Umm... Looks like the stock market isn't collapsing

[Geek_Girl]

Stocks are rebounding.

Oh my god you mean this isn't the end of the world.

For all you doom sayers looks like you've been had!

http://money.cnn.com/

[YOY]

1. Keep watching.

It's not over yet and the folks at CNN Money are allaying fears for a reason.

Keep watching. It's not over yet.

[snappyturtle]

Link to keep watching:

http://money.cnn.com/data/markets/dow/

[lib2DaBone]

68. with 2 hours to go... stocks bounce back.. up 350 pts.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/us-stocks-bounce-back-bargain/story.aspx?guid=%7B571E298A%2D965E%2D4306%2DAA44%2D357B7706C390%7D

[YOY]

70. Keep watching...

n.t.

[Critters2]

83. Yeah. Some day the world is going to end.

Not today, though.


Hey! Tell me to keep watching again! :eyes:

[YOY]

90. Yes I am.

Because anyone who thinks it is going to bounce back in a day and comparing me to some street corner apocalyptic prophet for saying something I have been saying is going to happen can kiss my top-school MBA ass. Save your snark unless you've got some proof other than a single day's bounceback.

It's going to keep going down. It spikes up and then continues its trend. It hasn't hit rock bottom yet. There is too much going on in too many companies for this to end well.

I've been ridiculed in my profession for saying this and not submitting to being a conservative "Reaganomics Works" freak. I am not wrong about this.

This country has too many eggs in too few baskets and we've been letting them make baskets out of substandard material so they can get more eggs.

[Critters2]

96. It's up +300 pts. I'd better start panicking! Puhleeze. nt

[YOY]

99. You are being an imbecile.

It's one fucking day. You really have no idea how this works do you? It goes down two and up one and down three and bottoms out then down again.

[Critters2]

103. But, but, but....it was all supposed to collapse 2 fucking weeks ago!!

Chicken Little. :eyes:

[YOY]

105. Better than Baby Huey

Who the fuck said anything about two weeks ago? Have you ever taken a finance or economics class in your life???

"Chicken little" implies something could be done about it now...not now.

[davekriss]

113. Um

Some would think a 25% decline from its peak before the mortgage crisis is a collapse. Certainly a historic bear market. The question is how far will it fall while playing out these last weeks of Bush Limbo.

[YOY]

116. I think she understands the situation about as well as most Americans.

Not at all and that anything but a Polyanna approach is playing "Chicken Little".

I've lived in the developing world...we've got a long hard fall ahead of us and ignoring the obvious ain't gonna fix it.

[chupacabranation]

143. Agreed. I'm not sure she knows exactly what she's talking about. n/t

[tavalon]

153. Yep, I'm rather amused (as amused as I can be while mortified),

by people's surprise at the bounceback today. It's called sell high, buy low. The vultures were out in force today, of course. I would have been even more scared if it dropped again today but I'm quite appropriately nervous and I don't have a dime in the stock market. Not directly, but we all have skin in this one, even if not directly.

As you know, this is more appropriately called market volatility, not rebound.

Am I for the bailout as it was put forth yesterday? No. Do I believe the government must step in, in some form or fashion? Hell yes.

[LaPera]

86. The rush for a bailout is BushCo corporate bullshit....No bailout fuck them!

[YOY]

92. Bailout or no...

It's going to happen.

[Critters2]

97. Some day.

I'm going to die some day, too.

And now that I've said so publicly, I'll look mighty omniscient when it happens!

[YOY]

101. Gonna be sooner than you think if you keep ignoring the truth.

Stick with critters sweetheart. Finance and economics elude you.

Hoovervilles will make a comeback and those of us who live out in the styx are going to start growing their own.

[LaPera]

118. Don't need this bailout let the market hurt a bit & adjust on it's own...it'll bounce back!

These Bush republican corporate fuckers are trying to bulldoze this bullshit plan through as fast as they can....Why?

You trust these republican cocksuckers?

[YOY]

119. No we don't need it. After the economy bottoms out. Yes it will bounce back.

It's got a long way to go before it bottoms out and the proverbial "night" is young.

The bailout isn't gonna do squat but give a few of the greedy bastards money to offshore so they can ride out the storm...a little late to play "Lou Pai" now.

[Virginia Dare]

2. Come back at 4:00 and do your victory dance..

if it doesn't collapse I will join you.

[YOY]

8. Try Friday...even then try at the end of October.

Give it all week. Rollercoaster on it's way down. A few bounces and bumps back up but that's not it...we're far from done here.

[SteelPenguin]

12. The end of October is going to be very big

I'm afraid we're looking at a month of ups and downs and doomsayers and naysayers, and who knows what will get done. If commercial paper and credits dry up and small businesses across the country close their doors at the end of October because they can't make payroll...Well, I hope it doesn't come to that. Hopefully we can get a solution in place before then.

[Virginia Dare]

16. Oh yeah, this is going to be a long ride...n/t

[YOY]

138. And don't forget what tomorrow is my fellow DCer...

Start of the new Fiscal Year...wonder how things will work out or if it will even come into play.

[CreekDog]

3. Did the credit problems go away? Is credit available for small and large business?

computer says nooooo.

there is such a thing as a respite.

[gravity]

4. Traders are expecting the bailout will still pass

They want a piece of the upside

[earthside]

5. Capitulation!

Formation of a bottom!

Buy! Buy! Buy!

Robust profits in 2009!

Housing values through the roof next year!

:sarcasm:

The commission comedians on CNBC are out in force this morning.

