Why is it that people who work hard, strive to excel, and show aptitude keep getting kicked in the

[Deja Q]

(name the body part, we're all a bunch of nuts anyway for wanting to conform and contribute to society, if this is what it has become).

[Orrex]

1. A friend who runs a successful wedding photography advised me thus:

"You have to be willing to make an intensive effort. Effort is the key to success and to everything."

In turn, I advised him that, in the corporate world, a demonstration of effort is rewarded by a demand for further effort with no additional pay or benefit in either the short or long term.

Speaking from an outsider's perspective he disagreed, but I've never seen my assessment not borne out.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

3. He has not had to deal in the corporate world...my guess.

Am I wrong?

[Orrex]

8. Correct!

He hasn't labored in the trenches, that's for sure.

I worked in financial services for a long time, and here's an example of the "rewards" of extra effort:

Policy demands that clients are paid their commission within 15 business days of a transaction. If, however, you really go the extra mile and get one client's payment delivered in 3 business days, then a turnaround of 3 business days becomes the new policy for payments to that client, regardless of external factors or literal impossibility.

The corporate world is designed to do two things:
1. To fuck everybody in the world except the shareholders
2. To come back and fuck the employees a second time for good measure

[Tuesday Afternoon]

10. and about that fucking --

there is NO kissing or Lube involved Whatsoever!!!

And try being in health services for profit.:eyes: It is a fracking nightmare!:grr:

[Orrex]

13. It was the emory condom that really rubbed me the wrong way

And a little pillow-talk afterwards wouldn't have been out of place, either.


But no!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

16. ~the corporate world~

[Deja Q]

26. Yee-ouch! Nice metaphors, I must say...

Thanks y'all for the giggles!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[TZ]

11. academia can be like that too

I earned enemies at NIH because I worked hard and was competent and my boss got fired because he tried to fire those who were neither. Academic jealousy is as vicious as anything in the corporate world

[Orrex]

12. A good perspective to add! I don't doubt that you're 100% correct.

There are many ways to upset the status quo, but none so damning as efficient execution of one's work.

It must be a tough gig, being a Shill.

[Naturyl]

51. Yep, that's human nature. Give an inch and they take a mile.

In all too many cases, the reward for exceptional performance in any area is nothing more than the expectation that such performance will be the new standard.

People imagine, in their rather silly little rose-colored dream worlds, that employers and other authoritarian figures are somehow our friends, or at least not directly opposed to our interests. Operating under this warm and fuzzy delusion, they imagine that striving to please such persons will better their lot in life, while in reality it will usually only demonstrate that they are willing suckers, ready to be further exploited.

[sendero]

14. Exactly..

.. you have to do enough work that there is no question you are earning your pay. If you do more, you are considered a sucker to be taken advantage of.

[Orrex]

15. Yes indeed!

And doesn't that just crystalize the real sickness of our society?

[SharonAnn]

53. I agree with you. Do a lot, they expect a lot. Do more, they expect more. No more pay,

but more work.

That, and play the office politics well enough to survive.

One thing I finally learned was to get out when they put really dysfunctional management in charge. There's no fixing them. They just act out all their dysfunction on the workers and there's no avoiding it.

[Mike 03]

2. My personal experience is that you can puke your guts out to achieve a goal, and give everything

humanly possible, and still not achieve that goal.

For what it's worth.

[geckosfeet]

5. Yes. And then you die and no one cares, unless you body is inconveniencing them.

[Demeter]

4. Because Alpha Animals Are Like That

it sucks, but that's what you are up against.

[Deja Q]

25. I thought we were human, better than that...

Then again, if Charles Manson convinced a bunch of hippies he was a good guy, Reagan and Bush and all their buddies convinced the American people they were Christian...

[Demeter]

33. Some Humans Are Human

Some under any circumstances, some are only fair-weather humans, and some I suspect, are never(Dick Cheney comes to mind),

[Tangerine LaBamba]

6. Rejection is part of the human condition........

Whether it's in work, love, family, friends, anything - you're always in a position to be judged and found wanting.

So what?

