Dating advice from assholes: "Stop treating women well"

[ccharles000]

Today the Washington Post covers a new book with the earth-shattering thesis that, if women want to "keep a man" they should start scrubbing floors in lingerie, learning to cook steaks to order, and giving blowjobs in between.



Is that cover condescending or what? And that's not even getting into the content of the book...

Moore's slim treatise purports to explain how women should go about sex, relationships and marriage -- according to men. Here is his mission as a self-described reeducator: "I want to express my anger and frustration as a man with the women I feel are miseducated, misinformed, and ill-prepared about their responsibilities in getting and maintaining a relationship with a man of quality," he writes in the introduction.
Moore, of course, considers himself just such a man. Read his book, ladies, and you can snag a catch just like him. Your responsibilities include cooking, staying skinny, wearing sexy things around the house and doing whatever your man tells you to do (because, Moore writes, "Here's a little secret, ladies: men never really ask for anything. They command. . . . And believe me, what you won't do, ten broads around the corner will.")


Ugh. The sad part is, he's found this method successful:

Moore's girlfriend, Khanequa Tuitt, who's at the book-signing, recalls that when she first read his manuscript, she only got past the first couple of pages before calling him to curse him out. But now she's come to terms with his views. She's started "trying to stay away from wearing frumpy, flannel stuff," even when she's cleaning, for example.
Moore also keeps it classy with a "no fatties" message:

In his book, size matters -- a lot: "The fatter you get, the more you decrease your potential single-man pool. Let me give you an example. When you go to the grocery store to shop, do you pick out the nastiest-looking, most rotten, smelliest fruit or meat you can find? Oh, you don't? Why not? . . . It's the same with men when they see baby elephant-sized, out-of-shape women."
The interesting thing is that (as you may have noticed from the cover above), the book is "presented by" Zane, a best-selling writer of black erotica. (As M.Dot at Model Minority writes today, "Zane sells because her fiction allows Black women to be sexual in a culture that refuses to acknowledge that we are sexual, a culture that calls us ho's if are so inclined to be sexual, talk about sex, or even look like we are human and have a sexual appetite.") But Zane says her name on the book is not an endorsement -- it's a warning: "There are some men who feel exactly like he does. I feel like women should be forewarned and realize what's out there."

http://www.feministing.com/archives/010680.html

[Captain Hilts]

1. Thank god we live in a post-sexist society!!

Gee! I wonder if this strategy would work with black Americans? You know, ask them to park your car, do your gardening...

I can't believe this shit. But I've no doubt some folks are socialized to think this is right and 'normal'.

[ba5500]

100. RE:

"But I've no doubt some folks are socialized to think this is right and 'normal'."

Sad but true

[MaraJade]

121. Really?

Women STILL don't make the money that men do, they are still the major losers in every life situation
and they are deemed unworthy for the highest office of the land.

Post-sexist? I don't think so.

Another hundred years from now, maybe. After all, it took over 400 years to get a Black MAN selected
to be potential POTUS. BIG maybe on women. My greatgrandchildren may see this particular
CHANGE in our society, but we will not see equal and fair treatment for women in our lifetimes. After all
everyone knows that any woman is not worth anything after age 30, when her worth as a sexual object drops.
After all, women who try to succeed are B@#$%s and C%^^s and need to remember their places, at least for the
next 50 to 100 years.

[Quantess]

140. Median income for fulltime workers: males vs. females in WA (Washington state),

I recently read were about 53,000 for male, full time workers and 37,000 for female, full time workers. I read that statistic in The Oregonian yesterday. But I don't remember the median figures exactly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male-female_income_disparity_in_the_United_States

[cobalt1999]

2. What's the copyright date on that book...1935?

[panader0]

8. Did women give blowjobs in1935?

[Der Blaue Engel]

14. No, it's new. I invented it. n/t

[Luna_C_06]

72. You made me actually lol. nt.

[cobalt1999]

19. No, that's why it was called the "Great Depression".

No work and no blowjobs would make any man depressed.

[sarcasmo]

83. They sure don't now, Great question, LMFAO.

[lunatica]

91. I saw the history of sex on cable

And no matter how far back they looked, blow jobs were done. So was every other form of sex. As a matter of fact we don't do anything new that wasn't done in all of history. The Marquis de Sade wrote porn for a living. And it describes every possible sexual fantasy there is, short of the Dommer type of murdering.

[seabeyond]

229. it is like every teenager or twenty something think they are the provacative

it is funny. i watch my niece and her crowd and it is a huge, get over yourself

[ba5500]

95. RE:

Who knows?

[ba5500]

96. RE: What's the copyright date on that book...1935?

With all the s*it going on today, I wouldn't be surprised if it was written at this time.

[YOY]

3. What is this a guide to? How to bag an asshole?

You know what turns me on? Independent women with healthy sex drives. Call me a heretic.

[file83]

114. Yes - and here is the MUSIC VIDEO promoting the book...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqXi8WmQ_WM

:rofl::cry::rofl:

[CrownPrinceBandar]

194. That's hilarious!..........

"Regular Everyday Normal Guy" is still my favorite, but this is a real close second.

[ixion]

4. women will deny it, but they really loathe 'nice guys'...

being a nice guy, I've been able to witness this first hand. The most beautiful women seem to be attracted to the worst type of male.

I've always seen it as a biological survival imperative. That is, in their hard-wiring, women think a mean guy (read: aggressive) will be a better provider.

I could be wrong, but that's been my experience.

[The Straight Story]

6. I duuno, I am a nice guy and managed to do ok in the finding a mate department

Of course, not sure my wife would always agree on the 'nice guy' part :rofl:

[DeltaLitProf]

137. Gracious sakes

She's a looker. But she also looks like she'd kick your ass if you tried any of that retrograde stuff out on her.

[Der Blaue Engel]

9. Two problems with your theory:

1. It's an excuse some men use to be complete dicks and be proud of it.

2. A lot of men think they're "nice guys."

[lumberjack_jeff]

90. It's not an excuse. It's a reason.

To a large degree, boys are behavior-trained by the girls to whom they are attracted.

The conventional wisdom in this area is both consistent with my experience as well as those of millions of other men.

Whether I'm a nice guy today is immaterial. At one time, I was. It honestly didn't work out very well. I'm less nice today. Frankly, the process of boundary-setting is equally important for both genders.

I see it as like a curve. As one acquiesces to their partners desires, the relationship improves... to a point. At some point, the partner begins to expect more and more, and missing those expectations harms the relationship. "You didn't make the bed. Again. It's the same crap, every day... bla bla bla."

When it gets to that point, it's important to reset expectations.

Me? I find that incomplete dick is the point at which equilibrium is reached.

[Pithlet]

101. You may indeed be less nice today

But that is not because of some general condition of women everywhere. It may be because of the women you yourself have come in contact with, that you yourself selected to come in contact with. It's ludicrous to then say that generally speaking, women prefer men who are jerks because of that. You would have had to personally come into contact with millions of women to make this statement. Millions of other men may indeed say this as well, but remember, millions of men have also beat their wives. Millions of other men have committed rape. Millions of men have committed robbery. To be fair, millions of women say that men are nothing but cheating, lying pigs interested in sex with bimbos, and are lying when they say they're interested in a nice woman with a brain and a personality. But, clearly, they are wrong, because I saw at least two men declare that they are interested in smart women with a personality. Sexist generalizations, usually backed up by spurious logic "Hey, I get laid now that I'm a jerk, so it must work!" aren't scientific in the least, no matter the gender of the person making the claim.

[lumberjack_jeff]

122. Men are only boys who have developed behavior by observing what girls want.

Boys model behavior which girls reward with attention. Those for whom this behavior comes naturally have those natural behaviors reinforced. Those among that group who avoid jail become CEO's.

To say that all women find a single set of traits desirable is flawed. To say that enough of them find the aggressive/dominating/authoritative/narcissistic personality desirable to statistically influence male behavior is not.

I've been married for 25 years to my high school sweetheart. I don't have a wealth of first hand knowledge except to the extent that setting boundaries with my wife, when I am generally predisposed to simply acquiesce, earns respect.

Relationships aren't science. For most "nice guys", what feels like being an asshole is perceived by potential mates as having a personality.

[Pithlet]

125. That's what works for you in your relationship. Great.

You're projecting, however, when you say that that is how it works for everyone else. People come in all flavors. That's basically what it comes down to. Your wife lets you treat her that way, and she apparently likes it. Good for her. It seems to work for you, too. Wouldn't work for me or mine in a million years. We approach our relationship much differently, and it works for us. I do think that if you truly see yourself as less of a nice person than you once were, then maybe there are some self esteem issues, but hey, if you're cool with it, and everything's swimming along, then maybe if it's not broke, don't fix it. Did it ever occur to you that you've always just been attracted to women like your wife, so over time you just kind of amended your personality to attract women like her? And that maybe that's true for a lot of other men like you as well? Who knows. Human beings are awfully complex. But, coming into threads like these, and generalizing all women like that, just because your wife is like that, and other women in your past that you chose to associate with were like that? It seems almost as if you're validating that awful viewpoint. I knew that "But, chicks dig jerks!" was going to show up in this thread. It was as predictable as the the sun coming up in the morning. It's as if we're not half of the vast and complex human population.

[lumberjack_jeff]

153. In fact self esteem is the key issue.

If you hold yourself in sufficient esteem, your attitudes toward your SO are different than if you think your inherent value is tied to your place in that relationship.