[Tammie]

6. We'll see if it holds.

But I'd bet things settle down a bit until Congress is back in session. Then Wall Street can throw a temper tantrum again.

[Theres-a]

7. Ummm,no.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4126010&mesg_id=4126010

[SteelPenguin]

9. Wow

The problems still exist. What we're seeing now is short covering and people looking to buy in after a steep drop. The same problems remain in short term credits and commercial paper, that are the ACTUAL problem at the moment, regardless of what number you're currently seeing next to DOW. If something isn't done to grease the credit wheels more banks will fail, and then small businesses start closing and the real panic starts.

[stray cat]

10. credit contraction - lets not do anything and we will see what happens

Its a great plan for health care lets use it for the economy. Medical intervention is too expensive lets just see if the patient dies first.

[Unvanguard]

13. It's quite Hoover-esque, really. n/t

[girl gone mad]

21. I think the argument is..

Let's not do something awful in the name of Panic.

TARP throws good money after bad with nothing for people who are hurting. I think our problems go much deeper than 700BB, which is why it is so urgent that we use the money responsibility.

[stray cat]

23. That argument I completely agree with - but thats different than saying there is no problem

[Unvanguard]

11. The market overreacted yesterday, I think, and people realize it.

But this is far from over yet.

[Geek_Girl]

14. I agree the market gave a knee jerk reaction yesterday

nt

[Unvanguard]

18. More to the point, if they don't put together any kind of bailout plan within the next few weeks

things might still get very bad.

[annabanana]

28. What about if we wait until January 21st? . . .n/t

[Unvanguard]

57. The longer the wait, the greater the risk. But I have no idea as to the specifics of the timeframe.

And I would be very skeptical of anyone who claims to.

[Realityhack]

75. Well we can say that after Jan 1. it would definitely effect Q1.

Honestly I think we can say that is too long to wait.

But I do not think their is a hard and fast deadline as such.

[Unvanguard]

148. Hmm, fair enough.

Certainly there are hard and fast dates that will have an influence on how this will play out.

[BuyingThyme]

15. Ridiculous. Why would Bush ask for emergency legislation

were it not for the fact that weezzall gonna die?

[Critters2]

85. Yeah. If there's one thing we can expect from this administration,

it's being calm and steady.

[2speak]

17. Come one come all

ride the psychological roller coaster ride. Just when you think it's going down your going up. When you think it's going to turn one way it turns another way. The longest ride in the park and when you think it's over it isn't. Don't believe what your hearin folks it's the greatest ride in the world. Not scary at all but fun fun fun. Forget about what the media says about it being unsafe it's not true. It has flashing lights and bells with lots of excitement. People yelling with anticipation and fear, the best roller coaster ride on the planet. Don't be left out, join the rich and invest your life savings today, put your money up and ride the psychological roller coaster ride now.

[understandinglife]

19. The Hang Seng changed direction, before closing up, and S&P Futures rose upon ...

.... word that a new piece of legislation was being prepared by Congress and the WH.

And,

Obama issued a statement Tuesday saying lawmakers should not start from scratch as they weigh their next move.

The Illinois senator said that significantly increasing federal deposit insurance would help small businesses and make the U.S. banking system more secure as well as restore public confidence in the nation's financial system.

Obama also said further inaction would be catastrophic for the economy and for American families.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080930/financial_meltdown.html

The situation is not going to improve by doing nothing and, as each day passes, Obama and the Democratic members of Congress can shape, more and more, legislation that will begin to re-structure our economy. The more they move in that direction the hotter the seat for the Republicans.

[blueclown]

20. The DOW isn't the be-all-end-all indicator of the market.

Look at the credit markets. Look at how banks are about to start constricting credit.

[Geek_Girl]

22. It jumped 250 points in the first 1.5 hours

Sorry no market meltdown today. All you doom sayers are full of it.

[kick-ass-bob]

32. Umm

not to burst your bubble, but this is not a surprise, nor is it an indicator of 'things are A-ok!'

If I had a bunch of cash to invest that I wouldn't need for 10-15 years, I would be all over this as well. That's (part of) what you are seeing.

The true indication of the market is what it looks like at week's end (and beyond). And even then, thinking the stock market is any sort of 'good' economic indicator is highly suspect. The stock market is a very emotional being, and constantly reacts to 'news'.

Economies do not react to 'news' - they respond to facts.

[cali]

48. sorry, this is a classic, and I do mean classic, dead cat bounce.

From Wiki:

"A dead cat bounce is a term used by traders in the finance industry to describe a pattern wherein a spectacular decline in the price of a stock is immediately followed by a moderate and temporary rise before resuming its downward movement, with the connotation that the rise was not an indication of improving circumstances in the fundamentals of the stock. It is derived from the notion that "even a dead cat will bounce if it falls from a great height"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_cat_bounce

[Javaman]

24. one day rise does not make a market come back.

in the mean time I would suggest you clean your rose colored glasses.

[Geek_Girl]

27. Um yes it does

Markets rise and markets fall. That's generally how the markets work. Long term they go up.

Yesterday the market over-reacted, Now it's adjusting to that reaction.

[Javaman]

39. so the 20%+ drop in the market over the last year is a rise?

go away, you are clearly delirious.

[tama]

46. What goes up

must come down. Unless you are able to change the laws of physics and invent perpetum mobile.

This is peak civilization, ideology of growth meeting the limits of growth, and the downhill has began.

[tama]

47. What goes up

must come down. Unless you are able to change the laws of physics and invent perpetum mobile.

This is peak civilization, ideology of growth meeting the limits of growth, and the downhill has began.

