Going veggie can lead to brain shrinkage

[ben_meyers]

I've always suspected as much,

Going veggie can lead to brain shrinkage
Sat, Sep 13 01:35 PM

Melbourne, Sept 13 (ANI): Going veggie could be bad for your brain, say scientists, who have found that consuming meat-free diet leads to brain shrinkage.

According to researchers, vegans and vegetarians are the most likely to be deficient because the best sources of the vitamin are meat, particularly liver, milk and fish.

Vitamin B12 deficiency can also cause anaemia and inflammation of the nervous system.

Yeast extracts are one of the few vegetarian foods which provide good levels of the vitamin, reports Courier Mail.

http://in.news.yahoo.com/139/20080913/936/thl-going-veggie-can-lead-to-brain-shrin.html

What's the beef!

[samuraiguppy]

1. weird, but interesting.

thanks for sharing!

[roguevalley]

136. gives new meaning to pea brain

:evilgrin:

[samuraiguppy]

140. good one!!!!

[teehee]

156. You must be a strict vegan then

[teehee]

157. You must be a strict vegan then

[LeftyMom]

2. Maybe the rest of you can catch up a bit then.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/1215-05.htm

People who were smarter to begin with are more likely to go vegetarian.

[a la izquierda]

35. HAHAHA! Nice comeback! N/T

[beac]

116. Bingo!

I've been taking a B12 supplement lately, but have been veg for 5+ years.

I recently participated in a 'memory study' at a prestigious university. It was a three-day study over two weeks and ALL THREE of the grad students administering my tests remarked on how 'amazing' my memory was for someone of any age, not just my fellow middle-agers.

And, I don't know if it's due to the size of my brain, but I feel QUITE smart whenever there's another mad-cow-related beef recall. ;)

[Eric J in MN]

3. The study didn't compare vegetarians and meat-eaters.

It compared who has "the lowest levels of vitamin B12" with the rest, and then assumed that means vegetarians are at risk.

I'm a vegetarian, and there is B12 in my soymilk.

[ben_meyers]

4. But your "soymilk" is from 80% genetically modified soybeans

how smart is that?

[Eric J in MN]

6. It's "organic."

They're only allowed to use the word "organic" if they believe the soybeans aren't genetically modfified.

[ben_meyers]

7. And you "believe". Further proof of the hypothesis.

[Eric J in MN]

15. Do you have a way to guarantee that your food doesn't contain GMOs? NT

NT

[greguganus]

21. 'SILK' soymilk states on the carton that it is not from genetically grown soybeans

Anything being sold as Organic has to have an Organic Certification from the USDA.

http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/!ut/p/_s.7_0_A/7_0_1OB?navid=ORGANIC_CERTIFICATIO&navtype=RT&parentnav=AGRICULTURE

But why provide proof? You have already shown in an above post that you will just come back with the line "And you believe that?". You are just here to stir up shit.

[pnutbutr]

28. Grown organic does not mean....

Most products marketed as organic in your locl store go through the same processing as any other non organic product. Soy bean processing strips out a lot of the vitamins that make it an attractive healthy product. Much of the soy milk is powdered for distribution then rehydrated at it's destination. It's much cheaper to transport a dry powder than a liquid. Organic today is for the most part a marketing scheme. There was a farm local to me that was a true organic farm. It was incredibly successful in the local market and eventually bought out by a businessman who kept up the organic farming but started processing and packaging the products for nationwide distribution. Calling any of the products organic was a joke among the people here. Eventually it became unprofitable because it basically got too big. The farm is now in the hands of people who again run it as a true organic farm that sells it's products locally.


If you live near organic farms and purchase the products either from the farm or through local farmers markets etc... you will in reality be getting a fresh organic unprocessed product. Otherwise you're just overpaying for processed food.

[AllieB]

36. Soy isn't healthy.

Unfermented soy is a very modern invention, one of the most highly processed, toxic foods on the planet. The Chinese knew what dangers unfermented soy presented and that's why they fermented it over long periods of time to remove the toxins and ate it as a condiment in limited quantities.

Because it's cheap as hell, food manufacturers jumped on the soy bandwagon and are making everything from soup to nuts with it and adding it as filler in almost everything. I read somewhere that big agribusiness is clearing rain forests in S. America to plant genetically-modified soy crops. They are also exploiting the locals in the process.

Also, most of the studies that promote soy were funded by Cargill and ADM.

Another argument for eating whole, natural foods. Soy is not one of them.

[pnutbutr]

37. soy nuts

like "organic", "soy" has become a marketing tool. I know it's not really as healthy as claimed but was trying to avoid stirring up anything by getting into that. I've run into some very hot headed soy nuts before.

[marions ghost]

47. how about soy oil? I see it in alot of things...

n/t

[flvegan]

48. The soy they're clearing the Amazon for is to feed to livestock.

[pnutbutr]

61. all 4.4 million tons

of exported soy products are not used to feed livestock. Brazil provides over 30% of the worlds soy beans that are exported across the globe. Brazil last year did almost $75 billion in exports of it's agricultural products.

