The "Purpose-Driven" Wife....from Mother Jones upcoming edition.

[madfloridian]

Just like we used to hear in the Southern Baptist churches back in the 50s and 60s....the religious right is defining again the role of submission women should play in the home. Familiar names in this article are Rick Warren and Rev. Al Mohler among others.

The Purpose-Driven Wife: Teaching women to submit to their husbands, for the love of Christ.

The author is speaking of the works of Martha Peace, an older woman who helps young wives learn their role of submission to their husbands.

Peace is here to help. Over the past two decades, the 62-year-old Georgia native and former nurse has written five books on biblical womanhood, conservative Christianity's answer to the women's movement. Among them are The Excellent Wife, now a classic in this burgeoning niche, and Damsels in Distress, a set of biblical solutions to female problems ranging from pms to depression to "feminist tendencies." It's common for a young Christian wife to rebel against home life as her primary ministry, Peace writes in Becoming a Titus 2 Woman, which lays out the principles of her ministry model. It's the role of older women to help her understand her priorities.

These "priorities" are defined further.

Those priorities may include rising early to feed the family, being available anytime to satisfy a husband's desires (barring a few "ungodly" or "homosexual" acts), seeking his approval regarding work, appearance, and leisure, and accepting that he has the "burden" of final say in arguments. After a wife has respectfully appealed her spouse's decision—a privilege she should not abuse—she must accept his final answer as "God's will for her at that time," Peace advises. The godly wife must also suppress selfish desires (for romance, a career, an equitable marriage), practice addressing her spouse in soothing tones, and maintain a private log of bitter thoughts to guide her repentance. "If you disobey your husband," Peace admonishes in The Excellent Wife, "you are indirectly shaking your fist at God."

I had never heard of the "mentoring" tradition.

The mentoring tradition, carried out largely by thousands of lay churchwomen, fell into neglect starting in the 1960s—its leaders blame feminism—but has since enjoyed a strong resurgence in congregations ranging from the millions-strong Southern Baptist Convention to the constellation of independent Reformed evangelical churches. (Saddleback megachurch pastor Rick Warren, Obama's controversial pick for the inaugural invocation, also preaches wifely submission. The church website cites Ephesians: "So you wives must willingly obey your husbands in everything, just as the Church obeys Christ.")

..."Indeed, the Titus 2 movement finds its most prominent voices in the Kentucky-based Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood and a roster of conservative male theologians that includes John Piper, founder of Desiring God Ministries; John MacArthur, megachurch pastor of Grace Community Church; Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary; and Bruce Ware, president of the Evangelical Theological Society, who caused a public stir last June when he told a Texas audience that domestic violence often stems from women's lack of submission. (Mohler irked fellow hardliners last fall when he and others reached for loopholes to justify Sarah Palin's candidacy as biblically permissible. "Palin represents the feminist lie that a woman can do it all," countered one critic at fundamentalist website VisionForum.com.)

Mohler, mentioned above, seems to be among those further seeking to further subjugate women by denying them even the right to birth control

He is the head of the Southern Baptist Seminary, charged with teaching a new generation of pastors.

"..."First, we must start with a rejection of the contraceptive mentality that sees pregnancy and children as impositions to be avoided rather than as gifts to be received, loved, and nurtured. This contraceptive mentality is an insidious attack upon God's glory in creation, and the Creator's gift of procreation to the married couple."

The Mother Jones article sums up the Titus 2 mentoring method, saying "The Lord's system is righteous, ungrateful feelings are sins to be surmounted, and feminist rebellion is a cultural scourge to be eradicated. The radical leap taken by Titus 2 women is unconditional surrender—an army of Phyllis Schlaflys, fighting for their own subordination based on the promise that the meek shall inherit the Earth."

[hlthe2b]

1. Ahhh, misogyny..... the last refuge for

very tiny men (if ya know what I mean)....:puke:

[madaboutharry]

2. This is really sickening.

I don't know what else to say.

[SammyWinstonJack]

27. It really is.

:puke: :puke: :puke:

[polichick]

3. Martha Peace probably sews burkas in her spare time.

[Blue_Tires]

56. and welds together Chastity Belts

[Iris]

67. wouldn't those interfere with - "being available anytime to satisfy a husband's desires"?

[grace0418]

88. Hubby gets to keep the only copy of the key.

Don't you know anything? ;)

[Iris]

129. well, no. Guess I've been goin' to the wrong church!

lol!

[Matariki]

4. These people would be far, far happier if they were honest with themselves

and just got into S&M

[Mari333]

6. BINgo!! you hit the nail on the head! nt

[lapfog_1]

10. I'm pretty sure they already have the Nazi regalia...

not that it's required for S&M.

