at Saddleback "Church" women must be overseen by men

[musette_sf]

from the Feministing Community:

Here's something else you may not know about Rick Warren: At Saddleback Church, the crown jewel of his empire, female employees are required to be overseen by men. Women do not preach, and they are not allowed in leadership roles unless there's at least one man supervising them.

(I found out about this through an undercover phone call to their offices one day. The receptionist said "Oh, we have lots of women working here, but there's always, you know, like, a man OVER them."

"Really? Why is that?" I said.

"Well, it's BIBLICAL," she replied.

I wanted to say "No, it's missionary!"...but I held my tongue.)

[LaurenG]

1. Yep - I read the purpose driven life years ago and went nuts at the part

that clearly states woman are to be subservient to their husbands. I went to Amazon(.com) to leave a comment and rip that book to shreds.

[bliss_eternal]

3. lmao.

:rofl:

[RetiredTrotskyite]

29. This Is As Bad as the Orthodox Church!

[Kalyke]

31. The purpose that drives my life doesn't involve a man being

on top... unless that's the way *I* want it that particular day.

:P


:hi:

[GreenPartyVoter]

34. Yep. There's plenty to clench your teeth at

[bliss_eternal]

2. I've encountered a church like that...

:(

...one of the reasons I eventually stopped going to "church." I was never comfortable with the idea that women had to be submissive to men, that in christianity (and many organized religions) men were deemed "better than" women, more worthy, the leaders, etc. It was all so....I don't know....it just felt.....archaic. :scared:

[Mari333]

4. yay...! someone picked to do an invocation

that slaps the face of the entire gay community, and slaps the face of more then half the population of the US.
good going DLC!

[marylanddem]

5. Nice. I am so furious at Obama that I have changed my avatar

from Obama O8 to this nice Democratic progressive donkey. What a fucking slap in the face to progressives this is.

[alarimer]

16. Obama is no progressive. He never has been.

I am under no illusions about him and less so now. If it turns out to be the disappointment that I expect this first term, then I am not voting for him again.

[glitch]

35. At this point I would be happy if he were a centrist.

Giving a platform to bigots ain't center IMO.

[Gwendolyn]

6. But it is biblical. Tis written in the scriptures.

The OT is rife with all kinds of references to women as property, going from father to husband. (Or being sold into slavery to some slathering lust-fueled owner). They're just living according to the Word of God.

[aquart]

9. Yeah. Warren gets the point of patriarchal religion perfectly.

And since we have yet to have a leader (with the possible but doubtful exception of Thomas Jefferson) who was willing to say a word against it, what did we expect?

[LaurenG]

10. Cherry Picked . Men are not to be near a menstruating woman

so they need to get them all out of there one week a month and all that shrimp they eat is an abomination, not to mention the pork.

[Maru Kitteh]

15. And the garments with mixed threads. Everybody misses that one.

All those cotton/rayon blend shirts, the wool-blend dress jackets, the whitey tidies with the no-slip elastic band? All abominations before the Lord.

Sinners.

[JerseygirlCT]

22. Paul

The words of a man, and a man of a very specific time and culture.

Not to be taken literally or as some sort of Godly rulebook.

But it suits the notions of a whole lot of people who really prefer to see men remain in a superior position, so it's elevated to the level of absolute, literal, Godly truth.

[riqster]

30. "Old-Testament Christians" really frost my apricots

I suppose Jesus endured all that pain and agony so that his followers could ignore his teachings when it suited them? Yeah, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggghhhht....

[NorthernSpy]

38. The rule about male authority in the church is New Testament...

St. Paul writes about it in a number of passages.

[riqster]

40. Paul also frequently is in opposition to the teachings of Jesus nt

[soulcore]

7. I wonder if they sell their daughters into bondage too? n/t

[gratuitous]

8. General strike Sunday

Every woman and every gay person (yes, I'm aware there would be some overlap) employed or volunteering at a church should just decline to serve one Sunday. Nobody to play the music, conduct the choir, staff the church office, answer the phone, handle children's activities, brew the coffee or serve the doughnuts. In some cases, fill the pulpit (shocking, no?).

