Why do so many Americans support the use of torture?

[cali]

I don't know where the citizens of other nations stand on this, but I'm struck by the fact that the majority of Americans support torture. Certainly our culture presents competing narratives. There's the Constitution which explicitly outlaws torture and then there's the narrative that insists that what we do is inevitably the right moral action. And of course there's the fear that's been inculcated in the American psyche since 9/11. Whatever it is, Americans need a sharp slap across the face to wake it up.

[NowHearThis]

1. Ignorance, racisim, fear, mean-spiritedness and other typically

human traits.

[Echo In Light]

3. Yep. And the most effective propaganda efforts appeal to and target emotion

[peace13]

17. Ignorance was the first thing that came to my mind too. n/t

[drm604]

2. Fear, hatred, and a desire for revenge.

They believe that torture will protect them, they want revenge for 9-11, and they dislike brown people with strange religions.

The truth is that torture won't protect them, and may even make them less safe; and the vengeance is misplaced against individuals who haven't been proven guilty of anything.

Basically they're thinking with their emotions rather than their heads. I can't speak for the rest of the world but this is depressingly common in this country.

[immoderate]

29. Fear.

--imm

[KansDem]

4. It's the same mentality of those who believe that if you're arrested, you must be guilty

20 years ago I was called for jury duty. The charge against the defendant was child neglect. During deliberations, here was one member of the jury that kept saying "He's guilty; I know his kind!" even when there was some question about how thorough the evidence against him was.

I got the impression that he was one fellow who thought that if you're sitting in the defendant's chair then you must be guilty; otherwise you wouldn't be there, right?

The same way with torture. Some Americans are comfortable with it because it's only used on terrorists because if they weren't terrorists then they wouldn't be waterboarded...:crazy:

Never mind that Jimmy Carter, in his book "Our Endangered Values," quotes both US Army intel and International Red Cross statistics that state 70-90% of Iraqis rounded up by US military were innocent. Apparently, they proved their innocence after being waterboarded?

[Echo In Light]

7. Views would broaden if the M$M didn't frame all of this on JUST the waterboarding

I suspect it's easier for many to trivialize it because of that, and agree w/the right-wing rhetoric.

[librechik]

5. maybe it happened to them--abusive parents always insist they're doing right

and of course you can't contradict them


they are using a psyops on us--appealing to the folks who need a strict father to be comfortable.


We can't let them win.

[moondust]

6. Capitalist amorality runs deep.

Notably over the past 25-30 years since greed became good.

COMBINED WITH

The spread of a "winning is everything" philosophy.

[ErinBerin84]

8. my guess is that

too many people buy into the bullshit "ticking time clock" scenario. They don't look at it as a legal issue, just that torturing one person would save the lives of enough people that it would be considered morally acceptable to them. AKA, the media's inability to fact check the RW's talking points on this convinces them that 9/11 was a completely unprecedented event, that the US had no means of countering terrorism before 9/11. Also, lots of people accept the US as having moral superiority, yet think that they don't have to play by the same rules as other countries.

[Bluerthanblue]

9. denial - the inability to accept the fact that America has done

things we SHOULD be ashamed of, and which aren't 'noble, good, worthy'. IMO

Just as Pres. Obama is very clear to admit his mistakes (without justifying and excusing) I believe it comes from a healthy sense of self-worth, or self-esteem. People who don't feel ok (at their core) cannot tolerate any hint that they are anything other than 'perfect' because it's too threatening to the illusion they are struggling to maintain. This carries over to America- which is seen as an extension of 'self'.

Admitting guilt, or being wrong takes courage. imo.

[Skidmore]

10. They are too cowardly to go fight in a themselves and see it as a preventive

measure.

[demmiblue]

11. Recently (i.e. Bush terms): an increase in fear, ethnocentrism and patriarchy.

[Junkdrawer]

12. Shows like "24" reinforced the "We do it to keep America safe!" meme...

Fear is a powerful motivator. Especially when combined with ignorance.

[arbusto_baboso]

13. Our culture tends to conflate justice with vengeance.

One need only look at the popular arguments in favor of the death penalty to realize that.

[Squatch]

14. Because, in our society, moral absolutes have been replaced by moral relativisms

[Sparkly]

15. They think it "works" to get info that saves lives...

Rightwing talking point: "If waterboarding gets information that saves thousands from another attack, I'm for it." BUT IT DOESN'T!!

[arbusto_baboso]

16. Right. It actually endangers more lives.

Over the past 60 years, our enemies have never been reluctant to surrender to us because they knew they'd recieve humane treatment. If they know they'll be tortured, they'll probably fight to the death. Not a good outcome for anyone.

[miskatonic]

18. Because they wear the veil of Christ on their backs and not on their faces

Their hypocrisy is only belittled by their egos.

[closeupready]

19. I think some Americans are drunk on our incomparable military might.

And this leads to down the road named, "might makes right". And if the mighty decide they want to torture you, it's okay.

[Mr. Ected]

20. Because They Celebrate Bloodlust and Vengeance

While telling us that we've deviated from our Christian beginnings.

[Echo In Light]

21. Leonard Cohen The future

[hfojvt]

22. I think it has been the norm for much fiction

Consider a couple of movies. "Dirty Harry", circa 1975. In that movie a guy has kidnapped a young girl and is going to kill Harry until Harry stabs him in the leg. Tracking the guy down, Harry first shoots him when he is trying to surrender and then tortures the location of the girl from him.