Many men like women who carry themselves with confidence. Unfortunately, the woman with the highest degree of confidence and self-esteem will be the one who has complete disregard for him. In the interest of survival of her kids, women have a biological predisposition to be attracted to alpha males.

Where "many" men want women who carry themselves with confidence, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that most if not all women want men who do, and that has a biological basis.

Valuing your partners wellbeing above your own may be sweet, but it's the opposite of self-esteem.

[Quantess]

156. That's really interesting, but I was apart from all of that, as a teenager.

As a teen, I was pretty, but I was too afraid to interact with others.
So what? Get over it! It's been pointed out before, don't base your life on High School.

As for meeting young lovelies: I suppose an equilibrium is reached, where deceptively bitter male meets deceptively bitter female, and there is an instant connection.

[Quantess]

166. And, at one time, I was a nice "girl"/ "woman". Yawn.

I lived one street away from Capp Street, in San Francisco, which was hooker-central in the mid 90s. I was a college student, with a boyfriend and a dog. It didn't seem to matter whether I was carrying a large stack of books, or walking my dog with my boyfriend...ARE YOU A HOOKER? "No, I'm not a prostitute", while flipping the bird.

[Marr]

106. HAHA... oh, that is so true.

While I have to say that I think there's some truth to the statement that you will get *laid* more often if you act like a jerk, you're not going to be with women you'd actually want to be around for long.

On top of that... I think you're right with your second point. We all think we're nice people. I had an epiphany around my 33rd birthday that I'm not quite the nice guy I'd always assumed I was. That's a tough realization. Right up there with "my parents are just people" and "I'm going to die someday".

[Kitty Herder]

126. You make a good point that a lot of men only think they're nice guys.

Like my ex. And he does come across that way at first. I was taken in by his nice guy act.

But once you get to know him, you find that he's a control freak, a compulsive liar and a spoiled brat who thinks "his woman" should spoil him like his mommy did. Oh, and he's a Republican.

Of course, he thinks of himself as a nice guy and that women keep dumping him because they don't like nice guys. What really happens is that we dump him when we find out he's NOT nice.

[azmouse]

10. 'Beautiful' is in the eye of the beholder.

If you look around you'll find many, many women who are wonderful, intelligent and, Yes! very attractive, and they want a man who is intelligent, kind, and treats them well.

I've never 'loathed' the nice guys. Those are the best ones!

[Withywindle]

11. You said it yourself: "the most beautiful women"

Have you considered that you yourself are ignoring lots of average-looking women who might be smarter and saner than the ones you insist go after the bad boys?

[ixion]

29. there's more to looks than physical appearance

in fact, I care far more for brains than physical beauty.

[liberalhistorian]

16. Hubby's a super-nice guy

and I was immediately attracted to him. Yes, some women are into the whole "bad boy" bullshit, but usually when they're much younger; then they grow up, get some life experience and realize what an idiot they've been.

The reverse is also true, though. Many a time I've seen some really nice, caring, quality women get thrown over for complete and total bitches. The men will complain about what a bitch their wife/SO is, but, when they broke up, ignore the nice, quality women right in front of them and go again for the bitches. Drove me crazy when I was single.

[Matariki]

18. Yes. You're wrong. Way off the mark.

It's a myth guys tell to themselves to explain their own problems with women. One of the biggest problems being an honest assessment of THEIR OWN looks in relation to the women they seem to think are the only ones 'worthy' of them.

I could go on, but it's all be said before.

[ixion]

30. simply relating my perceptions

which I still hold to be valid, but thanks.

[Matariki]

65. Yes. I KNOW those are your perceptions. They sure aren't FACTS

You should rethink your perceptions and look at why you might hold such an erroneous opinion. Because, although 'men like you' may deny it, women don't all think alike. Nor do the majority of women, 'beautiful ones' included, particularly like 'assholes'.

[ixion]

75. I would be happy to quantify the statement...

hence, not ALL women, but apparently the type of woman I've been attracted to over the years. So, in that sense, they are indeed as factual as anything relating to the human condition.

[Leftist Agitator]

111. delete

[lukasahero]

21. Ah yes, the self-proclaimed nice guy whining about how the "most beautiful women"

don't like him.

Newsflash, if you're not a woman, try not to tell us what we think, ok? That just might be where you're going wrong with all those "beautiful women" who choose someone other than you.

[ixion]

26. uh, I don't tell women what to think

and beauty is more than skin deep, IMO. :)

[lukasahero]

50. Not what "to" think, what we "do" think

You just told everyone here that "women will deny it but they really loathe nice guys" - i.e. - regardless of what women say, "you" know what we really think.

As you can probably tell by now from the numerous responses to your post, you're incorrect on this one. Women are telling you something. Are you open to listening?

[ixion]

53. lol...I'm always willing to listen

what I'll believe, however, is another matter. Just like you, I have a mind of my own, and have spent many years trying to improve that mind. So, as I said, I'll always listen. :)

I expected to be flamed when I made the post. No great shock there.

[lukasahero]

55. That's ok, you go on believing you know better

Listen to women but don't believe them. That'll certainly help out in the dating department. Whatever...

[Dogtown]

27. Dang!

Nailed that one!

:applause:

[Fumesucker]

22. I'm aware of the effect you describe but I have a bit of a different theory as to why..

Nice guys will automatically assume that any attractive (not just physically) woman is already taken and do not make aggressive moves on them.

Jerks on the other hand will make a move on any woman they see that interests them.

Basically, those who ask for the most get the most. This is true in everything, not just romance.

There is a way to make this work for you though.. Befriend some good looking, smooth jerk that goes through attractive women at a great rate and pick up on the discards. I came upon this ploy by accident nearly thirty five years ago and didn't have a clue what was going on at the time but have figured it out over the years.

It worked insanely well for me, we celebrated our thirtieth anniversary last June and, at fifty, my wife is still a GILF. If you know what MILF means, you can figure it out.

Here she is with our youngest grandchild about four years ago. (this is just a pic I happened to have on my HD)

[Dogtown]

24. Hint, ixion:

Find a woman of more substance. The females that want to be abused are damaged to begin with. If you scored with one, consider the baggage you'd have to manage.


Really, guy, you're looking in the wrong places. There are intelligent, non-neurotic women out there.

[ixion]

31. yeah, I'm old now, and have since stopped looking

although I always preferred intelligent women when I was dating.

[distantearlywarning]

25. Wrong. I married a nice guy.

And I've always been accounted to be pretty good-looking by guys. At least I had no problems getting dates when I was single.

[raccoon]

28. I suggest you read the book WOMEN WHO LOVE TOO MUCH by

Robin Norwood. There are mucho women out there from dysfunctional backgrounds who are attracted to a-holes. I'm referring to guys who are physically and/or verbal abusers, and/or substance abusers.

[Odin2005]

62. IIRC psychologists call it "dependent personailty disorder" n/t.

That's right, the "submissiveness" the sexists want is actually a mental illness!!!

[undergroundpanther]

134. He wants VICTIMS

He wants women that tolerate being abused. Abused girls if not helped will grow up thinking abuse is a NORMAL relationship.They will tolerate things non-abused, non-survivor people would never tolerate because they've been CONDITIONED by abusers and do not realize what is hurting them because they have had no way to compare a healthy VS abusive relationship..
Dependancy disorder isn't what abused women suffer from,when they fall for an abuser.It is conditioning.

No abuser says on the first date I want to beat you up every Friday night drunk off my ass and command you and control every aspect of your life and make you suck my skanky dick whenever I demand it.

No one woulkd date a piece of shit who says that on the first date unless they were CONDITIONED by previous abuse to accept it.

NO, they charm the woman they FAKE her OUT about who he really is until he has alienated her family all her friends.Destroyed her self esteem ,and made it almost impossible financially,with children, or other wise for her to leave him,this is why there are shelters for abused women.

Tolerating an abuser as a mate is a gradual generational conditioning process perpetrated by sexist psychopath males..and sometimes psychopath females.
Psychopathy is the problem and our culture is too tolerant of psychopathic behaviors.

[Quantess]

165. Sadly, true.

We ask women to be strong, and hold their own.

But sadly, many cultures do not ask that men be held accountable for their actions toward women. So why does the USA suddenly have to?

[ba5500]

97. RE:

Some strange people they are.

[Warpy]

32. Maybe you're not as nice a guy as you think you are.

It seems you're focusing only on trophy women and ignoring the nice women out there who might not fit standards of female perfection.

Besides, once you get out of your 20s, you'll look around at all those trophy women and find that a few married money and the rest married the nice guys.

[ixion]

45. lol... I was never interested in trophy women...

but I'm in my 40's now, and really don't date anymore, so it's sort of a moot point. :)

[Matariki]

66. Just curious - are you married or partnered with someone?

If so, are you a 'nice guy'?

If not, is that the source of your bitterness toward women?

[ixion]

74. I'm single...haven't dated in years...

I do consider myself a good person, although I'll admit that I become absorbed by my work and can come off as indifferent.

I'm not really bitter towards women, in particular. I am, however, bitter about humanity, in general. I don't think we're all that we think we are. :)

[morgan2]

33. people think its about being nice/mean

its about coming off as desperate if you're too nice, to someone you don't even know. People with low social standing tend to be overly nice to the opposite sex, and it comes off as desperation. Women with options would rather have someone who they feel likes them, not any woman who walks their way. And yes there is a difference between being a gentleman and being desperate, you don't have to be mean to come across as someone to be desired(although in many cases being a little mean can work, especially with those who are used to being treated with kid gloves).

