Zero tolerance in schools, what assholes came up with this stuff?

[fumsm]

This has to be the stupidest fucking rule I have ever heard of. Scuse my french. But for Christ sake, they are ruining kids lives with expulsions and worse, destroying families through news paper reports, which are typically in accurate, for no good reason. Why in Gods name should all "mistakes" be treated equally. They are kids, but you would think they are criminals. Our politicians walk away scot free for much much worse, police cover up mistakes and move on, the kids, destroyed. I just don't get it. I'm all for punishment to fit the :issue", but that's not how it works. Our schools have become prisons, with little or no regard for the children's education. This shit has to change.

[konnichi wa]

1. If a kid were to do the stuff we did in school 50 years ago, he'd get the death penalty.

Just kidding...but barely.

[Thothmes]

10. Zero tolerance allows the responsible

officials to avoid having to make judgemental calls on those issues covered by zero tolerance. Following the policy absolves them of responsibility for their decisions.

[Davis_X_Machina]

22. Keeps them from getting sued.

No discretion equals no abuse of discretion equals no lawsuits.

School boards will do anything to minimize exposure to litigation.

[Thothmes]

28. Bingo

[Goblinmonger]

97. Do you know how hard it is to sue a school district?

ANY governmental body for that matter? It ain't easy. Don't buy into the meme of the evil lawyers and our sue-happy society.

[Pacifist Patriot]

116. It's incredibly easy to bring suit.

It may be difficult to win a case, but you can file a suit against any individual or entity at any time. I don't buy into the meme of evil lawyers (except one I know personally), but it is not difficult to find one to file a suit. I think our society may not be as litigious as Elizabethan England, but it's definitely litigious. Whether the fear is realized or not, it's held as a fear and that's what makes it a motivating factor.

[keroro gunsou]

43. zero tolerance

equals zero thinking required. one size fits all, lock'em up mentality...

thank god they didn't have that crap when i was in school... i was a problem child...

[Orsino]

54. It's also a perfect excuse for not thinking.

Thinking is, like, hard and stuff.

[ChoralScholar]

65. Wow. That's the most concise statement I've ever heard on the subject.

And 100% true.

[TheWraith]

141. BING BING BING! It also makes them look "tough" without them having to do anything...

...that would actually be effective in dealing with the real problems.

So instead we get 12 year old honor students being suspended for bringing a cake knife to class to share a cake she bought for her class, and 13 year olds being strip searched on the suspicion that they may be concealing over-the-counter strength Ibuprofen.

[closeupready]

149. I never thought about that, but you're right.

Good insight.

[B3Nut]

160. It also absolves the intellectually incompetent

of the arduous task of actually having to think.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

[XemaSab]

35. I understand that back in the day they used to have MARKSMANSHIP

Yes, shooting guns. In school.

[Cid_B]

56. Mine still did...

High School and College...

[The Doctor.]

58. I was on rifle team.

The range was in the basement, so were the rifles.

[ChoralScholar]

67. We have a shooting team - sponsored by our School Resource Officer

who is an expert marksman in his own right.

[kath]

204. I friggin' HATE that term "Resource Officer" - call it what it is, dammit - the SCHOOL COP.

Very prevalent in very safe, upper-middle-class communities. What a friggin waste of $$ - but a VERY effective way to get the younguns acclimated to living in a police state...

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

106. My HS had it up through the '80s

The basement of the school is all rifle ranges. The only reason they ended it is the coach got accidentally shot.

[konnichi wa]

156. Yep, rifles and shotguns too (intramural skeet shooting)

hell, we made nitroglycerin in the chem lab, put KMNO3 in the swimming pool (not dangerous but real scary looking :rofl:)...drove cars in the hallways...and this was not some boondock school, it was a very very prestigious public school with over 85 pct. of graduates going on to college, many on scholastic scholarships.

[Baclava]

207. OK - I admit - I set fire to the chemistry lab

Who knew those solid phosphorus sticks we found in jars all covered in oil would burn under water in the sink?

I chalk it up to youthful exuberance.

[mitchum]

2. Y'know, most rants have specifics (or something like that)

[The Straight Story]

5. So do most replies

:rofl: sorry, could not help myself ;)

[The Straight Story]

3. You want to know what is really messed up in all this?

The rw blames the lw for it, and the lw blames the rw for it.

Who the hell is really behind it all because I don't know anyone on the RW or LW for such things?

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. State legislatures are behind it

And both parties were involved when these ZT policies became law.

[The Straight Story]

8. And that actually says a lot

about the state of politics and the US today.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. It says that passing laws as a reaction to high profile events, like school shootings

generally gets you bad laws.

[NeedleCast]

9. Little bit of both, bust mostly school boards looking to cover their asses

[fumsm]

17. I think you are closest to the answer

Schools don't want to deal with anything anymore. Our kids spend most their days with teachers, but their not responsible any longer. They don't want involved, school officials don't want to deal with it. We now have police in our suburban school. And it is locked down tight. They expel kids for smoking, expelled. Tough luck kid, your on your own now. Ohh, by the way, because the police are involved in everything, you also get a fine plus court cost. Two kids in a brief brawl, 3 days suspension, ok, I'm good with that, but also a $150.00 fine to cover police and court cost. WTF?? And, by the way, it will be in the local paper too. I would have never made it past sixth grade.

But, it was ok for a police officer to use an 11 year old forum, unauthorized, to speak out about the discontinuation of the d.a.r.e. program and rally support (11 yr olds folks) to save the program. Oh, by the way, he was also running for local district judge today. Called the press and everything. In addition, he read a newspaper article out loud about a big drug bust at the local high school a month ago, calling out the names of the kids involved. There was an innocent 11 year old relative in the audience, who he then paraded up on stage to give her a dare certificate. She was devastated. In the end, the drug bust was a bust, there were no drugs involved, only some paper that they said could have contained a drug, but none was present. The kid with the so-called drug was expelled, with no evidence, 12 days before gradation. Zero tolerance stated as reason. Police officer had access to this info, but disregarded it to strengthen his case.

Police troll the student parking lot, looking in vehicles. If they see a lighter, or cellophane that they think may be from a cigarette pack, they bring in the dogs, tear the car apart, tear the students locker apart, and throw them out of school. So if I use my kids car, and leave a lighter or cigs in it, hes cooked. Zero tolerance. Shall I go on Mitchem?

[maynard]

40. Districts do not want another Columbine

Districts have to have a Zero Tolerance policy due to the reactions they would have if another Columbine occurred. I can hear it now, " Why didn't they do something before this happened?" "Why didn't they see these kids had problems?" This is a proactive approach. I could tell you stories that would make your skin crawl. I can't due to privacy clauses. If the media gets a hold of the story it is because parents and other students are talking...

[fumsm]

101. Yea, there were no clues ahead of time, right?

Do you even know what actually occured or do you just live in the republican fear climate?

[Seldona]

155. You are assuming zero tolerance will address those issues.

They will not. Unless you are fine with them throwing anyone who has had any issues under the bus to cover their asses. That is pathetic.

[Aragorn]

55. Sounds typical

around E Texas. What state/area was this in?

[ChoralScholar]

69. Cellophane.... hehe

Someone should buy a lot of decks of cards, and leave the cellophane wrappers in the car. :)

[NeedleCast]

139. An Excellent Summary

It makes me pity kids in school these days. There were fights in my high school. I was involved in one (and only one). I was the "defender" in the fight, so I got a one day suspension and the other kid got three for starting it. There were kids that smoked (I was one of them sometimes), kids that did drugs, kids that committed petty crimes...and few if any of them ever got expelled...and in the long run, even with all these "horrible" distractions around us, the vast majority of us managed to graduate.

High school - between acedemics, sports and worrying about the future, your clothes, your hair, your pimples, your girlfriend/boyfriend (or lack of one) and everything else - has enough stress without these idiotic zero tolerance policies. Most of which have been put in place by busy-body types, looking to create some sort of utopian environment.

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. No. ZT is a state law.

School boards have no recourse, and have to abide by state laws.

[NeedleCast]

140. Thanks for the correction

Is this just in Kansas, or does it include most or all states? Are schools in states without ZT state laws able to introduce them locally?

