The Stupid Spreads: Now it's Beards in Afghanistan

[babylonsister]

http://www.vetvoice.com/showDiary.do;jsessionid=592CE886B48255C7262CB0D294682148?diaryId=2216


The Stupid Spreads: Now it's Beards in Afghanistan
by: Brandon Friedman
Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 03:31:29 AM EST


Who's in charge of policy formulation in the military these days? This is getting ridiculous. It's not just a ban on masks for Iraqi interpreters anymore. Now it's beards in Afghanistan:

KABUL--As the U.S. military garners increasing counterinsurgency experience in America's long-standing war in Afghanistan, soldiers are questioning one military restriction that has long been the norm within the U.S. armed forces: the prohibition against beards.

The military says it has good reasons for the beard ban for most American troops--including hygiene, soldierly discipline, and the ability to get a good seal on gas masks should troops need them.

Right. Real big threat of chemical attacks in rural Afghanistan. Good thinkin' guys.

snip//

Typical. I want to know the name of the non-combatant who thought this was a good idea. Because it's clearly not someone who's ever fought in a counterinsurgency. I know Generals Petraeus, McKiernan, and Odierno have a lot on their respective plates, but maybe they could delegate someone to look into this rash of bad ideas we're now experiencing. It's becoming a problem.

I miss the Army all the time. In fact, I'm always on the verge of joining a Reserve or National Guard unit. But then I read shit like this and I remember why I said I'd never go back in. Ever.

[BOSSHOG]

1. The gas mask seal is a legitimate argument however

considering the mission and arena, I see no really, really good reason to prevent beards.

[babylonsister]

3. That's his argument: in Afghanistan, beards help them blend in.

What is the brass thinking?

I 'get' it about masks for gas, but that doesn't apply in this case.

[TechBear_Seattle]

6. No, it is not

Sikhs and orthodox Jews are allowed to serve in many armies around the world, including the United States. These religions prohibit men from shaving. They have no problem finding gas masks which provide a solid, gas-tight seal.

The argument is bogus.

[CBGLuthier]

10. They won't allow an orthodox jew to wear a yarmulke indoors

so I am not so sure they will let them keep their beards and serve. but I may be wrong

http://law.jrank.org/pages/12591/Goldman-v-Weinberger.html

[TechBear_Seattle]

14. The US won't, you are correct

And I was incorrect in mentioning the United States. It is a fact, however, that Sikhs serve in the Canadian and Indian armies, and Orthodox Jews serve in the Canadian and Israeli armies, will full beards and without problems using gas masks.

[CBGLuthier]

27. Yeah the US has this weird belief

that those who defend freedom are not themselves fully entitled to such freedom.

[cherokeeprogressive]

31. An incapacitated combatant is lost to the fight. He needs other combatants to come to his aid.

That puts the entire fighting force in jeopardy. It's not an issue of "freedom".

[CBGLuthier]

38. wearing a yarmulke does this how?

I can see the argument against beards but the case about the yarmulke was pure and simple religious discrimination fostered by christian zealots in the armed forces.

[Winterblues]

29. Have you ever put on a US gas mask and formed a seal?

It isn't as easy as you might think. It isn't all that hard though either but it does take extra effort. They don't just fit your face automatically..

[ContinentalOp]

33. I have a short, neatly trimmed beard...

and I have trouble getting a good seal with a respirator when spray painting.

[PVnRT]

21. What gas masks would those be?

Certainly not North respirators or the standard M140. There are things called scapehoods that look like big plastic cylinders that you wear over your head, but those do not provide fresh air for long. Every gas mask I've ever seen forms a seal right around where you would wear a beard.

http://www.approvedgasmasks.com/mask-gas.htm

I worked at a place neutralizing VX that never had a leak, yet we all had to shave beards to wear the M140's we were all issued, just in case.

[TechBear_Seattle]

24. A few quotes

From http://www.forward.com/articles/2625/

And Goldstein said that during all his assignments, he has had a gas mask that fit him snugly. Before he went off for the first Gulf War for seven months, Goldstein had to demonstrate that he could put on the mask in eight seconds, like the other soldiers at Fort Dix, and he did so without a problem.

“The mask issue is bogus,” Goldstein said, before speculating that the larger reason for the rule is the military’s desire for uniformity in appearance.

Consider that the United States Armed Forces routinely granted exemptions to Sikh conscripts from 1958 to 1974, and in 1974 (with the end of conscription) extended these exemptions to enlisted Sikhs.
Ref: http://www.sikhcoalition.org/LegalUS3.asp

Also:
http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=4801&sec=67&con=4

[cherokeeprogressive]

30. This may be splitting hairs, but Goldstein said "had a gas mask that fit him snugly".

That doesn't necessarily mean it formed a good seal. I have to agree with posters above that it's not possible to wear a gasmask over a beard and remain safe. I was in the Navy in the 80's when they banned beards, a Naval tradition for over 200 years. The reasoning? Keeping Sailors from dying in an NBC attack by providing a perfect seal over bare skin as opposed to over a beard.

[PVnRT]

40. Did he pass a fit check?

Time is not the issue, tightness of the seal is.

[DS1]

2. Delta and the Green Berets wear beards in that country

I guess they can hold their breath longer than the regular enlisteds :eyes:

[FormerDittoHead]

37. ..and what about GI Joe?

