Why so little discussion here of the events in Mumbai?

[AZBlue]

This is a very relevant situation and to find such narrow-focused thinking here on DU is disappointing. I know many Americans don't think that anything that happens outside our country is important, but I would have thought DU'ers would realize how wrong that attitude is.

It's certainly a political event affecting Americans and this country and would fit in well on a political board.

I'm very surprised.

[ColbertWatcher]

1. There quite a few threads earlier in the day.

Some of the threads posted in the morning get lost by the evening.

Another reason why you might not see them is because people feel weird "recommending" a thread about such a large tragedy. Some people may feel it's morbid.

DU has Mumbai threads, check out the Latest Breaking News forum.

[AZBlue]

6. I will check those out - thanks.

[ColbertWatcher]

13. You're welcome. n/t

[HEyHEY]

2. I noticed that earlier, but didn't say anything

I've given up trying to discuss shit that happens elswhere here. I remember trying to discuss the Canadian elections and getting fuck all from all but a few Canadians.

[AZBlue]

9. It's sad.

You'd think people here would know better.

[DonCoquixote]

33. Hey

Many times, when people comment on others elections, they tend to get jumped on. I remember on another board when I insulted Harper, and was told in no uncertain terms to f__ my Yank ass! All the same, I heard that guy is still in power? If so, my condolences.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Because Americans are very insular

that is why

Also folks are not understanding how this affects them, or how things are connected

And it is VERY SERIOUS... you know it is when both the Indian and Pakistani Intel Services are talking to each other regarding this event

ISI talking to the Indians? talk of potentially earth shattering.. any cooperation between those two could lead to a detente

[AZBlue]

5. This may very well have a postive outcome.

A tragic but positive one if Pakistan and India can come to terms to work together at all.

Nonetheless, anyone thinking this isn't 100% relevant to America is kidding themselves. It couldn't be more important if it were taking place on US soil.

My heart goes out to the victims, those being shot at, held hostage and hiding in fear for their lives.

[silverojo]

27. It's not that we're "insular"

It's that a) There's so fucking much going on in the world, between earthquakes and bombings, etc., that it's tough to keep up...and b) When you're focused on putting food on the table, what's happening halfway across the world is the least of your concerns.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. No, wrong answer. Americans are by nature an insular nation

FROM THE BEGINNING... this is a cultural trait

Other places of the world where people are also concerned about putting food on table have a deeper understanding of events around the world. They also have an INTEREST in this.

Americans simply don't and haven't FROM THE FOUNDATION of the country..

[AZBlue]

40. Well, they understand that what happens in one country affects every other country.

Americans can't seem to get that through their head, even after 9/11.

[Deja Q]

50. Their Intel services? What about their AMD Services?

:yoiks:


Also, there've been many threads on this issue in the past. There are plenty of things to talk about; GD does not need to have the first 4 pages being chock full of posts related to the latest terror incident.

I'm still recovering from "The Day of Prop 8".

Insular indeed.

[AZBlue]

51. You think discussion of Prop 8 shows we aren't insular?

I'm not following that line of logic at all.

[Newsjock]

4. There's very little discussion here tonight, period

It's a holiday (in the USA) after all. Most of the regular posters are away, as I should be.

[leftstreet]

7. There are some excellent threads in LBN

Updated frequently

[JeffR]

8. There's a thread in LBN with 167 responses and counting

for starters...

[AZBlue]

10. I guess I'm just surprised there's nothing in this or other forums.

The ones less focused just on news and more about discussion among members - throwing around ideas and thoughts (if that makes sense?).

[JeffR]

15. Fair enough.

Though the usual syndrome of having to sift through 3 dozen threads on news items to get some actual info drives me crazy. That's not to say that all the responses to the LBN thread have been very enlightening; in fact, many of them are just bilge.

[AZBlue]

17. They are - and I just went over there to find the first post that caught my eye

from a DU'er who basically said, "eh, not my problem."

I think I need to go to bed, LOL.

[ColbertWatcher]

25. I think another reason is people are shocked at the enormity of the whole thing.

In addition there are not as many people who understand India as well as they understand their own backyards. Granted, there may be a few on DU who understand India very well, but there I don't think there are very many.