[proud2BlibKansan]

158. I am not sure

I teach in MO and it's state law there and in most states as well. There are also federal safe schools regulations that all school districts have to abide by.

The important point is we can't blame districts or schools for ZT policies. They have to follow the laws just like the rest of us do.

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. It is a law in most states

Following the school shootings in the late 90s, states enacted zero tolerance laws to address school violence.

Schools are bound to the law.

So if you want change, contact your state legislature.

[paulsby]

136. kneejerk legislation... see lori meiers etc

kneejerk legislation is almost always stupid and harmful and rights encroaching.

moreso when it's done "for the children"

[rug]

7. An assistant principal in our high school got a DUI and was transferred to the elementary school.

Zero tolerance my ass.

[mitchum]

11. Was he driving on school grounds during school hours?

I think that drunk drivers are scumfucks, but I don't see the perceived hypocrisy.

[rug]

15. Kids have been expelled for drinking outside of school. It is a hypocritical policy.

If you get a student parking permit, you are giving consent to the school police to search your vehicle. If you are found inside school with an aspirin you can be suspended. If they find it in your car you can be suspended. If you keep midol in your purse over the weekend and forget to take it out before you go to school you can be suspended. They don't care why it was there - zero trolerance.

The assistant principal was also the D.A.R.E. coordinator. He's still in the schools.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. ZT applies to kids, not adults

[rug]

44. Not entirely. The entire campus is tobacco-free for everybody.

But the post was about the hypocrisy of zero-tolerance, not who it applied to.

Every student in that school knows what happened. It makes the weekly announcement of the number of expulsions hollow.

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. Are the adults expelled for smoking?

Somehow I doubt it.

[Mythsaje]

12. What it comes down to is that our schools have become

clearinghouses to create good little worker drones who follow the rules and don't make waves. ZT is a great way to help that along.

[Aragorn]

57. ding ding sing!

You are correct!

[aikoaiko]

13. Zero tolerance policies are one of the reasons I'm planning on sending my kid to private schools

I grew up in good public schools, but they are an alternative universe away from the schools where I reside now.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. Check your state laws

In some states, ZT policies apply to ALL schools, not just public schools.

[ShadowLiberal]

14. The problem is too many people enforcing it lack common sense

Seriously, they've expelled kids for bringing in a nail filer to school! Why, because it's a dangerous weapon you could use to kill someone of course! Forget the fact that if you tried to use something small and stupid like a nail filer to fight someone that it would just turn into a fist fight where the nail filer wouldn't be a factor, because... you can still throw a nail filer at someone's eyes!

[ejpoeta]

16. it's easier than knowing the kids in the school and knowing what kind of kids they are.

maybe noticing who they are hanging around with and stuff. but it is also because parents will come in and yell at the school officials for things. i know when i was a kid, if i did something wrong or got in trouble no one tried to make excuses for me. but the teachers and principal knew me and my family and would generally make decisions based on my individual situation. though, i only got in trouble twice in my whole life for fighting... which i didn't start... but both me and the girl i was fighting got in trouble and in school suspension.

i personally think they have gone too far in the interest of better safe than sorry, i guess. but the bullies still seem to be perfectly able to be bullies without a problem. knowing the students and trying to take care of things before they get to a point that could be a problem would be better... but unfortunately there aren't enough teachers and schools are too busy practicing for tests to worry about anything else.

[fumsm]

18. Ahh, bullies, thats ok in school

We just had a 13 yr old girl commit suicide due to school bullying, but I feel better now because the school just now is putting together a "bullying task force". Better to concentrate on them damn smokers. Assholes.

[paulsby]

137. and kneejerk legislation against bullies

is also problematic.

laws against assault, threats, etc.?

fine. they already exist.

laws against bullying (so called) are often overbroad, arguably unconstitutional, etc.

any time you enact overbroad legislation you cede power to the govt. to have wide discretion in prosecution, detention, punitive, administrative action.

the best thing for a bully is a punch in the nose.

in our ridiculous school atmosphere now, (at leaset where i work), the schools punish the VICTIM if he defends himself as well.

that's "zero tolerance" of violence.

fwiw, as a cop i can consider self defense and not arrest/cite in those circumstances.

schools can't. any violence = suspension/expulsion, even in self defense.

that is colossally stupid. and why shouldn't kids have the same right of self defense that adults have? it's about as sacred a right as we have. the right to defend yourself.

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. These policies are the result of state laws

In my state, we are given a very detailed description of what is a weapon and what is not. And a nail file with a point on the end is a weapon.

[Posteritatis]

148. Zero tolerance rules forbid common sense. (nt)

[proud2BlibKansan]

159. Not always

I think ZT policies forbidding weapons are common sense.

[Pacifist Patriot]

165. Yes, but do you think suspending a teenage girl for a week for having a...

nail file in her locker is exercising common sense?

What about the kid in one of my examples elsewhere in this thread. A senior in high school was denied the right to graduate with his class because a cake knife was spotted in his car when he was leaving the graduation rehearsal. A cake knife. His mom had inadvertently left in her car.

I think not tolerating weapons is a great idea too. But it still comes down to someone having to decide what constitutes a weapon and what does not. Zero tolerance policies cast an extraordinarily wide net and are generally accompanied by draconian consequences.

[proud2BlibKansan]

173. It depends on what the laws say that mandate these ZT policies

It could be that principals risk losing their job if they fail to enforce the policy. That's how it works where I teach. Some of us are willing to overlook silly things like a cake knife in a car. But we do risk a lot by doing so. If one other kid knows that knife is there and knows a teacher or principal also knows and didn't do anything, career over.

Your battle is with the state legislature that passed the law, not with the schools.

[Pacifist Patriot]

186. No, your opinion of what constitutes reasonable does not depend upon what the laws say.

[proud2BlibKansan]

190. The laws in my state are very specific

We even get a list of weapons that we have to report. It's not about what seems reasonable. Some teachers and a few principals are willing to ignore the law and not report the kids (depending on the kid and the circumstances of course) but the majority of professionals in education are very law abiding and will report that weapon regardless of the circumstances.

[Posteritatis]

172. Until they expel kids for having pictures of weapons

Or half-centimeter GI Joe toy guns. Both have happened enough that I don't connect either to a specific incident.

Or when they expel kids for having an asthma inhaler or things along those lines. Or when they expel kids for getting punched, or even for shaking hands.

[proud2BlibKansan]

174. We had a kid last year who drew pictures of guns

and wrote threats to other kids on the pictures. He was suspended for drawing pictures of guns. But if he hadn't included the threats, I doubt his teacher would have bothered to turn him in to administration.

And his mother complained that he was suspended for drawing a picture of a gun.

It helps to know all the details, which are often left out of stories like this.

[Mari333]

19. song we sang on the playground in 1957

'GLORY GLORY HALLELUJAH
TEACHER HIT ME WITH A RULAH
I KNOCKED HER IN THE BEAN WITH A ROTTEN TANGERINE
THE SCHOOL GOES MARCHING ON
OH MINE EYES HAVE SEEN THE GLORY OF THE BURNING OF THE SCHOOL
WE HAVE CAPTURED EVERY TEACHER
WE HAVE BROKEN EVERY RULE
WE HAVE KILLED THE SUPERINTENDENT
AND WE HUNG THE PRINCIPAL
THE SCHOOL GOES MARCHING ONNNN'

we would be put into GITMO now for singing that.

back then no one cared.

[XemaSab]

38. We sang the same song in 1985

:toast:

[ChoralScholar]

73. our version talked about a 'loaded .44' - kinda creepy when I look back

but in 1983 it all seemed a lot more innocent.

[Pacifist Patriot]

112. Remember this and too true.

[juno jones]

169. I would love to see a write-up on children's culture.

We pass these things on to each other over generations...with a few changes of word, We were singing that song in 1972 and I doubt it ended with the DU'ers who recollect it in the '80's. It seems to be ubiquitous, we all partake of it. With only a bit of prodding, we could all remember the words and jokes today.

Ring Around the Rosie- now that's a children's meme with some legs.

[JuniperLea]

187. We sang the same one in 1967... except...

We hid behind the door with a loaded .44
That teacher don't teach no more!

