Instead of testing students to decide teachers' pay, what about testing the teachers themselves?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

Tests on the area of knowledge they're supposed to teach. Tests about the teaching job itself (knowledge of policies, "what would you do if" questions etc.) Make them periodic, like every four years or so.

That'd leave the differences in student background completely out of the equation. Otherwise, I agree it'll unduly punish teachers of poor neighborhoods.

What you say?

[FiveGoodMen]

1. You'd need to test how well they can pass their knowledge on to others.

Many smart people are terrible at explaining what they mean to people outside of their own fields.

[valerief]

2. Then that should be the teachers' test. Have them teach Republicans basic

stuff and see if it takes.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

4. Geez, you want to see every teacher fired?

No way in hell anybody will pass THAT test.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

3. How to test that accurately?

[FiveGoodMen]

5. I don't think you can.

Which is why I think that merit pay for teachers is a bad idea that only sounds good.

[LiberalFighter]

26. I just realize that teachers are assigned the classes they will teach by the admin.

How will teachers that have fewer classes assigned to them because they coach be fairly evaluated?

How about teachers that only have phys ed, art, music or other classes that do not get tested?

Administrators/principals determine who fills what slots in the schools the last I knew.

[JerseygirlCT]

19. There's the trick

And the most important skill, perhaps.

I know things, but one of them is that I'd make a sucky teacher.

[ColbertWatcher]

6. I say test the people who want to implement these "solutions."

Test them for conflicts of interest, test them for authoritarian/fascist/sociopath/GOP traits.

Then give their ideas consideration in proportion to the amount of time they've spent in the field they want to police.

[msongs]

7. umm teachers already take that test before they get credentials nt

[RebelOne]

9. You are right. My daughter is a teacher of English

and reading in a charter school in South Florida. You would not believe all the testing she has go through.

[knitter4democracy]

15. At least two, usually quite a few more. nt.

[dysfunctional press]

18. then some of those tests need to be made more stringent...

or credentials need to be updated and re-tested for periodically.

[patrice]

8. Only if we test the Students, the Parents, the Administrators, and the Board too.

Appropriately, to their area of expertise of course, with specially weighted questions representing any inter-area equivalences (i.e. what they know about each other)!

[Hangingon]

11. Unfortunately, I don't see how you can test the parents.

The school board is presumably elected. That is their test.

[patrice]

17. too bad, huh?!!

[dysfunctional press]

20. the real test of the parents is how well the kids do...

they have much more of an effect on the child's outcome than any of the teachers.

[LiberalFighter]

27. There you go.... The School Boards should meet certain qualifications before

they are eligible to be on a School Board.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. They did that in a thing called "college."

They all passed.

[lib2DaBone]

12. Hey..how 'bout testing the School Board Administrators?

..Test them for drugs, alcohol and anti-depressants. Just because they make 3 figures a year and then some.. that is no reason to let them operate w/o a drug test?

After all, we test custodians, librarians, bus drivers, cafeteria workers.. why not the big people at the top?

[Naturyl]

13. Hoo-boy, you're asking for a can of worms there.

Based on my interactions with self-proclaimed teachers online, the test had better be rather forgiving...

Teachers can be wonderful people, but I've been appalled more than once at some of the spelling, grammar, reasoning skills, and lack of knowledge I've seen.

It should be noted, however, that I would not limit this criticism to teachers, by any means. Modern college graduates in general have consistently and dramatically failed to impress me.

[Sancho]

14. Oh goodness! Teachers have taken content tests for decades!

In the 70's I took a biology test required for teachers to teach science...and since then I've taken tests a dozen other times for other states and subjects. Almost every state has a set of teacher certification tests, and most are specifically on the subject you have to teach AND another test of how to teach AND observations for probationary periods up to two years before getting an initial certificate. Most states require additional graduates courses (like two every five years) in your subject to keep a certificate. There are some differences, but most teaching certificates also require a minimum number of courses in a subject major in addition to the test; so most of those teachers have also taken all the exams in all those courses.

Some states allow teachers who are not fully certified to have contracts and those folks don't have majors or may not have passed tests; which is a problem. On the other hand, lots of people PASS the test in reading, writing, and 'rithematic and are terrible teachers. It certainly takes a knowledge of a subject to teach it; but tests have been used for years and there is still no magic bullet predicting if that person is going to be a good teacher.

It's much harder to learn HOW to teach than it is to learn the subject that you intend to teach.

[last_texas_dem]

16. They already do that (although not to determine pay)

At least in Texas (and I doubt we're at the forefront of anything, education-wise) teachers are required to pass tests in both the subject area they plan to teach and in pedagogy before becoming certified to teach, in addition to the requisite college courses...

As for using these scores to determine pay, the problem that I would have with doing that is that scores on these tests do not always correlate with one's effectiveness as a teacher. Of course, judging one's effectiveness is a subjective practice itself, involving a variety of factors that should be taken into consideration, which is why I oppose any form of tying a teacher's pay to his/her students' performance.

[EFerrari]

21. It doesn't address the ability to acutally teach but otherwise.

:)

[tonysam]

22. For Cryin' Out Loud, Teachers HAVE to Undergo Tests to be Certified.

And by the way, if you go to a different state to teach, you have to take THEIR tests as well, and the money comes out of YOUR pocket.

Those are INTERVIEW questions, by the way, and questions like those are asked all the time.

Besides, if you are an elementary teacher and a generalist, you don't need to be an "expert" on subject matter. In truth in K-12 teaching, learning how to communicate with students and having classroom management skills are FAR more important than having a doctorate in a subject area.

[Berry Cool]

23. How about having a bachelor's?

If you're a science teacher, isn't it good to have a BS in science? If you're teaching English, a BA or BS in English? Etc.?

How can you teach a subject if you don't know the subject?

It makes sense to me to learn the subject first, then learn the pedagogy on top of that. I've heard there are too many teachers out there who know all about HOW to teach, but they have no subject knowledge to back up what they're supposed to be teaching.

[erinlough]

24. I can only speak for my state

we need to be highly qualified to teach in any area. That involves taking the specific test for the level and the area you teach and having at least a BA with a major in that area. You can't teach if you are not highly qualified. I believe that is in NCLB as well.

[Sgent]

25. Other professionals (physicians) already do this

Most doctors have to undergo board recertification every 7 years (and its being phased in for all board certified physicians -- which is essentially all of them). The board recertification consists of a knowledge exam, in depth review of patient outcomes, and chart reviews.

[roody]

28. I have passed the MSAT, BCLAD, CBEST, Teaching Reading,

GRE, and a few classes. I'm a teacher. I like to pass tests. That doesn't mean I can teach well which includes managing children. For managing kids, I had to take a Fred Jones class not offered at college to learn.