[Realityhack]

63. Stocks != Markets.

The stock plummet was a symptom of an entirely different problem. And after a drop like that you would expect almost regardless of the situation to see a bump as people grab what they think is undervalued.

Plus their have been a couple of minor stop gap measures.

But the underlying problem remains. Even if it is fixed we will be in for a bumpy ride. The longer it goes unfixed the worse the ride will be.

[Fran Kubelik]

76. you would be wise to not talk like you're an authority about things you're not all that well-versed

on.

[Phillycat]

80. Amen.

:thumbsup:

[Geek_Girl]

102. So the stock market didn't jump 400 points today

I must be living in an alternate reality then. One where I can't access my ATM and can't get a credit card and my family's business is going under. NOT!

[Fran Kubelik]

104. I don't want to be a jerk, but you're under 25, right?

[lukasahero]

140. Do you realize how much you sound like Sarah Palin in this post?

Drop the snark and maybe you'll get a little less flak for your opinions.

[prolesunited]

25. It recovered on assurances

that some sort of bill will still be passed.

I think you're the one who's going to be had. Perhaps you can start practicing your happy dance for when it tanks.

[2speak]

29. You hit the nail on the head

it recovered on assurances. So the problem is people need confidence in the system for it to be OK? Not money? Just assurance. OK here it is. Everything will be fine.

[Geek_Girl]

30. I disagree the market is adjusting from yesterdays over reaction

nt

[Pathwalker]

33. Not according to CNBC. They're saying there are "promises that a bill WILL pass"

that are being made behind the scenes. IOW, investors are being given assurances that a bill will pass on Thursday. If it doesn't they say there will be another bloodbath. What do you know that they don't? Do you have some behind the scene knowledge you can share?

[Realityhack]

65. It is probably both.

Yes it is doing a natural rebound after yesterday. But without at least some belief that some type of action will be taken it would probably be a smaller bump.

[Just Visiting]

59. Actually, yesterday it had dropped 300+ points in the period of time

when EVERYONE thought the giveaway was in place, i.e. BEFORE the vote.

All that is happening now is that vultures are buying. It really has very little to do with any type of assurance.

It WILL tank again, however. The problems are in an area where the giveaway has little effect, and besides if 700B was going to make everything all credit rosy again how come Big Ben's shot of 630B yesterday didn't do jack to the credit problem?

Maybe because the last 15 or so times we tried it it didn't work either?

[TexasObserver]

26. but but but ... yesterday all the bailout posters said this is the END

Of course, that's why we laughed at their Chicken Little Act.

This market has a long way to go before it hits bottom, and it will continue its decline, because it has to decline and hit bottom before it recovers. Anyone who thinks $700 billion will fix this market is INSANE in the BRAIN.

[2speak]

31. I had a bucket with a hole in it

I just kept pouring water in. Someone told me it needed fixing but they were wrong I know. So I just kept pouring water in the bucket.

[scheming daemons]

38. You still think this has something to do with the stock market... how cute...

:eyes:

[TexasObserver]

144. You've proved that you understand absolutely nothing about this matter.

Hey, it's been 15 minutes since you last pissed your pants and started a thread about it. You'd better get busy.

[bobd0]

34. The suckers have been shaken out so gains can be taken before the bottom falls out.

If there is no bail out there will be a crash. The powers that be are just using this time given to them by McCain and the Republicans to run up the numbers and grab some profits.

Broad advance as investors scoop up select issues after previous session's 778-point slump on the Dow on bailout bust.

[2speak]

35. Guess who's money they are taking.

the everyday average Joe's money. He's always the last to take his money out or move it if he has any left. That is the irony that the system provides for the average American. You don't want to take your money out because if you did the thing would fall. They know that. They have you where they want you.

[bobd0]

51. Their taking money from the same people they always take it from

I know it's the average Joe's money. I know the average Joe investor doesn't have the resources to monitor the 401k or money market fund they invested in for their retirement, or the insider information needed to bail out before the market tanks. It's their ball and they decide when and how the game is played. We're just here to provide capital they can plunder, whether in the form of lost investments or bail outs.

[earth mom]

36. Must read thread....Evidence of collusion....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4128814

[scheming daemons]

37. The. crisis. has. nothing. to. do. with. the. stock. market.

Please... educate yourself.


The crisis is the credit freeze. Banks cannot loan to each other or to businesses because nobody can trust that the money is backed up by solid securities.

The "tainted meat" has contaminated all the meat.


The stock market volatility is a symptom, not the problem

[crazylikafox]

40. Bingo. And that situation appears to be worsening.

[Renew Deal]

44. The stock market is aware of the effects of the credit crisis.

It's kind of hard to argue that they are ignoring it.

[Realityhack]

77. Of course they aren't but that does not make it a direct indicator.

You can have a break in your fever and still be sick. It isn't a perfect direct indicator.
Their are many many factors beyond the credit issues that affect the stock market.
The underlying issue is still quite real. We know this because we can observe it directly.

[RainDog]

49. and the solution is simple

the only-slightly-modified Paulson plan is a recipe for further disaster. It is possible to create a plan that will deal with the credit issue without fucking over the poor and middle class yet more.

a national health insurance program would do wonders to create confidence in this nation's ability to understand and solve problems. But the problem is that you and others on this board who keep insisting we have no room to negotiate or to demand a better deal are the problem.

fuck that.

the problem is STILL the greedy fuckers who will not take responsibility for their actions and accept some major consequences. the sky is not going to fail if Paulson does not get his no-oversight fiefdom - the Bushies have to accept that they cannot have their way on this. until then, THEY continue to create this problem, not those who oppose his plan.