[JackDragna]

34. Oh, just stop it.

I used to be one of those "nice guys" who complained about women and their unreal expectations. Are there women who spend inordinate amounts of time with dumb, aggressive men? Sure. What I've found, however, are the majority of self-identified "nice guys" are men who fall into one of several categories, sometimes more than one:

1. They make no effort, period, to talk to women.
2. Their personal hygeine and appearance leaves much to be desired.
3. They have crap personalities and social tics they refuse to acknowledge or control, such as having a limited list of things they can talk about, a flat or overly bizarre demeanor, and so on.

I get the feeling sometimes that the "nice guys" of the world expect women to be like the females in Disney movies. You know how it seems to work..the clumsy, nerdy guy is discovered by the gorgeous woman to be so deep and have so much inside! If only the women could just see through that scab on the surface, they'd find the gold underneath. And that's fine, to an extent: not everyone can be a social gadfly. At the same time, nobody should expect women to go all-out to find the "real person" inside men if men make no effort to present themselves as mildly interesting.

The moral of the story is this: I went from being a "nice guy" who made no effort to get along with women, who assumed things would just naturally click and it'd be taken care of for me. I finally wised up, became more of a risk-taker and did much better.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

38. Jack Dragna speaks the truth!

Jack, maybe YOU should write a book to straighten out these self-pitying whining "nice guys."

[ixion]

47. self-pitying and whining?

geez. :eyes:

I'll be sure and not be nice to you. :rofl:

[JackDragna]

102. I would, but..

..there's little market for the truth.

[Matariki]

68. Not to mention the fact that they rarely seem interested in whether they have anything in common

with the target of their attentions.

I don't know how many 'nice guys' have bored the crap out of me because we have absolutely NOTHING in common. Stuff we read (if they even *do* read), movies, art (art?!), religion, kinkiness - anything. And their persistence in trying to date me was confusing at best. It certainly didn't make me think they were interested in my personality. And I sure as hell wasn't interested in theirs.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

35. Oh boy, here we go again

What makes you think the most beautiful women are the most desirable mates, as opposed to fantasy objects?

And just what makes you a "nice guy"?

[kestrel91316]

36. Self-respecting women with brains (who use them)

won't go out twice with assholes like this guy. If he gets a bimbo who will cater to his every whim that's fine with me. Bimbos aren't my competition anyway, lol.

[riverdeep]

59. See, the jerks don't care about those women, though.

They know that a whole lot of women will be turned off by their behavior, but that still leaves plenty of women who'll take it. That's what they count on, the odds.

[Demobrat]

37. Women like nice guys just fine.

What they don't like is passive aggression. You know, the ones who pretend to "let" us make all the decisions, give us no input other than "anything you want honey" and then complain about whatever we decide. Here's a clue: When a woman says a guy is "too nice" what she means is "He's a passive aggressive asshole". Just sayin'.

[XemaSab]

159. .

:thumbsup:

[Kitty Herder]

167. Ain't that the truth.

I was thinking of posting something similar. These self-proclaimed "nice guys" are frequently passive-aggressive jerks once you get to know them. I've had the experience of dating a guy who seemed so "nice," but was a passive-aggressive asshole once I got to know him.

His ex-wife said the same thing when she and I met. It's too bad I didn't meet her before-hand.

And he was always complaining that women don't like nice guys. Hmm... If he's a representative sample of "nice guys," then, no, we don't.

[KansDem]

39. I agree. I'm a "nice guy," And I found myself coming in last many times.

But then, I'm lazy too...

[Truth4Justice]

40. No you are correct, with exceptions. I never bagged a woman until I learned that secret.

sorry ladies but there is some truth to this. Women don't like wimps.

[tkmorris]

58. Ahh, but you are redefining "nice" guys

What he calls "nice" guys, you call "wimps". You are on to something there. A lot of guys perceive themselves as "nice", and believe that "nice" doesn't attract women, since in their experience it doesn't. To me the issue is that those guys who perceive themselves as the "nice" guys come off as lacking self confidence and THAT will turn away a lot of females.

The guys that other men think of as jerks may be just that, but they don't lack in confidence and THAT is what women are responding to, not their boorish behavior. If the nice guys out there can learn to be outgoing and confident while remaining sensitive and caring they will have a lot more success.

Oh and one last thing. The decent guys have a responsibility to confront assholes like the one who wrote the book in the OP whenever possible. When they act like this they are attempting to claim a higher spot on the pecking order than you have. Failing to confront them will unfortunately cause many people to conclude that they belong there. Stand up for yourself nice guys.

[Fumesucker]

64. Outgoing, confident and sensitive.. A rare package indeed.

Being shy is an amazingly large obstacle to success in life and it's something that is very difficult to overcome.

I understand why many shy people binge drink because it really helps get rid of the shyness while you are drunk.

My wife and I are total opposites in personality, I'm quiet and shy, she is loud and confident. After more than thirty years together I really don't think she quite understands yet what it's truly like to have that feeling of "everyone's looking at me".

I do great in small groups where I know all, or at least most of the people. Put me in a crowd where I know almost no one and I clam up still at nearly sixty.

Part of it is my interests are not particularly common and don't give a fig for sports, popular entertainment (other than music) or much else in pop culture. Politics, science, technology, medicine, philosophy are all great subjects for me and I can hold forth on any of them essentially indefinitely. But how many people are really interested in those things?

[raccoon]

174. Too bad you're taken, much of what you wrote I could've written. nt

[Book Lover]

70. "Bagged"?

I was unaware I am a prey item.

[Matariki]

71. "bagged a woman"? I seriously doubt you were ever a 'nice guy'. n/t

[Truth4Justice]

247. Never said I was a nice guy, now did I?

Politics makes for strange bedfellows !

[Dorian Gray]

82. That's true

I don't like wimps at all. But Wimp does not = Nice Guy.

A Nice Guy can be strong and assertive. He can also be soft spoken and sweet. But if he is wimpy, I think of someone who complains a lot and is afraid of things. That's never fun to deal with in a relationship.

[Kitty Herder]

146. You know what we don't like?

We don't like being "bagged." We don't like being talked about as if we are prey and you are predator. I feel sorry for any woman who has fallen victim to you. And I'm going to put you on my ignore list so that I don't have to be victimized by your abusive language any longer. Goodbye!!

edited to add: Another thing we don't like is being told that we're wrong about what we like and you're right. "Sorry ladies. Women don't like wimps." i.e. Sorry ladies, I know what you like and you don't.

Frankly, I prefer men that macho-type men would consider wimps. They're the true quality men, the ones who don't have to act like assholes to prove their manhood. They already know they're men, so they feel comfortable being kind and respectful.

[Truth4Justice]

246. Dont let the door hit you....................heheheh

Bye, sweetheart.

[Quantess]

147. Braggadocio. I call it "rooster syndrome".

I watch roosters "bag" hens every day. The toughest, baddest (often oldest) rooster tends to get more hens flocking toward him. Younger, or smaller, roosters, may have loyal hens, but the dominant rooster tries to steal his hens away.

The rooster calls the hens when he sees food, lets them eat it first, meanwhile shuffling his wing feathers and doing a mating dance around them. This is how the rooster wins over the hens.

Please give me a shred of hope we humans are better than chickens.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

219. Have you ever really looked at the men who have women flocking around them at social occasions

They aren't the handsomest or the tallest or the richest. They're the most interesting and funny ones.

If you're old enough to remember Adlai Stevenson (Dem nominee for president in 1952 and 1956), you'll remember that he was short, bald, and nobody's idea of a hunk.



Yet, it's said that even at social gatherings full of Washington movers and shakers, he was the one who was always surrounded by women. Why? Because he was smart and funny and treated women as intelligent individuals, a rare quality in those days.

[undeterred]

42. you just go on believing that

and your beliefs will be reinforced

[Pithlet]

44. No more true than women who say

that men only want the bimbos. Just like the women who say that, your skewed, biased viewpoint simply isn't true. Your experience is just that. Your experience.

[ixion]

49. which makes it less valid than yours because?

:shrug:

[Pithlet]

51. I'm not the one going around

saying that all women are this, or all men are that. So, I'd say that yes, my point of view that people are individuals, and you can't broadbrush or slam them all is more valid. Certainly less misogynistic, or mysandrist, no? :shrug: I'm sorry for any pain that you've suffered in your life. It's not as if I've never had pain in my life due to the opposite sex. Most people don't get through life unscathed. But, I do think it would help you to remember not to broad brush all people with that brush your wielding. It doesn't help you, and only adds to your bitterness.

[ba5500]

98. RE:

Both are morons

[Truth4Justice]

248. True enough.

[Taverner]

48. This is only partially true

I am not going to get into struggle psychology and capitalism here. No one died and made me Professor.

But there are a good deal of women who want a roguish guy. An asshole if you will. It's all about struggle.

At the same time there are a good deal of women who want a nice guy. Problem is, they find a nice guy and get married. The pool includes a lot of assholes when people are single in their 30's.

If you can view all human interaction as the trade of stored energy in some form, it starts to make sense.

[Marie26]

54. Uh-huh

Women like nice guys, women don't like "nice guys" who describe themselves as nice & then passive-aggressively blame women for the problems in their lives. It's amazing how quick some can switch from "nice guy" to outright misogyny. Don't be a "nice guy", be a good person.

