What "is our children learning" by throwing spaghetti on a teacher as a reward.

[madfloridian]

This is their reward for accomplishment. Makes one wonder what happened to dignity and respectful attitudes. Couldn't they celebrate their accomplishment in some other way?



Spaghetti for Heart

Photo Credit: CINDY SKOP | The Ledger

After getting a face full of cold spaghetti McKeel Elementary Academy physical education teacher Dax Gingras closes his eyes and prepares for the cheese topping being sprinkled on by fifth graders Hannah Green and Trynelle Maner in Lakeland, Florida. For the last four years Gringas has challanged all the students at the school to raise money for the American Heart Association through the Jump Rope for Heart challenge. The student body raised $3800 this year and the 75 students who raised $25 or more were the lucky ones to get to cover him in the traditional italian meal. Gingras suffered a mild heart attack at the beginning of the school year. Now, at age 33, he realizes the importance of heart health and education.

This is like the continuing antics done by principals and school officials all over Florida to celebrate stuff. Our assistant principal once was made to be part of a dunking pool in 40 degree weather to celebrate something or other...maybe FCAT. I know two principals in the county who had their heads shaved in front of students to celebrate.

One principal even spent four nights on the school roof to celebrate something

Note that the students are not paying much attention as they walk by.

It's a bird. it's a plane. it's principal mccellan!

LAKELAND - Kathleen High School Principal Cecil McClellan could turn this into a lesson about commitment. McClellan has braved the past four nights on the roof of Kathleen to settle a bet he made to encourage students to meet FCAT goals. He said he picked the late October week to camp on the roof because it promised cool, comfortable nights with few mosquitoes. So far, McClellan has worried more about frostbite than mosquitoes.

"I've froze," McClellan said Wednesday from the roof. "But if you tell your kids you're going to do something you have to honor your word."

On Wednesday, temperatures dropped to 38 degrees, breaking the record for the coldest October day on record - 42 degrees in 1989, according to the National Weather Service.

There's just something odd about this. We were expected to do well in school, and compliments were considered icing on the cake. There was an assumption that there would be a dignified and respectful relation between students and teachers.

Times have changed, and I guess anything goes to get them to perform as they should.

[No.23]

1. Having had volunteered my time in two elementary schools...

I can say this from my personal experience:

I saw very little evidence of respectful conduct being a specifically identified learning objective.

Obedience and compliance certainly remain part of the curriculum.

But respectful conduct is another another story.

[SmileyRose]

2. We got our revenge at the Catholic church festivals

The area of Michigan I grew up had a lot of Catholic churches and in the spring and summer many of them have festivals to raise money for the church, their school, or for charity or all 3 in some cases. A good half of our public school teachers were Catholic and they tended to volunteer for various minor humiliations in the name of raising charity money. One teacher often disliked for his strict classroom discipline consistently volunteered for what we called the mudgun game. They had the teacher dodging back and forth trying to avoid getting hit with the mud gun. It was this enormous watergun type thing on a swivel that shot a thin slurry of mud a good 50 feet or more. I tell you, more kids spent more allowance trying to cover him in mud than you could ever imagine.

[madfloridian]

3. Must just be me.

Getting too old to accept this kind of stuff.

It was starting in bigtime when I retired...it's like it takes away the dignity teachers should have.

[SmileyRose]

7. When I was a kid the teacher with the most respect from the students

were the one's who were accessible, emotionally speaking. That very strict teacher I talked about was highly respected though sometimes disliked. He was a big man, but he didn't take any crap in class and you know he meant business. But thanks to interactions with him outside the classroom he was also an accessible human being who clearly cared about us and the world.

If today's kids learn that authority figures are mere humans who actually care about the kids and worthy of appropriate respect (not blind obedience) by throwing spaghetti on them then it's all good IMHO. I don't understand it either but whatever works.

[madfloridian]

31. A teacher can be "emotionally accessible" without stuff like this.

That's just not needed.

[SmileyRose]

86. There are hundreds of ways not just one.

I appreciate the fact that this kind of thing is not your style. If this isn't yours that's OK. It's obviously someone else's way and if it works for them and no one is getting hurt then I honestly don't see the problem.

They raised a lot of money for the price of a few pounds of spaghetti. The kids and teachers both were obviously having a good time. I don't see anything in the story where kids became disobedient and out of hand. Or that the teachers involved had behavior problems from students afterwards. I am just really struggling to see it as a bad thing.

[rucognizant]

188. Exactly!

There needs to be an adult role model somewhere there for the kids!
It's just more propaganda to shape the unwashed masses in the way we're supposed to behave ( total lack of dignity)after all we're ONLY PEONS! Here at the pleasure of the elite!
I hate the blackberry commercial on CNN that has all those (alleged) adults looking for one kid to put him in detention. If that's all a blackberry is good for, then throw them all in the harbor.
On the heels of that awful story from PA where people were collecting money to put undeserving kids in juvenile detention it's just plain SICK! Gitmo mentality!
And the Halls cough drop commercial with the big military guy swooping down on that poor woman sneezing and stocking the cooler!
Don't waste your energy on the AIG bailout rage,,,,,,..RAGE AGAINST THE PROPAGANDA!

[NewMoonTherian]

158. That's how things were at my school.

Seems it was usually the science teachers who took the most unconventional approaches, engaged the kids and got them thinking, and showed them respect(not deference, just the regard due another human). They were also the ones who got the best results.

Outside a handful whom I can still name, the bulk of high school teachers were self-important, out of touch, and didn't seem to want to be there. That's what you can expect in a public school these days, and that's why the United States is now lagging in education.</rant>

[MattBaggins]

20. You know what would fix this?

Privatize schools.

[madfloridian]

35. I believe that is a charter school.

Or a magnet or choice...charter I think.

I think you are teasing...:evilgrin:

[MattBaggins]

37. Teasing... Baiting

Depends on how you look at it.

[madfloridian]

39. Heh Heh...yep I looked it up. It's a charter school.

.

[Iris]

185. well, then, they must know what they are doing

right? right?

[Wetzelbill]

96. dude if you start yelling at clouds

and chasing kids off your lawn, that's when you're going too far. Stay away from the light! :)

[imdjh]

119. I've always thought this was a bit odd

I think the first time I saw it was when a Florida principal allowed himself to be pied or something. I couldn't see how it could possibly make sense, and it still doesn't make sense to me.

Where is it written that today's kids can't be educated with the same degree of discipline that I was subject to when I was a kid?
And what does "playful disrespect" actually teach? (we won't get into wasting food in a school where half the kids are on free lunch)

This isn't a good idea. At the Pinellas School Board workshop recently, one of the board members decided that it was time to call out "the elephant in the room. " That elephant was the belligerance of students toward teachers and authority figures. This is not some old song of every generation, like not liking your kids' music- this is a level of juvenile delinquency which was unknown until a few years ago. They don't know what to do about it.

[wolfgangmo]

139. It's a logical outcome of a loss of faith in the future.

Frankly these kids are convinced that their future is dead in America. Most of them know that they will not do as well as their parents. I know I'm not and I'm 40 fer cryin' out loud.

When one message being told to kids is that the key to having a good life is having a education and yet they see that education is clearly not funded so what should they think? When the metamessage being told today is that kids today will NOT do as well as their parents, then they have given up hope in a way.

I am not saying that they are blameless. THey are not. Many of them are turning to gangs to try to get the good life for as long as they live. It is crappy.

I blame Bush. Not really, but yah, I do. And Reagan.

[madfloridian]

146. Good post.

If you read this thread carefully, you will see that belligerence you mention manifested quite clearly.

Some appear not to think that a teacher can retain dignity, respect and still do a good job.

It is the result of the badmouthing since the 80s. Stuff like that works.

[wolfgangmo]

172. MadF

I agree with you about your OP but I want to suggest that there is more than one road to Damascus. I got out of teaching years ago after getting into a Texas pissing match with the principal. Another job was offered to me within days for more money, fewer hours, more fun and less stress. I haven't looked back since.

