"Torturing n persons is justified, because by doing so you are saving n Xs n people."

[patrice]

Aside from the fact that this sort of statment is made as an absolute statement of fact, rather than as what it is, a PREDICTION with a greater or lesser degree of PROBABILITY, there is a problem with the logic:

If one person has no value, millions of persons are only millions times no value, = 0

The only way that millions times some un-identified lack of value becomes something is if those millions of people are somesort of

FODDER

But if the foregoing is too speculative for you, here's something that is not speculative:

When the U.S. tortures people, it becomes increasingly likely that U.S. Soldiers and Troops will be tortured under any and all circumstances in which it could become possible.

Welcome to the Machine, All!

[ShortnFiery]

1. So AMERICAN lives are more important than all others?

No wonder the rest of the World considers far too many of us "UGLY Americans." :(

[patrice]

4. Apparently so. That's their logic anyway.

: - (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( . . . Xs infinity.

[patrice]

7. And what's "funny" about that is that American Lives are really only FODDER too!

Anyone who thinks that isn't true is lying to themselves.

:cry:

[YOY]

2. The "good guys" don't torture.

Pretty fucking simple. Information from torture is unreliable even if it were "justifiable".

[Deep13]

6. bingo. nt

[Odin2005]

3. Consequentialism is simply wrong. The ends NEVER justify the means.

n/t

[Deep13]

5. It's a crime. Let the grand jury convene. nt

[baldguy]

8. Also, the more we torture the more terrorists we create.

Thereby increasing the threat to our citizens, and requiring more torture to protect them.

[peace13]

9. The more we torture the more we become terrorists.

We can see it in our law officers at home already. If you survive the arrest, you just may have a day in court.

[baldguy]

11. Yes, it poisons our entire society.

Terrorists aren't human; all Muslims are terrorists, therefor Muslims aren't human.

Terrorists are criminals, terrorists aren't human, therefor criminals aren't human.

White, Christian Republicans ARE human, therefor they can't be criminals or terrorists.

Convenient, isn't it?

[arbusto_baboso]

10. Not only is all of what you said true, but here are a few more facts.

Even if torture does "work" (which is a debatable point at best), any tactically actionable intelligence gained is going to be completely useless after about 72 hours. That's just a truism of the interrogation game.

Also, America's enemies use to have no reluctance to surrender themselves to us because they figured they'd be treated humanely. If they know they're likely to be repeatedly tortured - even if they know nothing useful - they are more likely to fight to the death rather than surrender. So, turtue actually puts MORE American lives at risk.

Why is that so difficult for 'wingers to acknowledge?

[patrice]

12. Thanks for these points; i had not thought of this. nt

[Avalux]

13. "End justifies the means" mentality. It's how the Pukes roll.

I remember watching that Frontline special on Cheney and discussion of his 1% doctrine:

"if there was even a 1 percent chance of terrorists getting a weapon of mass destruction the United States must now act as if it were a certainty."

Same damn bullshit ideology.