Dog attacks prompt cities to look at pit bull bans

[The Straight Story]

Dog attacks prompt cities to look at pit bull bans

By M.L. JOHNSON – 8 hours ago

MILWAUKEE (AP) — Jacqueline Sedlar and her 12-year-old daughter were walking home when the girl peered over a neighbor's fence and a pit bull took a chunk from her eyebrow.

Outraged, Sedlar contacted her city councilman, who introduced an ordinance banning pit bulls. But the mayor vetoed the ban in favor of an alternative "dangerous dog" ordinance that some say will be less effective in preventing attacks.

The controversy in the Milwaukee suburb of West Allis exemplifies the struggle communities nationwide face in trying to address dog attacks. Some have banned pit bulls — a broad term that covers several breeds — and other breeds they consider most dangerous. But other communities are trying to "punish the deed, not the breed" with ordinances focusing on dogs with violent histories.

American emergency rooms treated an estimated 310,000 people for dog bites in 2007, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The estimate has fallen fairly consistently since 2001, when an estimated 366,000 bite victims were treated.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gDxKUMAvSf4Dgpi-8V4nKYjOY39AD95UNSK00

[flvegan]

1. Ooh, I'm in the front row!!

:popcorn:

[Book Lover]

2. Pass that over here!

Nice and early in the week, too. Shall we take bets on what say of the week this thread finally drops to the second page in GD? My money says Wednesday.

[The Straight Story]

5. we need some dog emoticons:

more here:
http://www.messhits.com/dog-emoticons.html

[LeftyMom]

55. Scoot over and share.

[KittyWampus]

In an ideal world, communities would have free dog training and spay/neuter programs

One can dream

[KurtNYC]

29. The dog fighting community breeds large numbers of pitbulls from

the most aggressive stock they can find then they turn the culls out and well-meaning people adopt them from shelters etc.

Breeding aggressive pitties is what they are all about. They aren't going to spay any time soon.

[Recursion]

3. Ah!!!! They admit it!!

Some have banned pit bulls — a broad term that covers several breeds

Finally a media outlet admits that.

Actually, the term isn't supposed to "cover several breeds": it really just means APBTs and AmStaffs. But the word "pit bull" gets used in the public arena to describe any large Molosser (and often, oddly enough, not actual pit bulls). What this really is, is an attempt to ban large dogs.

[Island Blue]

4. We just had a case in our county

where two pit bulls went into a neighbor's house through a dog door and brutally attacked and killed a Yellow Lab that lived in the house. Just a horrifying situation. Sorry to pit bull fans, but these dogs probably should be banned. Period. Oh, and flame away. I just read the article describing this situation along with a full page ad taken out by the Lab's grieving owners - there is nothing that anyone could say to me that would be a brutal has what happened to that poor dog.

[supernova]

6. The real problem is ..

you don't know you have a dick dog owner next door until the dog takes bite out of your thigh simply because you are walking down the street, or working in your own yard.

This really needs to be addressed. Putting people in the hospital because you don't know how to contain your dogs not acceptable.

[crim son]

7. Since nobody seems to know whether or not these animals

present a special danger, it might be worth studying - I mean, as worth studying as anything else. I've never been attacked by a dog but my kids have: one dog was a yellow lab (!) and the other, a purebred Dalmation. The article cites one report that stated 14% of dog bites were caused by "pit bulls." If that's true, it seems high to me. It's not like there are only ten breeds of dogs.

And yeah, point taken by flvgan's pre-emptive first post, but I've never weighed in on the subject and now was my chance!

[MidwestTransplant]

9. When I was growing up we had a standard poodle who would bite me often

if I tried to take something out of his mouth. Never required a trip to the hospital. If a large dog did the same it likely would. So that eliminates a huge universe of dogs that could send you to the hospital.

[crim son]

16. Yes. Yours would have been the "underreported" bites, going

unreported because they weren't worthy of notice. Still, some people go to the emergency room with a cold; it's hard to predict what some people will consider needs medical attention and what doesn't.

[seabeyond]

26. one kills, the other hurts.... hm. difference? n/t

[KurtNYC]

30. you aren't supposed to focus on that key difference (as any pit bull thread will show)

"Cocker spaniels bite more than...blah blah blah."