The amateurs fold and whine and curl up and never do anything else except lament their fate.

The pros get up and do it again. And again. And again.

You just have to keep getting up. Maybe you won't succeed, but if you don't try, you're gonna lose anyway. So why not go down swinging?

[Deja Q]

28. Logical.

And is the part of the song "Freedom of Choice" that Devo keeps forgetting to put back in too... :)

A victim of collision on the open sea
Nobody ever said that life was free
Sank, swam, go down with the ship
But use your freedom of choice

Ill say it again in the land of the free
Use your freedom of choice
Your freedom of choice

In ancient rome there was a poem
About a dog who found two bones
He picked at one
He licked the other
He went in circles
He dropped dead

Freedom of choice
Is what you got
Freedom of choice!

Then if you got it you dont want it
Seems to be the rule of thumb
Dont be tricked by what you see
You got two ways to go

Ill say it again in the land of the free
Use your freedom of choice
Freedom of choice

Freedom of choice
Is what you got
Freedom of choice!

In ancient rome
There was a poem
About a dog
Who found two bones
He picked at one
He licked the other
He went in circles
He dropped dead

Freedom of choice
Is what you got
Freedom from choice
Is what you want
(repeat)

[Hannah Bell]

45. "the pros" - "the amateurs" - "succeed" - at *what,* exactly?

to be numbered among "the pros," apparently.

most will "go down," because slots are very limited. on purpose.

who gives a shit for such a stupid set-up?

[Naturyl]

52. The tools give a shit.

Always remember, it takes a tool to do a job. And the more enthusiastically such tools embrace the idea that their servitude places them among the "winners" in life, the more the ownership class will profit from them, laughing all the way to the bank.

In case there is any confusion about the sense in which I am using the term "tool," consider that it takes a hammer to drive a nail, a ratchet to turn a nut, and a "go-getter team player" to make Daddy Warbucks and his stockholders richer.

[Sebastian Doyle]

7. I'm beginning to think Dr. Dre was right

"It's crazy to see people be what society wants them to be. But not me...."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2F2NC3FAjo

[Deja Q]

19. Society also rewards unethical and/or lewd behavior.

In my next life I'm going to be Madonna.

Interesting quote; though what does society want us to be? Especially these days?

[Naturyl]

21. Dre is a millionaire.

Sorry to be the cynic here, but I don't really see the revolutionary nature of selling a zillion records and moving into whatever gated McMansion he undoubtedly now occupies.

[Deja Q]

24. He worked within the system by denouncing it. Apart from that, what has he done?

Just talk and inciting others to do all the dirty work?

[leftstreet]

9. Because they feel they're entitled to the basic rights we all deserve?

We've been brainwashed into believing we deserve more when we (believe) we've 'worked harder' or 'shown more aptitude' than others.

The greatest scheme is convincing people they have no right to food, shelter, healthcare and security unless they 'work' for it.

[Naturyl]

18. Agreed 100%.

Thanks for being that rare DUer who understands what universal human rights really mean. ALL citizens should have access to adequate food, clothing, shelter, and medicine without ANY qualification - including employment.

This isn't a popular view (yet), but in time it will be understood as a basic moral issue.

[Deja Q]

20. Epiphany.

:yourock:


I still don't mind working, but most people I think don't mind using their abilities at all.

[marions ghost]

27. yes

I think I understand what you're saying. It always amazes me what Americans will put up with. People in this country have been sold the idea that (what other countries call) basic rights are luxury items. :thumbsdown:

[marions ghost]

17. Because that's not always what's valued

we are taught from childhood to work as hard as we can, achieve as much as we can. Our parents if they are dedicated, insist and ensure that we excel. Everyone is convinced that this will lead to rewards. It may or it may not.

We watch young people going to job fairs after they graduate where they're told they are "over-qualified." And nobody calls this a tragedy? At the same time we watch the guy down the street lie, cheat and steal his way into a fortune. We know that many business and government leaders make obscene profits because what they excel in is "working the system." We see successful people who's primary talent we realize, is for predation. We see those who know how to elbow others out of the way rise to the top. And we wonder, where did I go wrong, trying to be honest and hardworking? Some people are just not greedy or vicious enough to "compete" in a cut-throat society--they will be kicked to the curb. One of the biggest lies might be that you have to be really good at something to succeed. After all, look at our recently retired chief executive and Co. No better example.

