The biggest challenge of all - changing minds of the brainwashed

[NRaleighLiberal]

After another morning spin through DU and TPM, and a read of my local paper and the NYT, I once again come to this conclusion: there is "some" (not nearly enough) true, investigative, factual reporting going on (the story about John Stewart, the column by Frank Rick, and of course many of the illuminating posts and references here). But....as Bill Moyer once said, for many people, their own personal belief system trumps facts most every time - particularly those that are into the authoritative model type of thing (either as authoritarians - the wielders - or the authoritarianees - the sheeple).

So, we have different levels of activism - we read here and there, we learn, we go out and talk to our friends, we work for news organizations or blogs or campaigns, we make phone calls, we write editorials to newspapers - but either we end up preaching to the choir, or we butt against people's belief systems - hence we have a coming election that should be a landslide for Obama just based upon the McBush model of another term of failures....but it just isn't playing out that way.

Are we banging our heads up against a wall? Do we just have to let this mindless sheeple stage wash itself out of the population? Will it take some truly major catastrophe to wake them out of their stupor?

I will retain hope, but it comes wrapped in a big time dose of reality and frustration. How do others see this playing out? How to break through the barriers of ignorance, stupidity and stubbornness?

[Philosoraptor]

1. No kidding, that's quite the task.

[fascisthunter]

2. Experiences also Help Mold Our Personal Views

It's the reason why some are not voting Republican this time. They need to live through an experience before they can see through propaganda..

[grannie4peace]

3. it's impossible

i think it is impossible to help the people who have been brainwashed...unless they want to be freed

[hootinholler]

4. I don't think it's impossible...

I do think it takes incredible patience and humility. The path I'm trying is getting them to examine their own though processes, coaxing logic into the conversation. They have to be somewhat receptive, and willing to accept what they've been told are lies. Once that light bulb turns on, watch out.

-Hoot

[flamingdem]

5. Recommending this because we must take action

It's not healthy to write illuminating articles and discuss with the like minded. We need to take risks and talk to the people we meet on the street, get organizing skills, spend even just a few hours at a phone bank or helping to register new voters.

It's not okay to feel impotent in the face of a very scary future possibility of another neocon president.

[NRaleighLiberal]

6. Well said. I totally agree. NT

[lonestarnot]

7. We will never accomplish a breakthrough on these tings.

They would not change their minds even if they were being waterboarded by McSame as part of an exorcism.

[flamingdem]

8. Disagree - it's a skill to show someone what is in their best interest convincingly nt

[lonestarnot]

12. Show show show, by all means show. Lead that horse to water all fucking day, but you cannot under

any circumstances make it drink one damn drop.

[flamingdem]

27. Tell me what you have done to register voters etc. - that would be instructive nt

[lonestarnot]

46. Registered people at the State Fair, downtown drive, and at a Mexican fair.

[City Lights]

22. I know someone who worships at the alter of Fox Nooze.

When I've pointed out their lies, distortions, misstatements, etc., she's refused to believe it. One example - she refused to believe that the 1993 WTC bombers were prosecuted by Clinton. Since she didn't hear it on Fox, it never happened. She still holds Clinton responsible for 9-11 because he didn't do anything after the 1993 bombing or after the USS Cole bombing. She's blissful in her ignorance and nothing I say or do will change her mind. Any source not from Fox is dismissed as the liberal media. :puke:

In another example, my aunt refuses to believe Snopes because in her mind, it's just another opinion. Verified sources are meaningless.

Some people really do live in an alternate reality and are beyond hope. They live by two absolute truths: Republicans are good; Democrats are bad. They don't need to know anything else.

[flamingdem]

28. So who cares about her? There are millions of low info or poor voters who WOULD vote Obama

If WE do the work. I'm beginning to think DU is full of armchair dems who don't do any work for Obama, and just complain.

[City Lights]

34. She's one of the people you referred to in post #8. nt

[2Design]

13. that does seem to be the truth - when I see or hear someone for mcsame n/t

[The2ndWheel]

9. When everyone finally thinks the same way about everything

that's when we'll be free...or, completely brainwashed. I always mix those up.

