Is Democratic Underground LGBT friendly?

[el_bryanto]

Poll question: Is Democratic Underground LGBT friendly?

Bryant

[polichick]

1. Some posters are, some aren't.

[el_bryanto]

2. Maybe i should have reworded it to ask the percentage of friendly to unfriendly n/t

[BR_Parkway]

3. 15-20% unfriendly - well, 5-7% very vocally, the rest assent by their silence

during some of the raging "obama is right and must not be questioned, no matter what" wars of the past few days or during the Donnie episode

[Behind the Aegis]

4. "The community could do somewhat better "

Very good choice to present. Are there raging homophobes here? Sure. Just like there are racists, Jew-haters, misogynists, Islamaphobes, and a whole range of bigots. Most will eventually trip up and show their true colors, usually in unexpected ways. However, there are many who have underlying issues, which at a single glance may not be "bigoted," but they do provide insight into a real concern.


(Note to DU admins....PLEASE, PLEASE add "homophobes and Islamaphobes" and their variations to the DU spell check!!!! (If you can!))

[Xipe Totec]

5. I'm a hemophobe, but otherwise try to be tolerant

(I can't stand the sight of blood).

[unpossibles]

6. I voted "for the most part"

I do encounter a lot of typical to society jokes and what may be unintentional bashing, and I try to see some of it with a grain of salt as I know that I have accidentally stuck my foot in my mouth more than once on other subjects.

But for the most part, I do think the site is LGBTQ friendly.

[Ms. Toad]

7. There is an effort by DU (the owners)

recently to make DU LGBT friendly.

There have been a number of very strong, supportive statements - and every grossly inappropriate post I have alerted on has been deleted. (I don't alert on merely unsupportive comments only on the ones that I categorize as grossly inappropriate - in the range of a half dozen since the election - and those have all been deleted.)

It takes time, though, for the mods to react - particularly during busy times or in the middle of the night. It has taken hours, occasionally, and in the meantime the hurtful comments remain up and on at least one occasion were echoed/joined by others (along with a few Nyah-Nyah comments by the original offender) when there was apparently no reaction from the mods. Those times are particularly painful.

Recently, there are a lot of posts from people who just don't get how painful and inappropriate Obama's selection of Warren to give the invocation at the inauguration is. Back when I was in groups struggling with racism, there were times I thought my friends of color were overreacting to what seemed to me to be minor issues. I don't know how successful I was, but I tried to approach such expressions of pain from those friends from the position that if person of color tells me that something is a big deal - or painful - then it is and it is my obligation to listen respectfully to what they had to say to me because I have no way of imagining the world through the glasses of daily discrimination, abuse, and pain they see the world through.

I wish that posters who feel that the invitation to Warren is no big deal, that we're making a mountain out of a molehill, that we should get over it, etc. would drop in to their local gay community center, hang out with gay friends, or otherwise reach out to real people who have been personally impacted by the likes of Warren and really listen to what it is like to live in our skins. (If you don't yet get it, you're not going to suddenly get it reading message boards - you need some contact with real people who are living it.)

It's not an overwhelming percentage that doesn't get it - and makes insensitive comments as a result - but it is enough to make it uncomfortable here on a regular basis. I'd agree with the general percentages posted by BR_Parkway in this thread.

(Edited to correct a minor typo)

[Skittles]

8. YOU KNOW IT, MS. TOAD

this post is worthy of its own thread :thumbsup:

[Ms. Toad]

10. Thanks. n/t

[QC]

47. Yes, the offending posts get deleted, but the members who repeatedly make those offending posts

seldom get deleted.

If the worst that can happen to you is getting a post deleted, then why not indulge one's bigotry freely?

[Ms. Toad]

52. The majority of the ones I've alerted on

have been tombstoned.

Not to say the system is perfect - as I noted, there are far too many vocal, ignorant fools for it to be a comfortable place. But the ones who are cruel (as opposed to merely loudmouthed and ignorant) don't usually stay around long.