Problem is, the .44 goes to school for real these days.

[alphafemale]

200. We "met her at the door with a trusty .44"

"And we haven't see the old whore since!"

4th grade would have been about 1975.

I don't know that we actually sang that song within earshot of adults though.

:rofl:

[ixion]

20. yeah, I thought it was rough back in the 70's... that was nothing

I'd hate to be going through today's school system.

[Paul_D]

21. Zero tolerance usually equals

zero intelligence. They don't want to be held responsible for their decisions so they leave it to a law to decide that a student with a knife to cut fruit is the same offense as someone carrying a machete. I had a pocket knife I carried on a daily basis through high school, and it today it would cause someone to stroke out. Just recently, a girl was removed from school on the zero tolerance policy over a dummy rifle in her car that she used for school sponsored activities. How does that happen?

[Davis_X_Machina]

23. Fear of lawsuits.

No discretion > no abuse of discretion > no lawsuits.

The aversion of school boards to lawsuits knows no bounds.

[fumsm]

24. I'm sorry, teachers in my school district make up 85k/yr

3 months vacation, free health care and gobs of vacation to be taken during the school year. they work approx 6.5 hrs per day, not all classroom time, and mega holidays, spring break, etc. They'll stand out in the snow and picket till the cows come home to get want they want, but don't ask them to go beyond reading out of the same f'ing book year after year. Not there problem, parents should take care of it at home. Bastards....

[MichiganVote]

25. 85k, if accurate is the exception, not the rule. And the use of their, there and they're

was taught to you at one time by a teacher. If you missed that lesson, you probably missed some others.

Such as...not every school, teacher or administrator lives and dies by zero tolerance policies.

[mitchum]

41. Methinks that some teachers didn't agree with the poster's delusions about his genius...

hence the hostility

[MichiganVote]

189. Hostility breeds hostility anywhere, anytime.

[Rage for Order]

27. ZOMG!1!! Are you series??/?

Eye'm with you. Those dam teechers are bastards. Stupid teechers' union!!!1!

:eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. Where the hell do you live?

I'm moving there. Principals in my district don't make $85K a year. And we are one of the highest paid districts in our area.

The three month vacation is a myth. Teachers go to school or teach summer school. They don't get 3 months off. I already know that I have to work 2 weeks this summer, as I am mandated to take training, for which I am receiving no pay. And I am teaching summer school. One of the weeks I am in training is while summer school is still in session. I don't get to earn summer school money that week and have to find my own sub to take my class while I am in training.

I get 4 days in June and 2 weeks in August off. That's my summer.

My health care is not free and rather expensive compared to my friends who work in the business world. And I pay $50 for prescriptions.

I don't get gobs of vacation time either. 8 days at Christmas and 5 days in the spring. That's far from gobs.

I wish I had a 6.5 hour work day. Only in my dreams. I am typically at school for 2 hours before and after the hours the kids are there. Once I add on the time I spend on school work at home, I am averaging a 10 hour day.

I have never once picketed in the snow.

I don't have time to read books.

I would be thrilled to have more parents who are willing to work with their kids at home. Or maybe take them to the zoo or a museum once in awhile. Just turning off the video games and making them read a book would be nice.

I would also gladly let you do my job for a day. Then you can tell me how easy it is and how I have it made. If you can last a day.

on edit: Forgot to mention that we no longer get money for classroom supplies. So I have to buy my own. I have yet to know of any other occupation where the employees have to buy their own office supplies. So if your kid doesn't have a pencil or a notebook, that comes out of my pocket.

Yep, real dream job. :eyes:

[raccoon]

59. Maybe the other poster lives in Alaska?

My hat's off to you guys and gals courageous enough to teach in the public schools. :toast:

[fumsm]

91. Then your getting screwed

I live in Pittsburgh. Teachers, two of them are my neighbors, are off 3 months, thank you, have FREE health care, as negotiated in last years contract, start work at 7:34 and they are home at 2:30. As far as doing your job, no problem, I;ll trade you in a minute. I work in the auto industry, sales of equipment. You wouldn't last 5 seconds in my job, not to mention the constant stress of management saying we are closing everyday due to lack of business and no sales. I travel 5 days a week, away from my family, live in hotels and my car, eat terrible food, fish in empty ponds. Pretty humiliating. Company only pays 605 of my health care, and they discontinued dental. No pension, as our teachers have, no union to protect us. YOU SHOULD BE GLAD YOU HAVE WHAT YOU HAVE, IT IS CONSIDERABLY MORE THAN THE REST OF US. If only teachers weren't so selfish and cared more about the kids, I would be more understanding, but our teachers only care about their pay and perks, they could care less about the kids, and that a fact!

[proud2BlibKansan]

161. How do you know what time they are home if you have a job too?

Do you spy on all your neighbors or just the ones who teach school?

Their work day is too short to meet the requirements for length of school day in every state I know of. Unless PA has a much shorter school day than most states, you are making that shit up.

No one gets free health care. How much do they pay for prescriptions and appointments? ER visits? I doubt they are free.

Why in the world would I want your job? It sounds like you aren't too happy with it.

I am happy with my job. And I am GLAD to have it. I just resent very much when angry people like you post bullshit about teaching being such an easy job on this discussion board.

Had you paid attention in school and gone on to college and earned a degree in education, you too could teach. I am sure somewhere in your past there is a teacher (probably several) who wishes still they could have done a better job of inspiring you. Because the teachers I know love kids and their pay and 'perks' have absolutely nothing to do with why they chose teaching as a career.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[reggie the dog]

126. shouldn't everyone have

good pay, lots of vacation, and free health care?

also your neighbors spend hours at home preparing their lessons and correcting homework and tests.

[mitchum]

138. You work in sales in a DYING industry, but I'm the loser?

Okay, whatever you say...Mr Bitter

[LostInAnomie]

46. Hahaha... I doubt it.

The starting salary for a teacher in my district is $28k. The highest paid teacher (with 42 years in and a Masters) gets $58k.

They have to pay for their insurance (which is horrible).

They can't picket "till the cows come home", because going on strike is against the law for teachers in my state.

They can't read out of the same "f'ing book year after year" because: 1. They get new books 2. The state makes new standards every year, which means the teachers actually have to make new lessons for each year.

Your whole post is ridiculous.

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. Just another teacher basher

who isn't brave enough to defend his idiotic comments. Wish I could say I was surprised but I am getting used to it here.

[whopis01]

205. He is right about the salaries

The highest paid teachers in Pittsburgh are making over $90k. In North Allegheny county, they average $66,138.

You can even look them all up here:

http://php.app.com/PAteachers0607/search.php

(If this link works, it takes you to the Allegheny county returns, sorted by salary)
http://php.app.com/PAteachers0607/results.php?pageNum_Recordset1=0&totalRows_Recordset1=14733&County=Allegheny&LEAName=%25&LastName=&FirstName=&CertificatedAssignment1Desc=%25&EducationLevelDescription=%25&tfm_order=DESC&tfm_orderby=Salary

[seabeyond]

53. are you really so ignorant on the subject or do you just make things up for argument?

two examples of your posts, this and the op clearly show that in argument you refuse to do it in honest. why should anyone take you or your posts seriously?

[fumsm]

98. Oh, sorry, I forgot, we are here for the teachers,

not the teachers are here for our kids. It is more important that teachers have cushy high paying jobs,with lots of perks, but no responsibility, thats up to the "children" and the parents, right?

I realize there are lots of good teachers out there, but there are equally as many bad ones, only in it for themselves. LET'S SEE, NEW CONTRACT THIS YEAR:
-STAYED OUT FOR THREE MONTHS PICKETING
-REFUSED TO NEGOTIATE
-DEMANDED 7.5% INCREASE PER YEAR, RETROACTIVE TWO YEARS THEY WENT WITHOUT CONTRACT
-TOTALLY FREE HEALTH CARE
-TONS OF VACATION (WHY SHOULD A TEACHER GET VACATION IN THE MIDDLE OF THE YEAR WHEN THEY ARE OFF ALL SUMMER?)
-PENSION
-401K -MATCH 50%
-starting salary $45k/yr
Does this sound reasonable in todays times????