[NoodleyAppendage]

10. The only way to sway people given to "black and white" thinking is to SCARE THE SH*T out of them.

Reasoned arguments and appealing to their "better natures" WILL NEVER WORK. The ONLY way to sway and lead those who think in "black and white" terms is to scare the crap out of them and make an enemy (real or imagined) that would be the supposed opposite of the persons you are leading. This is the Repuke playbook...and the playbook of tyrants throughout history.

J

[Donald Ian Rankin]

24. No, I disagree - it's comforting to assume that people who disagree must be "brainwashed"

But it's not accurate, and hence not helpful.

What is needed is to convince other people, who have minds and political views of their own, formed from their own assessment of the world around them, that they are wrong.

[NRaleighLiberal]

25. For many of them, fear or ego prevents them from ever admitting they are wrong - hence the challenge

[Donald Ian Rankin]

26. That's true for everyone, to some extent.

Certainly it's true for me, and frankly if you claim it's not true for you I won't believe it.

But it's nothing to do with being "brainwashed".

[NRaleighLiberal]

32. I will not admit to being fearful - just not one of my traits. As for ego -

I certainly do hold to my beliefs on occasion, but have quite often changed my mind or admitted to being wrong - conceit/ego to me is just not a particularly admirable trait, and I fight it in myself when it crops up as best I can. It is the very anti-intellectualism and mistrust of science that I find so repugnant in much of the right.

[NoodleyAppendage]

37. You have your views, but mine are supported by HISTORY.

Please bone up on your world history...starting with the end of the Roman Republic.

J

[flamingdem]

29. Please go to an Obama house party and ask to get training in activism, it is a SKILL nt

[2Design]

11. poll this morning somewhere on who was best for the economy and people put mcsame ...

this is idiots who have lived through a repub who got us in this mess and they pick mcsame - so ignorance is rampant and I don't see how it will change - no matter what happens - if a dem gets in and this mess comes crashing down - it will be blamed on the dems - it is bad - the fed will raise interest rates fast and cause the crash faster - there does not seem to be a way out of this mess that is good for intelligent people - go figure

[BrklynLiberal]

14. It is the WILLFUL ignorance that is so irksome. Those people are PROUD of their ignorance

and fight to maintain it.
Those are the people that it would seem the most difficult, if not impossible, to reason with.
Their ignorance borders on absolute evil.

[MJW]

15. it is genetic, some

people are just wired that way, but there are others who have just never had another way of thinking explained to them . These are the ones we should seek out.

[trashcanistanista]

16. It is definitely not going to be easy despite what a no brainer

it seems to us. My best advice - persevere. Get out everyday and do something to get Obama and other dems elected. Prepare one liners for the fundies in your life the night before. Be polite. Get them to come to you for info. Win their trust. Be respectful and calm even though you are shaking inside. It can be done. Obama is a good role model in that respect.

[Breeze54]

17. How to break through the barriers?

"How to break through the barriers of ignorance, stupidity and stubbornness?"

Feet on the ground, knocking on doors, explaining how a RW vote will hurt their pocketbooks!

[trashcanistanista]

20. Exactly. Everyone is hurting now.

We have a bad economy in our favor. Milk it.

[seabeyond]

18. i spent 2003 and 2004 talking to people in htis area in straight talk. facts vs opinion

the obvious in your face. and there is no shift. at all. with the obvious.

i let it go.

doesnt work

[trashcanistanista]

21. Me too, but 2008 is different. It s changing.

Please, try again. You may be pleasantly surprised.

[seabeyond]

23. my smart reasonable father in guilt using religion, a friends of decades messed up life using relig

last month i asked both for connected reasons dont you see the damage the christian coalition has done to this country the last decade. the hate and division they have caused in this nation. (this is all pretty obvious to me, hence didnt think it would eb a tough one and enable us to go into further conversation once they acknowledged.)

both gave thought, both said, .... no, no i dont see that

cant even get past that, how do we get to the nitty gritty

[City Lights]

19. Agreed. In addition to the brainwashed, there's the apathetic.

If the last 8 years of hell haven't awakened the apathetic, I don't know what will. :-(

[flamingdem]

30. Who on this thread is actually out there pounding the pavement to get voters for Obama??????????????

Get away from the keyboard and change someones mind, with a negative mindset you will not achieve anything, check out the young people who are working 12 hour days on the campaign and get inspired!

[Breeze54]

35. Not me....

:hi:

[dysfunctional press]

31. ummmm...are you talking about politics or religion?