However, I think that dignity is intrinsic to the person and not to the position. I wonder if this misunderstanding is a southern culture/northern culture thing? Great OP.

[silverojo]

4. They're learning to have a sense of humor

You might want to enroll there.

[madfloridian]

41. If that is what is called a sense of humor.....you can have it.

Because I don't think it is funny at all.

I think it is degrading to both students and teachers.

What did they learn from it. That teacher can have spaghetti thrown on them.

[surrealAmerican]

98. You don't think it's funny because you're not a ten-year-old.

This is not meant to appeal to an adult audience. This is the same sort of "reward" schools have been using for decades. Besides, gym teachers have somewhat less of a physical boundary from their students than classroom teachers to begin with.

[madfloridian]

103. No, I am not a ten year old.

When we start having to appeal to them that way?

[rucognizant]

189. Oh come on!

I wouldn't think this was funny when I was 10 either! I would have been appalled! So would my 7 year old Grandson!

[omega minimo]

[omega minimo]

90. They're learning to be on "Jackass"

[ColbertWatcher]

5. What lesson are we teaching when we waste food "for entertainment"? n/t

[NeedleCast]

55. That they can raise 3,800 dollars for medical research?

Bowl of spaghetti for 3,800 bucks of medical research funding seems like a solid trade...

[ColbertWatcher]

87. So, there's no other way to raise money for research?

I guess what the real lesson is that creativity does not pay.

[rucognizant]

190. OK

Weigh the IMPORTANCE OF MEDICAL RESEARCH against WORLD HUNGER..............the winner??????
Medical Research is just another package we have been trained to think wonderful! FOR THE PROFIT OF THE MEDICAL WORLD. I'm 70 and let me tell you, medicine was a lot better years ago. Oh they may have fancy star events like replacing limbs & organs, but they are tone deaf when it comes to ordinary every day medicine! ( My Mother was a VERY SMART nurse, would probably have gone on to Medical school if it hadn't been the 30's and she a woman!) my parents best friend was a DR,)

[omega minimo]

116. That spaghetti causes heart attacks?

:shrug:

[soothsayer]

6. That all work and no play makes jack a dull boy? that we're all human, even authority figure?

[Stevenmarc]

8. Was the rental company out of dunk tanks?

[noamnety]

9. I'm fine with this (and I'm a teacher).

Play is an important part of learning. Much of the learning that kids do when they are younger comes through play.

Our kids enjoy their classes more when the teachers aren't afraid to be silly. I've seen a group of our girls in a hip hop class challenge our slightly geeky (no offense to him) principal to come in and learn a few dance moves - which he did.

I've seen our band conductor (a guy) running around the school in one of the kids' tutus.

When some of my kids were a bit slow about learning some code, I had one of the kids write it on my face so they had to stare at it when they were with me that hour.

One of the favorite stories from when I was in college came from when a prospective family was meeting with the founder of our school - a very proper elderly woman in a suit and pearls. During the meeting, a group of breathless students in bathing suits came running into the room. They had apparently had an argument over whether they could convince her to join them in the pool (an outdoor pool very close to her office). She excused herself, walked out to the pool, and did a perfect swan dive - fully clothed. She exited out of the pool, still with perfect composure, and returned to the meeting soaking wet.

One of the biggest obstacles to learning, I think, is being afraid to look silly or stupid. As small kids we're fine with that, but as we get older, there is an expectation that it's "unprofessional" to be creative or to make fools of ourselves. Think about how that translates into a poor reader having to read something out loud in front of the class, or a student being afraid to share an idea about something the class has been reading.

[Deja Q]

16. You might be right...

[madfloridian]

30. I guess we just disagree on this.

I don't think there is anything wrong with a teacher keeping dignity.

I don't think silly measures like this should be necessary.

[Joe Bacon]

44. Dignity is a two way interaction

I had some very distasteful encounters with a set of "teachers" who went out of their way to insult and humiliate me in high school. One math teacher in particular singled me out with the "N" word because of my hair. Time after time he called me "N-head", oh it was just so funny to him and his fellow teachers just thought it was so knee-slapping funny that they picked it up too. Try to complain? oh, the school principal and school board members kept telling me to grow up and take it like a man. the icing on the cake was when my peers named me "most likely to fail". Well, If you define failure as getting an MA in economics from a prestigious university, designing computer games and becoming a master level chess and bridge player, well, I guess I did fail.

I treat the public school system the same way it treated me. I have no confidence in it.

[wolfgangmo]

141. Joe,

Look at your past experiences through the understanding of your current circumstances and experience.

Would you consider one experience from one school to be sufficient statistical data to set metrics? In other words don't judge all schools by your one experience. Which is not to say that I think the overall system of public and private education doesn't need an overhaul.

I find that the kids I have met who went through the Waldorf [http://www.whywaldorfworks.org/} system to be above average to superior in maturity, understanding, systems analysis, and synthesis. They were completely heads and shoulders above the public and catholic school kids. I wonder if a similar system couldn't be adopted somehow?

[wolfgangmo]

140. MadF

I agree with most of your posts and opinions but I must diverge with you on this one.

Dignity is intrinsic and internal. There is nothing anyone can do to me to make me lose it. An example of this were the brutalities that were heaped upon Nelson Mandala, and yet he was the epitome of dignity.

Contrarywise, if I lack it, then nothing that is done for me will give it to me. An example of this might be Britney Spears of recent vintage. If I extrapolate this position out to a teacher, no amount of spaghetti will tarnish his dignity if he possesses it. The opposite is true as well.

I hope this makes sense to you.

As for respect, that is a 2 way street and must be earned daily from both parties.

Cheers,

[madfloridian]

157. I don't understand.

I never will.

But I am out of the system now. I did my best, I cherished my kids.

I leave the food dumping to the future generations of teachers and kids.

Let them have at it.

[wolfgangmo]

173. May the lord and lady and whatever gods you worship

Bless you for your dedication and work. Enjoy your retirement. No one worked harder for it.

Love your posts, so keep em coming.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

167. I consider your idea of what dignity is a tad superficial.

They've done a good thing, collecting money for the AHA. In light of that, the spaghetti looks rather dignified.

[LWolf]

10. This has become a common practice:

setting up a teacher or an administrator to be subjected to all kinds of indignations, and nurturing educators as figures to be attacked with glee.

Instead of valuing learning, and taking pride in one's own intellectual and/or academic accomplishments.

[No.23]

12. I wholeheartedly agree.

Thanks for pointing this out.

One of my own personal life lessons, that I discovered for myself is, is...

when you learn the value of respecting someone, you tend to shy away or avoid acts which may demean that person.

Kids are too willing to "put down" or deride other kids today.

I never cease to be amazed with how willing they are to do that.

And I wonder where they get dissing lessons from.

[LWolf]

13. I think it's a cultural dysfunction.

To gain esteem through put-downs and disrespect of others.

As long as that dysfunction is nurtured in popular culture, we're going to see it thriving in our students. :(

[No.23]

17. Boy, do you have that down pat.

This has bothered me to no end, too, for the longest of times.

Many of our children's unthinking willingness to "diss" each other and the adults in their lives, that is.

Which leads me to suspect that respectful conduct and consideration is glaringly absent in our learning curriculum these days.

Both at home and in our schools.

[Hannah Bell]

65. tv sit-coms.

[wolfgangmo]

175. That would be Rush

And the GOP

[Deja Q]

15. Intellectual or academic accomplishments are nerdy, geeky, and/or dorky.

What's going on is how our society "works". If you want to believe it's working, because it isn't.

[LWolf]

27. I think you just made my point for me. nt

[madfloridian]

32. "Instead of valuing learning"

Exactly right.