They showed they were only concerned for themselves, not the taxpayers, not the kids, themselves.

[reggie the dog]

127. what would you have the teachers do

while the students are on winter or spring break?

unions refusing to negotiate in order to win concessions for the workers they represent is a good thing

retroactive raises mean that they should have got a cost of living raise of 2 to 3 percent a year but did not so they got 7.5 all at once

free health care is something that should be for everyone with the government running the show

pension should also be for everybody

lots of vacation and starting pay at 45 000 (for someone with an MA in Chicago it would be 55 000) but at any rate what should someone with a masters degree not have a lot of vacation if they only make 55 000 a year considering the salaries of most people that get masters. Student loans have to be repaid. Also do not forget that teachers put in much more than 40 hours a week. We teach around 20 to 25 hours a week and then easily do an hour and a half prep and grading for every hour of class we give, so we work 50 hours a week, which would mean 2 of our 3 months vacation are really just time off for overtime we have already done.

perfectly reasonalbe.

I taught in Chicago for one year and had students who ran gangs extort grades, complete with taking photos of my truck and telling me my address. The shit you put up with teaching in schools where over half the kids drop out is highly stressing.

45 000 is a LOW starting salary.

[Stuckinthebush]

61. Yeah, those damn teachers!

Such cushy jobs! All they have to do is tell the kids to shut up and sit down and do the math sheet.

Jerks.

Making great money and always complaining. It don't take no kind of smarts to be a teacher.

Oh yeah, and the gobs of vacation. Jeez. I wish I had that kind of vacation. Christmas, easter, good friday, and MLK day. Bastards.

Don't forget the summers either. THey just lay around on their fat asses eating bon bons all summer. I'd kill for that.

I can't stand those damn teachers.

:sarcasm:

As a teacher of teachers I can tell you that your post displays a high level of ignorance about the profession. I am hoping that it was sarcasm.

[seabeyond]

62. seeing how little specifics are in the op post, i wonder if it isnt his kid disrupting

fighting, causing problems and got kick out of school in a no tolerance rule. may be the typical parent blaming the school for his childs poor behavior due to poor parenting.

[Stuckinthebush]

64. Perhaps

I'm going to print out his/her rant and read it to my class of teachers and principals in two weeks. They'll get a kick out of it.

I'm sure I can use this as a tool for discussing public perceptions of the profession. 85K? All of my students will want to move to that district.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

110. there is an argument chalk full of specifics and clarification. n/t

[konnichi wa]

184. chock full

;-)

[seabeyond]

185. lol, thank you. you know what bush and i have in common?

only one thing....

geez, i cant get sayings right.

[Stuckinthebush]

118. Yes I am

Thanks

[fumsm]

100. Ohh, pity the teachers! They have it so rough!

[seabeyond]

113. trying to educate our kids whose parents coddle and dont support them

in their childrens education not to mention behavorial problems? yes. very good. glad you get it. the teachers do have it "rough".

[fumsm]

119. So, 100% of the parents are idiots

And 100% of the teachers and school boards are wonderful. I get it. Good republican values.

[seabeyond]

121. no, not 100% parents of kids are idiots. not even close to 100% kids have troubles in school

it is a small percentage of kids that have the behavorial problems in school. it is the majority that suffer because of the minority. so to the point, the majority of parents are parenting.

no not all teachers are good. but in two kids experience of a decade there has been one bad teacher. i will take those odds. and the one class where it was a bad teacher my son had the responsiblity to learn, regardless. that is the parent putting education as priority, not winning a pissing contest

[Stuckinthebush]

122. I have a great idea

There are always pots of grant money available for people to become teachers. I know of many alternative masters programs that allow people from outside the teaching profession to go back to school to get their certification.

I think it would be great for you to do that. 85K and a hell of an easy job. Great vacation. It sounds like you feel that teachers should care for kids and I'm assuming you do, so that would make the profession a great choice for you. No more worrying about layoffs in your field either.

I say go for it.

[reggie the dog]

128. of course we do

kids like your kids who have no respect for teachers make our job hell and keep other kids from learning.

[Yupster]

103. The best benefit teachers get

is their pension plan.

In my area they are not even in social security. Instead they pay into their own much better plan. So much for universal programs.

[proud2BlibKansan]

182. I pay into SS

and will have a better retirement income than teachers in my state who don't pay SS.

[Yupster]

188. Sure not how it is in Texas

In Texas the TRS formula is

experience times 2.3 equals percent pay.

So let's say that you were a 58 year old teacher who has worked 34 years as a teacher and your last three years pay averaged $ 60,000.

Your formula would be


exp x 2.3 = % pay

34 X 2.3 = 78 %

78 % of $ 60,000 is $ 46,800

So you'd get $ 46,800 per year for the reast of your life.

* A note - the system was recently changed to make it less favorable to new teachers. It's now the average of top five years pay instead of top three years pay. Only for young teachers though. It wouldn'tchange the numbers for our 58 year old.

___________________________________________________________________

Now let's say you were a welder who also was 58 and had worked 34 years at his/her job and the last three year's pay averaged $ 60,000.

Your social security would be about $ 19,200 a year.

But there's a catch. You social security wouldn't start until age 62. The teacher would start his/her TRS at age 58.

_____________________________________________________________________________________

There isn't any question which system is better. It's not even a close call. Is your state that different? Tell me the state and I can plug in the formula for you.

_____________________________________________________________________________________

It would sure take a huge burden off ofsocial security if teachers who are currently not in it were forced into the system. That and removing the cap on earnings ae the two changes would recommend just for fairness sake if nothing else.

1. Why should you not pay FICA on your second hundred thousand of income? Makes no sennse.
2. Why should everyone be in the system except many teachers. Makes no sense.

[proud2BlibKansan]

191. I do have to wait until I am 62 to get my SS

My retirement is about 40% of my pay. Then SS on top of that and I am not too far from what I was earning when I retired.

[Yupster]

192. I was comparing teachers

who pay the same percentage of their income into their defined benefit plan instead of social security to other workers who pay the same percentage into social security. Though they both pay the same amount, the teachrs get a vastly greater benefit.

If you have a defined benefit plan and social security too, then obviously you'd have the best of both worlds. Congratulations. Not many companies have defined benefit plans anymore. Mostly they are for government workers only. So you are a rare bird. Glad you're doing well in retirement/

[proud2BlibKansan]

193. I haven't retired yet; I can't afford it

Health insurance. It will eat up most of my retirement check.

[Yupster]

197. Too bad you're not a Texas teacher

in addition to the pension, you'd also be eligible for TRSCare, the teacher's health insurance plan.

[reggie the dog]

124. class prep and corrections

do you have any idea how much time we spend preparing lessons and grading homework and tests?

[seabeyond]

125. at my kids middle school, they have after school and before school tutoring

for the children that need it, because school is hard for them, or because they are lazy, or because they refuse to do.

and do you know how many parents bitch because the school goes beyond, giving one on one attention to these kids cause they need it. parents get pissed that they have to shift their schedule for their childrens education

[reggie the dog]

144. parents like that drive me crazy

here in France the teachers do not give after school help and I think it is a scandal. I talk to other teachers here where teachers only have to stay in the building for the 18 hours a week they teach and they do not want to go to the 35 hours in the building 18 teaching with 5 hours for helping students and 10 hours to for corrections even if they got a raise of 50 percent to put them on par with US teachers. Very few teachers like my idea but I think it would really help kids out and I thought that would please parents, but I guess some parents are just too self centered to give a damn about their kids.

[mitchum]

178. Wonderful...anti-union AND anti-public education horseshit on a Democratic board

What next?

[proud2BlibKansan]

179. Here is a list of teacher salaries from the Pittsburgh area

http://www.wpxi.com/education/14415301/detail.html

It is from 2 years ago and no one is earning anywhere near $85K a year. Raises for teachers are typically 2 or 3% a year. Figure that in and you are still about $25K short of $85K.

So you are either making that up or someone lied to you.

[Catshrink]

206. That is such bullshit

6.5 hours a day???? What are you thinking? My guess is that you have no clue what these teachers do. You've spouted all the standard myths about teachers and anyone who knows anything about the teaching profession, either from actually doing the job or living with a teacher, knows these myts are untrue.

This is the life of a teacher. My salary isn't even half of those you mention (BTW, is that the salary? Salary + benefit cost?). I take home at least four hours of work a day -- I have papers to grade, lessons to plan, and reports to write. I must serve on committees for my district and sponsor clubs.

Vacation during the school year? Again, what are you talking about? We have no "vacation" time. We do get 2-3 personal days that can be used for funerals, business activities (like closing on a house), etc., but not for "fun" stuff like baseball games or family vacations. We also get about 8 sick days. That's it. Of course, we get the time off at Christmas -- but we spend time then reading final exams, essays, and finalizing grades -- and lesson planning, reflecting on what worked and what didn't over the semester, reading, sleeping, and recuperating.

Reading out of the same book every year? Hardly. We don't use textbooks. Our lessons are prepared and tweaked each year based on the student population. Some years, my kids' math skill suck so I need to teach math before I can teach science while other years they are stronger so I can do more advanced lessons. All this and keeping up on the latest pedagogy and updates in the field.

The 3 months of summer vacation is also bullshit. No, I don't have to be in front of students but I use that time for professional development and planning. And recuperating. The 16 hour days during the school year take their toll. I also use it do the stuff around the house that never gets done during the school year because I'm either just too tired or don't have time (fix the leaky toilet, replace a blind, tear out the ugly hedge, etc.).

Notice there's a lot of time spent planning. A good teacher makes it look easy and seamless. In fact, it's damn hard work that requires 1-3 hours of preparation for each hour spent teaching.

So, you think teaching is easy? You think it's a piece of cake? I have news for you. Try being in front of a class of 30-40 kids, keeping their attention, keeping them on task, and actually trying to engage them in a learning activity. Do that 6 hours a day. It's both exhausting and exhilarating at the same time. And try it having admins and parents breathing down your neck about why little Joanna who doesn't give a rat's ass about anything but texting her friends is failing your class.

Somewhere along the line, you've obviously had a bad experience with a teacher or teachers. Now you generalize that experience to all teachers. Don't brand the whole profession because of what you perceive to be a few bad apples. (I'd like to hear their side of the story.)

[depakid]

26. Welcome to Reagan's America

It started with the Reagan Administration's so called war on drugs- and the incident that began it all involved the seizure of a vessel due to a crew member having a roach on board.

[maynard]

34. Try substituting in a middle school for a six to nine week stint

....you will change your tune very quickly. I teach Middle school and have an average of 40 kids per class. Not everyone is an angel. I have had things thrown at my face/head. I have been physically attacked by a student. Kids that are subjected to Zero Tolerance are the ones with chronic behavior problems. They are the ones with a long history of behavior issues. I go in an hour earlier than required. I stay after school, tutoring, doing clubs for kids, preparing for class, grading papers. I come home to grade papers and prepare or my class. I have to work a second job during the summer. I am required to consistently take classes to keep my job. After 30 years of teaching, I am still looking for the great life you think I have. Come and be on the front lines of the educational system and then convince me that teachers have a great life.


Unless you are dealing with the zero tolerance kids, you have no idea......We get criticized for not teaching and yet we have to deal with consistent behavior disruptions in the class. Come and substitute and then you can tell school districts how to run things in an orderly manner.

[XemaSab]

42. My cousin got suspended from high school

for having a water bottle.

Why? She may have poured vodka in the bottle. :eyes:

She has since gone on to get straight A's at a UC.

[seabeyond]

50. like i would ever believe a child got suspended for what bottle.... only.

i would be finding out the rest of the story.

[Pacifist Patriot]

66. Considering what I have seen in my school system it really wouldn't surprise me.

Teenagers have to take a beeper on a timer with them to the bathroom for heaven's sake. And yes, students may not have water bottles or any thing that can contain anything else on campus. If you are found with a water bottle you're out for the rest of the day and the next. Doesn't matter what is in it, if anything. Gone. No questions asked.

[seabeyond]

72. why do the children have to have a beeper? why did the kid have a water bottle IF rule is

no water bottle? the child that gets kicked out for having a water bottle when rule is no water bottle is the one in the wrong. not the school. that they have kids sneaking in booze in water bottles to school and have to have a rule no water bottle does not say anything about the school but the children and the parenting of these children. put the blame where it belongs. one thing i NEVER do with my children is allow them to blame someone else for their poor choices or their punishment for the poor choices

you know what happens when parent puts it on the kids shoulders? they think things thru. they know they wont have the parent fixing things, backing them up, getting them out of trouble

who the hell would bitch at a school when the child broke the rule. bitch at the child

beeper to bathroom, we know why they have to have a friggin beeper in the bathroom. it is not because the teachers are misbehaving.

we give the children outs all over the place. continually making them victims. no wonder kids cant make it a step or two in front of themselves today on their own

[Pacifist Patriot]

75. I agree that a child breaking the no water bottle rule is in the wrong.

Do you think the first transgression warrants suspension? I suppose some people might. Then again, maybe an essay on why the rule exists might be a place to start in terms of discipline.

I question the legitimacy of the rule in the first place, but then I have more faith in children and recognize that many people are not as supportive.

The beeper is a timer that goes off after a set time limit. The timer goes off in the classroom and the bathroom. I would think that create potential for unnecessary disruption in the class. Sad commentary on our society that teenagers are treated in such a manner as a matter of course. From what the teachers in the school told me, there really was no call for the measure when it was instituted. They knew which kids abused the privilege of being excused to the bathroom and which didn't. Even the teachers think it is humiliating and absolutely ridiculous for the vast majority of their students. They resent having to give the thing to kids they know legitimately have to use the bathroom.

You know, if we expect the worst from our kids I suspect that is what they are going to give us.

[seabeyond]

79. do you know any of the specifics of the water bottle. first time? how do you know

consistent behavior problems? we dont know. there is nothing about the water bottle story that we know, but that she had it and was suspended. my post stated that i would have to know a hell of a lot more before i got mad at the school. having spent the time in the schools and around the children, i tend to not ASSUME that they are innocent and the adult is being outrageous.

[Pacifist Patriot]

82. My comment wasn't to confirm the original story. I merely added my comments because...

it wouldn't surprise me as it is a rule in our school system and the disciplinary measure for first infraction of the rule is suspension for the rest of the day and the next school day. There probably is more to the story, but it just didn't jump out at me as utterly illogical or improbable because that is precisely what would happen here.

[seabeyond]

84. who cares? what the circumstances or situation. the rule clearly states.... you state it.

what the hell is the kid taking a bottle into school then. that is it. suspend rest of day, and next day. stupid kid. got exactly what she was suppose to get.

[Pacifist Patriot]

86. I am not sure why you are arguing with me on this point.

The person claims a student was suspended for a water bottle. I agreed that this was a possibility because my school system has the same rule.

Just because I think it is a silly rule doesn't mean I think the child should be excused for breaking it.

I have already said that if a child knows a rule and breaks it than he or she must face the prescribed consequences. Doesn't matter if I think it is a stupid rule or not.

[reggie the dog]

130. the rule is stupid

the kids bring water because they are thirsty

[seabeyond]

132. we dont have the rule in our school. i have not seen this rule in any of the schools

there are also a lot of water fountains. we made it thru school without water bottles. kids bring booze in the bottles. so there is a problem. there is a problem with dehydration for kids in school, so i educate my children on this and the need for them to hydrate regularly, which they are able to do with the many, well placed drinking fountains.

[GreenArrow]

194. yeah, stupid kid.

How dare her not bleat on demand.

It's an asinine rule enacted by unimaginative idiots and does nothing but breed disrespect for authority, primarily because rules like that are fundamentally disrespectful and patronizing.

[seabeyond]

198. bullshit. never before jsut recent did kids bring bottles to school. always before a fountain

worked just fine. not the end of the world if a kid doesnt have a bottle. there were times my kids could and times they couldnt. SOOOOO not an issue. and the rule there, you follow, if you chose to break you suffer repercussion. i break plenty. i also think about whether i want to pay the price. she wanted to break rule, she pays the price. must have been worth it to her. if not, a lesson. that is always good.

like it is a kids "right" to have a bottle.

[GreenArrow]

203. it's a stupid, trivial rule

and, one that, I repeat, does little more than create disrespect and contempt for more reasonable and serious rules.

That being said, it's the kids choice to go along with the rule or not. Most, being, or desiring to be, obedient sheep, will comply; others, knowing that it often makes good since to pass for a sheep, will also comply, while still others, resentful of the arbitrary and essentially nonsensical nature of such rules, will attempt to flout or break them when possible.

[reggie the dog]

129. the rule should not exist

american schools are fucked; they sell water bottles in machines at the schools here in France and of course you can bring your own with you, as you can also bring any over the counter medecine and any prescription meds for the doses on the prescription in your pocket. Knives are not tolerated but nail clippers pen knives (1 cm blade for opening things) are fine, hell in the countryside where I work swiss army knives are tools not weapons. Kids can have their ciggies and the schools rarely if ever ask kids why they have rolling papers much less search their pockets for hash.

[Pacifist Patriot]

133. You'll get no argument from me.

[reggie the dog]

145. it must be hell on kids today in the USA

I would have had a nervous breakdown. Yet another reason that my daughter will stay in France, where she was born, hell I have not even asked for American nationality for her yet.

[dugaresa]

70. when I was in middle school a girl was suspended because she

had put vodka in her orange aid bottle (mixed it to make a kind of screwdriver)

In this girl's case it was even more special. She was a Catholic school student who attended public school part time to participate in gym/home ec. She had started drinking at the Catholic school and was pretty toasted by the time she got to the middle school. Wanna know who picked her up?

The local police watched her stumble from one school to the next. (a police officer in a marked car saw her stumbling along sharing a bottle with other girls on their way to the public school). Concerned something was perhaps wrong they followed her in and voila she and her friends were caught. She got the worst of it since she was the most intoxicated and was indoctrinating other kids.

[fumsm]

94. Try selling equipment in the auto industry

Ww hat do you drive a foreign car???

[Heidi]

96. What do you mean by "zero tolerance kids"? Zero tolerance is a policy, not a kind of kid. (nt)

[Pacifist Patriot]

108. You've made a self-contradictory statement.

Kids that are subjected to Zero Tolerance are the ones with chronic behavior problems.

By it's very definition, ALL kids are subjected to the Zero Tolerance policies and their consequences not just chronic offenders.

Does punishing all children equally really address the issue of chronic offenders? Given the stories you tell, it appears not.

[Posteritatis]

150. What are you talking about?

"Zero tolerance kids?" Thefuck?

Individual people don't get those policies at any school I know of, the entire damn campus does. Zero tolerance means you get suspended from school if someone else punches you in the face without provocation.

[smalll]

37. So what exactly did your precious little innocent child --

-- in whose mouth butter would not melt, I'm sure -- DO?

[seabeyond]

51. exactly. this is what schools are up against. n/t

[fumsm]

95. Not mine a------!

[Pacifist Patriot]

111. Name calling isn't necessary. It was a snarky comment to be sure, but...

I can understand why people would want a little back ground to the rant. What did you see, experience or read that prompted your post?

[fumsm]

114. So far this last two week, 12 seniors expelled so far, 2 weeks left.

Punishment did not fit the crimes. It is a shame. But zero tolerance is always the answer from these people.

By the way, two ex-cops on school board. These guys were lousy cops, now control the school board.

[kwassa]

201. so, were they selling heroin or did they bring guns to school?

what was the crime for which they were expelled?

was it this story?

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/45046157.html

EVERETT, Wash. - Fourteen students have been placed in emergency expulsion after a large-scale food fight broke out among students at Henry M. Jackson High School in Mill Creek on Thursday morning.

..........................

Waggoner said "emergency expulsion" is a legal term "that may sound more draconian to those who hear it than it really is."

She said the expelled students won't be allowed back at school until their parents have a conference with administrators.

"For a school principal, 'emergency expulsion' is an action he or she can take as a safety valve," Waggoner wrote in an e-mail to KOMO News. "It removes those involved in an incident from the mix so that the rest of the school population is safe."

She said an emergency expulsion allows the principal to set specific conditions for a student's return to school. In this case, the students can come back after they have sat with the administration and their parents to talk about their behavior and how they will act in the future.

[Jkid]

45. Zero-Tolerance laws is the product of the Federal Gun-Free Schools Act of 1994

The Act require school districts to expel anyone possessing a firearm on school property for at least one year. The law did not specified a limit, so it was implied that states can expand it to include drugs, weapon lookalikes, etc.

Link to actual law: http://www.ed.gov/legislation/ESEA/sec14601.html

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. Thank you. We need to stop blaming teachers and school districts for ZT

[fumsm]

117. Except all too often they hide behind the convenience of this ridiculous law

That's professional and show great responsibility too!

[proud2BlibKansan]

157. So are you suggesting they break the law?

And risk losing their teaching certificates?

[seabeyond]

52. 14 yr old son got in car yesterday, mad. he says from here on out, gum,

tardy, late paper, all the things that were detention are now iss (in school suspension). he was so mad, yelling that he is tired of the handful of kids always doing wrong, interrupting classes, putting gum under teachers desk or spittin it on the floor because they have caused the school to go to this extreme, taking all kids privileges away from them as a whole, cause a handful of kids refuse to behave

my son has priorities correct. it isn't schools fault, or teachers fault, it is the kids that refuse to behave, that actively cause disorder in the day interrupting the learning of all the kids.

[Pacifist Patriot]

71. I honestly don't think kids are any better or worse than they were when I was...

in school. There have always been and will always be a few bad apples. And yet my schools operated pretty darned well without Zero Tolerance policies and draconian punishments.

I think it's a systemic issue and not just within the school environment. Blame cannot be laid at the feet of administrators, teachers or the students. Our litigious society is also one that often views schools as little more than holding pens for kids until we're ready to release them into the economy as workers. That might have a little something to do with it as well.

[seabeyond]

76. what would eb the difference in a kids behavior whose parent rags on school for beeper

or that a child brought a water bottle to school, against school rule? or the parent that said, broke the rule, suffer repercussion. kids cant be trusted to go to bathroom, pee and go to class, so all kids suffer for the few? putting ownership on the kids behavior.

which child is going to be disruptive and not be disruptive.

[Pacifist Patriot]

81. Honestly I am not trying to be snarky, please believe me, but because...

of your grammar I'm having a hard time following your post. I will try to answer it, but if my response isn't what you are asking I am truly sorry.

I am a parent who believes some of the rules schools have today are perfectly acceptable, some are ridiculous and others patently outrageous. However, if my child attended the school I would expect him to follow the rules. If he broke one than he pays the consequences. The point is that I would find out what the rules are before hand and make informed consent on whether my child goes to that school or not.

I would have conversations with my child to discuss the rules and explain why I feel about them the way I do. I don't believe my kid knowing I think the beeper is humiliating would translate into him becoming a disruptive force in the school by refusing to use it. I would tell him that although it is humiliating, by enrolling in that school he is agreeing to abide by their expectations.

That being said, our local school does have too many silly rules and degrading policies for my taste so we have opted not to send our children there.