[LeftyMom]

64. US soyfoods don't use Brazilian soybeans, because the US is a soybean exporter too

Brazil's soybeans, which are overwhelmingly GMO and not the organic ones preferred by vegetarian food producers and consumers, are mostly exported to European livestock operations.

[pnutbutr]

71. 94% of US grown is GMO

http://www.gmo-compass.org/eng/grocery_shopping/crops/19.genetically_modified_soybean.html

[LeftyMom]

84. And the vast majority of that (over 90% at the last estimate I saw- goes to livestock farming)

Go look at your local health food store. Almost all soy products geared toward the vegetarian market are either organic (which has to be non-GMO by definition) or labeled non-GMO.

There are a lot of GMO soyfoods in American supermarkets, but they're almost all in processed foods geared toward consumers of the standard American diet.

[pnutbutr]

91. "organic"

Is related to the growing process. There is no law stating that organic crops must be tested and verified to be GMO free. Some organic farms test their crops for conatmination but most do not fearing extensive losses if their crop has been contaminated. Your certified organic products from the vegetarian store may indeed contain GMO soybeans.

[Tektonik]

97. The harping about GMO soy is ironic

Most smart vegans and veggies know where to find better quality soy products, whereas the people telling about the 'dangers' of soy are the ones who are eating the livestock eating the 'dangerous' soy.

Where's the outrage for our livestock?

[pnutbutr]

108. grassfed

ftw

[Tektonik]

111. GMO grass exists

:P

[Critters2]

124. Nearly all grassfed cattle are "finished" with grain. nt

[pnutbutr]

129. small community

When you know the farm owners you know what you will be eating. Most in the area take great pride in 100% grass fed beef because the regular local consumers demand it.

[Critters2]

134. Still being fed grain in the feedlots at the slaughterhouse and just before.

Meat producers tell consumers what consumers want to hear--even local producers selling to local consumers. They know you can't watch at every moment.

[pnutbutr]

135. oh

You would know better than me cause you know them and I don't. Some slaughter on the farm others use a local house which maintains grass feeding until slaughter. It's good to know your neighbors.

[Critters2]

139. I'm very active in local farming and marketing. I have parishioners who raise cattle, hogs and

chickens for local sale only. And I know that there's a period--at the slaughterhouse--when the cattle are out of their control, and receiving grain. Slaughtering on the farm is almost NEVER allowed for sale by the USDA. I'd be very surprised to learn that you're buying from people who do. Local slaughterhouses function like any other slaughterhouse, just smaller and closer to where you live. They toss grain at cattle to keep the cattle calm before murdering them. And yes, they all do it.

[Critters2]

119. The vast majority are. It takes 16 pounds of feed--corn, beans, oats--

to provide one pound of beef. I eat my corn, beans, and oats as corn, beans, and oats. So, I consume a lot less of it than the cattle you eat do.

This is why the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says that the best thing you can do to slow climate change is to go veggie.

[Tallison]

162. I went veggie this summer!

:hi:

There are so many sound reasons to - welfare concerns, environmental. One week not long ago it just dawned on me what a favor I'd be doing everything around me with that simple act of self-discipline. I really feel like it's the right thing to do, all things things and interests considered.

[Fireweed247]

50. Soy is healthy, GM foods are not

I buy not GM soy beans and make soy milk myself. I find it hard to believe anyone would think that cow milk filled with antibiotics and hormones is better for you.

Most diets that contain tofu are healthier than your average American diet and the women don't need to take estrogen(which causes Cancer) when they hit menopause. Soy also has isoflavonoids which helps to prevent Cancer.

[pnutbutr]

62. make it yourself

What exactly is your process to make soy milk?

[LeftyMom]

66. The basic process is this:

1. Soak soybeans in water
2. (optional) Heat and cool soybeans, possibly repeatedly. This tends to reduce "beany" aftertaste.
3. Grind up soybeans
4. Add water
5. Add sweetener or flavor as desired.

There are countertop machines to do all of this for a person, if they'd rather make the stuff at home instead of buying it.

[pnutbutr]

70. LOX concern

any?

[LeftyMom]

87. I'm sorry, please restate your post in an intelligible English sentence.

I can't parse whatever that was.

[HamdenRice]

94. Doesn't this give you "the winds" ???

I take no position on the vegan/vegetarian/omnivore wars, and think we're probably all better off and more healthy being vegetarian.

But I'm pretty sure that raw soy beans are quite indigestible to humans. Do you really just grind them and add water? Does that agree with you -- I mean your digestive system? Are you getting any nutrition out of that?

On edit: The quote is a paraphrase from Denholm Elliot in Trading Spaces when he is dressed as an Irish priest and declines Eddie Murphy's beef jerky because it "gives him the winds".

[Fireweed247]

128. The soy beans are cooked

You grind them and add water and boil. Then you strain the okara out which can be used in baking, burgers whatever. Add a little salt,sugar/honey and vanilla.