:shrug:

[NRaleighLiberal]

33. Yes! NT

[dysfunctional press]

43. that's what i thought.

:hi:

[CrispyQ]

36. It's not that they're brainwashed, it's that they have a different world view.

Have you read George Lakoff's "Don't Think of an Elephant" or "The Political Mind"? He explains conservative & liberal world views with a family analogy.

Conservatives are authoritarian based -- the father rules, strictly, harshly & with severe punishment. There are no questions asked. Moral people do as they're told & consequently, will be successful. Therefore, those who are not successful are not moral because they didn't do as they were told. Their very nature is to not question authority. This is what you must break through -- questioning authority & good luck with it!

Liberals are nutritive -- they encourage questioning & evaluating what their told.

This is a very simplistic overview of the two books, but you get the drift. Very good reading, which I highly recommend.

Here's the thread discussing the book in the non-fiction forum.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=209&topic_id=806

on edit: spelling

[Greyhound]

38. What is brainwashing, if not imposing a "world view" on another's mind?

Religion is the basis for all of this. It conditions the completely blank newborn mind to accept the fantastic, not matter how illogical, as the "truth". When a mind cannot distinguish the real from the fictitious, we call it hallucination, when the mind insists that the fantasy is real contrary to all evidence, we call it delusion.

Except for religion.

[CrispyQ]

39. Your point is well taken.

:hi:

[Psyop Samurai]

40. It will take unimaginable catastrophe.

The evidence for that has been decisive for several years.

The mind control matrix, while pervasive beyond Orwell's dreams, is also about a millimeter thin and getting thinner. Doesn't matter.

People have made their choice (actually, I suspect most had made it by the 3rd grade), and our fate is bound to that of a zombie suicide cult.

I realize how dire that sounds, and I hesitate to mention it, as I have no desire to dissuade attempts by others (even those operating in an insane fantasy) which carry the potential to truly ameliorate the situation. But it is an honest answer to your question.

As for "how to break through", I believe the trick will be to consciously anchor truth between generations (which is precisely what the controllers have done with manipulative falsehood). Those with the vision and means must somehow lay the groundwork for this inter-generational approach, and must do so in the face of nearly universal denial.

Why "inter-generational"? Because once you've "done the numbers", and I mean truly done them, you realize that the phases and finitude of lifespan has been very much to the controllers' benefit. It's one of the main things that enables them to run the same scams over and over.
___________
edit to add:

Petty, ego-based consciousness, as you observed upthread, is the obstacle of all time. Nothing can be substantially addressed without confronting that reality. We face a profound psycho-spiritual crisis, not a lack of information.

[NRaleighLiberal]

41. Very well said, and, sadly, I agree completely. NT

[mmonk]

42. Catastrophe has already hit. It has been dressed up

to alter appearances. I hold little hope for I haven't seen courage in enough elected officials to reveal the truth.

[YvonneCa]

44. This is the question I asked myself on November 3, 2004...

...and ever since. My answer has been one-on-one, people to people communication over the long term.

The country has been divided...on purpose (thanks Karl R.) for political reasons. The sides don't trust each other...at all, in some cases. They get their information from different sources, and some of those sources were 'catapulting the propaganda' rather than reporting news. Some people couldn't tell the difference...especially older Americans, used to 3 networks for news they could trust. People's trust was used. People's religious beliefs were used. People's patriotism after 9/11 was used. Once you become aware of it(and not everyone has yet) you don't want to believe it. That's the bad news.

The good news :) is there is a lot of agreement on certain issues...once people actually start to communicate again. We have an 'almost President' who communicates well, and understands the need for unity. I think he also knows about the betrayal of people and has the skills to rebuild that trust. AND we have a great country...with good people and good values...who want very much to be united. And, we have free speech...we are free to bring issues up for discussion. Since 2004, I talk to my family, email articles...whatever I can to discuss issues. And we usually end up agreeing on more than one would think. Even when we don't agree, we build common understanding.

What has been lacking is leadership, but that is about to change (IMO). So, instead of head-banging :7 I hope we will continue to work hard to make that change in this election. But then we can't stop...because I think the way to real change is to continue that communication...among friends, among family, wherever you have a chance to discuss issues...get out there and do it!



:patriot:

[Cleita]

45. I'm more worried about getting a veto proof Democratic Congress just

in case McCain becomes our next President.