[seabeyond]

87. son has a lock in at end of school year. last night he was listing all the rules

bitching about all the rules. every rule had a valid reason for being but the no hat rule. that was the only one i could say to him, ok, that is not a problem kids wearing a hat, bummer. but ALL the rest of the rules had a reason. yes i told him, it is treating you kids as "kids", "prisoners" and i am sorry you dont have more freedom. he is responsible and i could give him that freedom, but he clearly knows that there are a lot of kids in class that will do stupid and the school is responsible. sorry. check in when get there, check out when leave, parent has to walk into building at midnight to pick up kid. son wants the freedom and trust of walking otu to car. unfortunately there will be kids that take off at midnight.... causing problems or not, but school is responsible.

yes, it is horrible that we cannot give our kids the trust to be responsible. it is the way i parent and son values, ergo i can trust him. but not the reality of other kids in his class. and the school is made responsible. not the parents.

but i approach it like you. here are the rules, valid or not, right or not.... you follow them

last night, my son doesnt fight, never fought, but doesnt take shit. says this particular kid, if he hit him to shut him up, he would get in trouble, but would lose my respect because he was doing it for moral reasons. ok i say to him, that is his thinking. now let me tell you where he went wrong and didnt think it thru. would be a hUGE issue. we are guests in that school. out of district. IF son who has never gotten in trouble and well liked, hit another kid even for justifiable reasons, my youngest son that has three more years in that school could be kicked out. HUGE reason to not hit another kid even if has a valid reason. he would get in HUGE trouble. and he didnt think things thru

[reggie the dog]

143. too many rules

here in France you can have cell phones in school but cannot use them in class, you can have gum, water, tobacco, alcohol if you are of age (even the teachers are allowed to drink wine at lunch, so I do not feel bad going out for a little joint at lunch from time to time if the kids are really busting my balls) you can have hats but outside in the courtyard, not inside the building, you can have your jacket with you at all times and wear it if you want to, you can have water bottles, over the counter medecine, prescription medecine with the prescription and you know what, there is less problems with violence in our schools here than in comparable schools in the USA. We trust our kids here once they are in high school. In the USA you treat your high school students like we treat our middle school students, like kids. We try to make them responsable and treat them like adults once they are in high school.

[seabeyond]

146. i agree with you readily. but something has happened in this culture the last decade

the u.s. has a huge problem and they dont know how to address it. they are trying. i see they are trying, but really, look at so many of the posts that blanket blame school, create the kids as vicitims, and not responsible and parents the whine excuses for them. the parents are not parenting today. it is causing huge problems in our society and culture. and then we point the finger at the schools. they are (not correctly) trying to gain a handle through rules, instead of depending on the parent. and they cannot depend on the parent, cause the parent is failing.

the point is to allow the the kids to learn the responsibility and all to prove self and earn trust. that is the ideal. but that isnt working for our kids. i do it in my house. and it does wonders for my son in his behavior. i am not afraid as he goes thru teenage years. but as far as the schools.... we the people created this

i have always been opposed to no tolerance. and exactly what you talk about, per the way i raise the kids. but i also recognize the issues we have in the u.s. that has progressively gotten worse.

[reggie the dog]

153. we have a similar problem here in France

the kids that act up are often teated as victims and we feel that parents are not doing enough to make kids responsable. We try to make them responsable at school. We try anyways.

[JuniperLea]

183. You parented your son...

That's the difference. If everyone actually parented their children, there would be no such thing as zero tolerance.

The few fuck it up for the many, that's the way of the world.

[reggie the dog]

142. I will teach my kids how to break stupid rules without being caught

I have only been busted once for grass in over 15 years of daily use. I think I will do a good job teaching my daughter how to live free and hide the rule busting from the few people who give a damn.

[Pacifist Patriot]

151. I think civil disobedience is a valuable thing, provided...

one is prepared for the consequences. There is no guarantee one will never be caught.

[seabeyond]

152. exactly. and not being a rule follower myself, .... i tell kids

that even though i decide, per rule, i also look at the repercussions and risks taken. why i have been able to make it all these years without dire consequences

[reggie the dog]

154. yep

my kids will know that it is best not to get caught but that you get punished if you get caught. If they have legal trouble for breaking an unjust law or rule I will buy them the best lawyer I can afford. If they do something horrible like murder I would not help them out of that jam.

[reggie the dog]

131. no gum in school?

what the fuck? horrible horrible rules they have created in the USA.

[seabeyond]

134. lol. when i was a kid we werent allowed. i am a gum chewer and learned how to be sneaky

surprise, son has adopted the same behavior. but then we were both responsible with it too and repercussion not so great, we didnt mind breaking the rule. now repercussion is too great, cause all year with lax, kids have taken advantage and are irresponsible with it. is it a horrible, horrible rule? no. appropriate cause of behavior with it. is it a big deal? wasnt but is now.

he is bothered not by the rule, but by classmates behavior that takes away the trust of the kids when at 14 he is trying to exert his independence by being responsible with behavior and whats the reward for that. i can understand. but greater, he can understand why the few ruin it for the whole and being pissed at the kids, not the rule

i dont think that is a bad position for a kid to have

btw: from the feel of your post seems like you purposely approached in a direction my post was not taking. i think it is clear my post isnt about the gum rule, but the point of sons anger is kids missing it up for the others. why would you make my post about something it isnt

[reggie the dog]

147. collective punishment

is highly frowned upon here.

[proud2BlibKansan]

162. Have you ever cleaned up gum left on furniture and on the floor?

That's why most schools don't let kids chew gum. They don't know how to put it in the trash when they are done chewing it.

[TK421]

175. I stopped chewing gum during Catholic grade school....nuns and yardsticks have

a funny way of changing habits! I seldom chew it to this day

And thanks for all you do...teaching can sometimes be considered a thankless job :-)

[proud2BlibKansan]

177. Thanks for the nice comment

I am one of those teachers who has a zero tolerance policy on gum. When the kids ask why, I say because it's my rule. I used to explain that it was too messy to clean up and they were making extra work for the custodian but now I just tell them no gum. I choose not to waste valuable learning time discussing gum chewing.

[GreenArrow]

196. I'll tell you what else

There is a sizable minority of people who find the sight and sound of gum chewing unpleasant and highly stress producing. If I have to take a test and some slob is sitting two seats over snapping and slurping his or her gum, it creates a major distraction, to put it mildly.

I had an opportunity to teach a few courses at the junior college level, and I was quick to make it understood that gum chewing was prohibited.

[reggie the dog]

181. yes

I did it in detention one time

[Pacifist Patriot]

168. That's actually a very old rule and one I agree with.

Kids need water to stay hydrated, they don't need chewing gum. It's distracting and messy. That was a rule when I was in school back in the dark ages. That being said, I wouldn't expel or suspend a child for gum chewing but I do think it is a valid rule and should have proportionate consequences. If I recall correctly, if we were caught chewing gum we got to help the janitorial staff clean up all the wads from the kids who hadn't gotten caught. Ew!

[seabeyond]

170. we had to write.... i will not chew gum in the classroom, how many ever times, lol. n't

[datasuspect]

60. the authoritarian bureaucrat does not operate in a world bound by the rules of logic or common sense

the primary motivating factor is punishment above anything else, at whatever cost. the desired result is compliance and conformity.

[ChoralScholar]

77. Fisto would make a great principal!

[Pacifist Patriot]

63. It is crowd control, nothing more and nothing less.

It moves herds of kids through the system rather than taking the effort to apply judgment to independent cases. That would take too much time, energy and expense. Application of common sense and sound judgment requires an investment that is inefficient to the task at hand.

It is a sympton that indicates a much more insidious disease.

If anyone thinks these policies don't result in stupid and unfair decisions that impact a child they aren't paying attention.

1. a first grader being expelled and labeled a sex offender for stealing a kiss from one of his classmates on the playground. Well, after all, the school has a zero tolerance policy for both public displays of affection and sexual harassment.

2. an honor roll student who had never so much as had a single detention was suspended and sent to the classroom for the district's juvenile delinquents because they found two Midol pills in her locker. Sorry you’re cramping sweety, but we have a zero tolerance policy for drugs.

3. a boy denied the right to graduate with his high school class because a cake knife was spotted sliding out from under the front passenger seat of his car after a graduation rehearsal. It didn’t matter that it was his mother’s car, the knife was hers and it had been in the car since she had brought a cake to a friend’s house, the school had a zero tolerance policy for weapons on campus.

One would think our children are worth the effort to discriminate between a sixteen year old snog behind the gymnasium and a six year old playing chase during recess. We should take the time to recognize the difference between midol and marijuana, a cake knife and a switchblade.

[nichomachus]

68. A big part of zero tolerance is the stupidity or bigotry of those in authority

When people like school principals, judges, police officers, etc. are given discretion, they very often allow their judgments to be clouded by things like racism, sexism, favoritism etc. Zero tolerance -- which I think is stupid -- is an attempt to counter that.

Example, if a principal has discretion, you would see cases where white kids would get a slap on the wrist and black kids would get the full penalty. Or a straight athlete would get a pass and the gay kid would get expelled. Or the city councilman's kid would get off and the laborer's kid would get thrown out.