I suppose this is what you're talking about. :shrug:

[Deja Q]

22. Certainly in the ballpark to be sure...

We're told to get educated and do this and do that. No problem by me. Except then they play the "overqualified" game, the "no experience despite having the education" game, et cetera... the tragedies can be overwhelming.

[Deja Q]

23. A "thank you" to all have responded.

Very eye-opening and much appreciated.

Thank you.

:grouphug:

[SheilaT]

29. I'm trying real hard to square this

with my observation that most office work is singularly undemanding and office workers have a lot of free time. Every time I get an office job I usually wind up crazed because I don't have enough to do.

[Deja Q]

30. Some people want more demanding work, and despite qualifications still don't

or can't.

Meh. It's all good.

:shrug:

[OhioChick]

31. When you find out the answer to that, please let me know. n/t

[Manifestor_of_Light]

32. Oh yes.

I could write a book.

So many bosses and teachers and co-workers and even acquaintances have done EVERYTHING THEY COULD to hold me back, stop me, fire me, not hire me, not give me a break, criticize me unfairly, etc, etc.


I never had a mentor. The Baby Boomers were so competitive. We were the best educated generation in history and there were millions and millions of us competing.

I feel like a failure, even though I know it was the rich and powerful that stopped me. I went to college for 12 years and I know that 10 years of that was a waste of time, in reference to getting a job. The Associate's vocational degree got me a job. The BA and the JD did NOTHING to ever get me a job -- and those two took ten years and were both quite difficult.

I have always been a perfectionist about my legal typing and my transcripts. I have always stopped the witness and asked them to spell words, and I have an extensive background in Greek and Latin and medical words. Most court reporters have no college other than their vocational degree, and they can't spell, can't type, and surely don't know anything about technical or medical testimony, or courtroom procedure.

It's sad to know that you have done everything humanly possible and some boss would always find something to nitpick, or make unreasonable demands. I was completely stressed out and burned out when I was 40 and definitely loathed it by the time I was 35. I started my career at age 22, and then finished the bachelor's degree and got the law degree at night while working full time. I have high blood pressure. I can't stand to be jolted awake by an alarm clock, because it will startle me. I can't tolerate the stress of getting up early, rushing around and hurrying to get to work at 8 o'clock on the dot, knowing that some snorting, huffing, hyperactive bastard will be watching the door like Cerberus and tearing into me if I'm five minutes late, like the fucking world is coming to an end. I can't deal with that anymore. If a boss yells at me I will cry, becaue I don't give a shit what they think, and then that makes them madder and they scream even more.

I haven't had a decent job since my first career died in 1996. I have never had a good job since them. I've worked suckward retail, and had horrible office temp jobs, and worked around complete idiots that I would never associate with voluntarily. If I did anything that required thought, or came up with a creative solution to a problem, I would be reprimanded, punished, and fired. I have applied for many jobs where I had far more experience than other applicants but I would be turned down for the most illogical and chickenshit of reasons.

I fought with the National Shorthand Reporters Association, because they would not let me put "B.A., J.D." after my name in the National Directory. Some asshole who had never gone to college had the nerve to tell me that "a bachelor's degree is no big deal, but a Juris Doctor, that's really something". I replied that they keep urging people to get a bachelor's degree, but they don't really mean it, because they are glorified secretaries, and are threatened by a truly educated person such as myself.

I also let my state certification lapse after I applied to the state board to use my 90 hours of law school and my 140 hours on my bachelor's degree as equivalent to their chickenshit continuing education credits. I figured I had 35 years of equivalent education. They just did not understand how a biology degree and a law degree would help a court reporter do a better job. There ARE NO degrees that would be better for a court reporter.

