to be focused on issues like the war, health care, the economy and so on. Instead, we get a forum on who the better christian is and it's ran by a fucking pastor who raked in millions from a stupid book. Now, you may be okay with that and feel the need to justify it, but I don't.

It was a fucking farce and I'm so disappointed in Obama I could cry.

[RoyGBiv]

22. A fucking farce is your analysis ...

Yet you refused to watch it.

[cynatnite]

25. It's my opinion and you can think what you want about it...

and if I want to torture myself I can watch the farce on youtube. I just hope Obama realizes that putting one's religion front and center does not make for good campaign strategy. It hasn't worked for the repukes for a couple of years now.

[RoyGBiv]

27. It is your opinion ...

Your opinion doesn't have a great deal of historical evidence to support it, however.

How you judge his performance without seeing it is a wonder. I thought we as a thinking people were generally critical of those who criticize without having some knowledge of them. I mean, we do in fact laugh at the loonie religious right-wing nutbags who boycott movies they've never seen or ideas to which they are never exposed except as a part of a sermon delivered by others who shade the information they impart to others with a bias of their own.

I'm sorry to say that strikes me as what you're doing here.

[cynatnite]

30. Let's see...

The repukes lost in 06 because of corruption and the war. Their rants about what good gawd feerin' christians they were didn't help them.

Religion is a losing strategy for the Dems. McCain can spout off the right crap to pander to the RW crowd such as abortion and gay marriage. They'll swallow it. Obama will not bring the evangelicals to his side...at least not enough to make a difference. He can't tell them what they want to hear.

Rick Warren is a self-confessed cultural conservative christian. What sort of people do you think follow him?

[RoyGBiv]

43. Your analysis is wrong ...

Religion played a strong role in the rise of Democrats in 2006, often *in conjunction with* the war issue. Democrats, e.g. Webb, embraced those for whom religion was important by doing such things as decrying the Bush administration as immoral, anti-Christian, etc. in its conduct of governmental affairs and sending kids to die for profit. Others, such as Robert Casey when running against Santorum, agreed with Obama that it is shortsighted to eliminate religion from the public discourse and foolish for Democrats to assume those with strong religious principles do not play an important role in forming public policy.

[RoyGBiv]

26. What you're missing ...

... is that King's Christianity wasn't "secondary" to him or to those who listened to him.

Much of what he was able to do for this country was possible because of his religious ties, the networks involved, and his ability to speak with an air of moral authority that middle-class white America could at least begin to accept.

[cynatnite]

34. oops n/t

[AllentownJake]

48. Obama is a Christian and been saying this since he stepped on the National Stage

and Rick Warren and him are friends. He did this in 2006 with Sam Brownback. I'm sorry you didn't know this about Obama but he's been speaking about his faith since he stepped onto the national scene

The pundits, the pundits like to slice-and-dice our country into Red States and Blue States; Red States for Republicans, Blue States for Democrats. But I’ve got news for them, too. We worship an "awesome God" in the Blue States, and we don’t like federal agents poking around in our libraries in the Red States.

Sorry you haven't been listening to the man talk since 2004.

[RoyGBiv]

21. Yeah, I find that odd myself ...

Someone with a Martin Luther King, Jr. avatar complaining about a candidate speaking to Christians.

[cynatnite]

37. I replied to the wrong post...

I'm not ignoring MLK's christian roots at all. I don't have a problem with it. He wasn't running for public office either.

MLK and Obama are two completely different individuals who are decades and situations apart.

[RoyGBiv]

41. I don't think they're that far apart ...

Or, I should say, I think our politicians would do well to learn some lessons from King and take them to heart.

It's irrelevant that King wasn't running for office. He was "running" for something more important than a simple office, and he was clearly trying to influence those who were in office, much the same way evangelicals today are trying to influence people in office.

Understand there are different "kinds" of evangelicals. The left has demonized evagelicalism every bit as much as the right has demoized Democrats. My mother is a self-identifying evangelical. She doesn't like Republicans, but she is annoyed by Democrats who "pander" to those who deny she has any right to express her somewhat more conservative social opinions.

Democrats at the national level have been so busy running away from religion it has allowed Republicans to capture them as their default party. Obama is trying to change that. At the very least, despite your disdain for him, you could at least acknowledge that.

[hfojvt]

42. Warren isn't running for President either

just trying to influence public policy (and probably make a quick buck).

[alfredo]

8. He did a good job. Also, going first he probably got the bigger audience.

Who would really sit through two hours of that? I'm willing to bet that many people tuned out before or after the first hour. McCain was OK, but seemed to pander and rely on stump speech talking points. Obama's was more like a conversation.

[pointblank]

14. pandering is a great way to describe mccain

:puke:

[alfredo]

28. He came off militaristic too. and from what I've heard, the younger

Evangelicals aren't that sold on war.

[pointblank]

12. He had to confront it

unfortunately... but IMO the decision was the right one (to participate)...if he can convince some of the idiot christians that he is OK, than that is better than none of them.