So, the real problem isn't zero tolerance, but the inability of those in charge to deal with cases fairly. If we could rely on those in authority to make better decisions, we wouldn't need zero tolerance.

Along the same lines, even when those in authority make the right decision, they are often looking down the barrel of a lawsuit. With zero tolerance, they have something to protect them from that.

[LWolf]

74. The authoritarians of the nation.

Republicans, but also a large contingent of other centrists.

That said, glancing through this thread reveals quite a few fallacies.

While schools may have "zero tolerance" for weapons, students get away with all kinds of other behaviors that sure as hell weren't tolerated when I was a student. No "zero tolerance" policies then, but also no culture of "always blame someone else for my own misbehavior."

My school is certainly not a prison; we are small, and we can pro-actively address the students with severe, and chronic, behavior problems.

We can't "cure" them, although we certainly DO work actively to help them make better choices. At most, for some, we can manage them so as to minimize disruption and bad influence on others.

Large schools don't have the same flexibility that smaller schools do. Large Factory schools lend themselves to authoritarian regimes.

Of course, the entire philosophy and politics involving education these days is one of authoritarian blame/punish; you can hardly blame the schools for getting with the authoritarian system that the public keeps supporting with their votes for politicians who manipulate it.

Or you can; that's what the blame game is all about, after all.

[Pacifist Patriot]

78. One of your sentences says volumes

"Large Factory schools lend themselves to authoritarian regimes"

[seabeyond]

83. here is the point. regardless, education is the responsibility of the child

and it is parenting to insure that the child understands the necessity of that education and regardless of situation, grab hold of that education, demand it, insist on it. my son had a lousy math teacher in the 7th grade. she was bad. i understood, recognized. and it cause my son some challenges in that class. NEVER did i allow him to use it as an excuse for poor grades or not learning. he had the ownership on learning this material. i told him regardless of her ability was his responsibility to learn the much needed stuff. whether it was after school, going to previous teacher willing to help him or me hiring a tutor. the not learning was NOT an option and he would suffer for not being successful.

[Pacifist Patriot]

85. Education is not just the responsibility of the child.

It is the responsibility of the child and the child's caregivers. And if our society keeps claiming we place a high priority on education, than we should darned well start acting like it at a systemic level.

[seabeyond]

89. responsibility of child and responsibility of parent to insure child gets that education

i put that in the first line.

i know the difference between the child whose parent demands education for their child and the parent that leaves it to school and society to educate

[Pacifist Patriot]

90. We both agree on that, but I'm carrying it further.

Education is a hot political potato seeming to indicate it is viewed as a priority. Our society supposedly places a high value on education, but we aren't putting our money or our initiative where our mouths are. If we are going to provide for a better future, than our entire community has to take responsibility for children getting the best education possible. I'm not seeing that in action yet.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

providing the education. it is an obvious. it is what i have seen available in the

schools for my children. it is what my children have received in the last decade

[proud2BlibKansan]

163. I talk to wingunts online on several other discussion boards

One of their favorite insults is "Grow up."

Just sayin . . .

[seabeyond]

166. kids behavior is at issue, he insists i blame the teacher and then tells me to grow up. lol

hm, i wonder why kids have a tough time taking responsibility for their actions and why there are not repercussions for them to suffer

[proud2BlibKansan]

176. I have known way too many parents just like that

Always blaming everyone but their own kid for making a bad decision. I could tell so many stories. LOL

[LWolf]

208. That's well said.

What IS the "systemic" level at which reforms will move our national culture to value education enough, for all families to value it enough to actually support, rather than attack?

I think I have a pretty good vision of how to structure the system so that it invites the community, and the families, in, to learn together and to celebrate learning.

It's the antithesis of the current structure, and I believe that's deliberate. Not on the part of the system itself, but on the part of the politicians holding the strings, carrots, and sticks at the top.

I believe that there are too many powerful people and groups that benefit from a dysfunctional system.

Similar to the farce going on right now with health care; systemic change that benefits teachers, students, and families is unlikely in the current climate.

[LWolf]

209. It does. nt

[dugaresa]

80. I remember when I was a kid that I feared getting in trouble at school because

the punishment wouldn't end at school.

I would get punished at home as well if I didn't behave and typically it was far worse. 2 weeks of no friends, no calls, no fun and loads more chores to do. So I made a point not to get into trouble if I could ever help it after learning the hard way once.

My eldest child is a samrt and intelligent kid. However everytime he has a problem at school (academically) he gives us some sob story. The issue is that I don't believe him because he is smart and he knows me and he knows how to manipulate me because he lives with me. So my spouse and I go to the source of his troubles each time. The teacher. After a few back and forth episodes, my son's honesty about situations has improved immensely. (not that he lied, but he made mountains out of molehills and would act as though his teacher was the Grand Inquisitor and put him on the rack). Meanwhile this "Grand Inquisitor", is so nice that she spends time after school once a week to help my son with certain aspects of his education along with other kids. Some big baddie she is.

Personally I have seen more behavioral problems in kids due to their parents.

[Pacifist Patriot]

88. You bring up a point that seems to have been missed in the discussion.

Zero tolerance wouldn't be as big a problem as it is if the back end were more reasonable. The draconian disciplinary consequences seem like overkill in many instances. I have sympathy for anyone trying to maintain crowd control in a mega-school with thousands of kids, but then maybe that's a problem right there. You cannot get to know the kids and build rapport with families when you're dealing with thousands of them.

[fumsm]

104. Who's fault is that, the kids?

[Pacifist Patriot]

105. I think it's simplistic to assign blame to any one group of people.

We're talking systemic issues here.

[Pacifist Patriot]

120. Out of curiosity, why would anyone think the existence of mega-schools...

would be the fault of the kids who attend them? They would have nothing to do with a decision to have two high schools of 5,000 kids each instead of five high schools with 2,000 kids each or ten high schools with 1,000 kids each. :shrug:

[sammythecat]

92. The very idea of "zero tolerance"

of reasonably correctable mistakes, errors, and bad judgment, in an environment where children are learning to grow up seems like a tragically stupid idea.

[AngryAmish]

107. You have to understand that education professionals aren't exactly the sharpest knives

Simple rules for simple people.

[Pacifist Patriot]

109. Ouch!

:popcorn:

[fumsm]

115. Yea, but try to get rid of them. This was part of new contract as well.

PROTECTION!!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

164. Yes we are all so very stupid! Went into teaching cause we were too dumb to do anything else!

:sarcasm:

[Froward69]

123. I agree shit has to change

I noticed that republicans push for "NO Tolerance" to punish and hinder childrens lives. as then their kids (if never caught) get a leg up over others. Less competition. We here all know republicans attempt to hinder competition at every turn.

AS THEY HAVE DIFFICULTY COMPETING THEMSELVES.

[conscious evolution]

135. Its about ingraining

a sense of contempt for rule of law in children.

[GreenArrow]

202. I don't think it's conciously about that

but it certainly and emphatically does have that effect.

[montanto]

167. First off, what are you talking about?

Second, "Our schools have become prisons, with little or no regard for the children's education."? Really? Upon what evidence is that assertion based? What does what politicians "walk away scot free" from have to do with schools I wonder? I don't get it at all.

[seabeyond]

171. what evidence is that assertion based?.... silliness? n/t

[JuniperLea]

180. My oldest went to a math and science academy...

There was zero tolerance for everything: drugs, fighting, smoking, you name it. I'm not sure what it is you are ranting about, because all of these things are bad for kids. And I supported the rules. 100% of his graduating class were accepted to excellent colleges; 25% to ivy league.

[YvonneCa]

195. Who is the 'they' to which you refer? And I don't ...

..." 'scuse your French " or your spelling...I'm a teacher. As to kid's lives, you may want to read a few well-written ideas about how to make our schools work better here:

http://www.edgovblogs.org/duncan/2009/05/secretary-arne-duncan-takes-listening-tour-online-invites-comments-on-raising-standards/


These posts are written by people who have worked long hours for MANY years to support students.

[kwassa]

199. The longest thread with the least amount of information

this one is a real winner.