I use to do it stove top which is time consuming and can be a huge mess if it boils over when you aren't ready for it.
Now I use a SoyaJoy soymilk maker where you just add the soaked soy beans and water and the machine does all the work in 20 minutes. I can order the best non GM soybeans for milk online and have them shipped very inexpensively. It is probably less than 25c per batch.

[LeftyMom]

146. No.

It's not uncommon for people to be really flatulent for the first week or two of their veg*nism if they change over fairly quickly and are eating a lot of unfamiliar food, but the composition of the gut flora changes and temporary.

My understanding is that other sudden dietary changes can do the same.

[teehee]

158. Hey, I am sure that dead flesh doesn't cause gas...

It doesn't have fiber so it just sits and rots for 3 days in your intestines...Imagine having a piece of meat sitting somewhere on a counter at almost 100 degrees for 3 days...what kind of toxins it would create?

No wonder meat consumption is associated with colon cancer!

[bad_robbie]

107. Also see "Joy of Cooking"

There is a recipe for soy milk in "The Joy of Cooking" -- at least there is in the 1975 edition, which is what I have. There is a further recipe for making tofu from the soy milk. It's not at all difficult, but somewhat time consuming to make.

There are a ton of "scratch" recipes in there, including "head cheese", which I do not recommend. It's a good resource especially for anyone who can't or doesn't wish to buy items that are usually sold in "prepared" form, e.g. ketchup.

[LeftyMom]

52. And you have a link to back this up?

One that doesn't come from anybody connected to the nuts at the Weston A. Price foundation, if you don't mind?

[pnutbutr]

68. a start

with a lot of general info:

http://www.roex.com/articles_links/ATTACK%20OF%20THE%20KILLER%20BEANTHE%20CASE%20AGAINST%20SOY.pdf

[Tektonik]

79. people actually believe articles like that?

That's written worse than the shit spewed on Fox News.

[flvegan]

80. C'mon, she was an actress!

I'm currently seeking a rebuttal by Pamela Anderson.

:rofl:

[Tektonik]

90. I can't wait, I need to go find a coffin already

I hear I'm tres unhealthy and need to prepare for cancer and my eventual growth of a vagina.

[LanternWaste]

99. Any peer-reviewed articles? n/t

Any peer-reviewed articles?

[pnutbutr]

117. eh?

http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/articles/Wright.htm

[LanternWaste]

121. No indication it's peer-reviwed that I could see...

Just in case...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_review

[LeftyMom]

147. Well that's just silly.

First of all, there are citations in there to the Weston A. Price foundation, and I asked for a credible link not associated with them. Secondly, I'd like to see something that's more scientific and less of a scare piece. Third, I'd really like to see something from a doctor or other expert, not from somebody who runs some New Age shop selling dodgy supplements.

[AllieB]

73. Here we go again.

There is plenty of evidence that doesn’t come from the Weston Price foundation that point to the dangers of soy. If you can digest soy, more power to you.

I recall from your comments on other threads that it's pretty useless to even question your moral superiority to everyone who eats meat. Even if there’s evidence to contradict your assertions, you hang on to this study or that study to attack anyone who dares to contradict you. Vegetarianism may be healthy for some people, but not all people.

I’m sure you can use Google to find articles, and, of course, because of your innate superiority to us lowly omnivores, you’ll question the sources, because they contradict the propaganda from PCRM.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2008/09/04/why-soy-is-not-the-health-food-you-think-it-is.aspx

http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/

http://thyroid.about.com/cs/soyinfo/a/soy.htm

http://www.greenlivingonline.com/HealthNutrition/dangers-of-soy/

There are plenty more, if you have time to google.

I eat way more vegetables and fruit than meat and dairy, but am far healthier with meat in my diet than I was when I was as a vegetarian. Can you admit that not everyone is healthy on a strict vegetarian or vegan diet? If you can, you’re far more open-minded than your posts appear. If not, just comfort yourself with the thought that you're so much better than all of us meat eaters. I'm sure you do every day.

[Tektonik]

88. Unless one has allergies to lots of legumes I'd disagree

I ate a pretty balanced diet before, but I do feel better eating a vegan diet.

Also anyone who only relies on soy as their only source of protein is doing it wrong. ANY diet that relies on too much of one food is going to fail. I try to make sure I eat a wide variety of grains and legumes. Today I've had some couscous salad (mixed nuts and fruits w/ the couscous), soymilk, bread with sprouted barley, and some Swedish Fish :D.

As for the content of phytoestrogens in soy, we may as well stop eating nuts too since they have higher phytoestrogen counts than soy does.

[AllieB]

96. To each his own.

I feel better with a little meat in my diet. I was a vegetarian then vegan for years and did not thrive, though I was very careful to balance my diet. I found out that I am allergic to wheat, soy, and most grains. So I was eating stuff that screwed me up big time. I now try to eat things that aren't processed, and feel much better and am healthier as a result.