...just tryin' to lighten things up.

[123infinity]

4. Hey, if they wanna look as scruffy as a Taliban, let 'em.

:eyes:

[babylonsister]

5. How about being able to blend in so they're not targets?

:eyes:

[amdezurik]

7. "blend in"?

you don't think the whole uniform thing MIGHT just be a giveaway?

[babylonsister]

9. I have seen US soldiers in Afghanistan, and not everyone wears

uniforms. Many, perhaps special ops people, try to blend in, yes.

[elocs]

13. That's why not having beards is important.

It helps the insurgents and the Taliban to tell the good guys from the bad guys.

[babylonsister]

15. Like I said, w/o a beard, they're ripe for the picking. nt

[elocs]

22. I have a godson who is deployed in the mountains of NE Afghanistan near the Pakistan border

and he would love to grow a beard, but do to circumstances beyond his control, he can't. He might actually have to shave once a week.

[babylonsister]

25. Is he being told not to

or is your godson a baby face. :D I wonder whether his peers are allowed to grow one.

And I hope he stays safe, elocs. :hug:

[elocs]

28. He has a baby face.

To tell the truth, I have seen videos of guys there in the remote forward outposts who looked like they had not shaved in awhile, but I don't know what the normal expectation would be to shave. Maybe their standards are a bit looser there.

[123infinity]

16. Do they have dirty robes for uniforms too?

:eyes:

[babylonsister]

17. What's your problem? nt

[123infinity]

18. No problem, just asking a couple of questions. perhaps inconvenient ones.

I didn't start it, after all...

[babylonsister]

20. Google is your friend, use it.

I'm not here solely to educate you. And you sound like more of a shit-stirrer than anything else.

I started nothing; I posted a VetVoice article. If you don't agree with the premise of the article, fine.

[XemaSab]

43. If wearing pants is the custom in the US

I think people should wear pants if they want.

Similarly, if wearing beards is the custom there, I think our men should have the choice. :shrug:

[Javaman]

8. Could be worse, they could be subject to the "fist test" instead...

http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/article.php3?id_article=1886

I noticed that in their litanies of Taliban excesses, my male and female friends tended to emphasize different things. Young Kabuli men complained of the Taliban bans on cinemas, kite-flying, and games, and of the compulsory Islamic dress code. They had been required to don turbans and let their beards grow long enough to extend below a mullah’s closed fist. Men who failed the fist test were beaten, jailed, or both. My friend Hashem told me of a Talib commander who also enforced the rule that all devout men ought to shave their underarms at least once a month. “After he checked your beard, he would look under your arms. If your hair was long enough, he would take a stick and-” Hashem picked up a pencil, pretended to wind hair around it, and yanked his wrist sharply downward.

[123infinity]

19. I always wondered what they meant by 'fisting'

:rofl:

[Javaman]

32. ...

:spank:

[gollygee]

11. That ban is about control

which they would call "discipline"

I don't see why wearing a beard should be a problem.

[maxsolomon]

35. it is about restricting individuality

it is essentially the same as the taliban's all-bearded policy.

[TahitiNut]

12. No decent soldier would ever wear a beard.

[shanti]

36. beautiful!

i love a man with a beard:)

[Marrah_G]

23. self-delete-read it wrong.

[MindPilot]

26. Funny thing -- the Navy allowed beards

but we still had the same standard gas masks as all the other services. Hmmmm.

[maxsolomon]

34. The Cincinnati Reds had a no-facial hair policy.

due to the wadded panties of their owners.

"hygiene" and "soldierly discipline" are uptight 20th century puritan US military bullshit.

[readmoreoften]

39. You miss the Army all the time? Hey, I know some IVAW vets who need replacements...

[TexasObserver]

41. Yeah, it's the chickenshit in the military that make so many sane people get out.

And, it's one reason so many turds stay in and make a career. They LIKE IT.

I enjoyed the military, but one dipshit a week who was too gung ho could sour it. One ass wipe who felt sideburns below the ear threatened the fabric of our national defense could ruin a week. Usually, some ass wipe who didn't have any really serious duties. Show me a first Lt. with a shitty job, and I'll show you someone who loves their chickenshit.

[trof]

42. I was told the same thing about a mustache in the air guard.

Back when I was a young, dashing, hot rock fighter pilot (in my mind ;-)) I decided to grow a mustache.

I was in a squadron in Birmingham, Alabama in the 60s.
According to southern (military) mores at the time, only dirty commie hippies had facial hair.

I showed up to fly one Saturday morning.
The ops officer hadn't assigned me an aircraft.
My name wasn't up on the sortie board.

"What gives? Where's my airplane?"
"Get rid of the mustache and I'll give you an airplane."
"What's wrong with the mustache?"
"Are you some kinda goddam hippie?"
"No, but I'm here to fly."

I went back in the office where all the Air Force reg books were.
I found the reg.
We were allowed to have mustaches that "did not extend beyond the corners of the mouth".
My didn't.

I showed it to him.
He was pissed, but he assigned me an airplane.
That's the 'military' mindset.

A few weeks later I decided I didn't like the lip fuzz after all and shaved it.
:eyes: