We can create a new form of Currency. One based on an Hour of Labor equalling a unit of exchange.

[trthnd4jstc]

I know a professor emeritus of SIUE, Bob Blain: http://www.siue.edu/~rblain/index.htm Here are two of his books for sail: http://www.flipkart.com/bob-blain/

Here is another site, called Time Banking: http://www.timebanks.org/

[babylonsister]

1. Bartering? Not so new. nt

[trthnd4jstc]

9. Dear lady, why so flip, does the idea have to be new. What we have now does not work.

[babylonsister]

11. Sorry, wasn't trying to be flip. But what you described is bartering, and

it has a long and wonderful history, helping all the people involved.

I didn't mean for that to sound derogatory.

[anigbrowl]

14. Well, there's a reason it has been around so long and not taken off.

That reason being that the concept is of limited scope. It has benefits in certain contexts but it's hard to equalize areas of different expertise and equipment (it's a lot harder and more expensive to become a dentist than a painter, for example), and it also breaks down when you want to exchanges services for physical goods. Finally, the marginal utility of a given service to a given person varies considerably, so matching buyers and sellers can only take place where you have a broad diversity of supply and demand, such as a city - but cities tend to already have both high-functioning economic systems and higher costs of living related to the consumption or lease of real property.

I got quite interested in this concept back in the late 80s, but it just hasn't really taken off anywhere. The closest philosophical equivalent (which uses no mechanism of exchange at all) is open source product development, where intellectual property is regarded as a common resource.

[Muttocracy]

2. The aptly named "Ithaca Hours"

http://www.ithacahours.org/

[Posteritatis]

3. Which, of course, assumes that all hours of labour are perfectly equivalent

Which is entirely untrue.

[Muttocracy]

5. I have to agree with that.

As a college kid I always had jobs on campus where I was busy from the moment I walked in the door until I left (mostly in science labs). I never had one of those do-your-homework-while-waiting-for-something-to-come-up jobs.

[trthnd4jstc]

8. An hour of labor should have some base value. Not all hours are the same, but all labor is valuable

We need a new currency, since we are bankrupt. I believe that Hour Money, Ithica Dollar, Santa Cruz Barter Network, Whatever, it is one means of creating greater economic activity. We do have labor.

How does one value, say an electrical engineer compared to an electrical contractor, or an electrician. What is a just price. I believe that a fair price is connected to the amount of value that one has created for the client, which includes the costs of overhead, labor, materials, and profit. Bob Blain had the thought that an Hour Dollar could be equal to $45.00 to $55.00 per hour.

I do not know what the base hour should be valuated at. I would say something at least worth $20.00. The thing is that the Federal Government throught the House of Representatives has the complete right to print money, and yet they delegate it over the the foxes, I mean bankers. The Bankers have done a horrible job, through there creating of triple B bonds, stock default swaps, and what-not. The expansion of the money supply is a risk to our Nation. 2 Representatives, Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinech can speak extensively about it.

Does what we have now for currency work for us as a society?

We cannot go to Gold or Silver, but we can come from our Labor. We all have Labor to create, and the Government can pay us for each hour of labor we work.

[greenkal]

25. "not all hours are the same" is racist

So a black man's hours aren't the same as some rich white guy that used family connections to get into medical school?

A set fee per hour of labor is the only fair way to do things.

[Cid_B]

26. Yet again,

I have lost all ability to determine who is being serious around here. Does this need a sarcasm tag?

[vadawg]

27. More likely it needs a crazy loon flag

[greenkal]

29. I wouldn't go as far as calling trthnd4jstc a crazy loon

He after all does describe how the current system unfairly works.

[Cid_B]

33. I was referring to your post..

in case it wasn't clear.

[tangent90]

43. It was perfectly clear...to anyone with a brain.

:hi:

[tangent90]

42. We're referring to your post.

:eyes:

[trthnd4jstc]

36. That is were I am coming from, but those who claim that their hours are worth more because of their

training, investment of money, and risks they take, do make some valid points. I am a master electrician. My education so far has cost about $60,000 and I have spent more than 11 years time training. I am certain you can see peoples criticism of an hour of labor being worth more for some peoples labor, and not so much for others. This has been something I have been chewing on for about 3 years.

[tangent90]

41. You probably shouldn't smoke that shit.

...

[SoCalDem]

48. I started a babysitting co-op back in 1978, and we had a differential

built in for "night-time" swaps.

For each night-time hour you babysat, you got one & a half daytime hours.. I banked nighttime hours and spent daytime hours:)

Had all the free time I needed, and never spent a cent:)

[Kellen RN]

62. I'm sorry but that's utter bullshit.

I'm a registered nurse who works my ass off to save lives. Literally. I work in a pediatric ICU where the stresses of my job should warrant me a little bit more compensation than say a gas station attendant or even a nurses aide that may work along side me. Why should I go through the very difficult education requirements to obtain my degree and liscensure when I could make just as much money selling fast food. Why should I deal with the emotional stress of seeing children plagued by cancer, heart defects, and neurological defects? Having to deal with life and death on a weekly basis is equal to mowing lawns to you?

Nevermind. You're totally right. My work is equal to that of a McJob.

Might I add that most of the people I work with who sign M.D. after their names didn't get into medical school because they were white and had connections. They got into medical school because they worked their asses off. Furthermore I live in the right wing white capital of the world, Oklahoma, and probably half of the doctors I work with are not white. And a very large portion of them come from blue collar families.

[jmowreader]

69. Oh Christ...

What about a black man who went to medical school? Is his hour worth the same as a white man who works in a store's hour?

An hour of rare skills is worth more than an hour of common ones no matter what the currency is.

[rucky]

13. This would certainly give ditch-diggers the edge over corporate middle-management. n/t

[Telly Savalas]

28. So we can create a currency which allows for different types of labor

being worth different amounts.

I propose we call it the "dollar".

[tangent90]

44. Or skip that and just call it the 'yuan'

:shrug:

[Greyhound]

37. Why is this untrue? Your assertion is subjective.

When my house is burning down, from my immediate perspective the fireman's time is far more valuable than a teacher's, but when my kids are in school, the teacher's time is of more worth than the fireman's. When I'm hungry, a farmer's hour is more valuable than a doctor's, but when I'm sick that changes as well.

The point is that the value of the hours is equally valuable to the persons expending the hours.

[GiveMeFreedom]

56. Not being disrespectfull

But do they money changers at AIG deserve what the get for their labor? I think that is the problem. Get rid of the money changers and their investment scams. just my 2 cents.

[leftstreet]

4. I'm tired of 'selling' my 'labor' for basic human rights

Food, shelter, healthcare, security.

(Mebbe I'd still do it for some new dvds or something.)

Anyway, what about seniors, the disabled, and the like? What would their 'currency' be?

:shrug:

[1]

6. gots to sell your labor for something, buddy...

as food, shelter, healthcare and security are not "basic human rights."

the aforementioned are what you purchase by selling your labor.

see?

[leftstreet]

7. Nope. They're basic human rights

One day we'll all agree.

But in the meantime, what about those pesky seniors and disabled people and such? Do we let 'em starve or what?

:shrug:

[1]

17. but that's not how it works, in the real world...

good luck with that "basic human rights" idea. but for the vast majority of us... we gots to work to eat.

[leftstreet]

18. What 'real world' are you talking about?

If you mean the USofFuckYeah! maybe so.

But there's a big world out there.

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

[1]

20. ummm... the one that everyone but you seems to live in...

but that's cool. keep fighting for those basic human right. i'm down with that.

peace, brother!

[leftstreet]

22. I've labored over 10 minutes responding to you. You owe me $5 bucks

lol 'peace brother' indeed

;)

[1]

24. ha! ok... stop by between 9 and 5 any workday and i will pay you...

you funny.

but stop responding to me. i am not authorized by the powers that be to pay you any more than $5.

[GiveMeFreedom]

58. DUzy Award? LOL

:rofl:

[sufrommich]

46. So where in the other "real world" is this happening? nt

[Naturyl]

51. And is that a good thing?

Is that a state of affairs to be perpetuated, or to be challenged?

[Naturyl]

50. Hear hear.

No sarcasm intended - I fully agree with you that the basic necessities of life should NOT be linked to employment and I've been advocating that for years.

So far, the response has been pretty much what you got in this thread - but you're absolutely right that someday all progressives will agree on this - just like all progressives now agree that chattel slavery is wrong.

It's simply a matter of expanding our definition of slavery to include its less recognized forms. Kudos to you on advocating for genuine human rights. Even in a left-leaning community like DU, the idea is well ahead of its time and will be met with widespread incomprehension, derision, and abuse. You are to be commended for speaking up anyway.

[Cid_B]

61. Like having a job?

:eyes:

[Naturyl]

64. Want to explain your question?

[Cid_B]

68. This bit right here...

"I fully agree with you that the basic necessities of life should NOT be linked to employment"

What the hell does that mean? It seems like if people decide that food shelter and clothing are magically deemed to be rights that someway somehow they will just magically appear. It doesn't work that way. You are employed so you can get those things. If you are not employed you don't get them or you live off the charity of those who are employed.

There I just waved my wand and everything will be delivered shortly. You can choose to work or not. Do whatever makes you comfortable.