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :mad: :mad: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :eyes: :eyes: :grr: :banghead: :grr: :eyes: :mad:


I once applied for a court coordinator/court reporter's job in the next county. Two people applied. I had a court reporting degree, a BA in Biology, a Juris Doctor, and over 15 years of experience taking down trials of all sorts, from JP court to Federal, civil, criminal, family, probate, juvie, bankruptcy, you name it. The other person had an associate's court reporting degree and two years of deposition experience. The boss was the Presiding Judge over several counties.

Why didn't he hire me? He said that he didn't hire me because "I didn't know the people I would be working with." :wtf: Well, I lived 50 miles away in the next county. How in the hell did that matter? That's the kind of reason that is so ridiculous it cannot be counteracted.


The relevant question is "Who's your daddy?". It's not "Are you competent?". It's who you know and if you are not part of their social circle and their in crowd, you will never get a moment's consideration from them. I graduated from one highly regarded private undergraduate university (called "the best liberal arts school west of the Mississippi" by U.S. News and World Report) and one highly regarded private law school. Went to school with lots of rich kids. They wouldn't give me the steam off their piss, to use a British expression.

I called up guys I went to law school with that I thought were friends of mine. They were making over a million dollars a year, BEFORE their salary, as partners in law firms. When I asked them if they could give me a legal assistant job, they just couldn't be bothered. Just couldn't do anything, even though as partners they had hiring and firing authority. Wouldn't cost them a damn thing except a bit of decency.

Fucking vicious bastards.

I've had judges lie about me to a judges' meeting and tell them I was incompetent and not to be hired. This was after a female judge hit me in the head with a rolled up piece of paper when nobody was around after 5 o'clock and she decided to punish me for being allegedly "incompetent". She is a drunk and hates everyone who works for her. This is well known around the courthouse. However, the public does not know this. She was elected the Harris County District Attorney in November. She is too vicious to be let near a courthouse, as she cannot manage people.

Result: I'm 53, I have no job, no income, no health insurance, no pension, and can't handle the stress of being around idiots, and I have health problems that do not qualify me for disability. I'm too young for Social Security and have too many assets to get Medicare.

:shrug: :cry: :shrug: :cry:

I hate the rich bastards who run the world. I'm supposed to have the advantage of having a damn good education. They stomp on everyone's lives who they wish, and we peons suffer for it.

And what do I really want to do with the remainder of my life? Get paid to be an artist and musician, because that's what I truly love to do. Not legal work. The parental units told me I had to get a hard science degree (not psychology or sociology) because those were black arts, not real science. I pushed myself to go to law school, because I admired my father tremendously and he was an honest attorney.

[Deja Q]

41. Thank you for sharing.

:hug:

And I think you're right; you're not the first to say we should just do what we love. I just wish those areas actually paid living wages. :( But then, if having a Bachelor's degree or Master's degree also only cultivate $12/hr jobs these days...

[sweetpotato]

44. Boy can I relate to this

I have 2 bachelor's degrees - English/Art History and Psychology/Sociology. I also have a paralegal certification. I worked as a paralegal for 6 years before suffering a nervous breakdown - at least they used to call them that. I can't walk into a lawyer's office without experiencing a panic attack anymore. It was that bad.

I worked for an alcoholic who would usually throw tantrums and actually throw things at her secretary and me. She would leave abusive notes and expect us to kiss her behind 24/7. I had to throw away my answering machine at home because she would call at all hours and leave abusive phone messages. It was horrible.

I had to take a couple of years off from working - I was lucky I could afford it at the time.

Lawyers are the some of the worst to work for as staff. They really look down on everyone.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

34. I got kicked in the fill-in-the-blank.

:mad:

[Skittles]

35. I hear you, Deja Q

it's like working hard means nothing anymore

[Manifestor_of_Light]

36. And achieving goals won't make you happy.

At least not earning diplomas.

[misanthrope]

37. Almost five decades of life have taught me it's all a crapshoot...

...Success as society defines it isn't determined by capability, honesty, earnestness, diligence or any of that stuff. If anything, life seems to reward those who are the most cutthroat, unethical and dishonest.