I admit I know virtually nothing about India, and when listening to the news coverage tonight I was shocked to hear how many attacks they've suffered through in recent years and that India experts were speculating that the attacks may have been perpetrated by a home-grown terrorist group!

Call me naive, but maybe there aren't that many threads because people don't feel comfortable talking about something they don't know about. These were a horrifying events that happened in a country with a history and a culture that many are unfamiliar with. It's one thing to hold an opinion about a topic, but how much can you contribute when your only sources are the CIA factbook, Wikip*dia and the BBC?

I don't know, maybe there will be more come Friday, after the holiday and when there is more information?

[AZBlue]

41. Those are good points.

I think it's sad that our news isn't more international but that's a related but different rant, LOL.

[sandnsea]

11. There's not much to discuss

Some obscure group that is supposedly linked to al qaeda. Until more is known, there's not a lot to say.

[AZBlue]

16. See post #14.

[JJ]

12. Don't really know what is going on

A dearth of actual information, as to the who and why, so that limits discussion a bit.

[AZBlue]

14. Sorry, I'm not buying that.

There's a lot of info known now, I'm watching CNN and they keep interrupting to bring new items and facts on-air.

[JJ]

24. Since you know so much

how about enlightening us with your knowledge.
1. who is behind the attacks?
2. what are their demands?
3. what is their gripe, are the anti-US anti-UK, or is this some local (India) beef?


I haven't seen any actual information other than body counts.

[dipsydoodle]

29. This might help you

It is alleged to be the Deccan Mujahideen who are locals.

This article dated 15th September, with an udate in bold at the top, states that the gripe is associated with harrassment of Muslims by the Mumbai police. http://www.deccanherald.com/CONTENT/Sep152008/scroll2008091590090.asp?section=frontpagenews I would assume that any demands preceeded last nights event.

As an aside this reminds me of Northern Ireland early 1970's when the Catholics were harrassed by the Protestants. In terms of cause and effect that ultimately led to the mainland bombing of the UK by the IRA.

Initially the news ,BBC in the UK , said that the Indian's had said it was yet to be determined whether those responsible were Muslim or Hindu - the religions at conflict. AFP then said it was the Deccan's.

There is currently no reason to associate this group with Al Q and also no reason to think this to be anti West.

Be wary of the news and read between the lines. Last night was almost farcical when the media were interviewing people locked in their hotal rooms. Some had been online and by phone to the USA and were simply reiterating what friends in the USA had seen on CNN whatever rather than what they had seen themselves.

In general to help understand the situation out there look up the history of the partition of India 1947/48 forward.

[AZBlue]

42. Thank you!

:thumbsup:

[Hannah Bell]

59. & in northern ireland, the brits had agent provocateurs on both sides,

even instigating & carrying out bombings in some instances.

helps to look at that history too.

[FloridaJudy]

60. Thank you for clarifying the situation.

I've refrained from comment - aside from expressing condolences to the victims - because I wasn't sure exactly what was going on. Even the "expert" commentators couldn't explain if this was purely a local group or if they had ties to other groups, or what their demands were.

There's also the problem that I don't know what we - we referring the US in general, and DUers in particular - could do about the situation. It's rather like reading about some other godsawful tragedy that hits another part of the world, like a volcano or a tsunami. Beyond commenting "Oh, Jeez, that's just tragic" and donating another $35 to Doctors Without Borders (which is usually my response), there's not a heckuva lot the average American can do.

Given the lack of clear information on what, exactly, happened and no guidance on how to respond to it, I find the dearth of discussion understandable.

[girl gone mad]

18. There have been a number of threads.

I started a couple myself.

The lack of traction is due to slower traffic from the holiday and the lack of real information, in my opinion.

[AZBlue]

20. Guess I missed some from earlier - I was running around all day and offline.

Thanks for posting what you did!

[XemaSab]

19. We're hosed

What else is there to say? :shrug:

[AZBlue]

21. Well......

OK, yeah.
But I think this can serve as a reminder for the need of and as a starting point for the new direction of this country under President Obama. And I think this is a good place for us all to start having a fuller and wiser world view.

And...this may just bring Pakistan and India together to work with each other. THAT would be huge.