Today I had an omelette with 2 eggs and 2 egg whites with onion, red and green pepper, broccoli and goat cheese. That's a pretty hefty sugar load you're eating there, but you're young so you can handle it. :-) My blood sugar would be through the roof with that diet. :o

I get my meat and produce from local farms, because I agree that agribusiness is truly f*cking up the environment. It's also disgusting.

[Tektonik]

101. Just because you have allergies to wheat and soy does not make veganism unhealthy

You could have remained a vegan and been just fine, but since its more difficult and time consuming to be a vegan without soy or wheat products, I'm sure that's why you went back to eating meat.

[AllieB]

105. I did, and I ended up in the hospital.

Sorry. I'm not sacrificing my health.

[Tektonik]

109. But unless you have allergies to nuts, other legumes, and other grains

You could have remained a vegan, or even an ovo/lacto veggie. You're not vegan/vegetarian anymore for your own convenience, not your health.

[AllieB]

118. Judge much?

Yes, I'm just a lazy sack, and I should sacrifice my health for the higher good. I should know better than to try to have a rational discussion with someone who has little empathy for human beings. Sigh.

[Tektonik]

120. Sorry you were the one judging vegan diets falsely

It does not feel good to be judged, right?

I just hope you realize that if you wanted, you could be vegan AND be healthy, since being vegan does not mean you have to eat wheat and soy products to be healthy.

[AllieB]

126. To each his own.

How is that judging you? I said that a vegan diet didn't work for me health-wise. If it works for you, more power to you.

[pnutbutr]

127. if you wanted

I hope you realize that if you wanted, you could not be vegan AND be healthy.

[Tektonik]

131. I just think you can be healthier being vegan

oh and less harmful to the environment

[LeftyMom]

144. Sounds like you didn't know what you were doing.

A friend of mine has celiac disease and a soy allergy. She's been vegan for years and is in very good health.

It probably doesn't hurt that she's got a degree in nutrition- she actually knows what she's doing.

[AllieB]

145. I was working with a nutritionist and a doctor who was well-versed in alternative medicine.

But thanks for playing.

[LeftyMom]

148. "Alternative medicine" Well there's your problem.

Probably would have better luck with a nutritionist working in evidence-based medicine. My friend the nutritionist (one of MANY vegan nutritionists I know of) went to a university that also hosts one of the better medical schools in the country, not some chakra-aligning woo woo diploma mill.

[AllieB]

150. Sorry to burst your bubble yet again, but this doctor graduated from Harvard Medical.

My nutritionist has an advanced degree from Tufts, one of the best schools in the country. I live in the Boston area, which has some of the best hospitals in the world. You just can't accept that vegetarianism isn't health for some people, can you? Again, thanks for playing 'grasping at straws'

[roguevalley]

137. I eat both, more of fruit and such than meat as I get older but what

amuses me to death is the fact that people will champion science until it gores their ox. science rules until they don't like it. :-D

[AllieB]

143. They ignore the science that doesn't agree with their world view.

It is pretty amusing, because they're turning more people off with their judgemental and insufferable attitudes than convincing people that vegetarianism is a viable alternative.

[Barack_America]

55. Lol. Ever look into the hormones present in cow's milk?

Plenty of studies in peer-reviewed journals showing a plethora of hormone's likely related to early menarche in girls and, later, elevated risk for breast cancer in adults.

[AllieB]

74. Not if you consume dairy without hormones.

Keep small farms in business and buy their dairy and not giant agribusiness products.

[Barack_America]

77. Indeed.

I'm fortunate enough to have a great farmer's market just blocks away that operates 2 days a week almost year-round. And lots of excellent co-ops as well.

And Trader Joes is pretty good about giving people organic and hormone-free options.

[AllieB]

81. Yes, TJ's has stepped up to the plate for sure.

I'm lucky too. We have farms where we can get free range chicken, turkey and eggs, and grass fed beef. Since I live in Mass., there's good fish year round. There is a very good farm locally that still sells milk with the cream on top (like when I was little). The only thing that stinks is that the growing season is short and we have to supplement veggies in the winter with some frozen organic ones. I envy the Californians for their access to great produce all year!

[pnutbutr]

85. all year

There is a farm near me that will provide a rather hefty basket of fresh veggies once a month over the winter. They grow them in a hoophouse during the winter. It costs a bit more and there is a waiting list since they can only provide to a certain number of people. I missed out last year but got on the list early this year. Keeping my fingers crossed.

[pnutbutr]

82. exactly

Find your local farmers market.

[LeftyMom]

89. Lactation does not work that way.

All dairy is chock full of hormones, that's how it gets made.

[Tektonik]

92. shh only soy has hormones

whoever knew plants could be so moody

[LeftyMom]

93. I just drop a midol and a chocolate chip in my soymilk, mellows the little beans right out.

;)

[AllieB]

103. Every living thing has hormones.

We were talking added hormones (rGBH for example).

[LeftyMom]

149. Then why on earth are you more worried about the hormones in soy than in milk and meat?

Soy is just a bean. Surely you eat other beans? Have they caused you to grow a nipple in your forehead or something? Of course not, they're just beans, people all over the world eat beans. Needless to say, hormones from other mammals are much more likely to be similar enough to effect us than those from legumes, especially something like cow's milk that's just naturally full to bursting with hormones.