This whole blame the victim mentality by you and others here is really telling. Spend your time working to get republicans to accept reality, not pile on people here.

oh, and btw, your "demographic guess" is also totally wrong. have kids. have job (and have new masters and nice shiny skills and am sending out resumes) have money in the market (tho much less than previously- because I paid attention and accepted the fuck ups had screwed us all and made some sacrifices in order to protect myself from them - divorced, not single. And I also have a sense of decency and know who needs to step up and take responsibility and it's not those here on DU who suffered through all this trickle-down bullshit for years. (I'm not one of those, either, btw).

So go tell your brother-in-law or whoever to call the White House and tell the Bushies the gig is up. then you'll have credit flowing because we will no longer allow the looting of the treasure that has gone on for 8 years.

[Renew Deal]

41. The only reason it dropped 777 points yesterday was that it was over inflated for a week.

The bailout announcement bounced the Dow around 500-600 points. The bailout disappeared and so did the bubble.

[tjwash]

42. The big traders are buying back the stock they dumped, and at a tremendous bargain to boot.

Looks like the upper 1 percent get to profit twice from their seedy little manipulations. Regular folks like us would go to prison for trying that.

[thewiseguy]

43. You obviously do not know much about the markets

Even though yesterday's news was very bad, the market is already anticipating that there will be a bailout bill.

[PVnRT]

45. It was colder than normal today; therefore there is no global warming

[SidDithers]

50. What a perfect analogy...

:applause:

Sid

[prayin4rain]

67. But they were saying that if we didn't give them the money IMMEDIATELY

then all hell was gonna break lose. And that was the reason why there was no time to think about anything rationally... it had to be NOW, NOW, NOW.... sign NOW! They were saying if you don't destroy your car in the next few days then it would mean disastrous climate change by what...end of last week I think they started out saying.

[guitar man]

52. dead cat bounce nt

[AlphaCentauri]

53. it did sound like spanish Gato

[guitar man]

56. hehe

I got the tranlation from bablefish, then when I turned it around and ran it through the other way, I got "died goodbye of the cat" :rofl:

so I thought I'd beyyer just stick to English :D

[Just Visiting]

54. Not today, anyway

Maybe even not next month.

It is, however, always a good idea to look beyond one's nose every once in a while.

If I were you, I'd keep an eye on China and a nifty little phrase called "dollar swapping."

Just because one eats once a month on the second Tuesday doesn't mean that one will not eventually starve to death.

All is well, of course, if you look at the world through second Tuesdays.

[Critters2]

93. Yeah. Some day something bad will happen.

And then you'll look like an expert. :eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

55. It isn't? I haven't been watching.

I'm still worried about Saddam's missles which are 15 minutes away from landing in NY.

[Geek_Girl]

58. Wow looky there the stock market is up 350 points!

so much for the markets collapsing. :eyes:

[scheming daemons]

60. See post #37.... the crisis has nothing to do with the stock market.

Educate yourself.

[Geek_Girl]

61. The stock market has everything to do with the bail out!

nt

[scheming daemons]

73. No... it DOESN'T. The CREDIT market has everything to do with the bailout.....

The stock market is ancillary.


You are buying into far-left and far-right wing sound bytes.

[Javaman]

79. man, you really love bringing a butter knife to a gun fight don't you? LOL

:rofl:

[Realityhack]

88. I thought it was a spork n/t

[Realityhack]

89. BTW the correct use of n/t is to put it at the end of the title.

The idea is to tell people they don't need to click through as there is no text in the post itself.

[Common Sense Party]

122. Please explain, because that makes no sense. n/t

[romulusnr]

62. because they thing the bailout might actually happen

and when it doesn't, again, they will fall, again.

Fuck all this shit. Stocks go up if we give the market free money? Stocks go down if we don't? There's word for that, it's fucking extortion, and we're all fucking stupid for living under it.

[prayin4rain]

64. yeah haha by a matter of days apparently they now meant matter of weeks

:eyes: ........or maybe months.... fear mongers

[TZ]

66. Thats like saying its a extra cold day here in the Midatlantic

That means global warming doesn't exist!
Christ look at the underlying trends MORE banks have failed in the last few days..Thats SHOULD be telling you folks something. We didn't get into this CRISIS in one day and we aren't going to get out of it in ONE day.
Who is to say the market won't go down 1,000 points tomorrow.

[Geek_Girl]

71. No it means the stock market hasn't crashed

and the doomsayers were full of shit!

[Realityhack]

74. Not only is that wrong. It is also irrelevant.

The stock market is not the issue. The credit market is the issue. The stock market is a semi-symptom. Like your temperature is. Your fever can break with you still sick.

Keep in mind this is about a 50% gain back on the largest one day drop in history. Even a dead cat bounce would do that.

I don't expect the market to fall a million points tomorrow. But I also know the crisis is real and the effects will be quite real as well.

[Javaman]

82. arguing with geek is like trying to convince a Bedouin that there is snow.

she won't get it.

[Realityhack]

87. seems there are a number of people here...

who do not want to understand what the so called 'bail out' is all about.
It honestly isn't that hard to understand.

[Common Sense Party]

124. There are none so blind as those who will not see. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

Oh she will

when it finally affects her... in the flesh

[Javaman]

111. Very true. I like to call it the boomarang effect. :) nt

[Realityhack]

141. No that will be blamed on something else. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

169. Minorities perhaps? People with funny accents?

them damn (insert religion here)... I know

This is an American tradition...