[riverdeep]

57. There's a kernel of truth to this.

But there are many things that get overlooked. For some reason, niceness has become synonymous with wimpiness. These are two very different traits. Most people of either gender don't respond well to crippling insecurity. It's also true that more women respond to jerkiness when they're younger. Being beaten/abandoned/ridiculed year after year- well, the charm tends to wear off. Part of that is because they're sold a fairy tale from the time they can hold a doll and various other mind-f*cks growing up.

Jerks, because they couldn't care less what you think, seem to radiate more confidence. I say seem to because they are actually impaired, but it's an impairment that currently generates social benefits. Our society in general has set up incentives so that those who lie, cheat, steal, dominate, ruthlessly acquire, etc., seem to wind up on top. The ultra wealthy usually got that way by not playing fair.

However, fighting for justice also takes guts, standing up to seemingly insurmountable odds requires true self-confidence. The goals are nice, the means-not always. You can be secure, aggressive when need be, tender when need be, and be fighting for the right things. IOW, being 'nice' in this sense requires great strength.

I'll close with this:

Ill treatment of female intimates means they'll be certain worlds that will be closed to you. There will be certain ecstasies you'll never experience- the highest and deepest and most long-lasting of ecstasies. You'll never really know what it's like to connect to another human being because you can't connect with something you hold in contempt.

[Dr Fate]

63. I think that is true in some cases when you are younger.

As women get into their 20's 7 30's, they are no longer interested in "the rebel"...

But hey, I'm just going off my own limited experience. I know that when I was in my late teens & early 20's, I had better luck w/ women when I pretended to be a jerk.

[treestar]

67. No, it's that self proclaimed nice guys are usually not reallly nice

A really nice guy always finds a girl. A "nice guy" who complains that the girls only want bad guys is a guy who isn't succeeding with the set of women he limits himself too - the 5% or less of women who are young and beautiful and for whom the competition is too tough. Those other guys may not be perfect, but they have the charm and the charisma and the sense to at least appear to be willing to work for her attention. Those women have tons of men after them, so you can't just sit back and claim that being "nice" is an entitlement to their attention.

[Dr Fate]

87. Exactly- you dont get their attention until you start pretending to be a jerk.

I think you nailed it-you can't just sit back and claim that being "nice" is an entitlement to their attention- you have to pretend to be a jerk- THEN you get their attention.

At least that is what worked for me!

;)

[lumberjack_jeff]

93. "you aren't the same man as I married!"

Being a bit of a jerk is a useful life skill. When you do something nice, it is memorable.

[Book Lover]

69. Do we? Do we really?

Gee, I would think that if you had such great insights as to what every single female on the planet (well, heterosexual female anyway) thinks, says and does, we women would be all over you, like flies on shit.

[Starry Messenger]

73. Please read this.

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml

MPK

[lumberjack_jeff]

92. Tip#1 to all "nice guys"... don't fuckin' read anything on a website called "heartless bitches.com"

Girls (the appropriate term) like that don't have anything worthwhile to say. Seriously. "Whatever, darlin'. Iron my shirt."

Consider that a self-improvement tip. No one worth talking to would hold such moronic views.

[Lilith Velkor]

104. When "nice guys" grow some goddamn balls, they can handle the truth of heartless bitches

It's a rite of passage. Maybe someday you'll get there.

[undergroundpanther]

119. when heartless bastards

act like the narcisstic tyrants, give it time, they will lose those balls,they will have them ripped off by the woman he abuses,and he will be in jail or even better, dead.. I hate bully sexist males they are a waste of skin.
Notice I said males because a sexist bully asshole is not a man,he is a child of about two years of age with the hormones of a frustrated teenager Those boys need to GROW UP and learn women are people and people are not his 'things' to command, use and abuse.

[Lilith Velkor]

224. This one never had any in the first place.

Hence the lame-ass reply.

[lumberjack_jeff]

120. Is that shirt done yet? n/t

[undergroundpanther]

132. Not funny

Has that ego popped yet, boy? In person I would gladly pop that pustule of a personality of yours for you, with my boots.

[lumberjack_jeff]

154. Then I need to take some tips from you.

You're hilarious.

[undergroundpanther]

214. and you ain't worth my time.

[lukasahero]

181. Revealing that you would choose that particular phrase to dismiss women here. eom

[lumberjack_jeff]

199. Not "women". Just the one.

To men who value themselves, women who hate them simply by virtue of their gender aren't worth taking seriously. They're welcome to their opinion, but they are still ridiculous.

Also, why? Which broader sociopolitical point do you wish to make about me because I reject the idea that one must embrace, internalize and validate man hate to "have any balls"? I live in a state in which the Governor (that's her avatar) both my senators and my preferred presidential candidate are all women. I don't consider women ridiculous, only the ones that hate me because I'm a man.

Men have no less inherent worth than women. The views reflected in the essay posted at "heartless-bitches.com" are dismissed out of hand by anyone who believes that. Those that disagree should see paragraph #1.

I will not embrace the hate, nor stand silently by and allow it to metastasize as the conventional wisdom.

[Lilith Velkor]

221. Heh. You should have seen him squealing about women getting college degrees.

"Oh noes! They'll have to be BREADWINNERS! What about the children?!"

:rofl:

[Starry Messenger]

232. Oh, geeze.

I actually have him on ignore, so I missed his pearls of HISdom. I get to be a heartless bitch in peace. With my dude who appreciates what that really means. :evilgrin:

MPK

[Runcible Spoon]

235. yep same one crying in the other threads about how repressed men are

and how anti-man DU is :rofl: Oh, and apparently we will never understand men until we bear sons of our own. Pure gold, I tells ya!

[RadiationTherapy]

238. This is the correct answer.

"balls" doesn't mean aggressive or "not nice" in any way. It means you have the courage to travel or write a book or play guitar in front of people at a party or put together a date like she has never experienced or can be spontaneous on the dance floor.

Truth is, most "nice guys" are cowards and afraid of life.

[conspirator]

171. Funny you mention heartless-bitches.com. They are the female counterpart (not version) of niceguys

These are girls who are not nice, but they aren't alpha females either. They feel bitter because they would like to have the same attention as alpha females.
Their favourite pastime is moking and taking advantage of nice guys.
A nice guy is actually better off courting a self confident woman(although he doesn't any chance), than the average heartless bitter bitch.

"I really hate those bitches very very much" Eric Cartman

[Lydia Leftcoast]

184. What you're doing is called projection

The title "heartless bitches" is meant to be ironic.

These are precisely the women who DON'T chew guys up and spit them out in pieces and get no thanks for it.

You sound as if you've had some bitter experiences, probably because the REAL "heartless bitches" have a built-in radar for self-styled "nice guys" who are too immature to understand the difference between whom you're superficially attracted to and who would be good in a long-term relationship.

When a self-described "nice guy" wonders why a "gorgeous" (in the physical sense--he never got to know her as a person, which would have revealed that she'd been abused as a child and had no sense of self-worth) woman rejected him in favor of a meth dealer and then decides that "all" women like bad boys, that's just plain immaturity.

[Starry Messenger]

196. Eric Cartman.

Really?

"The South Park Guide to Romance" would probably be popular with a certain sector of men, now that I think about it.

MPK

[lumberjack_jeff]

200. The basic kernel of truth is that if you place the wellbeing of anyone else above your own

you have, by definition reduced your self-esteem.

Take care of #1, figure out what you want and do what brings you fulfillment. The rest takes care of itself.

The people who want you to feel valueless have their own agenda. Ignore them.

[lildreamer316]

243. Have you bothered to READ the link posted?

Then you would know that the title is kinda tounge in cheek.
Duh. Do your research.

[Chovexani]

218. LOL! I knew somebody wouldn't let me down!

:rofl: :headbang:

HBI member (and proud), btw.

[Starry Messenger]

231. Thank you, thank you.

I figure if we can save a few at least from falling on their own swords...

...every time. Our work here is done. ;)

MPK

edit: tYpo

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lukasahero]

183. "The intellectual ideas women and feminist women have about themselves"

"The intellectual ideas women and feminist women have about themselves has little relationship to the actuality."

Wow. Seriously? You honestly don't think women are capable of understanding ourselves and we need men to tell us who we really are? It's no wonder women's rights in this country are being allowed to slip back 100 years.

The comments on this thread are absolutely staggering. I'm glad I've already met and married my nice guy and pity the women who have to deal with men like those in this thread.

At least Japanese women have figured out they're better off alone... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/27/AR2008082703194.html?hpid=topnews

[Lydia Leftcoast]

189. Gee, I just love the way all these wonderful, kind-hearted, generous men are telling us

what we're supposed to think, because of course, we have no self-awareness, and they have it all. :sarcasm:

[Runcible Spoon]

237. whoa. SCARY SOCIAL DARWINIST IN AISLE THREE!

:wow:

[Dorian Gray]

78. It's my experience

that some of my girlfriends also like assholes, but why would you care only about the most beautiful women and who they are choosing. There are many varied women out there, many of them extraordinarily attractive without being modelesque, who are open to dating all sorts of men. I married one of the nice ones.

I also find that nice guys often are attracted to the female equivalent of the type of guys you say that beautiful women are attracted to: Sort of vapid assholes. Who needs them?

[bullwinkle428]

79. There's a difference between faux-"nice" and genuine-nice...

[Aristus]

85. Yes. You're wrong. I'm a "nice guy", and this is who I married:

Her first husband was an ultra-macho abuser; after that, a "nice guy" looked pretty good.