Not that ingestion is a good way to be effected by hormones of any sort- we have stomach acids that break things down for a reason. That's why hormone supplements are so often given via skin patches or injection rather than ingestion- even with pills specifically designed for absorption, the results can be erratic and sometimes absorption does not occur to any measurable degree.

[smiley_glad_hands]

130. Re: Organic Soy. Ever hear of cross contamination?

There is no such thing as "organic" soy in North America.

[billyoc]

5. Oh, I thought it was the other way 'round.

:evilgrin:

[Triana]

8. brewer's yeast/nutritional yeast

...contains the inactive form of B12 (most easily absorbed by the body). Red Star is the known brand vegetarians use. Sprinkle it on salads, in soups, on your main course. And on popcorn! (yum) It tastes like mild parmesan cheese - most vegans/vegetarians know about and use this. Also, most soy/almond/rice milks are fortified with B12 and most of us take vitamins as well which contains high dosages of B12.

I actually had my Indian (India) doctor tell me to be sure to take B12 supplements since I'm vegetarian. I Googled and asked the health food store where I shop about this and that was the scoop I got.

[WheelWalker]

13. Aphanizomenon flos-aquae

[Mind_your_head]

9. shrinkage? Is that like what my sweater does? n/t

[LooseWilly]

10. What about omnivores who don't eat liver, milk, or fish?

Is a hamburger now vegetarian, unless you pour your milk on it?... Or ask for "extra liver"?

Ohh, and I've also heard studies that say that cabbies have more developed/larger brains than the rest of the population. Do you have any information to reconcile these two studies? If one drives a taxi, is that person no longer required to drink milk, or eat fish or liver, in order to not be a vegetarian?

I've also heard of studies that concluded that tobacco increased brain function. Does that mean that, if one doesn't want to drink milk, or eat liver or fish, all that person needs to do is start smoking in order to not be a statistical cerebral vegetarian?
I've also heard of studies that say that coffee retards cancer development. Does that mean that the tobacco-non-vegetarian-big-brainers will need to drink coffee in order to not get the cancer from their vegetarian-insulation smoking?

Or, maybe this study is as relevant to our lives as the studies that informed us that MSG would cause brain hemorrhaging....

[pokerfan]

11. Shrinkage???!!!

[Arugula Latte]

12. Not compared to mad cow disease!

BTW, many scientists believe that a lot of what is called "Alzheimer's" may actually be a form of mad cow.

[Dorian Gray]

30. Interesting

I've never heard that. I'm going to look that up right now....

[Lance_Boyle]

39. You got a cite for that claim?

:shrug:

[Arugula Latte]

51. Here are some articles:

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0107-07.htm

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/08/24/bc.health.madcow.reut/index.html

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/health/166096_rosehenry24.html

http://www.rense.com/general59/sdme.htm

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/news/mad_cow_disease_may_be_misdiagnosed_as_dementia_or_alzheimers.htm

[flvegan]

53. And Colm Kelleher, PhD wrote an entire book about it.

"Brain Trust" I believe.

[Lance_Boyle]

65. none of these articles suggests that Alzheimers is a form of CJ

The proteins behind both conditions are similar, according to the articles, and CJ in the elderly can be misdiagnosed as ALZ. Nowhere is the implication made that ALZ is a form of CJ/Mad Cow. Your original post was misleading.

[Fireweed247]

59. I believe that

I think that might have something to do with the political climate.

Why won't the government let farmers test 100% of their cows if they want to? What reason could they possibly have for that? I think people who eat meat should be worried and wondering...

[ConsAreLiars]

14. Totally deceptive propaganda - I would expect no less from you or Yahoo.

Here is what it says, regarding a study based on volunteers between ages 61 and 87.

"When the volunteers were retested five years later the medics found those with the lowest levels of vitamin B12 were also the most likely to have brain shrinkage."

Sure, you are always either a shill for or a victim of the MNC's propaganda, but this is just pathetic.

I assume you did not look into the source. Otherwise you would have learned that you were relying on and promoting a Murdoch tabloid. Or maybe you did and were glad to be able to promote Murdoch's agenda. Which is it?

(edit to add the last paragraph.)

[ben_meyers]

16. Even further proof. n/t

[ConsAreLiars]

17. Proof? Proof that you and Murdoch share the same ideology?

Or, if not that, then what the hell does that cryptic comment mean?

[still_one]

25. I have been a vegitarian for over 15 years. I do consume dairy

and take vitamin supplements

My B12 has always been way within normal range

Many people I work with are from India, vegitarian, and extremely sharp

I also question the article posted

[Growler]

18. So basically the quoted article proves that educated, smart Vegetarians

don't have this problem. I've been a Vegetarian for years, and many of my friends are too. I don't know a single one who does not take B12 suppliments. This is a total non-issue.

Also, it's amusing how you confuse "could" with "can". Perhaps eating meat has eroded your ability to parse the meaning in scientific articles...?