"Breed is mis-identified... blah blah blah."

[MidwestTransplant]

46. I was responding to the point that a large percentage of dog bites are pitbull bites

My point is that it's less large than it would seem because so many go unreported if from other dogs. The idea that a bite from a large dog is more sever than from a small dog is part of my argument.

[guitar man]

10. yeah, but

I guarantee there have been more than 10 breeds of dog that the media has identified as "pit bulls" following a dog attack. I've known local reporters that won't even go cover a dog attack until someone tells them a "pitbull was involved.

If there indeed was just one breed responsible for 14% of biting incidents, I'd be alarmed too. In fact, nothing could be further from the truth.

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

[crim son]

15. I did read the criticism of what is and is not called a pit bull

and so I put the term in quotes, or I meant to! I don't think this fact means that the issue isn't worth further, unbiased study.

[guitar man]

17. absolutely

Unbiased study, to me anyway, would include the owners of so many different similar looking breeds to see if they have something to do with why their dogs turn out mean. :shrug:

[crim son]

19. Yes. n/t

[-..__...]

8. For safeties sake...

America needs to follow the example of other civilized nations and ban these monsters or strictly regulate their ownership by civilians.

[arcadian]

11. Banning them would only increase their value.

n/t

[KurtNYC]

31. while reducing their numbers to almost nothing

sounds like a great deal to me.

[frylock]

22. ban these monsters..

i agree. ban all assholes who can't train their dogs properly.

[AndrewP]

25. That's it in a nutshell

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. I say we ban poodles.

They've already conquered France, and we're next.

[RadiationTherapy]

13. he he heeeee!

[undeterred]

14. That must have been absolutely terrifying for the 12 year old girl.

Yes, I'm placing my sympathy with the child who was attacked. Outrageous of me.

[Spangle]

24. For peeking over the fence???

the dog shouldn't have attacked her. But there is such a think as taking personal responsiblity. The owner had a fence to keep the dog in. The owner wasn't in error.

WE have came to a stage where folks can prod, harrass, verbally assult folks (and animals), and are surprised when they are attacked back. Folks are becoming wired in the brain to think that they do not have to be concerned with personal safty. Some folks think can walk out in front of moving cars, it's the cars who have to stop, no matter what. IF they get hurt, then good, they will sue. That is the way some folks are being raised to THINK!

Instead, if her parents were with her, THEY should be charged for allowing it to happen. She should be charged for tresspassing. While the homeowners insurance will have to pay for 'damages', the owners should also be allowed to sue her and her family for emotional distress that was caused by HER going onto their property.

I feel sorry for this little girl. I really do. But this same problem is going on all over the place. On so many different levels. Folks need to start taking personal responsibility.

[undeterred]

28. The fence has to match the dog.

If the fence isn't high enough to contain the dog, including preventing the dog from biting someone on the other side of it, the owner should have put up a higher fence.

[Spangle]

36. Fence kept dog on his side.

She stuck her face over into his area. Dog never had to leave it's area to bite her face.

IF she jumped into a lake to get a closer look at a gator, who would be at fault when she was bitten?

Parents teach their children to beware of gators. What happened to teaching children about dogs? Dogs are protective of their area and their pack. Even small dogs.

The problem is, no matter what a person does, some stranger will come along and ignore all bearers, warnings, etc. Folks feel they have a right to do as they please. And if they get harmed, it's not their fault. A better system should have been in place to protect them from themselves.

She chose to trespass. She chose to stick her face over the fence. And her Mother let her do both of those things. It was a neighbor, so I doubt they did not know there was a dog back there.

If she was checking out gators, the Mother would be questioned concerning child abuse. For allowing her child to get close to a gator to 'see' it.

[undeterred]

43. Now you're just making things up.

The story does not say that she stuck her face in the yard or that she hung over the fence. You made that up. The story does not say that she taunted the animal or provoked it in any way. The story merely says she peered over the fence. She was standing on the other side of the fence, and the dog jumped up and took a chunk of her face.

The fence was not high enough to protect the neighborhood from a dog that would bite without provocation. And if the dog could reach a 12 year old girl, the height of the fence was probably no more than 5 feet. To contain this animal the owner should have had a 6 or 7 foot fence.

