if anyone says they think homosexuality is a "choice", ask them this

[unblock]

did you struggle with your decision to become heterosexual?
were you really, really, tempted to be gay, but eventually "chose" to be straight?

arguing that homosexuality is a "choice" is ridiculous on its face. it presumes that anyone could go the other way if they had simply chosen otherwise. this may make sense to the bigots when talking about gays "choosing" to be straight, but it can't possibly make sense to them when talking about straights "choosing" to be gay.

never mind that no straight person would ever choose to be gay,
no straight person ever could choose to be gay.
you simply can't make a choice about whom you're naturally attracted to.


once you ask the question, the whole thing becomes clear. the "choice" they're talking about is not the choice to BE straight or gay; the choice they're talking about is the choice to ACT straight or gay. if you're straight, of course you'll "choose" to act straight. duh, tough "choice". if you're gay, will you "choose" to conform to the bigots' demands and act straight, or will you "choose" to honor your true nature and live free like our founders wanted for you to do?


the only "choice" is repression.

[Mabus]

1. We all make choices in our lives

Our sexual identity is not one of them.

K&R #5

[Vickers]

2. I totally missed the choose-your-sexual-orientation day way back when...

:blush::blush::blush::blush::blush:

[Duppers]

3. Excellent!

I sending that out to a few bigots I happen to know. I've tried to articulate it but you've done a far better job.

- straight but not narrow here

[eridani]

4. In a sense it is a choice

People with same sex orientations can always choose to live their lives without any sex or love, which is what shitstains like Rick Warren expect them to do in order to qualify for basic civil rights. Hey, it works for Donny McClurkin, right?

[unblock]

10. but that's the choice of repression

some people are naturally asexual. they don't choose that either, it's just the way they are.

people who ARE sexually attracted to others and choose to be celibate are repressing themselves. priests may find some virtue in this sort of repression for themselves, but not even they try to impose that on others.

incidentally, sex and love are separable, and there are plenty of couples who have love without sex.

and lord knows there are couples who have sex without love!

[eridani]

39. No one shouild have to say no to sex or love in order to get basic civil rights n/t

[cboy4]

5. Excellent explanation.

:thumbsup:

[Raster]

6. My sig line speaks for me.

Stop the H8!

[unblock]

11. nice! that looks like the bumper-sticker version :)

[BOSSHOG]

7. Or this

did you choose to be an ignorant hatefilled motherfucking sack of shit or were you born that way?

[Laelth]

8. John Stewart asked Mike Huckabee the same question.

It's very effective at making the point. k&r

The United States is a LIBERAL Country.

:dem:

-Laelth

[bettyellen]

9. lot of dog whistling here about people "choosing" to be outraged. some DUers choose ignorance

some choose to be selfish assholes.

[crim son]

12. A Jehovah's Witness who came by explained it this way:

Some people are born with the urge to kill, and some are born with the desire to have sex with children. Similarly, some people are born to love members of the same sex. In all these cases a choice must be made, for all are equally abhorrent to God.

It was the most "logical" argument I've ever heard, and I don't think that trying to counter it by crying "repression" will make one bit of difference. Much of religion is all about repression of our natural instincts and desires, about repression of women, about repression of scientific learning etc. For these people, being repressed is a badge of honor.

[unblock]

14. at least it seems they're agreeing that same-sex orientation isn't a choice

they disagree about how to live your life given that orientation, but that's a different question.

i agree that there's plenty of debate over how to live one's life. i just want it clear that that's where the debate lies. there's no debate on orientation itself, it's simply a given. you don't debate the facts themselves.

[The Doctor.]

16. I've dealt with them.

And the response is; "The murder victim and the molested child do not want to be harmed. When two people love each other, there is no harm and it is very arrogant of you to speak for God."

From there, I break out the book of The Flying Spaghetti Monster and match them verse for verse until they give up and leave.

A couple times I go into a sermon on 'The Word of God'. (Southern Baptist Drawl) "And how many words that you have spoken are yours? Only one of them? No! As all words you have spoken are your words, so too are all things the Word of God... for God spoke a word and created the Heavens! God spoke a word and there was the Earth. God spoke many words, each one of them a blade of grass, a beam of sunlight, and you, you too were spoken by God! God spoke a word and (insert name of schmuck at door here) came to be! We are each one of us the Word of God! Just look around you at all God has spoken! You hold in your hand but one of God's Words, but even God said that you must know and love all that God is and has spoken... just LOOK around you my child! And you shall see 'The Word of God'! Halleluja!"

It works too.

[crim son]

20. You have the same response that I do, exactly.

There is a vast difference between murder, pedophilia and homosexuality, obviously. I'm only saying that this man had the best argument I'd heard and if pressed, he might have said, okay, forget pedophilia: what about alcoholism? It's something you're born with, but you must make the choice not to act in accordance with your biology. Let me stress that I don't agree with his position, but I was struck by how he'd insulated himself against reason.

[The Doctor.]

27. Oh, their defense mechanisms are just FASCINATING.

I've picked them apart before, but invariably they get uncomfortable and just slam their doors shut.

I love when they bring their kids along. I entertain them, and enlighten them... and the parents can't pull them out fast enough.

I was sleeping in the last time JWs came by. My son answered the Door at 9am... and he didn't wake me! I let him know how disappointed I was.