I wonder how purpose-driven Pastor Warren would be if he actually had to do the work himself? God's work that apparently isn't safe to trust to just anybody that doesn't have a penis and know the proper way to use it, that is.

[Solly Mack]

11. He probably beats up his dog too

Gotta feel the He-man.

[rosesaylavee]

12. Whooooooaaaa.

:wow:

[girl gone mad]

13. My sister attends a Calvinist church like that.

The man is the head of the household and the woman must submit to his will.

Of course, she's married to a tool who burned through her savings and ran up loads of debt without telling her (she followed the pastor's advice to let her husband control the finances). She only found out about it when she went to apply for a store credit card and was denied. She'd always had excellent credit.

He's also had a couple of kids from past dalliances come out of the woodwork and has been sued a few times, but he still acts as if she's not good enough for him.

This type of religion is really dangerous and harmful. Obama shouldn't be endorsing it.

[Critters2]

27. It isn't Calvinist. Calvin was good--for his time--on women's issues.

Created the order of deaconesses in Geneva to let women use their skills outside the home. This was especially helpful to widows, who had few options to support themselves. No, he didn't ordain women, but no one did in the 16th c. However, the first woman ordained in the modern era, Antoinette Brown in 1853, was ordained in a church which was a direct descendent of Calvin's work--the Congregational Church.

Sexism is not Calivnist. For more on Calvin and women, look at the research done by Elsie McKee.

[Kalyke]

32. So was Jesus.

He traveled with at least three women that we know about who, in this day and age, would also have been referred to as disciples.

[madrchsod]

14. "cannibal christians must suffer so..."

[elehhhhna]

17. fuck that shit.

there. i said it.

[KamaAina]

18. And that is legal how, exactly?

Do churches have an exemption from EEO gender discrimination laws, like they do for sexual orientation? :shrug:

[Gin]

19. in the catholic church...women are second class citizens....

[NorthernSpy]

39. Yes.

There is indeed a religious exemption for this kinda thing.

[alittlelark]

20. My mother told me that 5-6 years ago.

I was telling her about an issue my hubby and I were in disagreement over. She told me that men are the head of the household and that wives must acquiesce to their views.

I was :wow: and :mad: and :puke:


In her defense she is a fundamentalist whacko who thought I was possessed by demons in my youth......



But still..... I actually had no words.

[JerseygirlCT]

21. Ugh. nt

[glinda]

23. Barf* gag* bleech*

[Odin2005]

24. Yuck. No words...

:puke:

[Maat]

25. It's a Southern Baptist church, isn't it?

My relatives are rightwing, fundamentalist-as-they-come, Southern Baptists in the Midwest; they sent me a copy of Warren's book, and it burned marvelously, unread, in the fireplace.

Of course, I'm not welcome back there due to my views.

[Radical Activist]

26. "missionary" haha

This isn't surprising. I still can't believe anyone calls it saddleback without laughing.

[JNelson6563]

28. It *is* bilbical

Ever read a bible? It's in there. And no, it's not limited to the Old Testament as many apologists may suggest.

Julie

[earth mom]

33. Hypocritical fundie whack jobs b*tch about how Muslim women are treated & are forced to wear abayas.

But it's all good if their own churches oppress their female church members. :puke:

[NorthernSpy]

36. St. Paul said that women are not to teach men, or hold authority over them...

In 1 Timothy 2:12, St. Paul says,

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

That is just standard-issue Christianity. I know some people try to have it both ways, but it's really pretty simple. If you believe all that stuff, you're a Christian. If you don't, you're not.


And please don't shoot the messenger. I'm an atheist.

[Ilsa]

37. Very Southern Baptist attitude. Ended up being one of many reasons

why I left that church in favor of another denomination.