[Lorien]

161. Yikes! When did this begin?

I admit, I went to a very liberal private school throughout most of my childhood. We loved and respected our teachers and would have NEVER wanted to see any of them humiliated in any way. We might have gotten in a snowball fight with one or two of them after hours, but that's just childhood playfulness and not any attempt at humiliation. I think that this type of "reward" teaches the wrong lesson; that authority of any kind deserves punishment and that education itself is some sort of punishment that requires "revenge". Not good.

[No.23]

11. To noamnety: thanks for chiming in.

I agree with much of what you said.

But I'd like to suggest that there is more than one way to skin a desired learning objective cat.

The example offered by the OP, for instance.

Think it might plant a seed for some kids to participate in a food fight later on?

Food was used as an item of play, by the teacher involved.

Think that may give a stamp of approval for some to use food as an item of play later on too?

Play is important for creating an effective learning environment, I most certainly agree.

I try to practice that at home with my daughter too.

But there are different kinds of play, with their different built-in messages.

I've seen a bully kid, once, take another child's lunch and dump it on her head.

I hope that he didn't get that idea from his teacher.

Thanks again.

[noamnety]

34. I can see your point.

If you focus more on humiliating people as fun - I can see how it's offensive.

If you focus more on teaching staff needing to be dignified and "proper" at all times, then I disagree. I like things like the Ron Clark academy where they've replaced one of their stairwells with a big slide, so kids AND staff can slide downstairs. It's completely without dignity, and looks like a blast:

[No.23]

36. I think my focus was clear, noamnety.

And it was responsive to the OP's original question, regarding what message are the kid's receiving from the spaghetti-dump game.

Thanks for the reply.

[Deja Q]

14. Nope. We stopped teaching stupid things like "respect" a long time ago.

The media often espouses the antithesis of "respect", and nobody's around to remind the kiddies that entertainment is not real life.

I'm glad the principal kept his word. He should have waited for the kids to do their part. Leadership starts from the top down, which is why I'll give President Obama far, far, FAR more respect than I never would for G W Bush... apart from capitalizing the name, of course...

[MattBaggins]

18. My motivation was the kick in the ass

my father would give me for goofing off in school. I had the added plaesure of living across the street from the Principal.

[dem629]

19. We need to form "Solidarity Against Any and All Fun"

Everything should be very serious all the time.

No one should ever do something that makes people laugh.

No one should ever do something to cut the tension in stressful environments.

Stop all fun and playful behavior now!

[No.23]

22. So noted.

That you don't draw a distinction between: 1) having fun and being respectful at the same time; and, 2) having fun in a demeaning way.

Kids have fun dissing other kids too.

At least they're having fun, eh?

[dem629]

23. Really? This is what's bothering you?

LOL

You must be assuming that these teachers were unwitting dupes in plans hatched by the kids. How did that happen?

Why won't you give these teachers credit for being able to make their own choices about what they're going to do?

And I had to laugh at your comment about the kids walking by the teacher on the roof, and your assumption that they weren't even paying attention. IT'S A SNAPSHOT. One picture. You don't know that those kids were standing there for five or ten minutes looking at the teacher and/or talking to him. You take one still picture and make a generalization about the entire story from it.

You're just looking for stuff to bitch about.

The least you could do is grant the teachers the benefit of the doubt. Have some respect for their decisions and intelligence.

[No.23]

28. Huh?

"And I had to laugh at your comment about the kids walking by the teacher on the roof, and your assumption that they weren't even paying attention."

I made no comment about that whatsoever. Are you sure that your comment radar is working properly today?

And no, I'm not interested in "looking for stuff to bitch about."

Teachers, like parents, are fallible. As am I.

But when I see a teacher approving food dumping in one instance (involving a teacher) and disapproving it in another (i.e. a food fight during lunch), I see a mixed message.

Or would you prefer that parents keep mum about the messages that their kids receive outside of their homes?

[JackDragna]

105. Is your thinking really so inflexible?

I teach. If I don't let my kids eat in class, yet I let them eat in the lunchroom, am I sending "mixed messages?" You sound like the people who blame cultural violence on video games. I've let my students, as part of a lab, launch water balloons at me. My class, however, is all business in terms of learning. For the vast majority of a school day, a typical kid goes through a very regimented routine. And yet, here, when the students have one chance to blow off some steam, when the teachers drop the "follow what I say at all times" routine and let a bit of their humanity show, all you can do is cast stones. I'm damned glad, for once, there are teachers getting spaghetti dumped on them and sleeping on the roof.

[dem629]

120. I mistook you for the OP. My fault.

But, yes, I still think you're just looking for something to bitch about.

[shugah]

24. but what is fun about dumping spaghetti on someone?

:shrug:

[dem629]

25. Is that up to you, or up to the teacher and the kids?

[shugah]

26. i didn't say it was up to anyone -

i'm just wondering what is fun about it.

[No.23]

29. I'm glad that you asked this question.

Teachers like to say that they're in a partnership, with their students' parents, to facilitate their learning development.

I take that partnership very seriously. Do you?

If you do, then what goes on in the classroom is as much a concern to me as what goes on in my home is to you.

And if a teacher uses food in the manner that the OP depicts... and my child is part of that game... then I have a concern about what message that game is giving her.

Or would you prefer that I not be concerned at all, as you "partner" in my child's/your student's development?

[Goblinmonger]

76. I get that,.

But certainly you can understand that the relationship I have with your student is not the same as their relationship with you, yes? And that there is no possible way I can have the same mentality toward anything as every parent of every child in my classroom, right? I have about 30 kids in every lit class I teach. Every one has a family that ranges from very liberal to ultra conservative. From fundamentalist religion to no religion. How am I, as partners with every one of those parents, going to be able to be consistent at all times with each one of them? As my partner, you are going to have to learn to be a little more flexible with what you demand out of me.

[wolfgangmo]

142. This former teacher never said anything about a partnership.

I was there to teach, students to learn, and parents to support what happened at school. If they disagreed with me, I was cool with that even if they weren't.

But partners? No. They couldn't do what I did and I couldn't parent. We had separate jobs.

Perhaps there are teachers who say that, but there are teachers who say that Jeebus walked with the Dino's and that the Bible is the literal word of Bog and infallible even when it often contradicts itself. Some of them even say that Bush was the 2nd coming. Thankfully they are a minority.

[noamnety]

89. If the participant is willing

then I think the fun is in the unexpectedness of an adult willing to get messy.

I'm concerned that kids today are afraid of that - in a way that we never were when I was a kid. Maybe part of that is that we used to play outside in the mud or snow, whereas kids today are spending more and more time in front of televisions and video games with parents chasing after them with lysol wipes and hand sanitizer. I was shocked the first time I brought my kids outside to sit under a tree for a class discussion - and found out kids today won't sit on the grass, even if they are just wearing blue jeans.

We've some kids who have signed up for ceramics, and then they are afraid to put their hands in the clay. That's a problem, and it's something we need to work at.

Context is everything there. A student putting clay onto another student's face with joint consent can be fun without being demeaning. Holding a student down against their will and forcing clay on their face is an act designed to demean a person. This is from our school. Demeaning? Or not?



That's the situation with the spaghetti-monster here. I'm sure the same man would use appropriate discipline if a student randomly threw spaghetti at him outside of a specific context with ground rules. He obviously trusts them enough to believe they understand the difference in context. If we believe we aren't capable of teaching them that distinction, maybe we aren't doing all that well as teachers.

[madfloridian]

33. This is a really eye-opening thread about changing American culture.

And respect for teachers and authority figures.

And just plain lowering standards.

It's been done so long it seems normal.

How sad.

[No.23]

42. Actually, madfloridian, we may want to consider...

making some really BIG paradigmatic changes in how we educate our children... if we really want to see a whole different future for our young ones.

The behaviors that we ask of them in school, are often the behaviors that they will exemplify as adults.

Two examples come immediately to mind:

1) we want our citizens to constructively question the authority of our Government, but we ask our children to unquestioning obey and comply with the authority figures in school, and;

2) we want our citizens to care about the plight and progress of their neighbors, but we chiefly laud and reward individual accomplishments in the classroom.