[QC]

53. There are people who were blaming us for every Democratic defeat back in 2001

who are still here.

On edit: the phobe I linked to is gone. Great work!

[Ms. Toad]

54. I know. I was around then - at least lurking.

and I was actively posting during the 2004 hate-fest. Probably a large part of the reason I couldn't bring myself to actively campaign for or contribute to Obama. I pounded the pavement and staffed the phones for Kerry - and got blamed for the loss (even though I chose not to publicly campaign against Ohio's marriage discrimination amendment to avoid alienating potential Kerry voters). Obama was clearly not a fierce supporter of my rights, despite current assertions to the contrary, and the thought of putting out that kind of energy again for someone who believed my marriage should not be recognized was more than I could stomach.

I voted for Obama twice, felt guilty I wasn't doing more, but every time I thought about volunteering I just couldn't get past what happened in the aftermath of 2004 when I actively campaigned for a candidate - a candidate who similarly did not support my right to marry.

(Edited since my finger accidentally hit send too soon.)

[Deja Q]

72. "to what it is like to live in our skins."

:)

[Mike 03]

9. I voted "we could do somewhat better" just based on my own past, not judging anyone else

I remember making jokes about Anne Coulter and all sorts of stupid things, and only very recently have I realized this is no joke.

So I could have done a lot better.

This is life and death stuff.

And it's right and wrong stuff.

And If I had not been blessed to know the gay people I knew in my life, my teachers, I would have been screwed beyond belief. They were the best thing that ever happened to me.

[mondo joe]

11. It is evident that there is a different standard for GLBT equality than for other groups.

Things are said about gays that would never be tolerated if analogous statements were made about Jews or African Americans.

Mostly DUers are excellent on being GLBT friendly but there are some notable exceptions.

[el_bryanto]

12. Do you see that as a commentary on DU or on Society as a whole? n/t

[mondo joe]

14. Since you asked about DU, I answered about DU.

It's true of society as a whole as well.

[Greyhound]

13. No.

We don't much like women or poor people either.

[el_bryanto]

15. You don't see the DU community as particularly progressive then?

[FreeState]

19. I agree with him...

While DU is a very hard place to police its very easy to find post that are offensive and dismissive of all minorities. These post are not in any way the majority, however all you need is several vocal people to make it seem worse than it is. That being said - IMHO even one post that is against civil liberties of any individual or group of people is uncalled for and tarnishes the whole experience of DU for all involved.

[Greyhound]

30. Prop H8 is a great example. Many here either defend this abomination,

or try to excuse it. That is the very antithesis of liberalism (or progressivism if you prefer).

I've seen posters get away with saying things against gays and women that would be an instant, automatic, tombstone if they'd said it about Hispanics, as an example. Not to mention the endless cries of "get over yourself", "I was just joking", "there are more important things to consider now", etc.

I've seen mods allow individuals to go into the feminist forum and blatantly harass, even stalk, posters for weeks with no response to the alerts. Most of the feminists left DU long ago and those that remain, self censor or just don't post anymore.

Thanks.

ETA: :hi::fistbump:

[el_bryanto]

35. I think policing the subforums is an ongoing challenge - policing GD would seem to be a chore n/t

[SidneyCarton]

42. Find me a single poster (non-tombstoned) who defends prop 8 on this board.

Last time I checked voicing support of 8 was a one way ticket to granite cookie land.

[Greyhound]

44. Then you're not looking very hard...

enjoy.


:hi:

[el_bryanto]

57. Who is pro proposition 8?

I mean objectively pro-Proposition 8 - saying they voted for it and/or argued in favor of voting for it?

Bryant

[BlooInBloo]

65. I suppose you have "many" links to back that up?

I think I may have seen 1 or 2 defenses of that PoS, but no more than that.

Or is this just another IfYouDon'tBitchLoudlyEnoughThenYou'reAGayBasher thing?