[XemaSab]

22. It's either going to bring them together

or tear them apart. :scared:

[AZBlue]

23. Ugh. Let's hope for the first.

[Mojorabbit]

26. I am about to call it a night

but I have been watching live coverage on two english speaking channels out of India. Another explosion just happened.
http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/video_streaming.php
http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/video/video_live.aspx?id=0

[ColbertWatcher]

28. "Another explosion" !? Is that the one at the Jewish centre? n/t

[Hissyspit]

30. 1. It's a holiday. 2. It's not all that clear what is going on exactly.

I think people were waiting for more clarification.

I've been running around all day and haven't had a chance to hear much news.

[Dis Pater]

31. It involves an Al-Queda style group

and the other threads have been getting bogged down in Christian vs Muslim arguments.

[AZBlue]

38. Oh...no, that's not good.

It's inappropriate and just wrong.

[DonCoquixote]

32. It is a busy Holiday

And many in the US are just not at their computers. It should not be taken as some sign that we are "insular" as there is no doubt that this will get ramped up on the MSM. If you do not think the Zionists will use this to stoke up fear of Muslims, you have another thing coming. It does not help that these folks asked for anyone with Us or Uk passports.

Personally, has anybody thought of the idea that this was planned on Thanksgiving as part of a strategy? Terrorists know Holidays get them airtime. Let's also not forget that over there, India has elections soon.

[dipsydoodle]

34. Just on probability

there would be more UK passport holders than USA and given that the UK don't have Thanksgiving Day you have no need to throw straws into the wind by the US media.

This has got SFA to do with the Zionists - its a local Muslim v. Hindu issue : not an Arab issue. You maybe insular if for example you have no prior knowledge of the full history of conflict between the two religions going back well before the 1940's - suggest you read up on the subject even if you only start at 1947 which is the year Pakistan became a State following the partition of India .

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. No, they didn't do it because of Thanksgiving

gee'z louis how ignorant people can be

And yes, these are RADICALS.. and they should be feared

Not saying that all muslims should be feared by the way... but radicals of ANY stripe should

Read a LITTLE into the AGE OF SACRED TERROR

By the way how does your world adjust to the idea that the Chabbad center was also taken and there are hostages there as well?

[AZBlue]

52. Muslims as a whole are peaceful, it's the radicals that aren't.

Just like almost any other religious group.

[AZBlue]

44. Oddly, msnbc is just running the show "Lockup:Raw" today.

That's an odd choice for Thanksgiving anyway.

Also, remember that it's our holiday, but no where else and certainly not in India.

[Liberal_in_LA]

36. I'm surprised also. OJ gets convicted & 25 threads spring up. The Mumbai tragedy seems to warrant

more attention in DU than it's getting.

[AZBlue]

45. I think from humanitarian, political and international viewpoints it does warrant more attention!

Thank you for weighing in.

[rucky]

39. Check the DU homepage.

oops. It was the lead story earlier.

[NoPasaran]

43. Are there any shopping carts involved?

Sorry, we can't be bothered.

[AZBlue]

46. No blue light specials here.

Move along, nothing to see.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Joe Chi Minh]

48. Maybe it's because geopolitics is such a mess.

[AZBlue]

49. So we shouldn't discuss it or know about it?

I'm not following.

[Joe Chi Minh]

56. No. Feel very free to. The more we now the better. It's just that some of us

are all too familiar with hearing the big guys' side of the story, and not hearing the little guys.

You must know that the only way an oppressed but relatively powerless people can hope to make an impact on a larger aggressor is via an asymmetric war: what our propaganda framers in the West always call "terrorism" - but which, all too often is the battle waged by an oppressed peole against Western imperialist/corpotatist greed, either expressed directly or indirectly.

However, in this case in Mumbai, I know very little fo the background, because I fear what I'll discover. We have antagonised the Islamic world and indeed many people in the West who are disgusted by the hideous scale of the death and destruction meted out by Bush's coalition on the most spurious of pretexts. Similarly, in Afghanistan.