[sui generis]

106. I've been a meatatarian for years

I don't feel superior OR inferior.

Well, at least not superior because of what I eat or don't eat.

[silverojo]

19. I'm not surprised

I became very ill when I stopped eating meat, and could have suffered permanent damage if my doctor hadn't caught the vitamin B12 shortage and other problems in time.

Moderation is the key to everything. Stopping any food group completely is dangerous.

[bean fidhleir]

132. Amazing, since a B12 shortage takes YEARS to develop

...unless in a person who's already marginal, of course. Why would you, a recent meat eater, have been marginal? I smell a fake claim here.

[Mabus]

152. There are other reasons

For instance, most of my siblings and I have an inability to absorb B vitamins efficiently. I think it is related to my actinic prurigo (an heredity form of PLME found in Native American Indian populations) as I have read that an allergic reaction to the sun may be related to problems with B6 absorption.

Whatever the cause, my siblings and I have problems metabolizing B vitamins. All of us take B supplements. So, I'm a meat eater and I'm always marginal.

[Norrin Radd]

20. The article lists "milk" as a good source.

I'm an ovo-lacto vegetarian. Your headline is misleading.

[and-justice-for-all]

22. I take B12 everyday...

I still eat chicken and turkey, but moderated. I am allergic to milk anyway, so I do not drink it, plus it has alot of bad shit in it and it is torture for the poor Cow.

I think this is actually bullshit and 99% confident it is a scare tactic.

[klyon]

138. yes the meat lobbies are very powerful

Did you know beef is now routinely injected with lactic acid. I'm also allergic to dairy and that is the reason I gave up most beef. Kosher beef is lactose free by definition.

[and-justice-for-all]

161. I have not had beef for over 2 years...

and I really do not like eating the meat I do eat.

[depakid]

23. So keep up with the B 12 among other things

Unlike BSE and nasty e coli strains- this isn't something we haven't known about for what 40-50 years?

[still_one]

24. I work with associates who are Indian, and vegitarian. They are some of the sharpest

people you will ever meet

A vegan might actually encounter issues, but as long as the consume foods fortified with B12 their should be no problem

A vegetarian who consumes dairy should have no problem what so ever

[prayin4rain]

45. Exactly...

apparently being deficient in B12 may lead to brain shrinkage.... being vegetarian may sometimes lead to a higher risk of being B12 deficient.... turning that into going veggie will make your brain shrink is ridiculous.

[votetastic]

26. Hmmm..

Albert Einstein must have suffered from brain shrinkage then. He was a vegetarian.

[Skwmom]

27. Yeah, that must be why all those Texas beef eating Republicans are such geniuses.

[Dorian Gray]

29. Oh dear lord

I don't know whether to laugh or hide in fear for the ensuing onslaught of infighting that this thread will become.

[Marrah_G]

31. Just think, you could have added in pitbulls, smoking and badly behaved children on planes.........

[gaspee]

125. This is kind of fun

Since I'm not involved in it...

Some of the same suspects in the regular wars though.

Pass the popcorn - though, is it GMO popcorn?

[SmokingJacket]

32. There is a theory that when humans started raising livestock

it lead to increased brain development.

:shrug:

However, I would suspect that the economy of Australia has a bit of a stake (no pun intended) in increased meat eating.

[AllieB]

33. Vegetarians can supplement with B-12.

When I was a vegetarian, I took massive doses of B-12 to stay healthy. Did you know that the FDA recommended levels of B-12 are much lower than in Japan or Europe? Our high is their low.

I eat meat now (mostly fish and chicken) because I was allergic to soy, wheat, and most grains. Eating vegetarian sent my blood sugar and triglycerides into the stratosphere. Now I eat whole unprocessed foods (nothing in a package with added ingredients).

[NeedleCast]

34. Doesn't Bode Well for the Vegetarian-Alcoholic Segment of the Population

[Batgirl]

38. Cool -- Reefer Madness-type alarmism for vegetarians

What with being worried about the economic implosion and the election, you sir are performing a public service by bringing to everyone's attention that those who don't consume certain animal products need to take other, quite simple and ordinary measures, to get vitamin B12. Or else their brains will shrink!

Of course this doesn't apply to those vegetarians who are also pot smokers and masturbators. A simple vitamin pill can't be expected to overcome that much degeneracy. Those people just have to resign themselves to the inevitable descent into violence, insanity, blindness PLUS brain shrinkage.

[RadiationTherapy]

40. Meh. I'd rather keep my ability to take a shit.

My big brain isn't appreciated anyways.

[Naturyl]

41. Not surprising.

Veganism is ethically admirable, but generally impractical.

Meat also tastes good. Nobody is ethically perfect. I accept meat-eating as one of my "chosen sins."