With that said, I love how mccain is being painted as a "straight shooter" sfter this, becasue he was able to give an absolute answer on abortion...because lets face it, abortion is what it really comes down to with these zealots.

[Pisces]

16. He came off as more Christian and McCain came off as more fundamental.

[johnfunk]

17. Obama PWN3D McCain in every way imaginable

Obama gave smart, detailed and even thought provoking answres.

McCain? Sentence from stump speech talking point talking point sentence from stump speech sentence from stump speech sentence from stump speech talking point talking point ANECDOTE talking point talking point sentence from stump speech sentence from stump speech talking point sentence from stump speech talking point ANECDOTE sentence from stump speech talking point talking point ANECDOTE talking point talking point sentence from stump speech talking point talking point sentence from stump speech sentence from stump speech sentence from stump speech ANECDOTE talking point talking point.

And that equals scripted, stiff, inflexible -- and relying on applause lines to give the illusion of popularity.

ON EDIT: Forgot an ANECDOTE... sorry!

[pointblank]

23. Yes

Good post...anyone with a half a brain should see your point..

Unfortunately, half of this country is playing with less than half a brain...scripted, stump speech responses trigger their salivary voting responses like so many of Pavlov's dogs.

Trying to display detailed, thought provoking intellect gets one relegated to an "elitist asshole" status quicker than you can say "mcsame" in this country...at least where I am from.

[RoyGBiv]

24. I thought so too ...

Much of the complaining came before the thing took place and afterward by people who didn't see it and are getting their information about it largely from others who were predisposed to hate it regardless of what happened and so looked for reasons to trash Obama's performance.

I thought he did incredibly well and that McCain looked about as good as he ever will, which is encouraging because he was only barely competent.

And, he is now on clear record with things such as his absolute determination to overturn Roe. All that can be used against him.

[Nikki Stone1]

29. "This is what happens when religion is put at the top of the list in a presidential campaign."

That's exactly the problem. You hit the nail on the head.

I thought Obama's people were foolish to let him go into this rigged debate, especially with no prepared answers.

[sharesunited]

31. He's still fending off the misconceptions about him as a stealth Muslim.

A forum like this was a gift.

[Nikki Stone1]

36. Huh. That's an interesting way to look at it.

So has he successfully established that he is not a Muslim with the independent voters who have heard the rumors? (Forget about the RW. They believe what they want to believe.)

[yellowdogintexas]

39. yeah but that just emphasizes one more time how totally Obama manages

this kind of situation. He has the same grace under pressure that JFK had, which was one of his greatest assets. Obama would just make McCain look bad.

I would think that people who watched it out of curiosity who weren't already committed to one side or the other came out of it with a more positive impression of Obama. JMHO

[regnaD kciN]

32. That's ridiculous...

Someone's going to come off as 'less than christian'.

And you know what happens when Democrats duck such opportunites? The Republican candidate gets a monopoly of the time appearing on such events, and becomes "the Christian candidate"...and the Democrat becomes the "less than Christian" you so worry about.

And, by the way, it's the height of ignorance to "refuse to watch it" and then speechify about the disastrous effects that will result from what you don't know about, because you refused to see it.

Chicken Little is alive and well at DU, it seems...

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Faygo Kid]

35. "At this rate, I'm not holding out much hope that he's going to win the election." Naive.

I'm moving if McCain "wins."

I'm sure you're too young for this. I was 12. I remember every moment, and every detail. All the best to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDedIQenLWI&feature=related

[woo me with science]

38. I think he did a beautiful job.

Look at the threads on DU. People here were confident, cheering him on, and saying he was doing a fantastic job until McCain started talking and the media types started weighing in. Only then did the nervous ones start to freak out.

Obama was calm and mature and thoughtful, and I think moderates who have only been listening to the Right Wing Scream Machine probably came away reassured.

I agree with the poster above who said that a lot of people probably tuned out after he was finished, not wanting to watch it again with McCain.

I think it was a net plus for him even with the bizarre coverage it's getting.

[RoyGBiv]

45. There is an important point ...

...until McCain started talking and the media types started weighing in. Only then did the nervous ones start to freak out.

As I've said before, for all the gnashing of teeth we do around here about the damnable lies spread by the MSM, a great number of us sure are led by our nose as though it were hooked with the latest and greatest lure and barb.

Obama was doing great ... until someone else told us he wasn't. So that makes his attempt a mistake. What some people refuse to realize is that certain media types are going to contextualize *everything* he does in such a way that it comes off as a mistake.

[SoCalDem]

44. He had to, or he would have been criticized for not going.. This is what's dangerous

about all these religious gangs.. THEY set the tone, and the media laps it up and gives them airtime for their dog & pony shows..

They charged admission...it was a profit-making enterprise.. they should have been CHARGED for 2 hours of media time..

This whole nonsense of "PROVE YOUR FAITH" HAS TO STOP....But the trouble is, it's gone too far for anyone but a very powerful person, to actually stop it..