[TwilightGardener]

51. Aaaand that's why cities have ordinances against gators/wild beasts as pets.

You're comparing domesticated dogs to dangerous predatory wild animals--something has gone tragically awry with your argument. Plus, children are curious and will peek over fences--that's the nature of children. They'll cut across yards, they'll pet dogs they don't know, etc. The owner either seals up his dog like Fort Knox, or suffers a total financial wipeout from the well-deserved lawsuit. That's the way it is. People with swimming pools have to have tall fences and gates.

[seabeyond]

53. or the person inadvertently pegged the dangers of the pit along with a "wild"

animal.

[TwilightGardener]

54. Yes, true--if there's any comparison, then they don't belong in city limits.

[TorchTheWitch]

34. Thanks for bringing up the obvious

Though of course I feel badly this girl was bitten it was foolish to put her face or any other appendage over the fence into the dog's territory. What the dog did by biting her was normal dog behavior in protecting that property. People can be unbelievably stupid when it comes to dogs they don't know, which is why I go overboard in protecting stupid people from themselves when it comes to my own dog. When he's in the yard, I'm out there with him, and there are MANY times I've had to tell both strangers and neighbors not to go right up close to the fence or reach over it. Children especially need to be taught not to do things to invite harm... stay away from the fence, don't tease the dog behind the fence, etc.

However, anyone with a dog that is protective of their property should have that property clearly marked with "Beware of Dog" signs, and it is my guess that this particular owner did not. Nevertheless, peering over anyone's fence whether they have a dog in the yard or not is invasive, and the mother of this child bears a certain amount of responsibility in allowing her child to trespass in this way. Had the child not invaded the property by puting her face over the fence, the bite would not have occurred. But since there are nosey stupid people everywhere and children who don't know better, proper signage can go a long way in curtailing it... but not always since some people are really that stupid.

It does bother me that the article is written in such a way as to portray the dog as vicious and the owners as irresponsible while glossing over the personal responsibility of the mother of this child to not permit her to invade another's property and invite possible harm by puting her face over someone's fence. The dog behaved in a way that is normal for a dog, and the owners had the dog properly contained.

[undeterred]

49. You are projecting onto this story

The only thing the story says is that the girl was peering over the fence. Not that she was hanging over or reaching over, just peering over. In my neighborhhood there was a fenced in yard where the fence ran all the way up to the sidewalk, and there were 3 very nasty dogs on the other side. However, the fence was 8 feet high, so no matter how terrible all the barking and growling sounded (and no matter how close to the fence a bypasser came) it was impossible for the dogs to hurt anyone.

If you have dangerous dogs and live in a neighborhood with children, it seems like you should be responsible enough to build a fence that actually CONTAINS the dogs, especially if you can't be bothered to go outside and supervise their behavior.

If you can't be bothered to build a high enough fence to contain your dangerous dogs, and you can't be bothered to stay with them when they are outside, you shouldn't have dangerous dogs.

[seabeyond]

18. ya ya ya, i know. pit bulls dont kill people, its the owners that kill. n/t

[The Straight Story]

20. Somewhat true - as most owners probably treat their dogs well

And those that neglect or abuse their dogs are creating an animal that would be more harmful.

Once again, people misuse things and some want to ban the things...

[seabeyond]

23. ya well....

you and i would probably agree that personal responsibility takes precedent over good of whole as in, not banning the gun or the pit bull cause of individual rights.

i dont believe in banning pit bulls

i dont like them in neighborhoods either

yet i stand for someones right to have one

but many that will stand up for the pit bull will absolutely insist guns dont kill people, people do saying is utter bullshit and all guns should be banned

hypocrisy, in a word.

[KurtNYC]

32. So if I have a tiger in my front yard and treat it well it won't attack

anyone?

You don't think breeding dogs for dog fights to the death has ANYTHING to do with the statistic on lethal pitbull attacks?

[The Straight Story]

40. Not sure I get what you are saying here

I think training dogs for fights does have a lot to do with it, and tigers are not dogs.