[Greyhound]

67. Which "that" are you referring to?

Page one of GD should provide you with ample instances of the current firestorm, and if you are referring to the very selective enforcement of DU rules in regard to feminists, just peruse the archives on the forum yourself. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=341&topic_id=7654&mesg_id=7654">Here's a start for you.

[BlooInBloo]

77. You only said "many" once. There's no ambiguity possible with my anaphor.

EDIT: Clarified.

[Greyhound]

78. Now see, if you were in fact interested you would have looked

at both of the options I gave you. But of course, that is not your intent.

You people just amaze me. Completely blinded by, whatever, and appear unable or unwilling to look at what the actual victims tell you, yet always anxious to justify your lack of understanding with endless obfuscation.

It is people like you that make me understand my family's attitude toward the "useless eaters". Fortunately, I have met and known so many wonderful, giving, empathetic, and willing people, that I choose to believe you are the minority.

Someday, I hope, you too will reap the benefits of our work.

[BlooInBloo]

88. Your assertion. The burden s on you, tiger.

[Greyhound]

89. LOL!

[Greyhound]

23. No, it's Democratic Underground. Party affiliation is the driving factor and since

the only requirement to be a Democrat is to say you are, we are fairly representative of the nation at large.

How else do you think we ended up in this clusterfuck? It started long before _shrub.

Of course there are liberals here, but we're far from a majority. Remember the wails and gnashing of teeth over the Great Bankster Robbery?

[el_bryanto]

24. it is interesting - I can tell you that as a moderate liberal

it regularly feels like the opposite. I missed the Great Bankster Robbery, unfortunately.

[Greyhound]

32. Oh the $700B rip off was a great two days, and many of the most panicked

were people that you (or at least I) never would have guessed.

[Creideiki]

56. It's not. Really, it isn't.

It's really pretty center-right. Not that I expect much else.

[el_bryanto]

59. I guess it would depend what scale you use

American Politics in general is more right wing than the rest of the world; on the American scale it's hard to argue we are right wing.

Bryant

[Creideiki]

61. Because we accept it.

I still propose that you do the humane thing and get rid of us. Sure, it would be a diplomatic undertaking, but there are roughly 15-20 million LGBT people that are intelligent, well-trained, and creative. Set up a forced emigration to countries that appreciate all of their citizens.

[el_bryanto]

63. When you say you do you mean me personally?

Because that seems like kind of an extreme solution; why don't we try to find a way to all get along?

Bryant

[JohnnieGordon]

16. Someone was starting threads advocating their support for DADT

And they didn't get banned for being a homophobe! They had a high enough post-count apparently. I've seen very few habitual homophobes here get tombstoned, if they had a 1,000+ post count. However my post calling this person a homophobe got deleted. That's when I left DU, I've come back with a different name and much lower expectations that the mods care about making gays feel truly welcomed and respected as equals.

[el_bryanto]

17. I may have missed something - is that the same as DOMA?

Please forgive my ignorance.

[JohnnieGordon]

18. DADT = Don't Ask, Don't Tell...n/t

[el_bryanto]

20. Ah.

I admit to buying that as a lousy but necessary compromise back in the day - but hopefully Pres. Obama will overturn it.

Bryant

[FreeState]

21. Its sad isnt it - many of the same posters are here and come out to "put us in our place"

anytime we need support. I see the same names without fail walking a think line of acceptance that were here supporting the party but completely dismissive of any issues we have. Its beyond frustrating.

[el_bryanto]

22. how do they put you in your place? is this mostly the Warren issue or other? n/t

[FreeState]

25. Every single issue generally

DADT, Marriage Equality, EDNA, Hate Crimes, inclusion in general - you name it. I could point to at least five posters that will show up over and over and dismiss the GLBT community and its issues. Its generally the same posters too.