If we want our future citizens to be more concerned about their neighbors, then we need to encourage certain conducts that support that concern in he classroom.

[madfloridian]

43. I am not sure what you are advocating.

So I don't know how to answer you.

[No.23]

46. Some drastic changes in how we educate our kids.

Not just cosmetic ones.

For instance, and instead of lauding/applauding individual accomplishment only, how about placing some much-needed additional attention on group progress as well?

Have the student ask the question, "how have I contributed to the overall progress/accomplishments of my classmates"?

I think that a child should be asked to e-value-ate his contributions the overall progress of his classroom neighbors.

The valuation of individual accomplishment offers a fertile ground for later expressions of narcissism, me thinks.

It's time that we started highlighting the value of... "my value as a human being is also determined by the contributrion that I make to my neighbor's progress"... in the classrom.

Just to mention one example of a significant paradigmatic change.

[madfloridian]

52. We have done that for years in our schools.

But it all comes down in the end to a person's own accomplishment after all.

[omega minimo]

118. That would be a return to teaching Civics

[wolfgangmo]

143. We also

need to scrap the classroom. It is an anachronism from the industrial age and designed, at it's core, to train kids for factory work.

[treestar]

171. Black and white fallacy

Straw man, etc.

[RB TexLa]

21. So they are celebrating the students doing something they are supposed to be able to do?

There is a celebration for them passing a test they are supposed to be able to pass after receiving the level of education they have received?


What's next a celebration for them after they demonstrate they can breath on a continuing basis?

[noamnety]

48. Your wording is interesting.

Our views on passing tests are probably influenced by whether we view learning as something kids "receive" or something they "achieve."

If you view it as a passive process, receiving information, then yes, it's not so different from breathing (though I'd note here that we also celebrate birthdays which are pretty much a celebration of breathing for another full year).

If you view learning as an active process, then the celebration is that they were given a task, they put effort into it, and they accomplished their goal.

[renate]

38. I remember when people worried about the effect Sesame Street would have on education

The thinking was that the short, snappy segments on Sesame Street would get kids used to being highly entertained all the time... never a dull moment.

Well, now kids have NO tolerance for boredom, with a gazillion TV channels, the Internets, and video games available 24-7. This isn't entirely parents' fault--it's just about impossible to insulate kids from this kind of thing, unless they're born bookworms (as a bookworm with two kids who definitely aren't, believe me when I say that I have tried very hard to get the kids to curl up with books and enjoy some quiet time. That's just not who they are).

But it's not teachers' fault at all. I'm guessing that most of them would prefer to have their kids lined up in rows, enthusiastically reading what they're told to read and getting excited by the fundamentals of science and math. But to hold kids' attention these days, teaching has become entertainment. And I say God bless the teachers who are willing to go above and beyond teaching in order to keep the kids engaged in school.

[madfloridian]

40. "willing to go above and beyond teaching" to keep the kids engaged??

Like allowing them to throw spaghetti on them?

Maybe I misunderstood.

Yes, teaching can be entertaining, and perhaps should be, but that's just too much.

[Hello_Kitty]

51. Those kids grow up to be employees who need to be entertained

After all, work is so boring.

[Goblinmonger]

78. Not the point of the OP

but I am tired of being told that it is my job to get students ready to be employees. Or to be college students. My job is to teach them English and meet the standards set forth by the state and those specific goals set forth by my district. Last time I read through them, there was nothing in the English standards about making them good employees. How about the employers teach them how to be good employees at their place of employment, because I guarantee you that no two employees are going to have the same set of expectations and if I have to teach to all those expectations, then English goes out the window.

[Hello_Kitty]

85. I'm not saying it is.

I think you should teach your students English, and hopefully some critical thinking. I was commenting on the notion that kids need to be "entertained" at every waking moment. They grow up to be adults who require constant stimulation. Believe me, I see them all around me. And so do you. They not only make unproductive employees (unless they are among the rare few lucky enough to go into a high-drama high-stimulus career) but they also make poor citizens. Researching the issues is too "boring" so they vote for whomever waggles the shiny baubles in front of them.

[mitchum]

45. I use self-deprecating humor with my students frequently...

and it is very effective, but I draw the line at this kind of humiliation

[Goblinmonger]

47. Your concern is noted.

As a teacher (high school), I think it shows that this guy doesn't have a stick up his ass and can actually have a relationship with the kids at an interpersonal level. If you were a teacher and didn't want to be a part of it, then I would imagine that would be fine for you to decline. This guy didn't want to. Why is that such a problem for you? Kind of like the teachers in my building that bitch about one thing or other that another teacher is doind.

[No.23]

49. So if my daughter was in your class...

and I came to you and articulated the following concern to you as your partner in her personal development and growth...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5300337&mesg_id=5302170

what would you say to me?

[Goblinmonger]

62. Do you think that food is absolutely forbidden as a tool in play?

Should nothing food ever been seen as fun? And I would venture to guess that there is no study that would support the correlation between a student who is not a bully becoming a food dumping bully because of seeing what is in the OP. There has to be a predisposition there. Additionally, do you think the fact that 20 years down the line the kid might remember this teacher as being a fun teacher might have an impact on what they learned from that teacher along the way?

Ultimately, if, as her parent, you felt it was inappropriate, I would support your decision to not have the child take part in that activity. I would articulate that you would probably want to discuss it with your child so that you are making that decision based on what the child feels is appropriate, what they may or may not get out of it, their attitude toward it rather than just having it be a top-down mandate based on your perception of the world.

[No.23]

94. Ah, you got me.

Well done too.

Yes, I confess.

I am of the mind that what feeds us and replenishes us deserves our respect.

Or, at a minimum, gratitude.

And I discuss almost everything with my daughter. As she discuses almost everything with me.

Including those things that I think may be inappropriate.

But she has that privilege with me too. And freely tells me what she thinks is inappropriate as well.

Lastly, and if she came home and told me that her teacher planned on having spaghetti dumped on him... I'd ask her if she would consider asking her teacher if she could bring Joe to the event.

Joe is one of several homeless people she has befriended. And he'd probably want to scoop up the spaghetti off the floor and save it for his next meal.

[noamnety]

125. I don't think your argument holds up well under scrutiny.

Do you have the same objection to paper mache (using wheat flour glue?)

Maybe any arts classes should be done away with - because the money spent for art supplies or music lessons could feed homeless people instead.

Or ... maybe kids should be allowed to do a few frivolous things like drawing with sidewalk chalk or blowing bubbles without having to contemplate the morality of how those few dollars could have been better spent.

---------

The event in the OP specifically was to raise funds to help people other than themselves ... I doubt the lesson they learned from it was "to hell with other people's needs."

[No.23]

176. *shakes his head and sighs*

Incredible.

That you should compare edible food with the items that you use here to make your point.

Truly incredible.

You must not run across too many homeless people who ask you for a means for them to have a bite.

My daughter and I do almost every day.

It's regrettable, IMO, that some of us have the attitude that we do regarding food.

But that's only my opinion, of course.

[noamnety]

177. We always used flour for paper mache.

You never did that? You find it immoral?

I can't comprehend that.

[wolfgangmo]

145. If you asked me that I would answer in a socratic manner...

... asking you if your child is allowed to shower in your house. If you answered yes then I would further ask you if your child tries to shower in the kitchen or in the back yard in the sprinkler?

The point here is context. What is appropriate in one place with one circumstance changes with the context and location. Farting in bed is OK. Farting on your mothers head is not. Context.

Kids get this sometimes and need help understanding it others. It is part of the process of education.

[No.23]

180. Context also includes HOW we do what we do, and not just geographical location.

What has always mattered to me more than what you do is... HOW you do it.

And the HOW of what you do crosses all lines of geographical boundaries.