[nadinbrzezinski]

108. Oh she will

when it finally affects her... in the flesh

[Javaman]

155. nt

[Javaman]

81. whoops, wrong person lol nt

[spanone]

69. people are buying up the cheap bargain basement sales from yesterday....give it time

[leftofthedial]

72. the whole thing is as phony as the WMD crisis they used to lead us into Iraq

This system sucks and screws Americans on a daily basis, but it's not collapsing. Markets are cyclical and downturns are inevitable.

The biggest downside is the deep recession that repuke monetary policy has steadily worsened and worsened and worsened while they incrementally delayed it for the short term by printing more and more dollars and cheapening credit every month or quarter for the last 20 years.

Now they've destroyed the credit market, so the recession can't be artificially delayed any longer. Batten down your hatches. A serious recession is here and it's not going away just because some rich guys give a trillion of your grandkids' dollars to some other rich guys this week or next week or early next year. This won't end until a new baseline is set for the markets and until "demand-side" economics take control from the thieves once more. The US economic engine is bottom up: demand drives everything. Repukes have starved the engine for all but a few years of the last 30.

The "bailout" is not intended as a fix--nothing short of radical re-regulation or better yet nationalization of the markets will fix the problems with this phony bubble economy. The bailout is just a way of using this "crisis" they have created and inflamed in order to steal more money before the repukes are out of office for another generation. Even Americans aren't stupid enough to miss the fact that repukes have once again all but destroyed the middle class.

[diamidue]

110. Repukes??

"The bailout is just a way of using this "crisis" they have created and inflamed in order to steal more money before the repukes are out of office"

Then why did more Democrats vote for it than "repukes"? I honestly cannot figure this out. With their constituents contacting them at 100 to 1 against this bail-out, a full 140 Democrats voted FOR it.

[leftofthedial]

126. that's what I asked yesterday and got almost no response

DU post

why did they overwhelmingly support Iraq War and PATRIOT Act and extenstions to the PATRIOT Act and repeated gigantic checks to king george for the continued illegal occupation of Iraq?

:shrug:

that's why I call them "democrats."

[Phillycat]

78. The thing is, you don't really know anything about economics. You sound very uneducated.

It's nothing to be ashamed of; most Americans have no idea what's going on right now.

Here are three facts you might want to explore:

1. This current crisis is about credit, specifically creditors loaning to one another.

2. This current crisis is NOT about the stock market. The stock market is but a symptom.

3. There is no way for the U.S. economy (not to mention the U.K.'s and most of the rest of the world's) to continue the way it's been for the past nearly 30 years. What just happened was an end of a period of economic history.

Below is an article to start understanding the scope of what's happening. It doesn't explain everything, but it's a good starting point to begin educating yourself. Because right now, you're actually being patronizing about a subject you don't understand at all, and it's very unattractive.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/28/business/28melt.html?em

[Geek_Girl]

84. Sorry peddle your BS somewhere else

You folks said the markets would collapse, that I wouldn't be able to access my ATM, that I wouldn't be able to use my credit card as of Friday. The market jumped 400 points today. The markets did not collapse and my job, home and family are perfectly fine. My father business is doing well.

Now the doom sayers give it till the end of this week. You know I didn't buy it last week and I sure as hell don't buy it this week.

[Phillycat]

98. I never said any of those things.

I only said the current crisis isn't about the stock market, and you look silly saying it is. Just trying to help you not look like a moron. I'll bow out gracefully now...

[nadinbrzezinski]

I know you have a PhD in economics that is far superior to Paul Krugman

and others who ACTUALLY HACE A CLUE

They said that in a credit crunch that is a very real possibility

By the way I stand by it... and suffice it say yesterday I SAW a local merchant REJECT a WAMU Card holder, and they have ORDERS not to accept any affected banks already

By the way... do RESEARCH what a credit crunch does

Now if this makes you happy, it is up for the DAY

And the losses since its height mean nothing, happy days are here again

By the way, you are aware that the State of Massachusetts was denied credit today? Why do you think that is?

[Geek_Girl]

114. I respect Paul Krugman but there are other PHD's and economist that agree with me as well

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=95076180

[nadinbrzezinski]

Yeah must of them are Chicago Boys who were chomping at the bit

for an IMF style program

[nadinbrzezinski]

121. Yeah must of them are Chicago Boys who were chomping at the bit

for an IMF style program

[nadinbrzezinski]

106. I know you have a PhD in economics that is far superior to Paul Krugman

and others who ACTUALLY HACE A CLUE

They said that in a credit crunch that is a very real possibility

By the way I stand by it... and suffice it say yesterday I SAW a local merchant REJECT a WAMU Card holder, and they have ORDERS not to accept any affected banks already

By the way... do RESEARCH what a credit crunch does

Now if this makes you happy, it is up for the DAY

And the losses since its height mean nothing, happy days are here again

By the way, you are aware that the State of Massachusetts was denied credit today? Why do you think that is?

[BrklynLiberal]

109. I looks like Michael Moore agrees with you...

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?id=236

Tuesday, September 30th, 2008
Congratulations, Corporate Crime Fighters! Coup Averted for Three Days! ...from Michael Moore

Friends,

Everyone said the bill would pass. The masters of the universe were already making celebratory dinner reservations at Manhattan's finest restaurants. Personal shoppers in Dallas and Atlanta were dispatched to do the early Christmas gifting. Mad Men of Chicago and Miami were popping corks and toasting each other long before the morning latte run.

But what they didn't know was that hundreds of thousands of Americans woke up yesterday morning and decided it was time for revolt. The politicians never saw it coming. Millions of phone calls and emails hit Congress so hard it was as if Marshall Dillon, Elliot Ness and Dog the Bounty Hunter had descended on D.C. to stop the looting and arrest the thieves.