[Ms. Toad]

34. The Warren issue is only the latest.

Every time the issue of LGBT issues comes up we are told by a vocal minority of posters:

Don't bring it up now - it will hurt our chances in the upcoming election (and since there always is an upcoming election, we're never allowed to bring it up);

Stop complaining, it really isn't that big a deal;

Separate is ok, as long as it is equal;

We're not putting down gays/trans folks just because the biggest insult we can think of is to call someone gay/trans - it's just that we're pointing out their hypocrisy;

It's not really a civil rights issue;

You couldn't wait for the right time to work for LGBT rights so YOU lost the {insert election lost here} for us;

Stop raining on our parade - just because your marriage may no longer be valid (you may lose your health insurance, you may not have the right to visit your no-longer-spouse in the hospital, hour no-longer in-laws may kick you out of the home while you are at your no-longer-spouse's funeral, etc.) is no reason to talk about it in the middle of the big victory celebration.

There are other choices than Warren that could have accomplished the same reach-across-the-religious-divide goal without selecting someone who is deliberately hateful and actively participated in stripping many in this community of their rights. Hearing, once again, once again that we should shut up and stop complaining about being run over by the victory bus is a bit much.

[el_bryanto]

36. Well i would guess that in a very real way it's adding insult to injury - coming on the heels of

Prop 8. Bryant

[Ms. Toad]

37. Especially since Warren was an active supporter

of Prop 8.

[BoneDaddy]

26. The problem is this

I am highly supportive of the GLBT community. In fact I am bisexual in origin but in a committed monogymous heterosexual relationship. I feel a need to say this because if you do not preface your position personally you will automatically be targeted as a bigot if you do not subscribe to a particular position.

In many ways DU, and the progressive community, has as many sacred cows as the "other side" and if you do not fall lockstep into it, you are given a negative label.

DU is very supportive of the GLBT community but like life, most people react to what affects them first. For many it is the economy, for some the war, for some animal rights, vegetarianism, energy, jobs, sexual orientation, gender, ethnicity, trauma, patriarchy, freedom of speech, etc...

We all need to understand that what affects one, may not affect others. Compassion is part of what we all need to practice, but not just from our particular "tribe" as I find some DUers as vitriolic and hatefilled as those in the New Republic.

[mondo joe]

27. My observation is that in the DU lifeboat, GLBT people are the first over the side when

things get tight.

Metaphorically speaking, of course.

[BoneDaddy]

31. You may be right

and I think that it is because of the political hot potato that it is. I guess I ask my friends to be patient. Did they really think that prior to Obama taking office he would be able to do anything dramatic and can they see the Warren invite simply as a political shoehorn to get more important issues through in the future? I don't know.

[mondo joe]

39. I'm left feeling I can't much mock the Log Cabin Republicans like I once did.

I'm not sure who's the bigger fool.

[el_bryanto]

40. I don't know about that - I mean i get how insulting this Warren thing is

But I still believe that Obama is, on the whole, going to be leagues ahead of John McCain (or Romney or Huckabee for that matter). That doesn't mean you let him off the hook for this insult; but you can keep it in some perspective.

Bryant

[mondo joe]

43. Obama will be better than McCain. But at least the Log Cabing Repubs know what

they're getting, and don't get fooled into thinking it's better than it is.

If you can't get your party to really advocate for you, maybe the next best thing is to look out for your own ass.

[BoneDaddy]

46. Mondo, love ya man

but don't you think we need to at least give the man a chance?

[Ms. Toad]

41. Actually, I wanted him to not do anything dramatically bad.

and Warren is dramatically bad.

Many of us could not fully celebrate Obama's victory because it came tied to the end of our marriages (or the ban on future marriages). Warren actively worked for the passage of that issue.

Now, we are being told that honoring, with a place at the inaugural table, someone who directly and actively participated in dismantling legal recognition of our families, is not a big deal. Sorry, but backing up the bus that ran over us on November 4 up for a second pass over our bodies is deeply painful. It has NOTHING to do with issues - it is personal.

In order for there to be a bridge, there need to be two banks. You cannot repeatedly gouge one bank and expect it to be solid enough to hold up its end of the bridge.

[BoneDaddy]

45. No doubt

I can't imagine what you are feeling. Betrayal of some sorts, I can only guess. All I ask is this. Let's wait and see. If during his presidency Obama makes no new ground for the GLBT community then you will find me yelling along side of you.