Two examples, for instance:

Let's take your example of my daughter showering. She may shower in my home or at her friend's home or even at Girl Scouts' camp, but she's learned to shower with a minimal waste of water. Her girl friends even kid her about that, but that's a personal value that she has embraced for herself.

Same holds true for the food that she eats.

She only order food, at a restaurant, that she'll be able to eat, and no more. And she rarely, if ever, throws food away. She would rather give it away than dump it.

So yeah, contexts differ. But your relationship to limited commodities can and should cross all boundaries, in my opinion.

That's what respecting the things that you have does to you. It compels you to respect them across contextual boundaries.

[madfloridian]

50. So if I act dignified around students then I have a "stick up the ass"?

Sounds like that is what you are saying.

Don't worry, I already see how the wind is blowing.

[No.23]

56. Teachers, like managers and poltical leaders, are human, MF.

And the number one ingredient that makes all of them less effective than they can be, IMO, is the desire to be liked.

The politician who wants to be liked (instead of respected) will likely tell you what you want to hear, versus what you need to hear.

So will the manager.

Ditto with some teachers.

It's a human trait to want to be liked.

But not necessarily the most professional one to feed.

[Goblinmonger]

66. OK, I'll jump to the other extreme since you went to one side.

So the teacher needs to be hated? That is the better option?

Just because students sit in a teacher's classroom and don't say a thing and act the way many would see as being "well behaved" does not mean that they like or respect that teacher and it certainly doesn't mean that they are learning a damn thing. There are several teachers in my school (and I think it is representative of all schools) that are feared by the students. They don't act up. I also hear in the halls how much they hate that teacher and how little they learn or want to learn in that classroom.

[No.23]

93. You're missing my point.

I'm just not sure if it's intentional or not.

My point was that many people... particularly in the 3 professions that I cited... are too interested in being LIKED by their constituents... and that that interest warps their ability to be maximally effective.

I used to be involved in management training and development for a number of years. And it was quite apparent that many managers had a difficult time managing some employees... because they wanted to be liked by their employees... and refrained from saying what had to be said (i.e. correctuve action).

Many politicians fall victim to the same dynamic, which is why they pander as much as they do.

An I've seen many teachers act this way too.

The alternative to this dynamic is not hatred, as you suggest; but respect.

I'm thinking that this may not be so obvious to some, because it may not be a subject that is consistently addressed in some classroom.

[wolfgangmo]

147. Point taken.

Respect does lead to maximum productivity and a demand for students best efforts.

Good teachers let the students know exactly where the line in the sand is drawn, but do it in a way that is not threatening or demeaning. Learning is related to emotions in many ways. Fun is OK. So is being serious. Being one or anther all the time is not so good. Losing track of what the educational outcomes are is bad.

Can we agree on any of this?

[No.23]

174. No, I will not agree with...

any of this.

I prefer to agree with all of it.

:)

Nicely said too.

[wolfgangmo]

178. Then

We also likely agree that we need to have more teachers who can walk that line.

Too many teachers, in my experience, are taught to be afraid of "losing control." Philosophically speaking control is an illusion, but a good teacher should be able to get to the heart of any kids they teach and help them find their own motivation. Any teacher doing their job will not be needed by their students after they leave their care. There should be nothing extra that a good teacher can teach. All students should exceed you. However this is an ideal, but one that should be strove for.

I wish more teachers would let go of their fear and teach their kids to do the same.

[No.23]

183. Agree with you here again.

I would also encourage teachers and parents to give the following exposition on children and education a serious read:

http://www.alternativeeducationindia.net/education_ch1.htm

It is one of my very few personal "bibles" in this arena.

Both as my daughter's dad and her principle external facilitator of learning.

[Hello_Kitty]

58. We live in a culture of hazing.

Humiliating and demeaning other people is the height of entertainment to a lot of people.

[madfloridian]

64. It appears to be just that...

I agree that demeaning others has taken on wider meaning, as seen on TV

[Goblinmonger]

63. I think a lot of the attitudes in this thread

indicate what I might refer to as not just a "dignified" bent but an elitist one. That the feeling is that the teachers are so many rungs above the lowly students that they shouldn't be having fun with the students. Do I think that I am on the same level as the students? No, I am their teacher. Do I think that there is no level of respect afforded me? No, I am their teacher. But I also feel that there are times when it is OK for the students to see me as an actual human being that is much like them. That I can relax. That I can have fun. That is OK, too, and I don't feel it has to result in a loss of respect in the classroom. On the contrary, I think it can build that respect up even higher.

[madfloridian]

67. Teachers must be a rung above students....

I think parents should be parents first and buddy buddies later on in life.

And now this is rather becoming about being elite if one doesn't like being demeaned. interesting.

[Goblinmonger]

70. Why can't you admit that "demeaned" is subjective?

It isn't an objective reality. You might feel that being in that situation is demeaning. Perhaps that other teacher doesn't and perhaps it isn't demeaning for them. In the classroom, I get the point that teachers need to be perceived as teachers. But, IMO, that isn't eroded if they see you as human and like them in other situations.

[madfloridian]

71. It demeans education over all to rely on throwing spaghetti.

But I get your point.

You don't seem to think that teachers can be dignified and have a sense of humor.

I don't know how to explain that to you.

:shrug:

[Goblinmonger]

74. Fine. You can be dignified and have a sense of humor.

It seems, to me anyway, to be a sense of humor that does not allow for any other type of sense of humor. Shakespeare relied on poop and fart jokes. It's funny. I tell my Brit Lit kids every year that if the British taught us one thing it's that nothing is funnier than a fart joke--unless it's a man in a dress. Why can't it be OK for others to see it that way and not as something demeaning?

Too often it feels like I work with people that see the world with a "my way is the only way" mentality. This seems like another example.

[tonysam]

108. I Absolutely HATE the Idea of Teachers Thinking They Can Be

"buddies" or "friends" with their students--it's impossible when they are authority figures.

The chances are good teachers who enjoy this kind of humiliation are younger teachers.

I remember one veteran teacher who had nothing but disdain for some of the newer types of teaching instruction. She told me teaching is NOT a "dog-and-pony show" where the kids have to be entertained all the time. The fact is, life after school is not a "dog-and-pony show" and jobs can be and are boring. Kids need to deal with it.

[wolfgangmo]

148. I agree absolutely.

However there is a difference between friends and friendly. I was friendly with my students. I was never their buddy, friend or pal.

The line was clear. I was the adult. I was the teacher. They were the child and they were the student. And yet we could respect each other, I respecting their emerging talent, and they respecting my superior knowledge and emotional maturity.

And yes, I was acted goofy sometimes. I laughed out loud. I joked. I cried, And I never, ever forgot my job or the educational outcomes that we were both required to achieve.

[omega minimo]

91. So this non "stick up the ass" teacher the others "bitch" about thinks that

what his students really really want to do is dump food on him? :shrug:


Maybe he likes it..............

[etherealtruth]

99. Why disparage the teacher?

He encouraged the children to raise money for a good cause. In addition, he raised awareness for that cause.

His method may or may not be to your liking, the man used his judgment and engaged in a little silliness and frivolity ... it seems to have worked. Good for him.

[omega minimo]

107. why not answer the question? not disparagement or a counter to your comment

:eyes:

[NeedleCast]

53. Seems Like Harmless Fun for a Good Cause to Me (n/t)

[madfloridian]

54. Note the ones who equate doing this with having a sense of humor.

I find that an amazing leap in analysis.

To equate being able to dump spaghetti on a teacher with that teacher having a sense of humor.

Something is wrong with that picture.

[NeedleCast]

60. Then you understand little about humor

This is pretty standard pratfall/slapstick stuff. Some people think it's funny, some don't. It looks to me like everyone in the spaghetti picture is having fun. Even if you don't think this particular brand of humor is funny, it doesn't make it in any way disrespectful or degrading to "authority figures."

You keep going on and on about the lack of respect being show to an "authority figure" but I just don't see it. It's a little but of light-hearted fun in what I imagine is an otherwise typical school day for the kids.