[elshiva]

130. Wow, Aristus. You are a great couple.

Nice guys are awesome. :) :hug: Thanks for being so nice. I'm sure she loves you. :)

Too bad you're married, gorgeous. :( ;)


buffy

[seabeyond]

103. i married a nice guy. the only guy i considered marrying cause he was nice

and because he is so nice, i am nice right back at him

we have been together for 14 yrs and value and appreciate each other

[Ex Lurker]

109. I don't know whether I'm too nice or not nice enough.

but whatever it was didn't work. I just think some of us were meant to be single. I'm not looking any more.

[lukasahero]

185. How old are you? I didn't meet my husband until he was 49

Nice guy (in the real meaning of the word) to the max. Math geek even.

Being single is a perfectly acceptable option when it's what you choose for yourself but if you want a relationship, you should never stop trying to achieve what you want.

[Leftist Agitator]

112. Does any of this ring a bell?

If so, there's your answer!

[Starry Messenger]

242. another fave!

awesome.

MPK

[Ilsa]

113. My hubby us a nice guy and a nerd. And the women at a wedding

I attended a few months ago said the same thing about their SOs.

[seabeyond]

116. even more. i have soooo many women say what a nice guy my husband is.

he works computer. i was in dentist where he had been and had one woman tell me that. and then the dentist came to me and immediately said it and said it again later in conversation. i have always had women tell me this about my husband. it is almost with an aaaaaahhhh that they say it. but after the dentist i told hubby

really, are women seeing so few nice guys that he just really leaves an impression. people all over do favors for my husband. why.....

cause he is fuckin nice.

[lukasahero]

187. I get that all the time as well

Every woman I know (including my own mother and sister!) thinks I am so lucky to have found such a "nice" guy. (FTR, my dad and my brother-in-law are "nice" guys but they still haven't figured out how to do the laundry...)

We had a party for my work team a few weeks ago and all the women raved on and on afterwards about how great my husband is and how they hope they can find someone like him. Who'da thunk being "nice" was such a rare commodity?

[seabeyond]

191. Who'da thunk being "nice" was such a rare commodity.... exactly. n/t

[Kitty Herder]

124. That's crap!

I hate "mean guys."

But nice men are hard to find. They're usually already married or gay. I know that's a cliche, but I find it to be very true in my experience.

I think this "Women don't like nice guys" meme is something invented by men to excuse their bad behavior.

[undergroundpanther]

139. Exactly

And bully men are SO jealous of truly nice guys.
Because of mean guy's evil personality nobody wants to be with the mean abusive guys ,unless they've been conditioned from childhood to endure abusive relationships as "normal."
This mean guy writer is looking to victimize someone.
Let's call it what it is.Abuse.

[Kitty Herder]

148. Absolutely!

It is abuse.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

143. Yes, once you get past a certain age, that's true

The available men are just not good company, and that's an important flaw. If you're past childbearing or have raised your children already, if you have a job that pays enough to live on, etc., you want someone who is will enrich your life, not just make more work for you.

I get the distinct impression that a lot of middle-aged men are looking for a housekeeper/cook with benefits and little else. They think they're "nice" because they'd never be abusive. But they tend to be either exceedingly boring or angry at the world, and I don't need either type, thank you, and neither do most women.

By the way, boring is not a synonym for "nice." It means... boring, as in has no interests other than work and sports, spouts conventional wisdom heard from TV pundits instead of thinking for himself, lacks intellectual curiosity, refuses to venture outside his comfort zone in terms of food, entertainment, activities, or travel; and is not only emotionally tone-deaf but doesn't think there's anything wrong with that.

[Kitty Herder]

150. You're so right about boring not being a synonym for nice.

I think people often get the two confused. Especially men who complain that women don't like "nice guys."

I'm only 31. Does that make me "past a certain age?" I do find that most the nice men are taken or gay. Most of the men my age are only looking for a housekeeper/cook with benefits, too. Sigh...

[raccoon]

175. Exactly, Lydia, same here:

"you want someone who is will enrich your life, not just make more work for you."

And that, IME, is very hard to find.

[lukasahero]

188. "They think they're "nice" because they'd never be abusive."

Yeah, a tip to guys who would see themselves as nice: if the best you can do is use "I'd never hit you" as a benchmark, you're not nice.

[Lorien]

145. No, women loathe boring guys, but love a gentleman

who is intelligent, witty, has lived an interesting life, has his own opinions but will respect those of others. "Nice guys" are often the ones who won't voice any ideas or opinions because they just want to get along until they can get her clothes off. They believe that being agreeable gets them a foot in the door, but more often then not they just bore her to tears. We want what you want; someone who is authentic.

[Quantess]

155. There is something else going on.

And yes, I have confidence you are wrong.
:hi:

[XemaSab]

163. Here's my take on it:

I like a guy who brings a lot to the table.

I like a guy who knows when to be cheeky, cocky, snarky, obscene, larcenous, irreverant, and angry. I also like a guy who knows when to be polite, sweet, sympathetic, gentle, generous, conciliatory, and kind. Smart (even nerdy) and funny are a given, of course.

It's all in the balance.

I think a lot of guys, as is said elsewhere in this thread, equate "nice" with "boring" or "passive aggressive," and those aren't cool at all.

[judasdisney]

164. Not wrong, but you'll get the most outraged reaction to that simplest insight

Heterosexual-identifying women will claim to want a "nice guy" but their definition of "nice" is complex and ANY type of "weak" qualities will automatically disqualify a "nice" guy.

Women want "bad boys" and always have and always will.

Ask a biologist about bird mating habits, where a female bird will MATE with the most outrageously-plumaged male, but then seek a plain-looking male to USE as the caretaker and long-term partner.

Human females do it too. Shhhh. It's a secret.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

179. And you know all about the inner life of all women, do you?

Five women have just told you what we are looking for. I would be willing to bet that we have found such men at some time in our past, only circumstances did not allow the relationship to continue.

I would like to add that I have never fallen for a "bad" boy in my life, not even from a distance.

[seabeyond]

182. never done a bad boy. why? pain in the ass. want so much more. n/t

[Book Lover]

202. And you can say this on behalf of billions of people how?

You say this on behalf of a group of billions, to which you don't even belong. Got it.

[Tesha]

177. The current science agrees with you with one interesting twist...

The current science is suggestive that women want "nice guys" through
most of their menstrual cycle but want to be impregnated by a bad boy.
Sucks for the cuckolded "nice guys", I guess. And this may be true across
many species, not just humans.

WRT to Mr. Tesha, a very nice guy, I'm very happy with him all the time,
and that whole "cycle" thing is, well, thankfully behind me. ;)

Tesha

[lukasahero]

190. Re: all this "biological imperative" bs

So what drives a woman like me who has no interest in being impregnated by anyone? I'm curious. I've seen that argument being used quite often in this thread and have to wonder if I'm just not "woman enough" to count...?

[Tesha]

193. No, but you're an "outlier" in the data set.

And your genes (obviously) won't be passed-along to the next generation
so any biological traits you possess die with you.

Tesha

[lukasahero]

195. Then why is the trend actually increasing?

More women are choosing not to have children today than in the past. If it is all about genes being handed down, how is a trend where the genes by definition are not being passed actually increasing?

I don't suppose it could have anything to do with the fact that women (i.e. - human beings), while being animal by nature, are also rational, thinking beings with free will to choose their own destiny, could it?

Do we or do we not believe in evolution of the mind as well as the gene pool?

[seabeyond]

197. it amazes me with sexuality we have never "evolved" yet all other things equated to

evolution we are so advanced. such a puky theory

my niece had three guys one month and got preg. she picked "best" provider. then decided another was a better provider and dumped first. married. the other the father. after a year she has decided the first will probably be a better provider adn shouldnt she dump this man who has sacrificed adn been father even though not biological cause the first will do better by baby?

i mean

no fault with her. just dna

[SmokingJacket]

198. My husband is a really nice guy. He's also extremely ambitious.

A woman's an idiot if she thinks the two are mutually exclusive.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

210. Oh yay. More evo-psych bullshit from a NiceGuy(TM)

Here, let the Heartless Bitches educate you:

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml

Basically, the typical self-professed "nice guy" is really just a shallow wanker with an overblown sense of entitlement.

[Chovexani]

217. ...

Oh, fuck it, just read this:

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml

[Codeine]

230. Not true.

I'm the quintessential Nice Guy and I still do well. Women tend not to like men with brutally low self-esteem issues, or who are so insecure that they are jealous and clingy, or who have a total lack of confidence, but you can still be a very Nice Guy and have great success in the dating world.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

233. I disagree that they loathe them

I think they find them not as interesting and not a "challenge".

[Edweird]

234. Badboy checking in...

No NOT ALL women loathe "nice guys". Not all women like "badboys'. In fact, any statement of that sort is pretty much automatically wrong due to the diversity of women.
My current girlfriend (and possible next wife) doesn't like "nice guys". She's not a "nice girl" and I wouldn't have it any other way. We are two peas in a pod. I have never been happier....

I am a "strong" person with a dominant personality, and it's not by choice. It's just who I am. I tried being "nice" and came off as a serial killer looking for his next victim. Epic fail.

From what I have seen nice guys that try to be "me" fail, too. Just be yourself.

For the record, I am TERRIBLE at picking up women. Simply awful. If I approach them first, they end up doing that thing with their hand that's kinda like a salute where they shield their eye, hehehehe. It's THAT BAD. But, if I don't try at all, and couldn't give a shit either way and just hang out with my friends and be my maniac self, THEY pick ME up. That's just how it is. No complaints....