[SOS]

42. Did these vegetarians suffer from "brain shrinkage" too?

Louisa May Alcott
Clara Barton
Charles Darwin
Leonardo da Vinci
Thomas Edison
Albert Einstein
Ben Franklin
Mahatma Gandhi
Bob Marley
John Milton
Sir Isaac Newton
Plato
Pythagoras
Albert Schweitzer
George Bernard Shaw
Percey Bysshe Shelley
Upton Sinclair
Isaac Bashevis Singer
Socrates
Leo Tolstoy
Vincent Van Gogh
Voltaire
HG Wells

[tuckessee]

56. Well, they all are dead.

That proves being a vegetarian will surely kill you.:)

[pitohui]

60. well they probably weren't all vegetarians

for example, george bernard shaw while considering himself to be a vegetarian protected himself by taking liver pills, a significant source of b12, not that he would have known b12 by that name in those days but apparently he had some reason to be aware of the necessity for it

i saw an article some time ago about strict vegetarians from india, who have suffered from pernicious anemia after moving to u.k. -- the theory is that there is sufficient insect contamination in the rice in india (a good source of b12 and protein) but not in the u.k. -- haven't heard any follow up though -- if seems probable to me that the same would apply to rice sources in the past as compared to the present -- it's striking that you don't really have modern comparisons

[io-solip]

69. Some of them drank hemlock and cut their ears off.

:D :evilgrin:

[TheWraith]

102. Your list is bogus.

Einstein, Franklin, and others only ate vegetarian diets for a few years out of their lives. Others on that list are anecdotal, with no evidence one way or another.

[SOS]

155. Franklin

according to his autobiography adopted a vegetarian diet at 16.
Einstein did adopt only in the last 2 years of his life, but wrote of that experience ""So I am living without meat, without fish, but am feeling quite well this way. It always seems to me that man was not born to be a carnivore."
To say the list is bogus is bogus.

[TheWraith]

165. And Franklin dropped the vegetarian diet a few years later.

You'd be better off if you didn't use slanted, incomplete information from people who are propagandizing vegetarianism.

[Fireweed247]

43. Eggs have B12

I'm sure all the meat eating hormone laden plumped up children hitting puberty at 10 and having sex and babies at age 12 are doing that much better than all the stupid vegetarians. There is so much wrong with our food supply, including the foods that vegetarians eat, this argument is stupid.

[flvegan]

44. Idiotic, misleading headline

It's a study that suggests that research shows a link between brain atrophy and low levels of B12. Veg*s have numerous ways to get B12.

[superduperfarleft]

46. Don't let the facts get in the way of some good anti-veg trolling. n/t

[LeftyMom]

54. *insert joke about the best one here*

:evilgrin:

[Orsino]

57. Yeah. Nothing to do with vegetarians/vegans.

Seems to amount to a comparison of a typical diet to that of a fictitious vegetarian who doesn't replace the B12 he would get from meat.

Surprise, surprise! People who don't get enough B12 are most at risk for B12 deficiency! :7

[obamaforme]

49. Supplements are necessary to stay healthy.

[pitohui]

58. knew a man who had pernicious anemia, it ain't pretty stuff

there is also a problem w. doctors not dx'ing it quickly enough, you can stop the progression of the disease w. b12 injections but you don't get back the lost brain capacity, that's gone forever

[RedCappedBandit]

63. In other news, small brains related to lack of reading comprehension

[io-solip]

67. I've always thought it was the other way around.

:evilgrin:

[Batgirl]

72. OMG you posted this JUST IN TIME!!!

Because this one from 10 hours ago was just about to expire!!! Brain shrinkage!!!!

[slackmaster]

75. I am switching to an all-grain diet

:popcorn:

[riderinthestorm]

76. Olive Garden!

(couldn't resist)

:evilgrin:

[pink-o]

78. If it's just about not getting b12, there are PLENTY of botanical sources of that!

The study isn't looking hard enough (probably commissoned by the Outback Steakhouse Corporation). Vegetarians get b12 from eggs and dairy products, Vegans get it from wheatgrass. As for carnivores, how do you think the cows get b12 if not from the botanical food they eat?

What a crock. Bottom line: humans are omnivores with very adaptable metabolisms. We can survive on Fast Food with no nutritional value, or a diet of fatty or lean meat protein or a botanical diet just fine.

[pitohui]

98. there are absorption issues, the human stomach is not like the cow stomach

botanical sources of b12 are probably not going to be absorbed by the human digestive system, it's similar to all the hoo ha about calcium supplements and eventually after decades of taking calcium my mom's osteoporosis was actually WORSE than previous generations, most calcium supplements simply aren't in a form that is properly absorbed as her doctor finally acknowledged, they don't do any good, they recommend the supplements to humor people or because it's considered the politically popular thing to do because it's expected (sort of like writing script for antibiotics for people w. sniffles because it's expected)


"we" can survive on fast food w no nutritional value, who is the "we" -- every day we see people becoming diabetic on such diets and many of them die younger than need be because of the related heart disease -- if you are dead by definition you didn't survive

"we" can survive on a botanical diet, perhaps you can, but the man i knew had lost his ability to absorb b12 to such an extent that, by the time he was dx'd, his digestive system simply couldn't handle it at all, he had to have regular injections

the real bottom live is that humans are an unusual diverse species and one man's meat is truly another man's poison, example -- trying to shoehorn people into grain based low fat diets has resulted in a shocking explosion of obesity in some populations

[CrispyQ]

123. I take sublingual B12.

You hold it under your tongue until it dissolves, bypassing the digestive system. Maybe there is a sublingual calcium your mother could try?