[KurtNYC]

42. I'm saying that selectively breeding dogs for fighting has produced

a population of staffordshire terrier related dogs which have the ability and the temperment to maul people and other dogs/animals.

And it happens EVERY day...

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/18566273/detail.html#-

and that attitude of the owners is often like that guy:
"It was an accident, man," Carroll said. "Stuff happens. I hated that it had to happen."

A 57YO woman has her legs mauled to the bone while taking out her garbage and the guy who made it happen says "Stuff happens."

[williesgirl]

21. Why did the mother let the girl hang over someone's fence? Parental responsibility

looms here too. That dog couldn't have bit her if she'd left him alone. The owners had a fence for a reason - keep out. Quite simple. Folks need to learn to respect other's property and boundaries and teach their kids by example. I'm sorry the girl was hurt, but the mom needs to look in the mirror, not just call for a ban on these dogs.

[guitar man]

27. I disagree

As someone who has owned and loved "bully" dogs all my life,including several dogs that can be described as "pitbulls" I have to say that dog should not have bitten that child. Children often hop fences and do things that they ought not do, I know I did when I was a kid. That's no excuse for the dog to bite the child.

[K Gardner]

33. My neighbor's pit bull jumped their fence 2 weeks ago, charged through my back door which

was not shut completely, attacked my two dogs and attacked me when I tried to break the fight up. The dog was in my house in full attack mode for 20 minutes until, sliding in the blood that streaked the floor and stumbling over furniture and glass which had been shattered, I managed to open the front door and drag the snarling mass of beast out my front door. My dogs and I both had to be treated. I'd known this dog since it was a precious pup and it was well-aquainted with my dogs through the back yard fence, no prior problems at all. There had been no history of maltreatment, no prior history of attacks. No one knows what happened or why. I only know it was terrifying.

Still, I don't advocate a ban on pit bulls. And through my work with rescue groups in the area (English bulldogs, not pitbulls), I believe any dog can be rehabilitated and can find a suitable home and a responsible owner. These posts I've read here recently about "banning" or, more horribly, euthanizing dogs simply because of its breed are disturbing.

[seabeyond]

35. let me get this straight. well loved pit, fenced yard, not abused, socialized to you, ....

comes into YOUR house causing injury and mess and fear to you and dogs

and intellectually you stand by these dogs that kill, that can kill if there was a little child in that house, like your child or grandchild, someone you love.....

and we are to NOT be bothered

i am full of sympathy for your experience. i would be a mess. BUT i am really confused on your conclusion

[K Gardner]

37. I just don't think an entire breed should be penalized - that's really the short answer :-)

[seabeyond]

38. cause a potential death is worth the risk? this animal was loved, fenced and socialized

i am astounded at this conclusion.

now granted, my own personal experience is such that i might have an off perspective. i lived next to two pits, that were not well socialized, territorial, aggressive, and would be allowed out and terrorize the neighborhood for 8 years. my kids couldn't go out in front yard without parent and a glance at neighbors yard to make sure their front gate was shut. much of our time over the years we didn't use our front yard, but stayed in the protection of the fenced backyard. when i had to mow our yard, (huge) i always had to keep an eye toward that yard especially as i got to that end of the yard.

8 yrs

they recently moved and we had our first summer without the threat. i just cannot express the freedom i felt without having a threat, danger, something bad waiting to happen.

nothing can justify in my mind putting peoples lives, children, the elderly in danger, as they mind their own business, on their own property and being attacked, chewed on, bled out, by a dog. i cannot wrap my mind around such a validation for owning the animal.

[K Gardner]

39. I'm not saying individual animals who are aggressive/dangerous should not be either

removed from a home, where they DO endanger people (like you and me!), or in worst case scenarios, euthanized. I think you and I both would be happy (after our experiences) not to ever see another pitbull. But still, the entire breed banned or euthanized? Even Michael Vicks poor dogs were rehabilitated and placed after spending time at Dogtown and other qualified foster homes.

I think the problem here is not only with owners, but with breeders. Is the violence/aggression an inbred/overbred trait? I don't know. I do know with English bullies, they've been so inbred/overbred by reckless breeders wanting to make big bucks that the things that once made them so precious are now making them difficult to own and many born very, very sick; requiring thousands of dollars of medical treatments and surgeries. That's why we rescue so many from parking lots, puppy mills, animal shelters and abusive homes.