[Skittles]

46. correct n/t

[AllentownJake]

47. All this concern over a forum

that was purposely scheduled on a Saturday night during the olympics a few days before the VP announcement and 9 days before the convention is making me question some DUers understanding of politics and whether they will make it mentally till election day. The news cycle on this will end on Monday when the VP announcement speculation will resume since it appears that announcement is this week.

1) Religion is not the primary focus of the Obama campaign. His middle name is Hussein and there are lies being told that he is a secret Muslim.
2) By agreeing to appear on the stage with a moderate prominent pastor for an hour Obama helps to get rid of those lies and creates nice videos for the campaign of him talking about his faith
3) Obama committed no major gaffe, made no flip flop on previously held postions, and potrayed himself as a human being to people who are trying to turn him into the anti-christ.

McCain got cheers from people who don't believe in Abortion and Gay Marriage and everyone on here is in panic mode.

[yellowwood]

49. Good Grief!

I am so irritated that our Presidential candidates have to be "vetted" by a religious group! Who is Rick Warren that he should have such prominence? If there is a God (and how would "God" be defined?), Rick Warren doesn't represent Him/Her/It.
I wish that Barack had refused to be put in this situation. Who will want to question him next? Scientologists? Latter Day Saints? Witches?

[Bodhi BloodWave]

51. If Obama wants to be questioned by them

Why shouldn't he do so if i may ask?

From what I've learned Obama *likes* to speak to groups he knows will be hard to convince to his side, he likes to listen to viewpoints that goes against his own. Besides i would say any debate is 'vetting' the candidate, so whats so dangerous about being vetted on his religious views assuming he *wants* the vetting. Just because *you* don't like it does not mean there is a lot more people who would like to know, is there anything that makes your wish to not know more valid then their wish to know?(and no, the separation of church and state is not relevant to this)

Also keep this in mind, Obama spoke to what is considered the republicans base, every single percentage point that is removed from that column on the republican side and put into the democratic column is going to have a much larger effect on them then most other demographics

[moondust]

50. The deck was stacked but he did fine.

All McBombs did was get high on some drugs that made him look awake and memorize his prepared answers in advance so he wouldn't make a lot of gaffes like he usually does. The heavily biased audience would have cheered if he'd taken a crap on stage.

[Skidmore]

52. Oh, hell, yes. Let's put our heads in the sand like the Republicans

and refuse to speak or listen to anyone who doesn't think EXACTLY like we do. What a stupid and short-sighted thing to say! This is exactly the sort of gamesmanship that brought us to the brink we stand on as a nation. Obama understands this. At some point you need to realize that we ALL live on the same planet and need to learn to live together.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

53. The Party Faithful

Those who somehow thing that liberals and christians should be coming together really need to read "The Party Faithful" by Amy Sullivan. Sullivan was responsible for outreach to faith groups for the Kerry Campaign (which was a train wreck in that regard) and she's now Director of the Matthew 25 Network, a christian PAC that is now running pro-Obama spots on the radio in battleground states.

Sullivan's belief -- as has be stated by Roygbiv up thread, is that we're in an era when "Big Evangelism" is coming apart, in some measure because its leaders sold their soul to the Republican Party and many evangelicals consider caring for the poor and protecting creation as at least important as abortion and gay marriage.

If we can speak to evangelicals in their language (and on their turf) we have a good chance of peeling away at least a portion of these voters. We're not going to get them all, but in an election that might be decided by less than one percent of the voters, even small amounts are important.

Added Benefit: It makes the Republicans spend resources to reach a voting bloc that used to be a slam dunk.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

54. On my local news they played the clip of Obama saying that marriage is between one man and one woman

When is this religious pandering going to stop? Not just Obama, EVERYONE!!!!!Q

[Gman]

55. Obama didn't lose one vote by participating

I don't think he was there to pick up votes from the audience. I think the purpose was to portray an image of talking and listening to all points of view. If so, he succeeded.

[Lars39]

56. It's pandering.

Why can't the religious people pull their heads out of their asses like the rest of us and study his platform? Instead they have to be reasured and validated in their beliefs that try to tamper with everyone's basic human rights. :grr:

[smoogatz]

57. Give him credit for trying.

There are lots of undecideds among evangelicals this time out, and it's possible he may have picked up a few votes. He has nothing to lose by trying. Now, in the interest of fairness, the next joint appearance between Obama and McCain should be in New Orleans' lower 9th ward, and the topic chould be poverty and racism in the U.S.

[AngryOldDem]

58. I agree there was no way he could "win" in that fourm...

...but most if not all knew that going in. But how much better would it have appeared had he turned down the appearance?

I don't think it will hurt him as badly as you think. With most of the Christian right only concerned about abortion anyway, Obama could have talked about the war and economy all day long and it wouldn't have made a difference. Most of us out here recognize that.

McCain played to his base. But that doesn't make him any more qualified or prove his strength as a leader. It's easy to look presidential when you're in front of your cheering section.