[Pushed To The Left]

36. I thought of that, but it sounds like the author is against the kinky stuff ("homosexual" or

"ungodly" acts)

[jmowreader]

61. They ARE into S&M...

but they have a different name for it:

http://www.christiandomesticdiscipline.com

[madmom]

65. OMFG! this site is a hoot. LOL, thanks for a good laugh to brighten up my day. : )

[wildflower]

99. OMG, is that site for real???

Please tell me it's satire.

[jmowreader]

108. I would if I could, but it's not so I can't

Google "Christian Domestic Discipline" and you'll find a lot of sites related to it.

[Kermitt Gribble]

109. LOL! Can these people not see how ridiculous they are?

[Faygo Kid]

112. Wild, crazy stuff. You ought to post it as its own thread.

Wow. Just wow.

[Maven]

81. LOL

You are so, so right.

[kestrel91316]

5. "....feminist rebellion is a cultural scourge to be eliminated...."

So how do they plan to deal with feminist scourges such as myself: independent single women who support themselves and bow before NO man??? I guess we'll be second to be stoned to death, right after the gays.

[NewJeffCT]

8. You might be lucky

they might not think women like you exist...

[Hello_Kitty]

95. In A Handmaid's Tale we were sent to toil in the salt mines.

Or, if attractive enough, we'd be prostitutes for the wealthy fundie men. Or, if young and fertile, we would be Handmaids - women who bore babies for infertile rich women.

[friendly_iconoclast]

100. Seems like Martha peace wants to be an Aunt

In other contexts, she would be a Judenrat.

[jmowreader]

110. Unfortunately for you...

if your Commander was the sterile one, you were going to the Colonies if you couldn't produce children.

This is what makes Using Doctors so attractive, but if you get caught they hang you AND the Doctor.

[City Lights]

7. Please refresh my memory...what year is it?

:puke:

[ThoughtCriminal]

9. More AdBot irony

Currently running at the bottom of this page:
Find "Your Ukrainian Beauty"

I wonder which keywords triggered this bit of context-sensitive placement?

[glitch]

57. No kidding -- adbot is becoming another source for ironic amusement.

I wonder if they know that.

[givemebackmycountry]

11. Jesus Christ, what REAL man would want a woman like THIS?

"Those priorities may include rising early to feed the family, being available anytime to satisfy a husband's desires (barring a few "ungodly" or "homosexual" acts), seeking his approval regarding work, appearance, and leisure, and accepting that he has the "burden" of final say in arguments. After a wife has respectfully appealed her spouse's decision—a privilege she should not abuse—she must accept his final answer as "God's will for her at that time," Peace advises. The godly wife must also suppress selfish desires (for romance, a career, an equitable marriage), practice addressing her spouse in soothing tones, and maintain a private log of bitter thoughts to guide her repentance. "If you disobey your husband," Peace admonishes in The Excellent Wife, "you are indirectly shaking your fist at God."

I love women. STRONG, INDEPENDENT, SMART women.

One thing I take away from this article, is that the men in these type of relationships are PUSSIES.
You hear that you so called MEN?
You are PUSSIES!

If I wanted a robot in a relationship, I'd drop six grand on a "Real Doll".
I'm living in Florida now and every now and then I encounter people like this.

This is some stupid shit.

"The godly wife must also suppress selfish desires (for romance, a career, an equitable marriage), practice addressing her spouse in soothing tones, and maintain a private log of bitter thoughts to guide her repentance. "If you disobey your husband," Peace admonishes in The Excellent Wife, "you are indirectly shaking your fist at God."

The GODLY wife.
Ugh, how thoroughly unattractive.

[dustbunnie]

12. I don't know - it reads like the typical Good Housekeeping type of article from the '50s.

And since that was basically the way the average woman behaved back then, it seems lots of men were/are okay with it. Of course, the stats for women self-medicating with alcohol and drugs went through the roof in the '50s as well, so guess there's always a price to be paid for that level of subjugation.

[madfloridian]

14. One of the 50s magazines advocated saran wrap

as the appropriate clothing to greet one's husband after a day at work.

I remember that clearly, but not the author.

We are going backwards in time.

[dustbunnie]

16. Lol, I'll have to remember that... it'd be good for a hoot!

:D

Seriously though, we are going backwards in time.

I wonder if Ms. Peace got her hands on a bunch of old 50s mags and is just regurgitating the material.

[sufrommich]

19. That was Marabel Morgan from her 1974 book

The Total Woman. As I recall, it was a backlash against the feminist movement at the time. As I also recall, most women pointed and laughed.

[madfloridian]

23. That's who it was. But there was someone in the 50s...

pushing stuff like this and having church forums. Maybe not the sexy stuff, but the submission stuff. I remember speaking up once on the topic one Sunday....wow, no tolerance.