Want to get screwed? Be the best person you can be. Want to "get ahead" or "make your mark?" Be an asshole, someone who doesn't hesitate to use others. Sure there are exceptions but the norm is what I just described.

If you emerge from the right womb, there will always be someone there to pick you up, dust you off and keep you from hitting the skids. If you run in the right circles, things are far easier.

This nation and civilization was built by countless, nameless folks who toiled as hard or harder than those who received the wealth, glory and place in history. Just like the railroad barons who reaped the fortunes while the poor bastards who were worked to death driving spikes are the ones who really made it happen.

For most of us, all we know is that life is going to kick us in the teeth over and over until we die. It sucks, but that's the reality we've made for ourselves.

[lonestarnot]

43. Made for ourselves?

Disagree.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

49. We haven't made it for ourselves.

The people who own everything have made it that way.
The world is run by vicious, angry, psychopathic white men. Anybody who is a boss is a rageaholic and uses it to keep the serfs in line.

It's class war, but is just now being recognized. It started with the mass shootings in the Reagan Era. People are broken and suffering, and society suffers with crime, mental illness, and displaced people.

The rich don't care. They will hide in their gated communities and count their money.

[Naturyl]

50. Misanthrope has a point.

Certainly the rich and the ruling classes have created this reality for us - but we have ALLOWED them do so. We vastly outnumber them, but in most cases we choose to do nothing substantial to change our conditions because we are too busy running after the various carrots and shiny toys held out by those running the show.

So yes, it IS somewhat our own fault, and until we recognize this and stop chasing those carrots, we can expect to be led around the same pointless racetrack time and time again.

[MedleyMisty]

38. General response to the thread thus far

Why let yourself be "told" something? Why care about what "society" wants you to be? And I mean that seriously - it's something about humans that I've been trying to figure out for a while now and I can't find anything within myself that would enable me to relate to and empathize with that.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

39. That's how I was indoctrinated.

It took me decades to figure out that doing things for the approval of teachers and bosses was not going to make me happy. I was told that if I got a good education I would be able to support myself and pay the bills.

I wasn't told that I should do what makes me happy. I was told that life was grim and I would have to work hard all my life. I was born in the 1950s. My parents were young people in the Depression and my grandparents were adults during the depression. They had a very grim attitude about life in general. I was encouraged to study music and art but not to do them for a living; they "weren't practical" like typing.
:grr:

Too bad we are not all encouraged to do what we enjoy doing, as a vocation. Too bad society doesn't support so many vocations that would help our society greatly -- artist, musician, playwright, choreographer, sociologist, researcher, scientist, etc.

[Deja Q]

42. What can we do to make those vocations, and others, more "profitable"?

Or at least accepted, or fulfilling as a viable society?

[Deja Q]

40. If society took care of its own, then I think more would care...

[wroberts189]

46. easy question ..REPUBLICANS nt

[Fumesucker]

47. LIfe According To Dilbert..

All you need to know about the world of work you can learn by reading Scott Adams' "Dilbert".

Scott writes his cartoon based on the testimony of serfs, errr.. workers who relate their stories of being in the trenches to him.

Dilbert's world is one Kafka would instantly feel right at home in, and it is reality for entirely too many of us.

[Greyhound]

48. This is indisputable, but I don't think it was always so, at least not to the extent

it is today.

As a young pup, coming up in the business world, I can only think of a very few total incompetents that gained any success. Now, I'm shocked when I run into anyone that knows what they're doing anywhere. I was taught "business" by guys that, for the most part, were what we would call uneducated, bordering on anti-social, and utterly unconcerned with social status/heritage. They were all very successful at what they did, successful being defined as knowing their businesses, producing superior products/results, and making a lot of money.

(possibly unrelated, but none of them lived anywhere nearly as opulently as their bank accounts would allow)

It seems that the major criteria for "making it" has become simply being willing to sink lower than others, shift blame to others, and be elsewhere when the fecal matter hits the air circulation device.

[FatDave]

54. The best thing you can do to get ahead:

Be born into a wealthy, well-connected family. If you can't manage do this one simple thing, than don't bitch that it's hard to compete with those who get the advantages of having done so.