[pink-o]

159. I never said we could survive WELL on a fast-food diet.

Only that eating that crap and not immediately dying of toxicity proves humans have a very adaptive metabolism. Humans are omnivores. Humans can squeeze nutrients from meager portions, or huge portions with little nutritional value, and manage for years before they feel the consequences.

As for a plant-based diet, I disagree that humans can't thrive on it. I'd pit my bloodwork against anyone's. I've been vegetarian for 32 years, and believe me if I had a B12 deficiency, I'd've been long dead or crazy by now. B12 deficiency has pretty obvious symptoms that medical professionals can suss out immediately: my mother was an RN and she knew the condition the moment she saw it.

Notice how few vegans or vegetarians have B12 deficiency. Link me up to a recent case if you want to prove your point.

[PVnRT]

83. Gosh. If only they had some concentrated form of vitamin that one could take as a supplement.

[Ignis]

154. I LOL'd. (nt)

[BlooInBloo]

86. More importantly, going veggie can make you an insufferable bourgeois asshole....

trying to make everyone else do as you do for the weakest possible reasons.

[Tektonik]

95. If I am so bourgeois...

where the fuck is my vegan paté and Roquefort?

I guess I'll have to survive with wine, poor me :cry:

[AllieB]

114. Vegetarianism is not bourgeois. People are committed to their beliefs

and I respect that. Most vegetarians are not the immature and judgemental kinds that we see on DU. They have all the zeal of fundamentalist Christians.

[AllieB]

115. DUPE

[Marr]

100. It causes massive growth in the hacky sack center of the brain though.

[sui generis]

104. Meatatarians untie!

It's a lifestyle choice. It requires discipline and dedication. I've actually managed to grow several spare brains. It's growing the extra skull that's giving me problems, so I keep one spare at work and the other one in my gym locker.

:silly:

[sui generis]

110. Most childish thing about vegetarians and meatatarians

is everyone gotta think they're superior because of what they eat.

I'm guessing Micro Brain Syndrome is just a human trait, not food related.

[Th1onein]

112. I've known it for a while now, too.

WHY would we have receptors for fats in our stomach, that in turn cause the brain to make a chemical that tells us that we are "sated," and have had enough to eat, if fats, and particular animal fat, was not important? Arachidonic acid, which comes from red meat, is pro-inflammatory in our system, but it does not logically follow that we don't need it, or red meat, to keep our system functioning properly.

[jberryhill]

113. Doing ANYTHING incorrectly is not a good idea

I don't see the point here.

I'm not a vegetarian, but I perfectly well understand that a proper vegetarian diet is just fine.

[Critters2]

122. That article also says drinking alcohol has the same effect. Why wasn't THAT the subject of your OP?

It's called "spin". You do it well enough to write for the msm.

[AtomicKitten]

133. ... and bats in the belfry.

Pfffft. Go animals!

[yurbud]

141. thanks for telling me. Now I have to eat you.

[johnaries]

142. And all this time I thought it was the other way around.

:rofl:
SORRY! I just couldn't resist! I tried to stop myself, but my fingers just kept typing!
:evilgrin:
Go ahead, Flame me. I deserve it!
:hide:

[retread]

151. Oh crap, oh crap!! Wait a minute, you said BRAIN shrinkage. (Sighs in relief.) n/t

[Regret My New Name]

153. I tend to doubt this study...

I actually tend to doubt any study though... I mean, I think read similar study that eating red meat raises your cholesterol. YEAH RIGHT!!

But seriously, I don't really buy it because it almost always seems as if most 'studies' have an agenda if you look into them... Oh yeah, I'm a meat eater who loves giving vegetarians a hard time for their backward brain shrinking food choices. ;)

[alfredo]

160. Lacto-ovo is the way to go. Then don't be strict about it. If you desire

some baked fish, don't deny yourself. Just keep in mind: eat low on the food chain. Fruits, veggies, and grains should be the focus, meat should be eaten sparingly. When I eat red meat, it is to add flavor, texture, and color. It shouldn't be the focus.

[Raine]

163. How insulting, WHY would you "suspected as much"...

are you insinuating that you fellow DUers who are vegetarians are stupid? :-(

[Ilsa]

164. In other breaking news, drinking bleach could be bad for your health, too. nt

[burrowowl]

166. Doesn't seem to have harmed Dennis Kucinich's brain function

Bu$h and Mc$ame seem to be not too bright, etc.

[sui generis]

167. I'd also add that vegans seem to be more aggressive

ESPECIALLY if you discuss vegetarianism without properly lauding its adherents and the consumption of non-animal matter.

It's all kookie to me - you're only "inferior" for your food choices if you believe it, not for saying it.