So maybe instead of banning the breed, the breeders of these animals need to come under some close scrutiny. I really don't know what the answer is. I wish I did.

[seabeyond]

47. i would prefer people be responsible and not decide on this breed as pets in a neighborhood

where all gather to live in harmony. but... it is a dog to make others feel manly, so being responsible wont be an equation. and then when a socialized, loved pit jumps a fence and goes into someones house and causes damage and possibly worse, they will merely shrug and say, stuff happens.

in deciding on a breed, we took our neighbors into account, kids coming ot our house and the fact that a dog is.... only an animal and will behave as such, with no greater expectation. so being the clever people that we are, the ability to think beyond our animal self, we chose an animal that would not do ultimate damage to others, even if she were to get out, which we have made sure she never has in 7 yrs.

i dont believe in banning, i dont believe in exterminating and i dont believe in denying that these animals are dangerous in order to protect them either. it is not just the dog with a bad owner.

[K Gardner]

50. I think you and Bloo (post below) have a good idea here: to somehow limit the

ability of people to own dogs like this in neighborhood areas. Not sure how one would go about enforcing something like that, but it surely is a first step in protecting the innocent from animals who, maybe even through no fault of their own, "go bad".

I've thought about this a LOT this afternoon, due to some very thoughtful discourse here in this thread.

Not everyone is Cesar Milano (spelling?) and not everyone can handle/train or rehabilitate aggressive breeds. Given that not everyone is Cesar, and innocents are constantly at risk, I do agree that something has to be done.

Now, alas, I head to work for a 12-hour night shift ! Later all :-)

[TwilightGardener]

45. I'm also curious as to your conclusion, because you've described about

as ideal an upbringing and training as most dogs have had, and the dog still snapped and attacked and caused serious harm. Not because someone invaded his home turf, or took his food bowl away, or because he had arthritis in his hips and kid jumped on him--this sounds totally unprovoked, and he came onto YOUR dogs' territory to attack. That would terrify me enough to see that the dog is put down, at the very least, for public safety, and I'm not so sure I could be as forgiving. I've had stray dogs wander into my yard (including a pit bull mix that lives across the street), but they've never tried to get into my house, and my dogs have always been able to chase them away.

On edit, I think a good way to deal with pit bull owners is to jack up their homeowner's insurance massively, or refuse to insure if there's an incident.

[swishyfeet]

41. Ban them!

There is no other solution that will make a difference.

Here's a nice link if you're not familiar with what Pit Bulls do.

http://pit-bulls.christianfunfair.org/attacks.htm

[BlooInBloo]

44. (shrug) Take the top 3 dog attack dogs, and regulate their ownership....

You don't have to say the phrase "pit bull" at all. No need to get the "I don't care how many people die - they're not dangerous!" nuts all riled up.

[Blue_Tires]

48. ugh...i hate the breeding/fighting/discarding industry

where no one ever actually loves the dogs...why is it a surprise when these dogs go wild in people's communities?

[Bucky]

52. If you outlaw pit bulls only pit bulls will own guns. No, wait, that's not how it goes...

This pit bull violence shows how you can't appease aggressors. If a pit bull bites you, you must bite it back. If you don't, you're only asking for them to come back and bite you again.

[uppityperson]

56. Simple answer. Ban all big dogs. Have serious consequences for owners of any dog that bites.

Since being able to correctly ID a "pit bull" is very difficult, many short haired stocky dogs are assumed to be "pit bulls" incorrectly. Since media sells papers with "OMG! PIT BULL ATTACKS!!!11" on it, of course they will report "omg pit bull attacks" stories, even if they are not pit bulls but things like golden retrievers. Since some owners train their dogs to be vicious, or do not train them to not be, they should not be allowed dogs. Since bigger dog bites are more serious than smaller dog bites, ban any dog over, say 40 lbs. Anyone who has a dog that bites (now that they are all small dogs their bites still hurt but may not kill) should be penalized, have serious consequences.


Or, how about, for starts, people report all dog bites, media reports all dog bites, anyone with a dog who bites has serious consequences?