All I ask is that we give some time to this vision. It may not look like you want it to be intially but that remains to be seen.

[Ms. Toad]

50. I have not said one word about his staffing picks,

many of whose names would not have occurred to me for the positions he placed them in. I am willing to wait and see how they work out.

On this, I am not. I was denied the opportunity to celebrate Obama's election because it was overshadowed by the destruction wreaked on many families that look like mine by an army led by Warren. To honor Warren in this manner either is either blatant disdain for my family, or political naivete far beyond anything I have seen Obama exercise to date.

I hope it is the latter, and that he remedies it quickly. If it is the former, I am not sure I can tolerate yet another betrayal by people who theoretically support my rights - like Clinton, Kerry, and far too many members of DU who do not understand this is just not some minor oversight.

[CreekDog]

90. and a month ago, it seemed like black folks were next

right?

i want everybody in the boat. but i get especially mad when someone gets victimized and takes it out on another person who has also been victimized. no group did that one month ago here at DU, but many individuals did.

[FreeState]

28. If Im not interested in an issue - or it does not move me I dont post in the threads

the problems I see is people who come into threads that they claim they could care less about and let everyone there know they dont care and to move on.

Unfortunately in every group you will find "vitriolic and hatefilled" people, that crosses all socioeconomic, religious and political parties.

[BoneDaddy]

33. I agree

Ultimately, in most cases, it is about whether "MY TRIBE" gets what they want. Life is more complicated than that.

[BoneDaddy]

94. Exactly

I dont deny the phenomenon. I just am pointing out that depending upon your personal circle of interest, it determines what you think. The funny thing is that I am HIGHLY supportive of the gay community. The issue with me is this... We have spent 8 years under the Bush Regime. I am done. I have invested in BO. I will stay invested until I have a reason not to.

He ran under an inclusive umbrella. I will wait to see what he does with it. You may find me highly critical of BO in a year if I believe he has beeen duplicitous.

All I ask of Du Drama fucking queens is to hold off for a few months

[Orsino]

29. Too wedded to a major political party to ally very closely with GLBT people. n/t

[SidDithers]

38. I think most DU'ers are supportive of their GLBT brothers and sisters...

but there are also too many DU'ers willing to throw them under the bus if it's politically expedient.

Sid

Edit: changed many to most in Subject line

[enigmatic]

48. If they are willing to throw them under the bus if it's politically expedient

Then they don't support them at all.

[thewiseguy]

49. I support you guys

:hi:

And I am going to fight with you all the way to the end.

This is about our rights.

[enigmatic]

51. You're right, this is about Human Rights

I'm straight but like you, I'll stand w/ my GLBT brothers and sisters in their fight for equality. I'll never waver in this:toast:

[silverojo]

55. What idiot would think DU isn't LBGT friendly?

I mean, the mods won't even let us make jokes about Ann Coulter anymore.

Every other post here is about gay marriage.

The only way DU could do more for the LBGT community would be to have a matchmaker for single LBGT people. :rofl:

[ogneopasno]

58. I voted "the community could do better," but I have to say, I'd vote that for just about any

minority (religious, black) or special interest group (union advocates, anti-war activists). Because (I'm guessing) demographics would show us that the majority of people on this board are white, straight and lower-to-upper class.

[Marrah_G]

60. The community could do alot better

The last few days show that.

People need to learn to look at things from another persons point of view.

The majority of the people here HAVE their rights, all of their rights.

The GBLT community does not.

Yet time after time here they are told to sit down and shut up, that now isn't the right time.

That slapping them (figuratively) in the face is the best strategic move so they should just accept it.

People repeat this crap over and over and never stop to think how badly they are hurting others here with their thoughtless words.

If they were your rights, your family's rights, being denied, would you be so quick to to brush these things off?

And even more importantly, how would you feel knowing your friends were okay with it?