So the movie gives you three things
1) there is a life (or lives) to save
2) the bad guys are absolutely evil
3) torture works

Then there is "Dragnet" with Tom Hanks and Dan Akroyd. They catch Emil Moz who is part of some evil organization that is planning something. How do they get the information? Do they ask nicely? No, they torture it out of him.

The average American has probably seen dozens of movies and TV shows where the good guys tortured and/or threatened information out of somebody in their custody. For another example, Moonlight, with the private investigator who is a vampire. The hero reveals himself to a prisoner, who then tells what he knows because he fears getting killed by this fanged monster.

This is the sort of torture where the prisoner "thinks" you are going to kill or seriously hurt them. It's "okay" though, because nobody really gets hurt. They just get scared into spilling their secrets. The same type of thing happens in books too. See, for example, "The Bad Place" by Dean Koontz.

[wiggs]

23. Same percentage that wants our government to attach another country and take

their oil for ourselves. nt

[CrispyQ]

24. I think there are several things at play here.

I think a lot of Americans liken torture to things like forcing bamboo shoots under fingernails & inflicting burns with lit cigarettes. Compared to that, water boarding & sleep deprivation don't sound so bad. Limbaugh enforces that belief when he claims these actions are no worse than a fraternity prank.

Also, there is a huge segment of our population that believes 'America is the good guy' so we wouldn't do something like torture. And because of the 'America is the good guy' attitude, we have a lot of people who are pissed that we were attacked on 9/11 & they simply want revenge. When you're out for revenge, you don't care so much if you got the wrong guy - someone is going to pay.

Regardless of their rationalizations, they are wrong & I cannot believe there are people - senators no less! - discussing if torture works! :grr: :grr: :grr:

[Vidar]

25. More of the rah rah mach crap that passes for masculitnity in our sick society.

[Still Sensible]

26. Really it's the RW double standard

In many cases the same people that are supporting torture are people that scream bloody murder when they see reports of enemies torturing Americans. I think this is a significant group of people that seem to think if our side is doing it, it is somehow righteous, but if "they" are doing it, it is evil.

Of course, I think there is an even bigger group spouting the RW talking points that more than anything wants to make sure their heroes--Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield, Rice, et al--don't get tarnished in the scandal. These people would much rather tarnish the country by re-defining what torture is (making sure that what their heroes did is outside that definition) than to allow the new leaders to take their predecessors to task.

The good news is that the RWers are down to their babbling core and playing so hard to that base that there is little chance they will broaden their party any time soon. Some republicans are breaking with their RW friends over the torture issue (while still trying to make sure Bushco gets off the hook).

[Davis_X_Machina]

27. It's not Americans -- It's the fundamental depravity of *mankind*.

And it's simply the mirror image of American exceptionalism (Look- we are uniquely virtuous!) to maintain that we are somehow especially vicious.

(Some large fraction of all) humans are shits. Americans are human. Therefore (Some large fraction of all) Americans are shits. QED

[baldguy]

28. Sheep believe what they're told to believe.

[kentuck]

30. "...the majority of Americans support torture" ??

Where do you get that factoid?

[Faux pas]

31. Sadists, bullies and assholes (oh my) think torture is fine as long

they aren't the ones being tortured. Some 'people' make me ashamed to be a human.

[LibertyMan12345]

32. Aggression

This really pertains to all acts of aggression...but why stop at torture? Is any aggression that is not instigated ie. not self defense valid/ethical/moral? To question aggression is to question the State/Government itself because the State is merely a monopoly on aggression. I invite anyone interested in this topic to view the following link: http://www.lewrockwell.com/kinsella/kinsella15.html


Once we realize how the State attacks and degrades our liberties covertly, gradually, continuously...and we educate enough of our population, only then will we see true Change...when we decide to demand change rather than just vote for it...I think that is what our population as a whole is so upset with our government about...the government continually is growing, year after year, unchecked, gaining power after power, pushing the limits of what it can and cannot do, interpreting and re-interpreting the Constitution as they see fit, all to increase the power/size/scope of government and to herd its "sheeple" as they see fit. That is not how our Country was set-up. Only when the population decides to truly limit its government can we put an end to these endless powers of the government such as torture. Our country did not start torturing overnight. It has been a gradual process. Slowly eroding the foundations of our Constitution to the point where it feels like it can ignore it completely and get away with it. The sad thing is, they are right. They can, have, and do get away with it. Our country has tortured/killed innocent people. It does this everyday. And we ignore it. We claim its for the betterment of us. But at what cost? Aggression is aggression. Government uses many forms, many big and pretty and flowery words for aggression. But that is all government is. It makes decisions and actions with the threat of a gun as the alternative, what a free country we live in! We can choose to be coerced or die, coerced or goto prison. Hardly free, hardly democratic, hardly moral.

What form of aggression do you endorse? Here are a few...

Property tax
Sales tax
Income tax
Non-initiated war
Bailouts
Subsidies
Torture

All are aggression and therefore I declare them all immoral/unethical. Thus all our government boils down to is a bunch of bullies. As much as we think Obama can make true change, he is fighting a losing battle. A battle that can not be won with the same policies as before. Continuing bailouts, not making the Fed be accountable for its actions, WAR. All are Same Shit Different Day. Just because Obama is Democratic does not make it right. If McCain was in office, doing exactly what Obama is doing right now, there would be outrage all across this forum. Let's educate the masses and learn from history, learn from the past. Aggression is not the answer.

whew that was long