Seems like it is coming back with a vengeance.

[Raksha]

107. I remember that Marabel Morgan book from the 1970s.

I even read it, although I'm can't quite recall WHY! For laughs, I think.

[mia]

114. Went to a Total Woman workshop back in the 70's - Marabel

Morgan really did say that women should greet their husbands wrapped in Saran Wrap - sitting on top of the refrigerator, no less. My whole marriage was characterized by this Bible-oriented submission routine. It took me 12 years to wake up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marabel_Morgan

[Sequoia]

130. OMG, I remember that book !!

Hells, bells, I got so mad I threw it against the wall.

[Bette Noir]

32. I think it was 1970s. I remember the book, but not the title or author.

Oops-- I see someone else rememered for me.

[Dollface]

39. Actually that sounds kind of fun. And I mean that in a non-submissive Jane of the Jungle way

But I guess if women enjoy it becomes "ungodly" behavior.

[Beartracks]

113. Saran wrap? I like your observation...

"I remember that clearly"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Nay]

20. Yes, it does. There were, and I assume there still are, plenty of men

who'd be perfectly happy with a slave for a wife. After all, if everything gets taken care of at home, he can come home and relax instead of doing anything around the house.
Watch some realism-based movies from the time -- you'll get sick at how simpering and juvenile the women act.

[dustbunnie]

24. Simpering and juvenile were the good women.

Then there were the hysterical, emotionally unstable ones who couldn't handle the slightest situation without losing it completely. Blagh!!!

[backtoblue]

73. read the hannity thread that someone posted today..

It seems that men are perfectly happy with enslaving women - so long as it's the woman's choice.

[Lorien]

54. Here you go:

[sufrommich]

58. Actually, this was proven to be a fabrication according to Snopes.

However, a quick look through any women's magazine from the 50s is a pretty sobering experience for modern women who didn't live through the 2nd wave of the women's liberation movemen.t A couple of episodes of Mad Men will have the same effect.

[grace0418]

87. I have a Betty Crocker cookbook from around 1959 that has a section about how

to be a good housewife. It's not so far off from the item posted above, even if that one isn't real. It's truly terrifying. In a cookbook!

[sufrommich]

91. I think that's why the fake article is believable, it doesn't venture

far from the truth of that era.

[madfloridian]

92. You are right.

I remember seeing that cookbook. It was just about like that page that was posted.

[Lorien]

96. Checked Snopes. It says that it's authenticity is "undetermined". nt

[raccoon]

60. It's debated whether that's authentic or not, though it certainly distills the worst

of gender roles back then.

http://www.snopes.com/language/document/goodwife.asp

[backtoblue]

77. this makes me want to...

:puke:

[greenbird]

115. I've got to respectfully disagree with your statement

"since that was basically the way the average woman behaved back then . . ."

Not really. People were people. In my 50s neighborhood we had stay-at-home moms, single moms, (including a single professional mom who was a rocket scientist) . . . those were different times, and it's a mistake to judge people of a past time by today's standards. I have memories of a lot of different family situations, and I'm sure that some of them included subjugation of the wife. But it's an oversimplification and revisionist to assume anything about the "average woman" of the 50s. Magazine articles from that era don't necessarily reflect the real hearts and minds of the people living then. What the OP describes is crazy; we've always had pockets of crazy.

[NBachers]

34. "Real Doll?"

I never heard of "Real Dolls" before. I had to look it up.

Jeez- Cue up Alice Cooper's "I Love the Dead" on the ol' turntable.

Now I'm afraid to go to bed. I'm afraid I'll be chased through dreamland by angry blobs of silicone with exaggerated body parts.

[madfloridian]

13. More advice from Martha on being a godly wife.

good spousekeeping

Martha Peace on how to be the wife God intended

* On feminism: "Instead of dwelling on what I think I deserve, I should be thinking that I am to serve the Lord graciously, however He chooses."
* On widowhood: "Younger widows are to remarry rather than have idle time to gossip."
* On extramarital friendships: "Turn from wrong thinking about the other person to right thinking about God and your responsibility to honor and worship Him."
* On pms: "Lord, forgive me for maligning You. Instead, use me for your glory however you choose. If the pms symptoms have to continue, they'll just have to continue."
* On vanity: "Beauty is one of the ways the adulteress draws her prey... it is all right to have some external adornment, because stripping oneself of all makeup and wearing only plain, drab clothing does not make a woman more pleasing to God."

Eeeek

[grace0418]

42. But, wait, I thought I was supposed to submit to my husband regarding my appearance?

What if he wants me to be all made up and beautiful? I'm supposed to let him have the final say in all arguments, but what if my beauty draws prey like an adulteress?