*There may be some delivery delays*

[Naturyl]

70. It means just what it says.

"The basic necessities of life should NOT be linked to employment"

It doesn't take "magic wands" or any sort of wishful thinking to make this happen. All that needs to be done is to pass a guaranteed minimum income. This isn't a crazy or outlandish idea - it was being seriously considered by Nixon's administration (of all people). Milton Friedman (again, of all people) favored it. Numerous nations around the world are giving it serious consideration, and some are working toward implementing it.

The prevailing (GOP-produced) American attitude that such a system is a magical fantasy is far from the truth. In reality, the idea of divorcing subsistence from employment has been (and will continue to be) discussed with increasing interest. Hell, a place as red as Sarah Palin's home state has partially implemented such a program. Google "Alaska Permanent Fund."

Waving this away with derisive comments about "magic" and fantasy won't work. Some of us are committed to liberate you from dependence on a job - kicking and screaming if necessary. :)

[Deja Q]

34. That makes sense, but what happens when nobody wants our labor?

Or devalues it. because we're not human beings but in fact walking costs?

Or if you go to certain festivals, we're walking wallets.

[Naturyl]

52. Exactly. Labor-centric schemes promote a culture of *dependence*

True "independence" (as opposed to independence in name only) comes from the provision of a guaranteed minimum income which ensures uninterrupted access to the necessities of life, without qualification.

I've always found incomprehensible the idea that people who rely on selling their labor for a living are somehow "independent." Oh really? Then why do such "independent, self-reliant" people live in perpetual fear of losing their JOBS? It doesn't sound too "independent" to me when one's survival is linked to receiving a paycheck which can be taken away at any time, even arbitrarily. If that's "independence," then war is peace, slavery is freedom, and ignorance is strength. How do people fail to notice this blatantly obvious contradiction rivaling anything in Orwell's Newspeak?

Real independence and security come from recognizing the basic necessities of life as universal human rights. We need to divorce labor from survival, not devise new ways to link it more closely.

[1]

55. that would be so fun. just explain how do we pay for all of these "universal human rights"...

the money must come from somewhere, and i'm sure you have an answer.

do tell?

[leftstreet]

59. Funding can come from many sources

Some links to get you started.
:hi:

http://www.usbig.net/papers.html

The basic income guarantee (BIG) is a government insured guarantee that no citizen's income will fall below some minimal level for any reason. All citizens would receive a BIG without means test or work requirement. BIG is an efficient and effective solution to poverty that preserves individual autonomy and work incentives while simplifying government social policy. Some researchers estimate that a small BIG, sufficient to cut the poverty rate in half could be financed without an increase in taxes by redirecting funds from spending programs and tax deductions aimed at maintaining incomes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaranteed_minimum_income#Advocates

Guaranteed minimum income (GMI) is a proposed system of social welfare provision that guarantees that all citizens or families have an income sufficient to live on, provided they meet certain conditions. Eligibility is typically determined by citizenship, a means test and either availability for the labour market or a willingness to perform community services. The primary goal of a guaranteed minimum income is to combat poverty. If citizenship is the only requirement, the system turns into a basic income guarantee.

Many different sources of funding have been suggested for a guaranteed minimum income:

Income taxes
Sales taxes
Capital gains taxes
Inheritance taxes
Wealth taxes, e.g. property tax
Luxury taxes
Elimination of current income support programs and tax deductions
Repayment of the grant at death or retirement
Land and natural-resource taxes
Pollution taxes
Fees from government created monopolies (such as the broadcast spectrum and utilities)
Collective resource ownership
Universal stock ownership
A National Mutual Fund
Money creation or seignorage
Tariffs, the lottery, or sin taxes
Technology Taxes
Tobin Tax

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Income_Earth_Network

The Basic Income Earth Network (BIEN; until 2004 Basic Income European Network) is a network of academics and activists interested in the idea of a universal basic income, i.e. a guaranteed minimum income based solely on citizenship and not on work requirement or charity. It serves as a link between individuals and groups committed to or interested in basic income, and fosters informed discussion on this topic throughout the world. Their website defines a basic income as "an income unconditionally granted to all on an individual basis, without means test or work requirement."

Formed in 1986, BIEN held its first international conference in Louvain-la-Neuve in September of that year. It expanded its scope from Europe to the Earth in 2004. From 1988 they published a newsletter three times per year; however, this has now been discontinued and replaced by an electronic newsletter distributed every second month. BIEN's secretaries have been Walter Van Trier (1986-1994), Philippe Van Parijs (1994-2004), and David Casassas (2004- ).

[1]

60. thank you. i personally don't think this is in anyway possible, but fight the good fight...

and good luck.

[Naturyl]

65. It's not possible only because people *believe* it's notpossible.

There is no economic obstacle.