The Corporate Crime of the Century was halted by a vote of 228 to 205. It was rare and historic; no one could remember a time when a bill supported by the president and the leadership of both parties went down in defeat. That just never happens.

A lot of people are wondering why the right wing of the Republican Party joined with the left wing of the Democratic Party in voting down the thievery. Forty percent of Democrats and two-thirds of Republicans voted against the bill.

Here's what happened:

The presidential race may still be close in the polls, but the Congressional races are pointing toward a landslide for the Democrats. Few dispute the prediction that the Republicans are in for a whoopin' on November 4th. Up to 30 Republican House seats could be lost in what would be a stunning repudiation of their agenda.

The Republican reps are so scared of losing their seats, when this "financial crisis" reared its head two weeks ago, they realized they had just been handed their one and only chance to separate themselves from Bush before the election, while doing something that would make them look like they were on the side of "the people."

Watching C-Span yesterday morning was one of the best comedy shows I'd seen in ages. There they were, one Republican after another who had backed the war and sunk the country into record debt, who had voted to kill every regulation that would have kept Wall Street in check -- there they were, now crying foul and standing up for the little guy! One after another, they stood at the microphone on the House floor and threw Bush under the bus, under the train (even though they had voted to kill off our nation's trains, too), heck, they would've thrown him under the rising waters of the Lower Ninth Ward if they could've conjured up another hurricane. You know how your dog acts when sprayed by a skunk? He howls and runs around trying to shake it off, rubbing and rolling himself on every piece of your carpet, trying to get rid of the stench. That's what it looked like on the Republican side of the aisle yesterday, and it was a sight to behold.

The 95 brave Dems who broke with Barney Frank and Chris Dodd were the real heroes, just like those few who stood up and voted against the war in October of 2002. Watch the remarks from yesterday of Reps. Marcy Kaptur, Sheila Jackson Lee, and Dennis Kucinich. They spoke the truth.

The Dems who voted for the giveaway did so mostly because they were scared by the threats of Wall Street, that if the rich didn't get their handout, the market would go nuts and then it's bye-bye stock-based pension and retirement funds.

And guess what? That's exactly what Wall Street did! The largest, single-day drop in the Dow in the history of the New York Stock exchange. The news anchors last night screamed it out: Americans just lost 1.2 trillion dollars in the stock market!! It's a financial Pearl Harbor! The sky is falling! Bird flu! Killer Bees!

Of course, sane people know that nobody "lost" anything yesterday, that stocks go up and down and this too shall pass because the rich will now buy low, hold, then sell off, then buy low again.

But for now, Wall Street and its propaganda arm (the networks and media it owns) will continue to try and scare the bejesus out of you. It will be harder to get a loan. Some people will lose their jobs. A weak nation of wimps won't last long under this torture. Or will we? Is this our line in the sand?

Here's my guess: The Democratic leadership in the House secretly hoped all along that this lousy bill would go down. With Bush's proposals shredded, the Dems knew they could then write their own bill that favors the average American, not the upper 10% who were hoping for another kegger of gold.

So the ball is in the Democrats' hands. The gun from Wall Street remains at their head. Before they make their next move, let me tell you what the media kept silent about while this bill was being debated:

1. The bailout bill had NO enforcement provisions for the so-called oversight group that was going to monitor Wall Street's spending of the $700 billion;

2. It had NO penalties, fines or imprisonment for any executive who might steal any of the people's money;

3. It did NOTHING to force banks and lenders to rewrite people's mortgages to avoid foreclosures -- this bill would not have stopped ONE foreclosure!;

4. It had NO teeth anywhere in the entire piece of legislation, using words like "suggested" when referring to the government being paid back for the bailout;

5. Over 200 economists wrote to Congress and said this bill might actually WORSEN the "financial crisis" and cause even MORE of a meltdown.

Put a fork in this slab of pork. It's over. Now it is time for our side to state very clearly the laws WE want passed. I will send you my proposals later today. We've bought ourselves less than 72 hours.

[Geek_Girl]

117. Great Minds think alike

nt

[diamidue]

115. doom sayers

Rome did not fall in a day.

The problem is not an acute crisis but a continuing deterioration of the financial markets - and it is global. Just because things did not fall apart yesterday does not mean that it could not happen at any time. We are still in crisis mode. Personally I think it will play out over a course of months - gradually worsening & I am taking it seriously and taking steps to protect my assets.

[nadinbrzezinski]

128. Well the stock exchange DID crash yesterday

and just like 1929... things really did not get bad until... in that case the 1931 bank failures

This has been taking shape over the last year AT LEAST... and historians will have lots of fun doing the time line for this

[Critters2]

91. If the crisis isn't about the market, why were people running back and forth

telling members of Congress what was happening with the stock market while they were voting?

Right. It's about the market, until the market says there's no crisis. Then it isn't about the market.

The important thing is that we all know there's a CRISIS!!

Let me know when you find those WMD.

[Phillycat]

100. Because members of Congress don't understand what's going on either.

Do you actually find that difficult to believe?

[Realityhack]

94. up 420 right now and still irrelevant n/t

[doyourealize1]

95. It's chilly outside. Global warming must be a scam promulgated by the liberal media!!

[girl gone mad]

172. "Global Warming is a crisis, so let's give 700 Billion to big oil..

and hopefully they will fix it."

That's a more accurate Global Warming analogy.