Our society has turned being a kid into such a god damned chore that it's no wonder we're the most heavily medicated country in the world.

As has been said many times in this thread - and what you don't seem to be able to wrap your head around - is that there's no disrespect being show in the photos above. I respect my boss at work because he has a sense of humor and wouldn't be afraid to sit in a dunk tank or get covered in pasta for a good cause.

This may not be your idea of fun, but you don't get to decide what is and isn't fun for other individuals. There's nothing at all wrong with that picture. In fact, it tells me that this teacher is a damn fine person for saying he's not afraid to take a pile of pasta on the head in exchange for a good cause. I think it tells our kids its okay to suffer the horrible indignity of pasta in exchange for a good cause.

[madfloridian]

61. You folks are making the point for me quite well.

I love the way this thread is being turned into a matter of my character and my idea of fun and humor.

It's amazing. It's real, and it's now American as apple pie and....spaghetti.

[wolfgangmo]

149. I for one do not give a fig about your sense of humor or idea of fun.

They are only relevant to you and to those you choose to interact with. I do respect you, however.

I think we are seeing a classic case of online misunderstanding.

As I explained earlier dignity is intrinsic. Having said that, I agree with you that teachers should not be buddy buddy or friends with students. That is not the job. But they can be irreverent if the moment requires it to achieve an educational goal or to move the emotional tone of a class in a particular direction.

Perhaps I am tainted by having been a performing arts teacher. I know that many "regular" teachers I worked with considered me to be "outside" the curriculum and were not shy in saying so in many forums despite the fact that my program was the only one to meet and exceed national standards as set by my national association.

Sigh. Good times. Good times.

[madfloridian]

156. I can tell you don't care a fig.

That's too bad, really.

Hey, as long as the state pays me my pension...I'm okay with the bad attitudes toward teachers.

I can always look back and say that those who needed special attention always got it. They got the extra help and care they needed to the best of my ability.

None of that matters anymore in this society.

Hell, just don't stop my pension and annuities I worked hard for...names and opinions can't harm me.:sarcasm:

Have fun.

[wolfgangmo]

179. To clarify

When I say I don't give a fig what I mean is that my opinion is just an opinion and has only as much value as is assigned to it by myself. To the best of my knowledge opinions were not selling briskly on eBay. As such I assign other opinions the exact value the market assigns them. Nothing.

I listen to other opinions but that has no effect on who I am, how I feel about myself, or my dignity. That isn't to say that I don't reflect on feedback and try to incorporate the good ideas into my life. I suspect you do the same thing.

[renate]

97. thank you

I wouldn't tolerate disrespect from students if I were a teacher, but I also think that fun is... well, fun. And that being a kid ought to be fun as well as work. And that if teachers are okay with goofing around a little, then good for them.

[Goblinmonger]

68. I bet you hate the Three Stooges, don't you.

And the Marx Brothers. And Harold Lloyd. And Charlie Chaplin. All examples of how the "current culture" is going to hell in a hand basket in the use of food as humor. Oh, and Twain in Huck Finn.

[wolfgangmo]

181. Too far?

There is no evidence, subjective or objective to make that judgement call. You may be right, but you don't have the evidence to back it up.

For all you know he might have a collection of whoopee cushions.

[tammywammy]

57. Who knew that dunking a teacher once when I was in 4th grade scarred me for life

:eyes:

Yet somehow I still managed to become a successful adult.

[madfloridian]

59. I love this thread.

I really do.

It just so completely shows the evolution in the way teachers are perceived.

If I don't want kids throwing spaghetti on me I have no sense of humor.

And dunking an assistant principal did not scar you for life, which of course was not the point at all.

My point of the loss of dignity in the teaching profession has been made over and over by people in this thread who think they are refuting it.

Terms of respect have changed so much that I seem the bad guy for questioning.

I love this thread.

[Goblinmonger]

69. Don't confuse a teacher's relationship with students

with the way society perceives teachers. Two different things.

And hey, if you don't want to do something as a teacher, don't. But where do you get off saying that they guy in the picture can't make the decision on his own, as a professional, that his relationship with students is strong enough and will be improved by taking part in the food-based activities? Maybe he's right. Maybe things will be just fine with him. Doesn't work for you and your style? That's cool. You strike me as the type of teacher in my building who tells me that letting kids talk during study hall is just horrible and I shouldn't do it and that by me letting them talk it gives kids ideas in their study hall that they can talk. My response is that what works for me works for me and what works for you works for you. Deal with it. Seems like that might be in order here.

[madfloridian]

77. You are now demeaning me instead of addressing the issue...

of what our kids are learning.

I don't have to deal with it anymore. I am retired after many long years of teaching. I never allowed people to throw spaghetti on me. But I got lots of hugs from the little ones I taught, and even the older ones.

You have a problem with me because I think differently.

It is a sign of our changing country and its mores.

It really is.

[Goblinmonger]

79. I don't have a problem with you because you think differently.

I have a problem with you because, while thinking differntly from me, you want to dictate to me the way I should think or act. If you want your teacher persona to be a certain way, I have no problem with that. Once you start telling me that MY teacher persona needs to be the way YOUR persona is, I have a problem.

Do what you want. I don't care. I expect the same in return and it doesn't seem, from your postings on this thread, that the ability to develop the persona you want is a two-way street.

[madfloridian]

84. You don't seem the type to allow anyone to dictate to you about anything.

:shrug:

[The Straight Story]

72. This thread made my head hurt, I think I need a drink :)

1. I think you have a sense of humor, it is just different than others' sense of humor.

2. No one seemed to have gotten hurt in any of this, but it still seems like some are trying to create a victim in the whole ordeal. Kids wanted to do it, teacher did, kids reached goal (which in turn means the teacher probably reached his goal).

3. About those who think it could contribute to bullying or food fights - not all kids bully. The ones that do didn't start because of this. If we see all kids as so weak minded that everything they see is going to cause them to go off the deep end then we are in a heap of trouble (and I think some adults see other adults the same way).

4. People of all ages are different and have different triggers, likes, experiences, and so on. Right after my mom died I couldn't watch any shows that had anyone die or get hurt in them, it upset me too much - but I didn't expect the rest of the world to change for my own needs. We are a huge melting pot and very diverse. We need to learn to accept that some folks like things we don't (like, owning a gun or smoking or watching soap operas).

5. Rewarding kids for doing what they are supposed to be doing is to me akin to paying an employee - kids don't get a paycheck at the end of the week for their hard work, giving them a little something in return isn't going to make most of them expect a 'bonus'.

Sometimes kids dumping spaghetti on a teacher is just that.
And sometimes telling someone "Happy Saint Patrick's" day is just a nice gesture and not them trying to convert you to being a catholic :)

[madfloridian]

75. Dumping spaghetti and shaving the heads of principals show cultural changes

beyond the usual.

Dumping spaghetti shows the new culture of our society.

[Goblinmonger]

80. I'm making a black russian when I get home tonight.

Want me to pour one for you?

I agree with your 5-point manifesto.

[BlooInBloo]

73. Psst. Hey geniuses. They're laughing AT you, not with you.

As am I. :rofl:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

81. Proof There's A Never Ending Litany Of Fake Things To Be Outraged About.

:eyes:

[tammywammy]

82. Indeed

[Goblinmonger]

83. OK, now I'm worried.

You and I are on the same side. :evilgrin:

[spoony]

106. Worry some more

Because you and I are, too! :P

[Goblinmonger]

112. This is clearly

one of the four horsemen. :toast:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

168. And me. Truly, the end is nigh.

:wow:

[omega minimo]

114. he's on whatever side he thinks is on top

[adamuu]

131. yes, don't forget things to worry about, as well. ;) n/t

[Obamanaut]

88. I had a H.S. teacher who taught us to read poetry using the

the punctuation that is in place rather than pause for a breath at the end of every line.