I guess either way it will be my fault and I should be stoned in the food court at the mall. Or maybe in the middle of one of those giant superchurches.

[Iris]

69. lol - love the food court reference!

And your picture of the first couple is a great juxtaposition for your words!

[grace0418]

89. Thanks. I love that photo.

Smart, good-hearted people who love and respect each other are sexy!

[sufrommich]

15. Good Lord.....

[tosh]

117. Exactly....

I read madfloridian's journal and was literally :rofl: about half-way through.

Fuck that!! :rofl:

[Uncle Joe]

17. Don't forget the sequel to this book, kids.

"The Purpose Driven Knife."

[8 track mind]

22. Or these fine titles!

Now from the publishers of the "Purpose Driven Wife", we now offer you these fine books for improved godly living!

* "In the name of the Lord, Get yer ass 'n the kitchen an fix me a sammich!"

* "Chasity belts for the 21st century"

* "Serve your Husband or God will send you to the holy barbecue below because he loves you!"



In all seriousness however, this is pathetic. The author of "The Purpose Driven Wife" must be one miserable person.

[tavalon]

43. Ha!

That's a good one!

[Control-Z]

102. "The Purpose Driven Knife."

Too funny. :rofl:

[LWolf]

18. .

:nuke:

I honestly can't construct a coherent response.

[lunatica]

21. I love being oppressed, subjugated and told what when why and wherefore

To think, open my mouth, serve the big strong men in my life and put myself at the end of every line and the bottom of every ladder. I am woman. And one day God will love me if I grovel enough.

[Mari333]

25. Its kind of like being a prostitute without getting any money isnt it. nt

[madfloridian]

26. That could be called a fairly good description.

Except they really feel they are serving God by honoring their husbands and being submissive. I went to church with people like this, and I got many lectures from them for being too independent. My family changed churches when I was divorced in the 70s. The one we went to was intolerant. Neighbors were also. That was supposed to be an enlightened era...supposed to be.

[knitter4democracy]

28. Been there, lived that, getting the divorce.

He grew up in that kind of home, and even though he assured me that he wanted an equal marriage, he turned it into that kind of marriage with me kicking and screaming but ultimately going along because we have kids and I didn't want a divorce. Turns out his was cheating for over half of our marriage and used that kind of crap to keep me from finding out about it.

Honestly, if I could talk with those women, I would warn them off. Giving the man all the power corrupts him.

[madfloridian]

29. Also giving that much power to a man who is not capable....just wrong.

And you are right, I can see where it would tend to lead to abuse.

[keroro gunsou]

30. for the love of christ...

maybe some of these preachers should make their own damn dinners and clean their own damn houses for a change.

man i'm bitchy tonight....

[bperci108]

118. Reminds me of an old Bloom County strip.

Local fundamentalist crank Otis Oracle walks in the front door and demands his wife fix his dinner and reminds her of her wifely duties when she refuses...




The last frame is him in the kitchen in a frilly apron reading the directions ".....peel back foil to expose tater-tots..."



:evilgrin:

[Bette Noir]

31. Best reason ever to leave the Church.

Thank God for my wonderful Jewish husband.

[earcandle]

33. One paragraph in, I want to vomit. Ouroboros, I'll be damned.

I like my secular husband.  

We don't have a deference patterned communication style
relationship and don't want one. 

Deference communication styles may be required in teacher,
parent and employer relationships if one wants to 
get what one needs from people and to grow up to be an active
member of a civilized society with something to do. 

Relationship patterned communication styles are reserved for
the more mature folks who live up to the tasks.  
These folks function as peers with responsibilities and the
clarity to communicate with aligned purpose between partners. 
This 
is really nice and I think this is more a democratic mode of
communications and more advanced than the one of submission
suggested
in the article.  

This religious attempt to dis-empower women, who are already
free and in action is vicious and a scare tactic.

Don't buy into it.  It's really fucked up and it just makes
liars, thieves, and de-sensitized people in return. 
I know most of this crowd are smarter than that, but I write
for those who may not be so smart.  
IMNSHO

[Skittles]

35. disgusting

:puke:

[acmavm]

37. You can't put the genie back in the bottle. Women don't do slavery

meekly anymore.

[ehrnst]

38. Yes, be meek so you can eventually run everything.

The very definition of passive agressive.

[grace0418]

40. I'm glad I read this before breakfast.

What the fucking fuck is wrong with these people? Do you get a free burqa with each book purchase? :puke:

[tavalon]

41. I got married in the Southern Baptist Church when I was 19,

my husband to be was a lapsed Catholic but the big problem my preacher had was that I wanted our relationship to be an equal partnership and he kept bringing up that the woman must obey. We went round and round in the mandatory counseling around that issue but he still married us and I think that was the last time I darkened a door at a Southern Baptist Church!