[ecstatic]

107. Yeah. Maybe we should give them a tiny bit more rope

to see what they will do. The problem may be self correcting. Let everyone reorganize and merge. I am kind of undecided on this because I don't trust Bush, yet I am one of the people who can't sell my home and am watching my equity decrease.

[davekriss]

112. It's known as the Dead Cat Bounce

A cat, dropped from a distance, will bounce when it hits tha ground.

I was telling colleagues yesterday that the market would rise 300-400 points as many with cash in hand would see yesterday as a buying opportunity. Note, however, if they pass a bailout bill on Thursday (the re-vote), the Dow will rise again to 11,500-11,800 before continuing its slow unwinding to this cycle's bottom.

We still face a severe credit contraction, rising inventories, steeply rising unemployment -- we are in the first quarter of a rather nasty recession. Count on it.

Dow 8500. That will indeed be a buying opportunity!

[Common Sense Party]

120. This is one day. One day. And we haven't made up much more

than half what it dropped yesterday. (It will likely be down tomorrow, after all the panicky mutual fund shareholders' sell orders are processed after market close--many people will want to take their money and run.)

If there isn't some sort of a sensible bailout/liquidity fix soon (next few weeks), then companies in all sorts of industries will start scaling back, laying off, canceling orders. Then you can tell me where the Dow is.

[Geek_Girl]

123. So what is the cut off date for the Doomsday prediction?

I've been told it was all going to collapse last week, then told I can declare victory at 4:00 today, and now I've been told give it till the end of the month. So really when is this cut off date for this great collapse to happen. Seriously. It didn't happen Friday of last week. It didn't happen today. So what is the cut off day for doomsday?

[Common Sense Party]

127. I don't predict Doomsday. All I know is that the ripples from inaction

can and will spread throughout the whole economy as a result of a lack of liquidity. But an economy is like the Titanic. It doesn't stop or change directions on a dime. It's a $14 trillion boat, and it takes a while for all the effects to be seen. Here we are, several months into an economic slowdown, and no one has "oficially" called this a "recession" yet.

I'm curious why you're so eager to claim "victory."

[Geek_Girl]

133. I just want to know when this disastrous collapse is suppose to happen

I was just told by you the markets will drop tomorrow. I was told by Bushco last week. The point is when the hell is this fear mongering going to stop a day, a week, a year?
As far as I'm concerned we're in a recession and have been for a long time. The only difference now is some richie riches get to join the rest of us.

[Common Sense Party]

137. I don't predict the market. If I could, I sure wouldn't be sharing my

secrets here.

At any rate, it's not the market I care about.

It's the overall economy. If you think this liquidity crisis is only going to affect "some richie riches," then you're going to be sorely disappointed.

[Critters2]

129. That's the beauty of open-ended predictions.

If it EVER happens, the great sages can say "I told you so". They're probably still holding out hope for finding those WMDs. I mean, there must be SOME place they haven't look yet.

[LaPera]

125. Bullshit....You believe Bush's & these corporate fuckers pushing it so hard...

and fast...after all of Bush's lies you happen to believe this bullshit they are pushing "no questions asked, please, pass it in a hurry"....These are the same lying assholes we've had for eight years wanting to make a killing off our taxes which they expected and now you want to believe them....the market will adjust without a fucking doubt probably even go higher...

I'm with a liberal point of view as is Kucinich....we know Obama is a moderate certainly not a liberal...no liberal would be pushing for this bailout bullshit bill!

Fuck this socialism only for the rich, let people keep their homes, the corporations
have defaulted & forfeited, stemming from their own greedy deregulation that the republicans have been demanding for over thirty years. The republicans have never seen a monopoly they didn't love & encourage...."Too big to fail" fuck that, let them fail!

Even with a bailout, this is just the beginning of a huge financial collapse that Bushco is just more than happy to put off on the next prez....it's going to get mean and far uglier, with over 10 trillion in debt, growing everyday. Foreign wars & occupations sucking us dry domestically .

Workers, middle class, the poor are going to hurt and be hit hard and it's coming...You can't run an economy as the BushCo corporate thieves have for eight long years and not expect a catastrophe...the greedy ignorant republicans will be hurting as well...but they'll keep pointing the fingers that Limbaugh & Fox news tells them to, at the democrats!

We are going to go through far worst shit because of these republican bastards very shortly...So fuck their Bail Out it's just a band-aid anyway for what's coming....We've got some heavy shit waiting for us when the BushCo thieves leave, if they leave....Why should we bail out these filthy rich fuckers....They selfishly deregulated, their insatiable greed intensified beyond imagination, while always counting on, and knowing our taxes would bail them out as a bonus the lying, devouring pigs...So Fuck Them!!

In any case, this is just the beginning, the tip of the iceberg!

Call your congressperson to vote NO on this bullshit corporate bailout!

[Common Sense Party]

130. The market WILL go higher eventually, with or without a bailout.

Of that, I have no doubt.

I just don't want to see millions more Americans out of work, thousands of businesses closing their doors, because of a do-nothing Congress. It was a do-nothing government that made the effects of the Great Depression more severe than they had to be.

[LaPera]

134. You're seeing just the tip of the iceberg....You think we aren't in deep, deep

financial trouble ahead? With or without this bullshit bailout. Bush isn't telling us shit, jobs are going to be lost no matter what even if we give these thieves their ransom bailout money....These fuckers are throwing this at us us to rake in the money their last BushCo rip-off and money has stopped flowing in for the ten trillion plus debt Bush is leaving us with....