I still like reading poetry aloud. Graduated in 1960. When he died not too long ago, hundreds of former students attended the services. Best teacher I ever had. He knew how we felt.

[omega minimo]

92. Welcome to the United Stooges of America

:patriot:

"Makes one wonder what happened to dignity and respectful attitudes. Couldn't they celebrate their accomplishment in some other way?"

[Wetzelbill]

95. I think it's the cultural equivalent of dunking a teacher in a water tank

by throwing a ball at a target that sets it off.

We're now in a modern era where Fear Factor and Jackass have changed the landscape of goofy things that people do to each other. Yeah it's stupid but I don't think it's any worse than some goofy things that have been done in any other era. Every generation gets to an age where they look at what the current generation of high schoolers is doing and they wonder what the hell is going on. If anything an authority figure shouldn't put themselves in a position like that, they're the ones who have the power to set rewards etc.

[certainot]

100. limbaugh and sons have done a hit job on teachers the last 20 years

from 1000 stations with their coordinated uncontested repetition.

they have attacked the teaching profession constantly on behalf of the GOP and its 'think tanks' as they've done everything they can to dumb down the american public in general so they will be more likely to vote GOP, defund and sabotage public education so they can privatize public ed to increase the disparity between rich and poor education, and every election cycle they attack teachers unions for supporting dems. that is a general attack on teachers that has probably trickled down to the kids.

[proud2BlibKansan]

101. Give that teacher MERIT PAY!!

That is above and beyond the call of duty!!

[pipi_k]

102. Dignified and respectful didn't always work either

In fact, when I was that age, it wasn't even about dignity and respect. It was about fear, and sometimes shame.

Not real good motivators for learning.


I honestly can't see where stuff like this is actually hurting anybody. If it gets the kids to learn, then isn't that worth it?

I wish we had been allowed to have fun like this when I was a kid in school.

At the very least it would have been a huge break from not being able to have fun at home because we were all dealing with fear generated by living in an abusive home with an alcoholic father.

Adults can be accessible to kids in a humorous way and still get respect. In fact, I think kids are more likely to want to learn if they're treated like they matter to someone.

[madfloridian]

104. There are many kinds of humor. My classes loved my sense of humor

and it was not about demeaning anyone.

As I said, the thread is fascinating. It's like when I post about charter schools. I get put in my place. :shrug:

[wolfgangmo]

182. Charter schools.

Are not the answer, but many folks are hunting around for a solution to our broken public education system. I think the system needs to be reworked completely, but I also think that, by and large, most teachers are doing at least an OK job and several of them are beyond "wow."

So when others attach you about charter schools they have just latched onto them as the only viable alternative that they are aware of. It is kind of like Rush listeners. The only reason I can think of is that their radios dials are stuck

[Moochy]

109. This Thread is Spaghetti Cat Approved!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_0z9RemleNtE/SKmIOPPCAJI/AAAAAAAAAMU/-QCQyXHhCEA/s400/spaghetti+cat.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06ZsftPImew

"Dax Gingras" is a Physical Education teacher after all... :dunce:

(showing my anti-PE and anti-jock bias)
:yoiks:

[madfloridian]

110. Hilarious video.

Love Spaghetti cat. :evilgrin:

[gtar100]

111. I think you're misinterpreting what "respect" really is.

A classroom of students who are well-behaved may actually be filled with students who actually loath and disrespect the teacher.

This gym teacher may come back to his class the following school day and have the undying respect and admiration of his students because he has shown them that his self-respect and dignity are not dependent on outward "appearances", that he is alive and a human as simple as they are. And he has the chance to teach them there is a time and place for silliness and seriousness.

I think you're getting hung up on a particular perspective of the events and not seeing the joy in the expression. If you get hung up on one aspect of it, you lose the fact that a whole system needs to be in place for students and teachers to learn. Not just the building, the administration, the rules to follow, and the teachers and students to play their role. But also enthusiasm and joy in the process of learning, the love of knowledge, a passion for understanding, determination to achieve, and a reciprocal sense of respect and understanding between all people.

You can't force someone to respect you. And some may never respect you simply because they cannot see past your role. But you can, to a point, force people to obey you and provide the outward appearance of respect. But are you willing to go that way? It probably comes down to how you view the essential nature of people. Is there an innate nature in us to want to succeed and do well in what we do which can be jaded by experience or are we born as brutes who need to be forced into a productive and meaningful way of life?

A very under-appreciated part of the education process on the part of many teachers is Joy. If you don't have it, you aren't happy. If you aren't happy, what is the point? You may as well be a machine on an assembly line with no other purpose than to do your duty. That is generally the experience of life when the mind no longer values the higher emotions of joy and love. And trying to teach without them, students could be obedient out of fear of your wrath, but may in fact either be apathetic or rebellious with you.

Students are forced to go to school in today's society. Forced to be away from family, forced to do work in which they see no personal relevance, forced to follow rules for the benefit of a system they don't understand, and forced to repress their personal expressions in order to fit into the system. There are a minority of students who fit naturally fit into the mold of modern day schools. They discover who they are and their passions in life because it has exactly what they need and want. But it gives the illusion of success to schools. Schools set up a grading system that judges our children as to how well they fit. In fact, schools are failing our students because of their inflexible attitude of right and wrong. The unhappiness that abounds in schools is the number one indicator of just how much this system fails us. We put grades on our kids, but it is in fact the adults that are failing.

But we didn't start it either. We only perpetuate it onward to the next generation. Until finally one generation actually wakes up and does the work to actually fix it.

[madfloridian]

113. You say I am misinterpreting respect. Amazing thread.

I have learned a whole lot about myself in this thread.

Now that is interesting in itself.

I have learned that I have no sense of humor, that I didn't relate to the students, that I didn't interact correctly.

It's amazing what one learns at DU in one thread after not learning anything during 30 plus years of teaching.

Ain't it amazing?

[omega minimo]

115. .

[gtar100]

117. Actually you sparked a really interesting discussion. That *is* Amazing.

And what you learn from it is your own. I'm sure your experiences go far deeper than anything that can be written in a thread. You certainly have a gift that sparks discussion. That is the sign of a real teacher, indeed.

[madfloridian]

122. I have learned from the thread how culture has changed in this country.

Yes, it is an interesting discussion. You are right.

There is something about throwing food on someone that is more Animal House than schoolroom in nature.

There is something about dumping food on a person in a leadership role that degrades that person.

The assistant principal I mentioned in the OP. I asked him later why he did the dunk tank. He said there was no choice given to him. He then told me that the former principal resigned rather than subject himself and his staff to such shenanigans. I already knew that as the retired principal had told me so. But it was interesting to see it verified by another.

He had no choice but to go along with the demeaning things.

[wolfgangmo]

151. Wow.

What was demeaning was not the spagetti or the dunking pool but the fact that they were bullied into it by some asshat of a school board . Being forced to do something that you consider to demean dignity is wrong, wrong, wrong. I blame Reagan .

I would like to clarify some of your statements, "in my opinion."

"There is something about throwing food on someone that is more Animal House than schoolroom in nature," in your opinion.

"There is something about dumping food on a person in a leadership role that degrades that person," in your opinion.

Dignity is both subjective and intrinsic. There are things that are culturally based as well. I would not dare show the bottom of my shoe to a friend of mine who is from Qatar. He considers it insulting but doesn't take insult while here in America. I however respect his culture and make sure that I don't do it. He notices and appreciates that. One mans mead is another mans meat.

[madfloridian]

154. Is throwing food on a leadership figure acceptable in any other country?

just wondering. It probably is.

As it is with my rants against charter schools and merit pay, I understand my views have already lost standing.

It happened pretty quickly.

[noamnety]

192. I know the head shaving isn't just in the US.

Twenty-five schools arranged fund raising events to help raise money for the disaster, which struck on Boxing Day last year (26th December 2004), killing more than 200,000 people across southern Asia in massive sea surges triggered by the strongest earthquake in the world for 40 years.