[spiritual_gunfighter]

44. Why are fundamentalist Christians so afraid of women? n/t

[sufrommich]

49. It's not just Christian fundamentalist that target women, it's

all fundamentalist religions.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

62. True n/t

[riderinthestorm]

45. I thought I remembered reading a study a while back that this kind of misogynist thinking rears its

ugly head during stressful economic times as men try to whittle down their employment competition by eliminating the female half of the population as contenders.

Oh sure, it's couched in "Christian" terms but if I can recall, there's a cyclical economic trend that accompanies the ramping up of this kind of rhetoric.

Also, I'd like to remind the cultural relativists on the burqa threads, who believe that women should be "allowed" to choose that kind of repression and we must respect (and stay silent) about that cultural "choice" - Peace's argument is just a variation on that misogynistic theme. The garments the women put on (oftentimes willingly) stems from this kind of twisted rationale about the place of women and their role in society, relationships, the economy etc.

As Peace amply demonstrates, women who are either culturally indoctrinated into this kind of thinking and/or who are beaten into submission, can be the greatest promotors of the subjugation of their fellow females.

That doesn't make it right.

[sufrommich]

48. Great post!

:thumbsup:

[havocmom]

50. Always figured the bigger/stronger portion of a population may want to exert some control

Especially in times when they know, deep inside, that the circumstances of their lives are actually completely out of their control.

Look for domestic violence to increase as the economy fails. Look out for vulnerable members of you immediate community. Some people, and lots of kids, will need champions to protect them in the coming months/years.

Subjugating the less physically strong lends some sense of power to mental brutes (male and female, but the way). Frankly, I am old enough to really resent being a thumb and blankey for unthinking religious followers of the 'you men who are godly get to be the boss of the world' persuasion. Nothing godly about a guy (or woman) who has to push 'loved ones' around and make them less than nature made them: thinking individuals.

[havocmom]

53. Lilith had every right to her independence. They demonized her for exercising her free will.

And: Eve was framed!

(the latter statement is on my favorite tee shirty)

[madrchsod]

46. hmmm....i guess these these boys never heard of rue water....

southern baptists sure are a strange bunch. their hatred of women because they are unclean and take the men`s virility goes back thousands of years. one would think society would have progressed by now.

[havocmom]

47. A very elemental friend once told me 'some people are not able to evolve'

Over the years, I see the truth of her assertion. And it goes a long way toward explaining why some people are so adamant that evolution does not happen to human beings. They don't have the gene for change.

[KG]

51. when you believe in an imaginary friend in the sky, can this kind of lunacy be far behind?

[HillWilliam]

52. "Martha Peace" You gotta be pullin' my leg

That can't be a real name. Why didn't they just come out and call her Sister Amen if they were going from zero to hokey in six seconds anyway?

You'd have to be pure-dee repuke to fall for this shit in the first place. At the risk of a pun, good gawdamighty. Something this weird, sick, cultish, regressive, freakish, repressive, and third-world could only come from the mind of a true-believer repug wackogelical.

"Martha Peace" my fruit-flavored arse.

How sickly transparent could they possibly get?

P. T. Barnum was right. Sigh.

[dustbunnie]

59. I had a good chortle at that one myself!

[derby378]

55. "As long as God is a male, the male is God"

I forget who said that, but that sounds like Peace's theology in a nutshell. It's also known as "Dick Power."

[Manifestor_of_Light]

97. Yep, that's Christianity's formula.

Penis equals wisdom.

[barbtries]

63. horrifying

we're people, goddammit, let us be people.

[rasputin1952]

64. A little history here...

In Founding Mothers by Linda Grant De Pauw, (a book I highly recommend, for ages 12 and above btw); she notes that women in Europe, and by extension eventually to the Colonies, in the period just before the Revolution 2 books appeared that radically changed how women lost rights and privileges they had enjoyed in Colonial America, particularly those women out in the "country".

The two books were by Dr's of the time; Dr. Gregory's, A Fathers Legacy To His Daughters and Dr. Fordyce's Sermons To Young Women. These came on the heels of several pamphlets and books on women should act in Europe. These two books became the template for the subjugation of women in the future US.

Until the time these notions took hold, women in Colonial America were not quite "equals" with their male counterparts, but they had far more leverage in how they lived their lives. They were far more common as medical practitioners, business owners and other "male" jobs than most people realize. They were essentially sexually free, they did damn near everything men did, from felling trees to fighting battles alongside their male counterparts...and then a whole lot more, from housekeeping and child rearing to laundry and weaving the clothes for their families. In more cases than not, especially during the initial period of Colonization, women were virtually equal almost respects. Common Law marriage or convenience to survival were the basics as far as relations were concerned. Love, as we describe it today, had little ot just about nothing to do with relationships, although many couples did eventually "fall in love"...respect was generally the rule in these relationships. However, when the two books mentioned above, and a little before their appearance, women became "property", and there were some serious abuse by both males and females, some before, but a LOT later on.