You think this is it? That if we bail these corporate fucks out we are out of it? Why would anyone want to give these thieves more of our tax dollars....You don't see what's ahead...Bush's Fed just threw 630 billion in the pot, the bailout is bullshit. Extortion is what it is, and BushCo as always are lying and trying to steal more of of money....this bailout is going to help one bit....and the jobs are going to be lost because of Bush's & the republicans eight years of stealing, no regulations war for profits and they want to intentionally destroy our social programs & system...

The bailout is BULLSHIT!

[Common Sense Party]

136. If the "bail out" is done correctly, it should not cost taxpayers

it should benefit. Please look up the Swedish "bailout" of the early 1990s.

I don't trust the current people that would be managing the rescue, and I do not support the bill as is, but a sensible action is needed.

[BrklynLiberal]

131. You MUST check out what Dennis Kucinich has to say about this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=201600&mesg_id=201600

[LaPera]

135. Kucinich is absolutely correct. He's a progressive and no real progressive would vote for this

current republican corporate BushCo rush job bill. It's corporate written bullshit and people are believing these lying assholes, amazing.

It's certainly not going to help the workers, the poor, the middle-class BushCo and the corporations don't give one shit about them....this bill is meant (as are ALL Bush & republicans actions) only for the wealthy and the corporations benefit.

[NeedleCast]

132. +1 For the "I'm basing my argument on a single day of the market" crowd

never fucking ends....

[Geek_Girl]

139. So what is the cut off for the Doomsday scenario?

It wasn't last week, it wasn't today. So Is it tomorrow? Is tomorrow the day when the markets collapse and I can't access my ATM card. Is it Friday, is it Oct 30?

Oh ye oracle of economic fortune telling. Tell me when the markets collapse and the world ends.

[TheWatcher]

147. He's too busy feeling good about the lovely Rose Colored Tint that

He sees all around him.

A Magic 8-Ball would serve better.

[NeedleCast]

162. I'm not predicting a dooms-day scenario and never have been

What I am saying is that both sides of this argument continue to base their opinions on single days of market activity, which is stupid. Beleive me, the chicken littles annoy me as much as they annoy you, but your arugment that the market was up 500 yesterday is no more an indication of the overall condition of the economy than their argument that the market was down 700 on Monday is a sign of the end times.

That being said, the overall trend in the market is very bad and the overall condition of the economy isn't much better. I don't think this is any sort of dooms day scenario but reality is the economy is in the toilet and that means hard times for a lot of folks.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

142. Note that the dollar is holding steady, even rising a bit since yesterday

against the euro, the pound, and the yen.

Do the currency traders perhaps realize that a 700 billion dollar no-strings bailout, which would require either more borrowing or printing money, would have exacerbated inflation?

[Geek_Girl]

146. That is one of my major concerns with this bail out

weakening of the dollar.

[Raine]

145. People buying up bargains

doesn't mean anything has improved.

[philly_bob]

149. This thread is unusually unpleasant.

I'm an expert, you're uneducated, you don't know what you're talking about.

GIVE ME A BREAK.

OP expressed what many of us thought when we saw the market go up today.

Interesting how this economic issue is splitting both Republicans and Democrats.

[Geek_Girl]

150. It is unpleasant but I think people are very afraid

Unfortunately I think the fear mongering is working and the senate will push this bill through.

[tavalon]

151. One day does not a problem make

It was nerve wracking to watch but I suspected it would go up. Vultures love to buy low, but I think the next couple of weeks are where we will get information to assess things more accurately.

[BlooInBloo]

152. Look! It's COLD today! I guess you global-warming "doom sayers" have been had!

Fools.

[Geek_Girl]

154. Actually it was pretty hot today

nt

[Javaman]

156. oh ouch! dow down 160. so what says you now, geek? nt

[2speak]

157. What are all of you

going to say when it drops some time after the bailout. When you realize you have been had.

[Marsala]

159. The stock market's ups and downs don't mean all that much

Only long term trends are really important. The 777 point drop was just a brief panic caused by the anxiety over the bailout's failure.

[pnutbutr]

163. It may drop a bit

but will not be anywhere near the drop that we will see if we continue to sit on our asses and do nothing except say it's going to be fine over and over again.

[supernova]

158. They rallied because they think Congress will pass a package

Maybe not the initial one they wanted, but A package. If a bill doesn't seem imminent, this little recovery will wane.

[pnutbutr]

161. exactly

[pnutbutr]

160. hey

Wait a week or two and do nothing and we'll see what happens. The markets bounced back on the hopes that rewriting the bill would get it passed.

[Javaman]

164. Oh ouch again! dow down 350.

Like I said before a one day rally is not a market come back.

[deaniac21]

165. Yeah, when you look long term, it's a real loser.

[Javaman]

166. I was talking about a rally. by the way, the market is down 20%+ over the past year.

until moron* leaves, this is what we got.

[deaniac21]

167. Look at the chart since 1960. It doesn't really matter who is

prez or in congress. The corporations are running the show.

[Javaman]

168. fine, whatever. nt

[AZ Criminal JD]

174. Yeah, you wouldn't want to be bothered with facts.

[Javaman]

176. naaaa, just pure exhaustion at the whole mess. nt

[MellowDem]

170. They're expecting and waiting for the bailout to pass Friday...

If it doesn't, expect another very very larger drop, maybe larger than the first, which was the largest in recent history...

[uppityperson]

171. Oops. eom

[cushla_machree]

173. BUut if wallstreet doesn't get their money

They will punish us...make it harder to get loans. they get what they want and we can't do anythign about it.

[Selatius]

175. If you seriously thought the DJIA would reverse the -777 pt. fall, prepare to eat humble pie.

What you saw was nothing but a dead cat bounce on Tuesday.