Southend school children and staff raised £46,126 by organising events such as: -

Non uniform Days
Cake Sales
Bring and Buy
Raffle

Some of the more unusual included: -

Sponsored Skip and Jump
Teacher Head Shaving
Sponge the Teacher
Sponsored Climb
Keep Fit Day"

http://www.southend.gov.uk/news/default.asp?id=1489

If you follow the link, they list the various events and amount raised for each school. Notice the one that did head shaving raised far more than any other school.

[wolfgangmo]

184. madF

Remember back to you teaching days. No matter what is said about or to you, it is NEVER personal.

So don't take this personally. It's a discussion of ideas, even if many online seem to forget that.

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people.
Eleanor Roosevelt
US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962)

[Harry Monroe]

121. Whoopdeefucking doo!

No different than trying to dunk your "favorite" teacher in the dunking booth at the school fair in my day. It was and still is for a good cause and all in fun. I don't see the harm in it. With everything else going on, this is what you have chosen to be outraged about??

[madfloridian]

123. I was trying to stay away from the economic situation.

With my opinion on the Rubinomics involved, I knew not to go there. I thought this was a safe topic.

It is a safe topic. The only one being degraded is me.

Maybe I need to speak on the issues of the day and get really blasted for thinking Geithner should go.

[wolfgangmo]

153. Ahem

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." -Eleanor Roosevelt

[inthebrain]

124. OH THE CRIME!!!!

These people are trying to make school fun for the students!!!!

[madfloridian]

126. There are other ways to have fun in school. Many of them.

Ways that don't require being demeaning to authority figures.

[inthebrain]

127. Teachers are not authority figures

I never saw them as such. Then again, I still to this day don't like authority figures.

ANd if you are an authority figure and incapable of laughing at yourself you have some serious issues. Mostly being a power hungry asshole.

School is fucking boring. The actual material being taught many folks could care less for and would rather do something else. THe problem with those that go after the education system is that they forget how much they dreaded going to school each day. As I recall, no one in my class cried when the bell rang on Friday at 2:30.

The teacher that had spagghetti dumped on him wanted his students to raise money for the American Heart Association. In any case, I think that cause meant more to him than his false pride in being an authority figure. Oh, and through it all, maybe the students learned something. Maybe perhaps that there are more important things in life besides numbers, dates, equations and........authority figures.

[madfloridian]

128. Wow...your comment says a lot about you.

And you think I have serious issues?

:eyes:

[inthebrain]

130. I'm sure it does

and where do you get that I think you have serious issues?

I don't know you from a hole in the wall.

[LooseWilly]

129. This is the a time honored ritual demonstrating respect,

in the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=8011246

Obviously, this teacher is being honored for teaching the theory of Intelligent Flying Spaghetti Monster Creation. Unfortunately, in this country, too few teachers display such Intellectual Open Mindedness... or there would be more Spaghetti Gabba Gabba Hey ceremonies.

I'll thank you to stop disrespecting our beliefs by calling them disrespectful.

[adamuu]

132. lighten up! don't you know that part of having rules

is having the ability to make exceptions in rare cases?

[madfloridian]

133. Not rare anymore. It's the norm now.

Amazing thread.

[adamuu]

134. it is rare... like you said, they aren't allowed to have food fights at lunch every day. right?

so dumping food on someone is a giddy little exception to the rule. Can't you see that?

[madfloridian]

135. No, I don't think dumping food on someone shows kids good behavior.

I really don't.

[adamuu]

136. its not an example of good behavior. its an indulgence. in this case, it was well-earned.

aren't kids allowed to have indulgences every once in a while? or is that reserved for adults only?

[omega minimo]

137. why is dumping food on someone an "indulgence"? Unless the kids request it (food fight withdrawals?)

IS THAT THE BEST "INDULGENCE" ANYONE CAN COME UP WITH????????


IT'S STUPID. IT'S JACKASS. IT'S LAME.


:rant:

[undertheboardwalk]

162. got a question

Some of the disrespect toward educators ...I believe comes from some of the controversies that are always in the media,.

It seems the education system doesn't do an effective job of getting rid of educators who don't belong being educators in the first place......and I mean no disrespect toward the many fine teachers that I know personally. Most are excellent and caring..others, need to go find another line of work...just my 2 cents

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

138. Preparation for the corporate world

I work in a building that houses a large volume call center. They reward employees with silly games like this, such as getting to "Dunk" their manager or get time off to play "Clue" and "Monopoly". Seriously, you'd think it was a middle school with all the decorations and streamers and paper mache they put up. The employees are treated like children.

[wolfgangmo]

155. Sure they are.

It's cheaper to do shit like that and distract them then to actually pay them.

[gristy]

144. I agree with you on this one, Maddie. This is lame.

When I was in school I saw my teachers as adults, and I treated them as such.

[No.23]

150. Aren't Phys. Ed. teachers also supposesd to be role models of...

a healthier lifestyle, to include nutritional consumption, to their students?

I ask because the Phys. Ed. teacher in the OP article appears to be over-weight and suffered a mild heart attack at the beginning of the year.

The Phys. Ed. teachers in the public schools that I attended (NYC, and in the Sixties) were all proponents and excellent examples of a healthy lifestyle to their students. As a matter of fact, I distinctly recall students hiding their junk food whenever Mr. Jarvis, my Phys. Ed. teacher, walked through the cafeteria.

What happened to some Phys. Ed. teachers since then?

[undertheboardwalk]

152. too much emphasis on standardized tests

I think there is just too much emphasis on these standardized tests....

spending nights on end for standardized tests??

[progdonkey]

159. I can point out one teacher who definitely deserves cold spaghetti...

Whoever was supposed to teach English to the person who wrote that caption utterly failed: For the last four years Gringas has challanged all the students at the school to raise money for the American Heart Association through the Jump Rope for Heart challenge. :silly:

Also, why am I not surprised that the Phys Ed teacher had had a heart attack at age 33? Is there some requirement for PE teachers to either be complete health nuts OR perfect models of ill-health? My PE teacher throughout middle school was literally a pot-bellied pig. Nothing makes you hate PE more than a fat slob yelling at you for not running a mile fast enough.

[No.23]

160. I wholeheartedly agree.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5300337&mesg_id=5311312

By the way, I showed the picture of the Phys. Ed. teacher in the OP to my elementary school-aged daughter, the other day. And I asked her to read the accompanying article aloud to me.

Know what her response was?

"I think that the reporter maybe made a mistake. He looks more like a Home Ed. teacher than a PE teacher."

Kids say the darndest things, as Art Linkletter used to say.

They sure do.

[undertheboardwalk]

163. not to quibble

but shouldn't it be What Are Our Children Learning?

[madfloridian]

164. I put the quotes....because Bush said it first. He said "is" our children learning"

[undertheboardwalk]

166. OK -- I gotcha

I didn't follow that....:)

[Echo In Light]

165. Doesn't seem far removed from the same dark underpinnings that fuel hazing

Punishments/rewards, groupthink, imposed pecking order, adherence to group (corporate) uniformity, etc. The "reward" seems to come at the other's expense, a crucial attitude in the greed based, superficial consumer culture.

[No.23]

170. Please don't mind me if I...

add some attention to a particularly insightful observation that you made:

"The 'reward' seems to come at the other's expense, a crucial attitude in the greed based, superficial consumer culture."

Abso-frickin'-lutely.

Thanks for this observation.

You echo light well.

At least in this instance.

:)

[Echo In Light]

186. Ha..well, thanks...although you sound as tho you're uncertain re some of my other views

[kjackson227]

169. Well, I'll trade you...

the "spaghetti shenanigans" anyday for our "cage fights" fiascos here in Dallas.

[DS1]

187. "challanged" ?

That's fine reporting there, Cindy.

[guitar man]

191. eh, kinda like dumping the gatorade bucket on the coach?

A little harmless fun at the end of a job well done?