The two Dr's mentioned above changed everything Colonial America thought of the roles of women. The change was radical and disastrous for women. Women became just a step above slaves, (another subjugation that I find despicable), and in many ways, it remains as such.

Women have been subjugated in most, but not all societies, in quite a few, they have been revered, as they give life. For eons, (and right up to today), most societies are led by some form of religion. Some religions give women equal rights, in fact, most do; it is the bastardization of a religion, and by extension, a society that subjugates women. Fear plays a large part in other forms of subjugation...but ignorance is by far, the reason anyone, (or group), is subjugated.

Women, worldwide, make up about 53% of the population. Women are not a minority, but rather a majority, however, in many parts of the world they are considered a minority and as such, they are denied basic human rights. Even in this country, women were not afforded the vote nationwide until 1920, (although there were pockets that allowed women to vote locally/statewide).

OK, so after this, my point is...women are equal to men. Human Rights are for all of humanity; men, women, children, white, black, asian...everyone, no exceptions.

For those, (quite literally), monsters that would deny any human being the same rights and privileges might well note they would not enjoy being considered a 2nd class citizen; why would they wish, or impose such a thing upon others?

OK...I've gone on too long, but I want people to know they need to fight for the Rights of everyone. The fight against ignorance seems eternal, but it can be won when we use truth and reason.

Edited for dumb tpo's. If I missed any others I appologize...:blush:

[sufrommich]

76. Interesting that Betty Friedan began "The Feminine Mystique"

questioning the very same regression from personhood in the 1950s. She tells her readers in the year the book was published (1962, I believe) that women from earlier eras ,especially in the 20s, 30s and 40s were much more "liberated" than they would be in 1962. She points to the Rosie the riveters of the forties, the popular movies of the 20s and 30s which showed career oriented woman as feisty and strong, the number of popular female journalists and writers and artists of the past and basically asks her readers at the time to contemplate what the hell happened,and thus began the 2nd wave.

[rasputin1952]

90. I would like to know if there are any Sociological reports on

why this happens.

It seems as though there is always something/someone to denigrate. I do believe it is cyclical, but I don't know just why.

A few years back, I decided to go back to school, and in my very first class ENG 101, there were 2 males and 12 females, including the instructor. 14 of us, 2 males, both of us "up there in years", and the other guy was a nutcase, (not that I have been denied that title on more than a few occasions). Anyway, the 2nd day of class, this guy, who claimed to be a "preacher", made the incredible statement that, "all women are whores." I wait a second, figuring to hear gasping and the turning of heads....but {i]nothing! Being the type of person I am, I asked him if he had a sister I could meet, which enraged him. But I didn't just grab this tiger by the tail, I was gonna whip his ass up against a tree.

He started to say something, but it was too late. I rhetorically asked him if he thought his mother was a whore, or the women in the class were whores? Were his aunts, and nieces whores as well? I kept my head, but kept the pressure on, going so far to say if he thought all women were whores, his hatred for his mother must be great, he must despise Margaret Thatcher, Nancy Reagan and all of the other "whores that have genitalia different from ours. He jumped up and said, "I don't have to take this!", to which I answered, "Yes you do! Nobody calls MY mother a whore and gets away with it" He left in a huff and I went into the hall after him, when my instructor, and eventually good friend, Julie stopped me, (I think she really thought I was going to kick this guy's ass...:evilgrin:

What I found astounding was that 11 other students, all of the female, mostly in their teens just, "took it", they almost accepted the abuse. So I went on to tell them they should never tolerate abuse like that. They had an obligation stand up for themselves and make a stand against slurs against their character, regardless of where it comes from. To this day, I honestly believe that my words fell on deaf ears, and I don't know why. Julie is an excellent instructor, and a feminist, as am I, (well actually I am a humanist, but people understand "feminist" a little easier). If I didn't go after this clod, because of her position as instructor, if she had said something, she could have gotten into quite a bit of trouble. Amazingly, the rules at the college actually favor the idiots.

He never returned, and if he really is a "preacher", I pity those in his parish.

[sufrommich]

93. It's perplexing why any of those women in your class

took that sitting down. I'm not a young woman,I'm 52 years old, so my age probably plays some part on how I view popular culture,but I see a lot of misogyny in music videos and popular culture and am continually amazed that young women don't seem to find it insulting. I also see a lot of young women feel the need to express any feminist thought with the preface "I'm not a feminist,but......".