You just haven't found the right girl for you, yet.

If you really are "nice" I would suggest developing your salesmanship and finesse. The guys that are good salesmen do just fine, too. I lack finesse. I am about as subtle as a sledgehammer blow to the face....

Happy hunting...

[lildreamer316]

240. "Nice Guys = Bleh!" ....

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml

"All too often we hear self-professed "Nice Guys" complaining about why they can't get a date, and whining that women just want to date jerks, etc. etc. The truth of the matter is that there are genuinely caring, compassionate, decent, fun guys out there who have NO TROUBLE meeting people, getting dates, and having relationships.

Unfortunately, many of the guys who DO have trouble, insist that women don't want them because they are "too Nice". These people who call themselves "Nice Guys" can't see that THEIR OWN behavior is the problem. That behavior either drives women away or attracts the WORST kind of predator - one who is manipulative and self-serving. Whether it is targeting women who are troubled to begin with, setting themselves up to be taken advantage of, or acting in a manipulative, patronizing or obsequious fashion, these guys sabotage themselves and often blame "all women" for their misfortunes.

This section is devoted to the guys who suffer from that self-professed "Nice Guy" affliction. Here is the place to find out why YOUR behavior isn't as "Nice" as you think it is... "

with articles such as:


"When is a "Nice Guy" a LOSER?

Nice Guys We Can Do Without

Steven has Yet Another Guy's take on "Nice Guys"

Momo is of the opinion that Jerks Are Often The Lesser of The Two Evils

NiceGuy/Asshole - Different Sides of the Same Coin? - Mithrandir comments on a segment of the readership that fails to answer the clue phone.

Sensitive Guy? - Another comic takes aim at the Sensitive Nice Guy.

Something Positive - A great take on the "Nice Guy" dilemma.

What is Misogyny? - Jim provides some perspective on why some "Nice Guys" aren't so nice...

Dave Understands why women don't find a man who Feels Sorry For Himself terribly attractive.

JC posits why he thinks Women Don't Want Nice Guys

Natalie has fun (with a few choice comments from Jade) with a Walking Stereotype who calls himself a "Nice Guy".

Jade dissects Steve's assertions in The Nice Guy's Dilemma

Fabulana uses some HBI correspondence to demonstrate "Why I Hate Nurturing Guys"

The Myth of the Sensitive New Age Nice Guy

"REAL Nice Guys Don't Finish Last" - A guy on Nice Guys

Why Amy Doesn't Date "Nice Guys"

Why Nice Guys are Boring and Jerks are Interesting

The Man With No Spine - (A Parable for "Nice Guys")

10 Reasons Women Date Jerks instead of Nice Guys"



THIS IS NOT TO SAY YOU ARE NOT A NICE GUY. I don't know you. This is a good resource for many people; seriously.
Just thought some others might like to read it too.

[Der Blaue Engel]

5. I'd respond, but I have so much vomit to clean up now

But, hey, I'm doing it in lingerie!

:puke:

[Solly Mack]

7. "...a man of quality" LMAO

[classof56]

12. "Ten broads around the corner"?????

Yeah, this fella's a real catch, all right.

Words fail me... :mad:

[liberalhistorian]

13. Fuck that and fuck him. Who's his adviser, Dr.

Laura Homewrecking Whore? I have news for him. His definition of "quality" is a vast universe away from the REAL definition of quality. I have a very high-quality husband who not only loves and accepts me for exactly who I am, no matter what my "size" is, who loves the inside and not the outside, but who would never, ever dream of considering a woman to be his servant, indeed, would hate it if she were. His belief in an equal partnership, his integrity and character, caring and concern, along with his intelligence and humor and sensitivity, make him a REAL "quality" man. Not a neanderthal caveman troglodyte like this author asshole, who refuses to recognize that women are also people who have feelings and needs that men need to be concerned with instead of only thinking of their own feelings and needs. Fuck him. Any woman who actually reads his garbage and takes it seriously deserves what she gets.

[supernova]

15. And this is posted here because...?

:shrug:

[lukasahero]

23. Because reminding women how little some men think of them

is always so much fun on DU.

I assume you'll understand my tone of delivery and that no emoticons are necessary.

[seabeyond]

186. they are 19 yr olds and cant get laid. lol lol. n/t

[liberalhistorian]

17. I'm so tired of all these books and articles on

this "how to keep a man" bullshit. Imagine if a woman were to do the same thing, charges of man-hating bitch would rain down like a hurricane. 'Cause women aren't supposed to have feelings and needs too, ya know.

[truedelphi]

20. But there is that one woman who wrote a whole book based on her life with her

Live In boyfriend who was sometimes a jerk.

It was wildly successful in England and parts of Europe. And made me realize that you CAN make lemonade from lemons. (Or at least get on well-promoted writing tours, book signings and picked up at airports in limos.)

[riverdeep]

41. Is the assertion that this way of being is somehow new?

Cause it's as old as civilization. The British blokes have a saying that goes something like, "Treat her badly, she'll love you madly." Men get respect from their peers for bagging lots of women and bonus points for treating them like crap.

This guy, Tucker Max has made a cottage industry out of being a jerk and treating women like crap. He's even peddling a movie script based on his worldview. With America's taste in movies, expect it to be a blockbuster. And if you don't like it, it'll be because you're PC.

Yesterday we put out a call for the viciously panned script of I Hope They Serve Beer In Hell, the upcoming film written by I-totally-fucked-that-chick blogger Tucker Max. We immediately received about a dozen copies of the script, which is apparently being forwarded around Hollywood like a list of bad lawyer jokes. I also could have said "like herpes," and I could also follow up by joking that the script is about as funny as a bad lawyer with herpes, haha. Friends, it opens with Tucker Max fucking a deaf girl and screaming "DON'T TAZE ME, BRO!." It is that bad. After the jump, three of the most terrible moments from the film's first half. Jesus, bro:

http://gawker.com/5033233/tucker-maxs-movie-script

[NashVegas]

43. So Much for Third Wave Feminism, Huh?

What the "Rules" people understand, I think, is that guys who aren't forced to take ownership of their desires, and take some responsibility for their care and nurturing, don't.

[LeftyMom]

46. Yeah, I'll totally keep that in mind.

:eyes:

Oh wait, I have self respect, so I date men who can and do cook their own dinners and scrub their own floors, and who like my body because I'm in it.

[Quantess]

168. if you make 75% of what your dream date makes, then that's about average

and you can go about, keeping house, to make up for what he's making and you aren't.

[dkofos]

52. On what page does he say "a good beating will keep the bitch in line"??

[morgan2]

56. Hey I follow the rule of thumb

I can only beat my wife with a stick no thicker than my thumb.

[Odin2005]

60. WTF? I like tough, indipendent women that are defnitely NOT "submissive."

My girlfriend is usually the one bossing me around! :rofl:

TRUE gentlemen are not sexist jerks.

[JVS]

61. There will always be a market for books that advise selfish behavior.

People like to be told that it's ok to be a jerk. That goes for the guys who buy this book and for women who buy books like The Rules.

[Matariki]

81. The first review on Amazon for The Rules aptly fits *this* book as well

Pig slop

Why is this pig slop?

1 - If you enter a relationship based on dishonesty, you'll wind up married to someone you don't know.
2 - If a guy knows this is the game, and it's not really you, he will get turned off instantly.
3 - The book tells a woman how to catch a man who enjoys the chase. Wouldn't you rather catch a man who enjoys you?
4 - What kind of manners are based on not returning phone calls?

[Cleita]

77. He has a girlfriend?

She must have no self-esteem whatsoever.

[Matariki]

80. Oh my goddess - the book title is 'The Re-Education of the Female"!

This belongs with the BDSM books. Where I used to file Christian 'marriage manuals' when I worked at Amazon, lol.

I guess if you're into fantasy role play, whatever. But anyone taking it as a serious dating guide is going to be lonely.

[ba5500]

99. RE:

"But anyone taking it as a serious dating guide is going to be lonely."

You'd have to a complete retard to actually follow the guide.

[XemaSab]

161. Welcome to DU

and I know you probably don't mean it, but many DU'ers have children and relatives with developental disabilities, and the word "retard" is frowned upon here.

[Matariki]

84. "Oh and PS assholes, a recent study confirms what has been long suspected:"

"Oh and PS assholes, a recent study confirms what has been long suspected: that a woman's BMI actually has NO correlation with the number of partners she reports having. On the other hand, men with higher BMIs report fewer partners. Imagine that."

LOL. From a comment on the article the OP linked.

[SalmonChantedEvening]

86. Subservient sextoy and chef to a complete asshole

Jeez somedays I just wish I was a gal. Maybe there are beatings as well. Beat still my foolish WHAT A FOUL STEAMING PILE OF HUMAN DETRITUS YOU ARE Dante.

Oh to dream that you get the Inferno you're named for.

[HEyHEY]

88. Quite the example he gave

Could it be a little less thought provoking?

That said, when I went through a bad break up and became uber ass when it came to the ladies I was scoring left right and centre. After it got out of my system and I became "nice guy" again.... it was much tougher cause of the stupid conscience thingy

[lunatica]

89. No wonder I couldn't keep a man!

But then, some men think they're sexy in dirty briefs and smelly socks while wanting women to do a full body brazilian wax and wear a tong. Yeah, real love there.