[treestar]

62. It is very friendly on the main issue

But then some of these things that come up seem to demand we desert Obama over something like this Warren guy. Or that we drop out of society over a candy bar commercial. Which would do no one any good.

If DU were the movement for LBGT rights, the fight would not be successful. A gay MLK would be a help. Just screaming bigot at bigots gets them to dig their heals in and demand sympathy from the mainstream.

[BoneDaddy]

69. A sanity among insanity

what a concept...ty.

[Terran]

64. It's almost too friendly, IMO

Over the years I've seen a lot of straight posters talk about GLBT people as if we're all saints and magical good fairies. Gay people are just like anyone else, there are good ones and bad ones, people who march in lockstep and people who don't.

[terrya]

66. There has been discernable homophobia on DU and continues to this day.

Enough said.

[BoneDaddy]

68. So we are either with you or against you

and there is no gray area, no reality, no flexibility? Either I have the same exact view as you on this issue or what?

Sounds awfully familiar to GW Bush.

[LeftyMom]

70. So your defense is that you're slightly bigoted?

:wtf:

[BoneDaddy]

79. In what way?

just curious.

[baby_mouse]

91. It seems that you should tell us.

[BoneDaddy]

92. No, the burden of proof lies on you

I am not the one making the accusation.

[JanMichael]

76. You betcha. There is NO flexibility. None.

And I mean it.

These "gays" are tax-paying American citizens, I assume like you. (Don't know where you live) They deserve to be treated equally in every aspect of life in this country.

Your opinion on this DOES NOT MATTER ONE WHIT because other people's lives, who they live with, who they sleep with, or what goes on between them and their doctor is never going to be, and never has been ANY of your business.

[BoneDaddy]

80. Jan

I dont disagree with you one bit )

[Toasterlad]

83. Please Describe the Gray Area In Civil Rights Issues.

:popcorn:

[Marrah_G]

93. There is no flexibilty on equal rights

Either they are or they are not.

[BoneDaddy]

95. If you live in reality..yes there are

I am not talking ideologically. you and I are on the same page. What I am talking about is REALITY.

Of course you want to push your view and I agree with it. The problem is that a majority of americans are still fucking backwards. Patience is what I am asking for even though I know many of you have had it with being patient.

But what you feel and what is....is two different things..

I am asking to have people get out of their hearts and into their heads.

[Mari333]

71. The more I read today I would say NO

I have never seen so many "Go sit down and stfu you gay people" posts in my life on DU.
pretty ugly when peoples true colors (homophobia) start to come out.

[gollygee]

73. I thought it was

at least for the most part. But I'm not LGBT and therefore was not in a position to be able to tell as well as those who are LGBT.

From what I've seen the past few days, I'd have to say at best "maybe halfway".

[devilgrrl]

74. I don't know about DU but I'm LGBT friendly!

:-)

[Phentex]

75. Not today, apparently....

Today is "Sit Down and Shut Up if you are Gay or Lesbian" day.

It's sad.

[Mari333]

86. thats been happening for a few days now .

to the back of the bus.

[shadowknows69]

81. Only if you yourself are gay apparently

Otherwise you get your good advice spat upon and are accused of being a bigot these days. Real fun place to come.

[Toasterlad]

82. Oh, You Absolutely MUST Share Your Good Advice With Me

I can already tell from this post alone that it would be extraordinarly entertaining. Examples PLEASE!

:popcorn:

[shadowknows69]

84. Nope, sorry. I'm done. I'm through having empathy and showing support for people that don't want it.

If it doesn't meet their standards. If you demand all your allies be perfect then you end up with a pretty small coalition.

[jonnyblitz]

85. yeah it takes lots of effort i am sure.

we wouldn't want to put you out.

[Toasterlad]

87. Wow. You Must Have Really Been Hurt.

It's obvious you were deeply, deeply committed to the cause of Gay Equality. I can't even BEGIN to imagine the horrible things someone must have said to get you to turn your back on us. Oh, woe is us, for the loss of such a valuable ally!