[rasputin1952]

94. I'm a geezer at 57, and I agree that things have changed...

I have chastised people in public for calling women and "ho's". I find it incredible that there is almost a mindset for abuse.

I've fought for Human and Civil Rights my entire life, pretty soon, I won't be here anymore, and I don't want to die knowing we're not winning this war. If I live to be 100, I'll still be out there, combating abuse, ensuring people know they have Rights...but they also have obligations; not just to themselves, but for all of humanity as well.

[Hello_Kitty]

103. It's disturbing to me as well.

I'm noticing that a lot of young women seem to tolerate some really misogynistic shit and even think that they have to in order to be "cool".

[janet118]

66. Most organized religions have one purpose . . .

the diminishment and control of women's power. The power to give birth. The fundamentalist forms of religions adhere to an extreme or literal interpretation of doctrines that expose the truth of their dogma more vividly than the milder versions.

[lightningandsnow]

68. Eww.

That is all.

[backtoblue]

70. This is the very reason for my divorce...

My husband's religion gave him the idea that I, as his wife, should have been submissive to his desires and ideas, no questions asked. When seeking marriage counseling, he would only use his preacher saying that "shrinks" only wanted to take our money. Of course the preacher was sympathetic to my husband and told him that I had a "Jezabell spirit of feminism". WTF?!! Hence, I divorced the man for his core beliefs (He did not act that way before marriage).

[Iris]

72. I'm glad you got out of that marriage! Of course no church only wants someone's money

like those crazy shrinks, right? right?

[backtoblue]

74. damned shrinks anyways...

You're right! It took a "shrink" to remind me that I am not only an independent woman with my own house, job, and education, but an equal part of society. The preacher didn't quite see it that way, but was sure to take any offerings that this "jezebell" had to give.....

[Triana]

75. religious differences - he thought he was God ...

....and you didn't.

Heh.

Glad you're out. GOOD for you!

[backtoblue]

80. thanks.

He definetely thought he was God of my house. Yes, MY house, that he moved into, brought his children for me to raise. I didn't even get to stay at home and watch soaps...(lol) This is worse than what women used to have to endure - At least they didn't have to go out and answer to an asshole of a boss everyday as well!!!

[knitter4democracy]

78. He called you a Jezebel?!

I would've walked right out then. That's one of the worst things a Christian can call a woman--serious, serious insult. Basically, he called you a manipulative whore. I would've read him the riot act for that.

[backtoblue]

82. Yes

The preacher tried to say that he just meant that I was acting out and "Jezebell" was actually a reference to growing feminism as a whole in our country. I did walk out. But it took a real psychologist to help me understand and believe that there are people like this in our world. I was naive once - but I will NEVER succomb to a man's "superiority" over a woman.

[knitter4democracy]

98. He knew what he was saying, then.

What a horrible, horrible man. He wasn't referring to feminism as a whole (unless he's saying we're all manipulative whores, and if he is, I take issue with that, too).

I went to an evangelical Christian college ("Scarred for Life!" TM), and I ran into misogynists like that every frackin' day. I became known as one of the two or three serious feminists on campus, so they'd go out of their way to piss me off. I got really good at throwing Bible verses around at them.

[backtoblue]

101. I haven't been a feminist until now...

Raised in the bible belt, it is "unladylike" to get involved in controversial issues and speaking out always brings ridicule. Experiencing sexism at its core, at it's educational base, has opened my eyes to just how big and deep the problem is. It is unpopular to be a feminist, even among other women, and especially among the politicians and preachers who are so influential to others. The subject is not taught in our public schools, but maybe a short reference to Susan B. Anthony and women's sufferage. Sexism goes so far beyond the right to vote in elections and I truly wish I had the "balls" :hide: to make a public cry for support.

Support for mothers, daughters, wives, and the bearers of human life that make it possible for men to live in the first place... Maybe the very religion we tend to favor has made light of that bearing by portraying a man as the bearer of a woman....

[knitter4democracy]

116. I think most right-wing Christians completely ignore our own history.

It was women who first knew of Christ's coming, His birth, His resurrection, His coming back after death, and were the last to leave the cross. We in the Eastern church haven't forgotten their names (The woman at the well--her name is St. Photini, and she and all of her children were martyred in doing mission work), and I'm always amazed at evangelicals who don't know or honor just how instrumental women were in the early Church and later.

Instead, they focus on the few women who help their story along and then live on St. Paul's words, ignoring so much else in the NT. It's infuriating.

[sufrommich]

85. ""Jezabell spirit of feminism""

Wear it with pride,sister !

[backtoblue]

86. :)

:fistbump:

[Iris]

71. What I always wonder when I see this stuff is where is the equivalent for men?

I mean, if basically he is entitled to do whatever he wants whenever he wants it from his wife, entitled to beat her and treat her any way he sees fit, then they should spell it out in a manual just like they do for these women.