[PassingFair]

123. I don't care WHAT he says, I am NOT wearing those...

[ba5500]

94. RE:

Crazy world we live in

[seabeyond]

105. any guy that is going to be an asshole will get the equal mate. go for it

just weeds em all out for those that want a much more substantial relationship

[BlooInBloo]

107. Question to the women: Is there any truth to the meme that girls like bad-boys?

Or is it only something that some asshole guy made up?

[seabeyond]

108. look at all those women that knowingly marry a guy abusing them. one has to ask

why is the guy abusing and why is the woman allowing herself to be abused. i am sure. look how fucked up a lot of kids are being raised. i can about guarentee it is not a healthy environment. but there are reasons there are those that need to be abused and those that need to abuse.

my parents raised me in a healthy, secure, respectful environment and no, that is not what i need want or would accept from male.

on edit: self respect what is missing in so many today.

[undergroundpanther]

144. Self respect does not come out of thin air

Women that are CONDITIONED by patterns of abuse growing up often get into these bad relationships thinking it is normal.They have no way to compare a healthy relationship to an abusive one.

You must be respected in your life to have any self esteem.
some people never get the appreciation they need in their lives because they grow up around abusers.So they never know true self respect until they get away from abusive people.

Abuse is a form of conditioning. For one to dominate another the dominated must be conditioned to accept abuse and to fear and the abuser has to tell himself he is entitled to abuse others.

This game of make believe abusers impose on others has been tolerated way too long.Some people act as if it is reality that abusers are entitled to act out on their victims..The Abusers HAVE to be forced to STOP it.Abuse is wrong.It is not good or simply a kink thing or "opportunism" to seek out another human being to abuse them.

[seabeyond]

170. right on. i just didnt want to go into all the obvious. but you are right on. n/t

[LWolf]

173. It's a little more complex than that.

There are women who unerringly choose jerks over nice guys. My mom was one of them. I grew up watching her go through a string of abusive relationships. That's what I learned about men; that they couldn't be trusted, and that they were abusive.

She, finally recognizing the difference, and recognizing a lifelong pattern of being attracted to assholes, consciously chose to just stop having relationships.

I was relieved, after a lifetime of watching her become enamored of one loser after another, while preferring to keep relationships with nice guys platonic.

Why is it that way? In my mom's case, I'd suggest it came out of an abusive, emotionally neglected childhood.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

220. And I believe that the men are confusing two types of women here

1. The woman who seeks out abusers and shuns men who treat her well. (There are men who are attracted to emotionally and even physically abusive women, and I suppose the psychology is similar). This type of woman is usually someone who was severely abused as a child and doesn't believe that she deserves to be treated well. She may bring out a man's Sir-Galahad-rescuing-the-damsel-in-distress instincts, but she feels that she doesn't deserve a good man and will go back to the bad boy (the REAL bad boy) every time. Good men can't help her, because being "rescued" by someone else only reinforces her feelings of helplessness. She needs intensive therapy and practice in being strong and independent.

2. The woman who is deliberately cruel to men. I think this type of behavior gets passed down through the generations. It's rare to find a lying, manipulative, unfaithful sociopathic woman--who can be superficially charming--who didn't come from a family where a mother or aunt or grandmother didn't model that sort of behavior.

These are two totally different types, and both can break men's hearts. I think--at least it's been my observation--that the men who are attracted to the second time of woman sense the darkness churning under the charming surface and mistake it for sexual passion.

[LWolf]

241. You nailed that one well.

My mother WAS type 1, although she was at least financially independent once she left home. She always worked, and raised me on her own. The men were there, but the dependence was emotional, not financial.

The mother of my grandson is type 2, as is her mother. I'd honestly never met a woman like that before her.

One difference between one and two is that type one harms mostly herself, and type two harms everyone around her as well.

[Kire]

110. Anytime I tell someone else what they "should do" (and vice versa)

We are usually just not accepting reality.

People will either do what they do, or we can try to convince them to do otherwise using rational reasons.

But when someone wants someone else to do something, otherwise they will be "dissappointed" (aka mad, aka not in reality), then I want no part of that. That is not freedom. That is not America.

[Prophet 451]

115. Is he serious?

I mean, this isn't one of those really subtle satires, is it?

[seabeyond]

117. Is he serious?... no, just stupid. and now you have guys on here buying it.

rollin eyes.

[undergroundpanther]

118. This is exactly the kind of male

that would have my fist down his throat where I would rip his stomach out through his pathetic mouth. .I do NOT date anyone who does not respect ME and think he can issue commands. Listen up boys..I don't do commands.I break those who would dare pretend superiority to me.
I hope I am never at a bookstore where he is peddling his crap.Abusive narcissistic little piece of shit he is.And I will call him that to his face.I will humiliate him in public because I hate bullies and make no apologies for my hatred of bullies.

[Kitty Herder]

127. ...

:yourock: :applause:

[ccharles000]

129. ...

:hug:

[undergroundpanther]

131. hey!

:pals:

[Kitty Herder]

128. I have a feeling this guy will be single soon.

No woman would put up with that shit for long. His girlfriend will eventually lose her patience with his shit and leave.

And then, since he's made it clear how much he hates women, he'll have a hell of hard time finding dates. Or even women who don't want to punch him in the mouth.

[undergroundpanther]

133. I hope some one

he abused gets sick of him and kills him.It would do us all a favor seeing an arrogant, abusive, psychopathic, sexist, piece of shit like him get what he truly deserves.
To end.Forever.
I hate abusive sexist males...I HATE them with the kind of hate that would scare the shit out of them.

[seabeyond]

223. underground, it scares the shit out of me and i am nice and female

AND i know where you are coming from. as always.... tons of love and hug to you

[Truth4Justice]

249. No, he will find another woman and you will sit home reading a book.

[Withywindle]

135. "Advice" books like this for women have a fatal flaw.

"The Rules" too - follow all the advice, and sure, you'll get a man. And it'll be the type of man who digs this kind of shit. And you'll be stuck with him.


I think a divorce lawyer who went around sticking business cards into all these books at Borders would make a killing.

[Quantess]

142. "The Rules". LOL! The authors divorced, years after finding their "dream men".

Possibly because their husbands discovered how coy and deceitful their wives really were!

It's entirely possible that "The Rules" husbands finally woke up and realized how lame their wives were.

[XemaSab]

162. Or the wives realized that "catching" a man

by playing stupid games is no way to have a quality relationship. :P

[Quantess]

136. Disgusting. However, some women just might actually go for it.

Many low-self-esteem women feel right at home with that kind of dirtbag treatment. So, I can't judge the man for being an opportunist. It really is up to each woman to decide on her own terms how she likes to be treated, and vice-versa for men.

Not all "nice guys" are whipped, not at all. Most "nice guys" really want a high-self-esteem woman, who demands respect for herself, and is also nice and respectful in return.

There is someone for everyone!

[undergroundpanther]

141. I can condemn him for being an opportunist predator

He is an abuser.Why not call it what it is ABUSE.He likes to abuse women because he thinks he is entitled to abuse others .This means he is a psychopath justifying himself and should be never trusted around ANY woman.

Would you not condemn enron for being "opportunistic" with their employees retirement funds too?
So why excuse a male predator taking advantage of women conditioned by abusers to tolerate MORE abuse.Wouldn't you rather see people get healthy relationships?
Wouldn't you like predatory corporations to not get away with abusing people 's trust too?
It's all psychopathic behavior,different methods same abuse and this male asshole and companies like Enron or Halliburton should never be tolerated or relabeled as opportunism, it is ABUSE and it is WRONG.

[Quantess]

152. Oh, absolutely, this behavior is abusive and wrong.

I apologize for not making my point clearer. I think the guy is a total scumbag who should never get sex again. If only it were that easy, that he would never get laid again (for free) while being a disgusting misogynist scumbag.

The point that some people are missing is that women have a choice to avoid dirtballs like him.

Most women, unless they have been forced into prostitution, have a conscious choice to steer clear of assholes and direct themselves toward good people.

Granted, it is much harder for girls/women who never got a chance to know the difference, because they probably never got a good female role model, or a good male role model, either. But that doesn't mean they can't come to their senses and decide they deserve better.

[Solon]

138. This guy sounds like someone who hasn't matured beyond the age of 12...

Holy shit, I swear, I'm literally flabbergasted at this fucker!

[MrSlayer]

149. I see nothing at this link.

It's blank underneath the feministing logo.

[ccharles000]

151. It may work later.

I don't know why the site is acting up.

[conspirator]

157. I predict this thread will be a gender flame war n/t

[JVS]

158. hey nostradamus, predictions are usually supposed to come before the event

Seeing as we're at about 157 posts and we have a bit of what you predicted already, I really have to say that you were late to press on this prediction.

[lukasahero]

192. ...

:spray:

[seabeyond]

178. 176 posts later. no. most people are beyond this nonthinking bias. n/t

[Quantess]

160. self edit.

.

[pokerfan]

169. I found the author's website!

Not really, but it does sounds a lot like this guy:



Nightmare Online Dater http://gawker.com/news/douchebags/nightmare-online-dater-john-fitzgerald-page-is-the-worst-person-in-the-world-309684.php">John Fitzgerald Page Is The Worst Person In The World:

I think you forgot how this works. You hit on me, and therefore have to impress ME and pass MY criteria and standards - not vice versa. 6 pictures of just your head and your inability to answer a simple question lets me know one thing. You are not in shape. I am a trainer on the side, in fact, I am heading to the gym in 26 minutes!