[Mari333]

17. are you saying that you agree with what the jehovahs witness said? n/t

[crim son]

21. Absolutely not.

The reason we were even discussing the subject is that I have been a serious champion of gay rights since - well, since dropping out of college and going to beauty school. It sounds perhaps trite or stupid, but before really being somewhat immersed in the more "conspicuous" side of homosexuality I hadn't given it a thought. Becoming close, intimate friends with many gay men opened my eyes to their circumstance. We were all fairly young and some of my friends were still agonizing over the recognition that they were not straight and had chosen to live as nature dictated. They'd lost family, friends and some had become uncomfortably aware that their churches would reject them too, if they knew. And of course, these were wonderful, fine people! I learned a life lesson and have never changed my mind about supporting my gay brothers and sisters in their fight for what is rightfully theirs. I left the Catholic church in large part because of its stance on homosexuality, and especially the hypocrisy of a portion of the clergy.

I hope my answer is clear.

[Mari333]

23. oh okay, thanks and hugs

it isnt a choice. its how people are born. its like being born with blue eyes. you cannot change it.
its too bad there are so many people who dont know that, isnt it.
hugs.

[dysfunctional press]

19. if they're so abhorrent to god- why did he make them that way? what a sick & twisted fucking prick.

and you actually "worship" that asshole?

...is kind of how i would have responded to his "logic".

[crim son]

22. You are missing his point entirely.

In his view, God makes "mistakes", maybe as a "lesson" for the rest of us. I don't know. He wasn't gay so it didn't bother him much. :eyes:

[dysfunctional press]

24. why would anyone worship such a piece of shit...?

he makes "mistakes" to teach others a lesson? and it's okay for him to torment innocents to teach lessons to others? :banghead:

absolute power corrupts, absolutely.

[crim son]

32. I think some people need serious guidelines for living.

I was a Christian at one time and I liked the feeling of being special, and also of being small and beholden. It's the psychology of a child and I'm grateful I grew up. :hug:

On edit: I "liked" not I "like".

[pipi_k]

36. Nice point on its surface but

People who kill and have sex with children...whether they're "born that way" or are created by other factors in their lives...they are severely mentally ill

People attracted to members of their own sex are not mentally ill

So I don't know whether or not that JW realized it, but he was associating homosexuality with the CRIMES of murder and child sexual abuse. He was also, as I pointed out, placing homosexuals in the same cauldron of mental illness as murderers and child molesters.

[crim son]

37. I'm quite certain he knew what he was saying.

Exactly what you describe, is what he meant.

[The Doctor.]

13. Oh, I take it a step further;

I start with asking them when they made the choice, and then explain that since they found themselves attracted to both men and women, they must naturally be bisexual.

"Gee, it must be rough looking at other men/women and having to live with your decision."


Ultimately, every single person I've taken through the steps has recanted; "Well... I guess it really isn't a choice. I don't remember making any choice. I suppose you're right." - or some variation on that theme.

[unblock]

15. right, i'll even say, "do you keep choosing? are you choosing right now?"

"should i give you some quiet time, i wouldn't want to distract you while you're making such an important decision"
"are you attracted to my gender? no? should i be offended or feel rejected?"

[Mika]

18. It shouldn't matter either way.

Their is nothing wrong with it being a choice or not. Its supposed to be a free country (or at least that's what we should be striving for, not for genetic means testing).

[BlooInBloo]

25. It actually doesn't matter whether or not it's a choice - there's nothing wrong with it...

in the first place.

[The Doctor.]

29. No, it doesn't at all...

but that's a whole other echelon of reasoning they can't deal with. So I just shut them down at the 'it's a choice' meme.

[BlooInBloo]

30. Yah. I just can't *stand* granting premises - especially when they're false.

:P

[marshall]

26. Many people do struggle with issues of sex

Whether to have sex before marriage--or even on the first date. They struggle to remain faithful to their partners, or remain celibate until marriage.

[GaYellowDawg]

28. You're right.

And challenge them as to how many LGBT individuals they've ever actually talked to this about, as opposed to trying to convert them. Ask them how they can be an authority on this, when they have no openly gay friends or acquaintances.

[sweetpotato]

31. Either that or ask if they would like to be married to someone who *chose* to be straight

A gay person who *chooses* to be straight is a lousy marriage partner. This I know from personal experience.

[unblock]

33. sorry to hear that!

[nichomachus]

34. I was blown away the other day

when I saw "Milk." The anti-gay bigots in 1978 were using the exact same arguments that the anti-gay bigots are using today and used successfully in Prop 8.

I was saddened that not much has changed in the last 30 years. I was seriously depressed that the arguments, which didn't work in 1978, did work in 2008. It's almost like we're going backwards.

[SteelPenguin]

35. No That Won't Work

I wish it would, but it won't.

You're missing the core of HOW they think about it.

They see it as a choice akin to playing a game like Basketball. let's say they like playing Football, but think playing basketball is a sin, and people CHOOSE to play basketball rather than football. They looked at basketball and didn't like it. They figured their dislike of it was part of the reason it was considered a sin, and that people who choose it are therefore sinful and wrong. Why should they legalize playing basketball. they're not taking away anyone's rights. They can play Football instead. EVeryone can play Football, nobody needs to play Basketball.

The problem is that it's not a choice and it's not a game.

Asking someone if they struggled with their choice would be like asking that guy if he struggled with his choice to not play basketball. To him, his derision of the game REINFORCES his position. By asking that question you're only reinforcing his own position unfortunately.

[Mnemosyne]

38. KnR for an excellent suggestion! Thank you, unblock! n/t