If, on the other hand, they expect the man to behave like "the" adult in the family (Lord knows, more than 1 adult in a family is t-r-o-u-b-l-e), then let's see his responsibilities towards his wife and children laid out for him with all the godly references and "it's just that simple" attitude.

[knitter4democracy]

79. They do. It's called Promise Keepers.

That's the kind of crap they teach at those get-togethers and in all their materials. They didn't even allow women pastors to attend when it first started, though they eventually changed on that.

[backtoblue]

84. It's legal in my county

to take your wife to the courthouse steps and beat your wife publically on Sundays. Of course, it's not practiced, but I just happen to live in one of the most oppressive, woman-hating areas of the south. Not just woman hating, but racists as well. I would get the hell out of here if it weren't for taking care of my grandparents.

[Iris]

128. yes, the racism and woman-hating seem to go hand in hand

I think the movie "The Long Walk Home" w/Whoopi Goldberg and Sissy Spacek drove that home for me.

[Solly Mack]

83. The contempt I have for such thinking...

I know of a woman .....no. Can't get into that. My anger is too great.

[malaise]

104. It's no wonder the hierarchy in most religions is male

It's their only control over weak women.

Hubby will have a good laugh at this tonight.

[Echo In Light]

105. As is hierarchy of most stripes

[cpompilo]

106. The Purpose Driven Wife

Brought to you by Fukus on the Family

[Gemini Cat]

121. Ha! "Fukus on the family"

Good one. I will remember that.
Welcome!

[struggle4progress]

123. Welcome to DU!

:) :toast: :)

[Kermitt Gribble]

111. Pffft! It'd do youns garsh darned librul femnist womens some good

too lissen to miss peece! Yall goin on bout yer rites an such!

[Kievan Rus]

119. These morons hate everybody...

that doesn't think like them.

Fortunately, the only way they'll ever succeed is by establishing a dictatorship...which will NEVER happen.

[Ellen Forradalom]

120. Time to whip up some 'This Oppresses Women' stickers

and pay a little visit to your Christian bookstore.

[struggle4progress]

122. Perhaps they could start pushing "Biblical footware" (sandals) or "Biblical transit" (donkeys)

Really! They completely misrepresent that old letter to Ephesians: it is a text about loving people in general

... Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love ... Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully ... Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry ... Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate ...

That infamous Pauline passage about wives submitting to husbands is part of a longer segment that tells husbands to willingly give up themselves for the sake of their wives, concluding: each one of you <husbands> also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband. This was originally a subversive text in a patriarchal slaveholding society: it preaches that, well, yes, wives do owe a duty to their husbands but that their husbands owe them exactly the same duty back

The passage is followed by similar dichotomies, such as Children, obey your parents ... Fathers, do not exasperate your children. The subversive quality of this can only be understood in historical context: under the Roman law, for example, the patriarch had complete freedom to kill his children, no matter their age or his reason, and yet here patriarchs are cautioned not even to exasperate their offspring

Similarly, the text contains the infamous passage Slaves, obey your earthly masters ... And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, of which only the first half is usually quoted. The subversive subtext, of course, is clear: if the master must treat slaves exactly as slaves treat masters, if masters cannot threaten slaves, what becomes of slavery?

Only by deliberately misreading these dichotomies, without any regard for context, can one think Paul's message to married folk is anything besides advice to get over yourself and look after your spouse

[Withywindle]

124. WTF is meant by "homosexual acts" in this context?

No act between a man and a woman is "homosexual"--by definition!


I'm guessing, by the way these ignorant prudes usually think, it's anything to do with TEH BUTT.


I mean, the #1 most popular act among gay men, as far as I can tell from my friends and generous sampling of m/m smut, is blowjobs, with handjobs a very close second. But I've never heard of a straight man refusing either from a woman on the grounds that it's "gay."

[sallylou666]

125. Southern Baptist Misogyny

In the Southern Baptist church, women cannot hold positions of leadership, including deacon (a lay leader). Sunday school classes and Bible studies are separated by gender. A woman can't even go to Bible study with her husband. My father's family is Southern Baptist. Women are supposed to bring the banana pudding to the revival and shut up. Not my kind of place. Besides, I dance and drink. See ya'll in hell. (/sarcasm)

[maxrandb]

126. Is it any wonder

you find these "fundie" types buggering young boys in the cloakroom, or playing footsie in a public Men's Room?

[seemunkee]

127. My boss, and office mate are of this mind set

Both are fundies at the same church. I hear from my office mate about all the things he does on the weekend, that never involve his wife or kids. He makes the money and can run around doing whatever he wants, but she has to stay at home with the 5 kids.