I expect its complicated by the enmity between India and Pakistan and the very inconvenient fact that they both have nuclear weapons. So, I'm suffering from a kind of overload. The thought of the convoluted dynamics involved in all world conflicts - outside of the West and Russia - just is to dauntng to try and unravel. A bit like the derivatives time-bomb, although that could, when political ideology is seen to be bankrupt, possibly be solved by very bold moves to "cut out the middle men", so to speak.

Of course, as well as the rich, presumably, pension funds would be adversely affected, but the losses would have to be shared, to minimise the appreciably bad effects on any single pension fund or group of pension funds, and individuals of modest means.

If I can bring myself to look at it more closely, I'll look to Chomsky, and perhaps the Indian Times.

[lib2DaBone]

53. 119 Killed in Mumbai..............

The terorists reportedly had rooms in the 5 star hotel.

I don't suppose George Bush and the NEOCONS would know anything about this?

[Gullvann]

54. I also thought it was a bit weird, but I have generally been too

darned busy following the events. I have Pakistani friends, and find the whole thing terrible.

So much horror, and so many horror stories coming out. Worried about the hindu extremists taking revenge. Possible military tension between India and Pakistan with the new shaky government there.

I guess everyone remember the last Indian Pakistani standoff after the attack on the Indian parliament...

Don't want a repeat of that.

Pakistan is also increasingly under terrorist attack. Both nations should cooperate against the militants and finally sort out Kashmir. I think I read somewhere that Bill Clinton might be sent there as some sort of envoy by Obama. Sounds like a good move.

We need to try to heal these festering wounds around the globe.

My thoughts and sympathies goes mostly to the people hurt and affected by the attacks.

The attacks are still on going I think in two of the hotels!

[AZBlue]

55. Bill Clinton could do a lot of good here.

This will definitely affect Pakistan-India relations, either for the better or the worse. Someone like Clinton could steer it toward a positive outcome and that would benefit everyone everywhere.

[tekisui]

57. I think the ISI is behind this.

THe only claim, I have seen, of responsibility is from the "Decca Mujahadeen". The strange thing is the email they sent to claim the attacks, was nothing more than a cut and paste of the email from the New Delhi bombings claim of responsibility from the "Indian Mujahadeen". Either they are one and the same, with little creativity, or the claim today was a convenient cover.

[Generator]

58. Terrorism is bad and awful

There, I did my part.

[uppityperson]

61. There are threads, I am waiting for new info.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

62. Because the bad guys appear to be Muslims and that makes most DUers uncomfortable.

Islamic terrorism is a pet issue of the right, and so many DUers tribal instincts conflict with what they actually believe - intellectually they want to condemn it, but doing so puts them in the same boat as their tribal enemies - and this make them uncomfortable, and they tend to keep quiet.

[pitohui]

63. is there anything useful to be said?

terror is evil, state-sponsored terror by pakistan goes beyond terror and is an act of war against india, which is even more evil -- esp. since both gov'ts in question have access to nuclear weapons

is there anything we can do or say other than "ain't it awful?"

it is a bad situation, no doubt, but i am unclear of what we can do or say that is useful other than be supportive of the victim, india, hard to do when our more traditional ally has been pakistan and we seem to have supported them even when they've done really shitty stuff such as attempting to supply nuclear material to afghanistan in early 2001 and to provide safe haven to osama bin laden after 911 (hell, he may still be there)

i think the average usa citizen is far more supportive of india and its people than our gov't has been -- i think our discussions here have little impact or influence, presumably there is "stuff" going on behind the scenes that we don't know about that accounts for this?

[newspeak]

64. when we first started receiving news about this, I told my hubby

I bet they are Pakistani. Remember on 9/11, the alleged terrorist, Atta, was wired 100,000 from Gen. Malmoud(sp) from Pakistan. The general, I believe, just so happened to be in Washington at the time of 9/11. As I understand, this administration FORGAVE Pakistan's debt. When I read that, I wanted to know why, especially reading about the money wired to Atta. I believe it is the ISI that found Daniel Pearl's body. Apparently, them, there terrists are holed up in them there hills in Pakistan--one wonders, then, why Iraq or why Afghanistan? Why, indeed!!!

It's not just an India-Pakistan thing--these terrorists were asking their victims if they held American or British passports. I bet you can guess who's being targeted, and it seems it's not Indians.