[leftstreet]

57. I'd like to see us all debating Guaranteed Minimum Income v Basic Income

A spirited discussion on how best to 'divorce labor from survival.'

Should there be a means test? Would mere citizenship suffice?

Now those would be some interesting threads!
(I can dream.)

:hi:

[Naturyl]

66. Been there, done that.

I've participated in several such threads, but a new one can never hurt if you're feeling adventurous.

Just be ready to face some indoctrinated abuse from certain quarters. Be prepared to discover just how fast right-wing talking points can appear at DU when you suggest that employment should not be linked to survival.

[XemaSab]

10. What constitutes labor?

If I spend an hour of editing, is that equal to an hour of yard work, or an hour of bird surveying, or an hour of knocking down nests, or an hour of seed collecting, or an hour of wetland delineation, or an hour of writing a document? :shrug:

[Deja Q]

35. Or whining and bitchin' in front of a microphone for radio listeners to fawn over.

I love it how right wing lawyers that hate musicians listen to Rush Limberger every day and by their own twisted illogic think Rushie is actually "working".

[anaxarchos]

12. 'Sgotta be a social average...

Labor abstracted away from its concrete type, its specific skill level, and at the average intensity.

But wait... money is that already. Ain't about the medium of circulation - it's about the division of the product of labor. All of these "money theories" count as so many misunderstandings.

[Lost in CT]

15. Easily one of the worst Ideas ever... talk about lowering wages and

lowering the bar for everyone.

[CAG]

16. so I'll just sit here and pick lint from my navel for an hour while Dr. Smith

performs neurosurgery on someone for an hour..... yeah, we should both get the same thing..... not.

[Greyhound]

39. If you can find a market for navel lint, why not? n/t

[lonestarnot]

19. A sailing book? Woohoo. Entertaining!

:D

[MercutioATC]

21. As long as they're willing to credit me at my current rate (with shift differential)

that's fine with me.

...I'll also need time and a half for anything over 8 hours a day and double time on federal holidays...

[TreasonousBastard]

23. No we can't-- we have currency because...

thousands of years ago the barter system just ran out of steam, so currency was invented.

In all that time, nothing has ever been invented, or rediscovered, that works better than coin of the realm.

[k8conant]

30. How about the Life Depletion Allowance?

I used to work at IRS. Industries and corporations were getting Oil Depletion Allowances, based on the principle that the oil they were selling would eventually be gone. I asked then and ask again now why my so-called salary or wages weren't subject to a Life Depletion Allowance because the time I was "selling" would eventually be gone.

[Dreamer Tatum]

31. So "inflation" then means that you have to work until you collapse

to buy a loaf of bread.

This is a silly idea.

[pnwmom]

32. No thanks.

Some people are much better workers than others.

[Greyhound]

45. The current system doesn't account for that either. One advantage this type of thing would have is

a re-pricing of things and services that more accurately reflects their true costs.
:kick:

[pnwmom]

47. Under the current system, I could pay an employee who was more productive

a higher salary. Under your scheme, I couldn't.

[Greyhound]

53. Yes you could, but in practice that rarely happens and even when it does,

you as the owner will be put under pressure by your competitors to cease.

We can see this all around us in every business today.

BTW, this is not my "scheme".

[Selatius]

63. The problem is most employers, especially bigger ones, don't care.

They serve the shareholders. Sure, an employee could brown-nose his way to a higher hourly wage, but at the same time, given the trends over the last several decades, his pay has likely not kept up with inflation, yet corporate profits have soared at the same time. In essence, the employee is getting a pay cut, not a pay raise. Some meritocracy, huh?

[Greyhound]

38. I think this concept has merit and we're going to have to reinvent American currency

anyway, as the USD is rapidly becoming worthless.
:kick: & R

[TexasObserver]

40. If an hour of every kind of labor was worth the same, they'd all charge the same.

Your core assumption is faulty. It assumes an hour of having tables bussed is worth the same as an hour of having an auto repaired, or a contract written, or cancerous tissue removed.

There are different charges for different kinds of work for a reason, and that reason is each type of work is worth a different value to society.

[ddeclue]

49. I'm sorry but I don't think my labor is equal in value to some unskilled worker's labor

working at the McArches...

I went to a lot of time and trouble and study and money to earn an engineering degree and learn a valuable useful skill so I disagree that everybody's labor is equal in value regardless of what they do - this is communism and I'm not interested in playing.

Doug D.

[iamthebandfanman]

54. i just hope we find a way to clone hotdogs!

2 hot dogs could then roughly equal a nickle.

[dysfunctional press]

67. based on whose labour?

an hour spent shoveling concrete is A LOT more taxing than an hour spent sitting at a desk.