So next time you meet a guy of my caliber, instead of trying to turn it around, just get to the gym! I will even give you one free training session, so you don't blow it with the next 8.9 on Hot or Not, Ivy League grad, Mensa member, can bench/squat/leg press over 1200 lbs., has had lunch with the secretary of defense, has an MBA from the top school in the country, lives in a Buckhead high rise, drives a Beemer convertible, has been in 14 major motion pictures, was in Jezebel's Best dressed, etc. Oh, that is right, there aren't any more of those!

Regards,

John

(Make sure you check out his website.)

:rofl:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

172. Speaking as an utter bastard, I can guarantee that women don't like it

N.T.

[Book Lover]

203. You got that right. (nm)

[lumberjack_jeff]

207. I think there's some territory between "utter bastard" and "bit of a jerk". n/t

[seabeyond]

176. hubby has a friend like this. 16 yr married. hubby and i 14. this man has done nothing but whine

for 16 yrs. he still is whining. we have nothing in common. we are so not connected. when daughter leaves, i dont know what we will do.

hubby (nice guy) and i have been nothing but happy for 14 yrs listening to his continous whining.

[raccoon]

180. One explanation of why some men think "women don't like nice guys."

"…many of the guys arguing for the "women don't date nice guys" are not interested in dating any ole "nice girl." They want to date a hot babe. Now, the hot babe who has got herself all together really *can* land the guy who is "all that, and a bag of chips." (i.e., a hot guy who has it all together--mazel tov, you beautiful and together couple!) So, for the guy who is merely "all that" but not "the bag of chips" (or the "bag of chips," but not really "all that"), the best shot at getting a hot babe is to go for the hot-but-messed-up babe. Messed up women *do* often date jerks (that I will definitely conceed). So, in a nutshell, why do these guys get their undies all in a wad about the messed up women who date jerks? Because maybe their only chance with a hot babe is with such types of "damaged goods." "

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.marriage/bro...

[lumberjack_jeff]

201. There is a basic assumption up and down this thread

that there's one universal definition of "hot babe".

Men are attracted to a wide variety of women. No one is hurt by rejection by someone to whom they're not attracted, and everyone to whom they are attracted is, in their eyes, attractive.

If I were dating, I'd be attracted to those to whom I consider attractive, is this so mysterious? The logical flaw is that you'd necessarily consider her attractive too.

If you want to be a "first husband" be a jerk. If you want to be the "second husband", be a nice guy. If you want to stay the first husband, you have to walk that fine line. That fine line is maintaining enough self-respect and boundaries that you're taken seriously, while making understood that her wellbeing is also important to you.

[seabeyond]

205. If you want ... "first husband" be a jerk. If you want ... "second husband", be a nice guy

i am sayin

and all this is back on the female too. saying there are jerk female and works about the same way

[Evoman]

204. The problem is men and women have a conflict in vocabulary.

Many "nice guys" have this stupid idea that if they act like throw rugs and let women step all over them, that they are nice. They think that acting like some chivalarous knight, and meeting the demands of his fair maiden, will ingratiate her to him.

But that's not what women want. Women want a real person, who treats them like real people, not like some character from a movie.

Most of these so called nice guys might call someone like me a bad boy or jerk. Well, I'm not a bad guy. I like to joke around...sometimes I'm down-right perverted. I won't let a woman (or man) treat me with disrespect. If a person give me bullshit, I don't give them a pass, man or women.

But I also treat women with respect. REAL respect. Not fake, woo-ing, fake-romance movie bullshit. How can you really respect a women if you see her as a caricature rather than as a real person?

Other characteristics of so called nice guys

-whiny
-stick up their ass
-confidence-lacking
-boring
-shitty conversationalists (because they won't disagree with anything or give their real opinions)

Why would any women want to go out with that? I certainly wouldn't.

You have to treat women well. Give her respect. Don't put her on a pedestal like some trophy. Find out what a real "nice guy" is from the women. I'm sure it's gonna be a way different definition that you have.

[seabeyond]

206. maybe we need to look up definition of nice. i couldnt do a man that lets me walk

all over him. with my personality i would and then i would feel bad. being selfish, i dont want to feel bad

i think you are right adn what men arent getting

what is nice

not wuss, wimp, weak.... all eeew

nice

[Evoman]

208. That's exactly it, Seabeyond.

It's really not about being some hyper-masculine macho man. It's about having self respect and boundaries.

Yeah, their may be some women who like abusive jerks. Just as their men who like abusive women. Their may also be women who like a doormat man, just as their are men who love Stepford wives. But if you want a good relationship based on mutual respect, then being a jerk or being a "nice guy" is gonna get you exactly what you deserve and not what your looking for.

[seabeyond]

209. gonna get you exactly what you deserve ... how i approach life

there with you evoman

[Evoman]

211. What you don't know is that I was just agreeing with you so I could "bag" you.

:rofl:

Just kidding ;)

[seabeyond]

213. ah hahhahaa. lol lol. and would a happened too. see nice guys do win

that was funny

[lumberjack_jeff]

225. Agreed. To a guy who is compliant by nature...

The way to fix his "nice guy" problem is to be more of an asshole.

Don't let people walk all over you = be more of an asshole.

At a garage sale, the items which are least likely to leave are the ones in the "free" box. Anything that comes without effort is perceived to be without value. The value increases as the effort required to keep it increases, until the point at which you say "this ain't worth it anymore".

A wonderful illustration of this concept can be seen here;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn6KMSq_vaE

This impromptu concert, given by one of the worlds best classical violinists on a million-dollar Stradivarius only encouraged seven people to pause to listen.

This has ramifications in all interactions. It's why you don't put up with misogyny and why I don't put up with the moronic manhater generalizations upthread.

I generally don't alert on their misandrist shit because sexism needs to be confronted and eliminated, not ignored.

[kwassa]

244. you're quite the student of human nature.

:rofl:

deep. yeah.

[lumberjack_jeff]

245. Two words and a smiley.

Been saving up? A paroxysm of profundity?

Drive-by dipshits are my favorite.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

222. By George, I think he's got it!

We don't want nice as in "bland." We want kind and dependable with what one of my relatives called "a bit of the devil in his eyes."

[Evoman]

226. Have you ever seen Ground Hog Day?

I think that movie is the PERFECT example of what a man should be, and shouldn't be.

At the beginning of the movie, Bill Murray is a prototypical jerk. Sure he might get laid by lying (nancy), but the true women of his dreams wants nothing to do with him. She despises him.

Then later, he turns into the prototypical nice guy. He fakes his way through it, telling the women exactly what he wants to hear even though it's not him. She catches him everytime, and nothing happens. All his dates end with a slap.

But at the very end, he says fuck it. He actually becomes interesting by being a good person. He still has "the devil in his eyes", but he's out there learning to play piano, saving the lives of various townsfolk, and being a good man. He even, at one point, turns down the offer to go for coffee in a nice way in order to do what needs to be done. In the end, he charms the woman not by being a fake, but by being interesting, and strong, and REALLY charming, not fake charming.

That's what I'm getting at. You don't have to be a nice guy. You don't have to be a jerk. You have to be a real person, with your own interests. Confidence. Intelligence. A joy for life. You gotta stop whining, bending, AND being asshole if you want the same day to stop repeating.

[seabeyond]

227. man you are good. but you are just right

now i am going to quit stroking your ego, lol. wink

but that was a good analogy

[seabeyond]

212. irony: the men that demand this of their woman and woman complies, male ends up hating

that woman and feeling such disdain and disgust cause the woman has no backbone. and they become more abusive. god i have seen these males. and they end up wanting the women that are confident and strong and wouldnt put up with shit from them.

just thinkin about hubby friend and others.

this man is so stupid. and those that are buying it.... even more.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

215. Not only that: the women end up hating the men

My grandmother was brought up to be subservient, as were most women of her generation, born around 1900. It was the type of thing where none of the males in the family were supposed to do a thing for themselves, not even hang up their own coats.

According to male chauvinist theory, my grandmother and her friends should have been happy and fulfilled in their "natural" role, right?

WRONG.

I used to stay with my grandparents during the summers a lot, and that meant sitting in when she got together with her friends. All were traditional housewives who had either never held a paying job or had held a paying job for a year or two before marriage.

I'll never forget the time when a member of the group rejoined them after her husband died, and my grandmother and her friends were telling her how lucky she was not to have anyone bossing her around anymore.

I've encountered the same thing in Japan, where women are supposed to be happy in their subservient role. (This is definitely changing, but when I lived there in my twenties, the expectation was definitely that a woman would get married by 25 and spend the rest of her life at home.

After my student days, I didn't return till I was 35, and all my Japanese and other Asian friends from school were married. When we had a little reunion, they all told me how smart I was not to get married (actually, it had been unintentional), that they didn't feel like themselves anymore, and that they regretted getting married.

So remember this, guys: The subservient woman may end up hating your guts.

[seabeyond]

216. that is what i see. women take it so long and then they walk. the man cries and cries

how the woman broke his heart. what did i do...

now granted i am going off what i have seen

[galledgoblin]

228. a modest proposal

poor Swift is rolling in his grave.

[Runcible Spoon]

236. Where's Leftymom? She is boss on these "nice guy" threads.

get your ass over here woman! :applause:

[Gold Metal Flake]

239. Uh, oh. He's stealing Tom Leykis' schtick.

Will there be a lawsuit?

[wuushew]

250. kick

:kick: