I'm done with Amazon.com

[timtom]

I know, I know. This should have happened a long time ago.

I had it set up to purchase items using a transfer directly out of my checking account.

They no longer do that.

Just like Starbucks not taking checks any longer.

The very hell with credit cards!

[RebelOne]

1. Do you have a debit card?

It works just like a credit card.

[timtom]

7. I'm afraid of debit cards.

Got into trouble in the early 80's with one (we were lax in keeping up with it).

I'll give it some thought.

[anigbrowl]

60. It just works like a checking account xfer and it's faster

I think it's considerably cheaper for the merchant too, like 1%. I'm not sure how yuo get into trouble with a debit card. Just contact the bank and tell them to turn off any automatic overdraft or courtesy overdraft facility and confirm in writing.

[wolfgangmo]

63. sorry I disagree.

Banks charge the most for merchant use of a debit card.

Give me cash or checks please.

[havocmom]

73. If so, why did merchants sue (and win, I believe) for charging credit fee on debit transactions?

Why would retailers have machines that differentiate between the two transactions? Why do banks give people incentives to use their debit cards but check 'charge' instead of 'debit' whenever they are given the choice?

[crikkett]

82. charge cards and debit cards have different fee schedules. But the fees are there.

Debit cards are less expensive to accept than credit cards.

But they both cost a small percentage (about 2-4%) of the transaction plus a set transaction fee of somewhere between 15 and 40 cents.

Then, the typical merchant also has to pay for a merchant bank account (monthly fees), equipment rental (more fees) and a processor (even more monthly fees.)

[havocmom]

86. Yeah, debit cards are lower fees. I knew that

and thus my question re the fact that retailers sued banks for charging the credit fees on debits. Banks lost that one and then started offering incentives for users to use debit card as credit cards. The retailers and the banks are at war.

[crikkett]

96. True. n/t

[MADem]

106. Never mind--misunderstood the focus. nt

[geek_sabre]

2. really?

i just ordered a cd yesterday, and it was still an option.

[LostinVA]

3. I use my debit card

[supernova]

4. 3d rec for debit card

I never have any problems using it.

[Pab Sungenis]

24. If you're worried, get a stored-value debit card

like Green Dot has. It costs you $5.00 to put cash on it, but otherwise acts just like a normal debit card, and can't take out more than you put on. Not tied to a bank account.

[sarcasmo]

49. I have a separate checking account for Internet purchases only, this may take your fear out of the

Debit Card. The only thing I use my National City account is for Internet purchase, the other account is strictly to pay bills.

[HopeHoops]

5. My debit card works like a Visa.

Some banks (the bigger ones in particular) are charging merchants for direct transfer now, so yours might be on a "ban list" because of that.

[stray cat]

6. Book stores will be glad to you have drive there and walk in their doors

I'm sure they will appreciate the business and often the profit on the books is a bit higher as well (most are not discounted 30%)

[MADem]

10. I rarely buy books from AMAZON. I use the library.

I do buy lots of DVDs and food and oddball stuff.

[timtom]

19. And this is the OTHER solution I shall use.

Thanks.

[timtom]

18. This is the solution I shall adopt.

Thanks.

[geek_sabre]

59. The "top-rated" local bookstore in my city

has the worst customer service I have seen. I happen to enjoy browsing book stores, and, to support my community, will pay a little extra to get a book there. Last summer, I asked them to order a book that they did not have in stock, and they said (no kidding) "Why don't you just order it from Amazon?"

So I did. And never set foot back in the store.

[oedura]

78. Regular bookstores are virtually obsolete, IMHO...

They almost never have anything I'm really interested in, what they do have that I want I can get cheaper on the 'net, and I'm sick of having to step over a--holes who sit on the floors in the aisles to read.

Also, the "You might be interested in..." feature on Amazon, etc., has helped me find a lot of things I enjoyed that I would have never heard of otherwise.

[MADem]

8. Use a debit card. Either that, or send them a check and wait, and wait, and wait.

A debit card is a "check" without the paper. Same thing.

I like AMAZON. The stuff gets here fast and they've yet to screw up an order.

[crikkett]

16. Amazon is like walmart in that they work to defeat small business. n/t

[MADem]

20. Well, ya know what? If "small business" in my community didn't overcharge egregiously,

have absolutely no parking, requiring people to park-n-pay to shop, have really crummy customer service (it's a privilege for me to shop with them? I think NOT), no delivery, be shitty about returns, and be generally consumer unfriendly, they might do better.

I use AMAZON because they deliver a good product, they are reliable, and their prices are fair. They forgo shipping costs for anything over twenty five bucks, because economies of scale allow them to do that. That's good for MY wallet, and I don't apologize for not wanting to spend money I could give to someone out of work in my family to some strangers running a small and inefficient business.

I'm not going to bemoan the demise of the Buggy Whip manufacturers. Compete, or die.

Every time I use AMAZON, the guy who lives down the street from me who drives for UPS lives to drive another day. The guy who packs the box to mail it to me lives to pack boxes another day. The woman at the distribution center who sorts the boxes so they can be shipped lives to sort boxes another day.

I do not regard small businesses as charities. They can either deliver at a comparable price, or give me some "value added," in some other fashion, to make it worth my while to patronize them, or they can toddle off this mortal coil.

Unsympathetic? Yes, I am. Bring it, or go home.

[Coyote_Bandit]

23. It is virtually impossible

for small business to compete with large business.

That economy of scale that enables you to enjoy price savings from large business is denied to small business. Not because it is not offered but because most small businesses simply do not have the available market to justify investory pruchases in required quantities.

No, it doesn't excuse poor service or location in areas that are not convenient or user friendly. And most definitely it doesn't excuswe a bad attitude.

My personal opinion is that volume discounts ought to be made illegal. It would restore some competition to our economy.

[MADem]

27. Small businesses should offer "value added," then.

I buy shoes from a small non-chain shoe store that takes two weeks to order my shoes, but they charge LESS than online. I don't mind waiting to get the discount. The store measures yer feet every time ya go in, and calls you when your order comes in. They'll even throw in a pair of free socks with the shoes, or the owner will drop off your order on his way home, particularly in the winter when the driving is sketchy. THAT's "competing." I get "value added" so I patronize that business. My shoes always fit, too.

I will not buy books from my local bookstore (not a chain) because they're assholes who sigh when you ask for something, as if it's too hard to look it up and determine if they have it. They also charge full price for pretty much everything.

I think volume discounts are GREAT. You will never get your wish that they be "made illegal" -- that's just silly. COSTCO and BJs are big business, and their business is volume discounts. Those stores employ a shitload of Americans, too.

Again--small businesses are NOT charities. If you can't compete selling a product that people can get online for less, stop selling that product and sell something else--a service, something that doesn't ship well, something that's unique, artistic, or unusual.

Adapt, compete, or die.

[Coyote_Bandit]

30. Which explains

why I believe there are far greater economic opportunities elsewhere.

Americans are all for looking out for number one. Too bad about the unemployed/underemployed bloke across the street. Small wonder we can watch American labor and labor rights going poof before out eyes.

Funny how what goes around comes around. I'm betting someday you'll be that unemployed/ underemployed bloke. Seems to eventually happen to everyone above the age of 40. Oh, well. You're on your own.

[MADem]

31. Like where? Canada? UK? Europe? Amazon is HUGE there, too.

Knock yourself out. Don't threaten to take your ball and leave--Just Do It.

I'm retired. So your bet is "off." And in my retirement, I'll support viable businesses that provide value to the customer, and eschew those that overcharge, sell inferior, shopworn shit, and are surly.

And you apparently don't understand that AMERICANS work for Amazon, too. And that Amazon provides the opportunity for AMERICAN businesses to sell their products to a wider marketplace, to say nothing of keeping the post office and UPS humming (and Americans employed).

What, you think they only employ aliens (of the outer space, or other, variety)? Your argument is simple and foolish, and your little "wishes" that I meet with a dire fate because I don't feel like throwing my money away are just, well, dumb. They don't do much for your "argument" either--sorta like "Well, I hope you get sick and DIE!!!" Why not just go with the "I hate you!!!" approach?

One more time--compete, or die. America does have the ability to do that. I have confidence in this country-- you, apparently don't share that because you're so anxious to leave for what you perceive are greener pastures (having lived in many of those pastures for almost half my life, I have to say I like the USA--but do tell us how that works out for you once you get settled in and are welcomed with open arms). We have a diverse population that is smart and has a variety of interests. You are a doom-n-gloomer because you don't think America CAN compete, and has to be supported by the "charity" of people who will pay too much for lousy shit and poor service, just so people don't "feeeeel" bad.

Becoming a "nation of shopkeepers" is what doomed the Brits to third-rate status. New industries, new economies--that's the road ahead. Not paying way too much for a dogeared book.

[Boojatta]

33. I doubt you'll get feedback from the person you were replying to.

So I would like to express my appreciation for this part:

your little "wishes" that I meet with a dire fate because I don't feel like throwing my money away are just, well, dumb. They don't do much for your "argument" either--sorta like "Well, I hope you get sick and DIE!!!" Why not just go with the "I hate you!!!" approach?

I like your style. :)

[hfojvt]

45. really, because that was kinda weak

Person A says: screw the small business person, they can compete or die

Person B says: maybe you will develop more empathy if you get cast aside or ground underfoot by somebody who says to you 'compete or die'.

Or at least the hope is there that person A might develop some empathy if they consider that it might happen to them. I don't think that is quite as weak as just saying 'I hate you'.

[MADem]

51. I never said "Screw them" though. I did say "compete or die."

If a small business person is so stupid that they keep selling a product that has no market, they will end up dying. That's just the way it is. I am not "screwing" them--they're screwing themselves if they don't wake up and adapt to market realities.

Check out the AMAZON MARKETPLACE sometime. It's full of small businessmen--and women--who sell all sorts of stuff by (gasp) mail. They affiliate with AMAZON, and AMAZON processes the payments, no doubt takes a cut, but also expedites any "issues" that might arise during the transaction.

They're located all over the US, these AMAZON MARKETPLACE small businesspeople. I've bought stuff from little towns in Ohio, Indiana, Texas, California, Rhode Island, Maine, you name it. I've bought exotic foodstuffs from ethnic grocers, perfumes as gifts for family members, used DVDs and games for the kiddies, used, out-of-print books that were difficult to find, tons of "oddball stuff" that the "local business owner" does not have, isn't motivated to stock, and doesn't want to get off his/her ass and try to find for me.

See, I am supporting these small businesspeople in the USA, they just don't happen to live down the street from me. But they live in little towns across the nation, and they sell shit that I want to buy--which is why I patronize them, and not the bozo with the overly handled, overpriced stuff who isn't open on Sunday.

Sincerely Yours,

Person A

[Boojatta]

77. "Person A says: screw the small business person, they can compete or die"

That gives the impression of being a straw man. Is there a Person A who expressed disdain for people just because those people are running small businesses?

If you are opposed to the way that some actual participant in this discussion is spending money, then what is the proposed alternative?

Here are two ideas:

1. Person A should stop buying from XYZ, even though XYZ might be a small business, and starting buying from ABC instead, even though Person A prefers the offers made by XYZ.

Why should empathy for ABC be a higher priority than both empathy for XYZ and the preferences of Person A?

2. Person A might spend more and go into debt in order to buy from ABC while continuing to buy from XYZ. Maybe Person A can also get a few sub-prime mortgages on some real estate at the same time.

Maybe I'm simply not creative enough. What's a good option that I failed to consider?

[MADem]

48. Why, thank you.

I don't mind a debate on the merits, and I am the first to love to learn something, because I think learning is a lifelong adventure. I am absolutely delighted that I learn something every single time I visit here at DU, and I've had my mind changed with a good solid argument on more than one occasion. There are some real smart people in these parts!

I don't like lousy arguments, though. When someone tries to guilt me into something that is against my economic interests, they won't make a sale. When someone wishes ill on me because I don't share their view, I just have to point it out!

[crikkett]

40. Hear, hear. n/t

[MADem]

52. Write to us when you arrive at your new home! Tell us how it works out for you, too! nt

[crikkett]

79. I don't think you understood what I said.

Hear, hear! Means "this person's point is worth listening to. I agree!"

I'm not going anywhere, lady.

[MADem]

90. Well,'lady,' if you agreed with the poster, you need to pack your bag.

The poster said:

Which explains
why I believe there are far greater economic opportunities elsewhere

[crikkett]

98. Oh my, are you trying to use some tired "America: Love it or leave it" freeper line of reasoning?

I don't need to pack my bag to agree that greater economic opportunities lie elsewhere. Read the news, we're in a depression.

[MADem]

100. No. Again, you don't read. You're the one that agreed with the person who

advocated leaving.

Then you attempted, lamely and unsuccessfully, to snark/make fun of me for observing that.

Now, you're trying to pretend that your "Hear, hear!" didn't mean you agreed with the person who advocated hitting the bricks? Or you sorta only halfassed-agreed? And, to save your "argument," you're suggesting that I am shoving you out the door?

You DO have an active imagination.

I'm simply pulling the string. People who claim that they agree with something but don't follow through are simply poseurs and scolds, or professional complainers. So I guess we've got that sorted, now, haven't we?

Please. Stay right where you are, do. Stew in those juices of yours, for all I care. Lift your half full glass and salute Doom and Gloom. Makes no difference to me.

You've "clarified your position." Now you "agree"...but not quite that much.

Whatever!

[crikkett]

102. I didn't read Coyote Bandit's post as advocating leaving.

What part of this advocates leaving?

(Which explains) why I believe there are far greater economic opportunities elsewhere.

Americans are all for looking out for number one. Too bad about the unemployed/underemployed bloke across the street. Small wonder we can watch American labor and labor rights going poof before out eyes.

Funny how what goes around comes around. I'm betting someday you'll be that unemployed/ underemployed bloke. Seems to eventually happen to everyone above the age of 40. Oh, well. You're on your own.

[MADem]

104. Yeah, because "normal" people routinely act against their economic interests.

That's the ticket!

Like you want me to do, paying far too much locally for shoddy merchandise, when I can get good stuff delivered to my home in a nice, recyclable box by my friendly neighbor who works for UPS. And if it doesn't suit, I can get my friendly neighbor to swing back by the house and pick the box up and return it.

Who wants THAT? It's just so...convenient, and customer-friendly!

[crikkett]

110. "paying too much for shoddy merchandise" is NOT ordering books from your local bookstore vs. Amazon.

which is what I have been advocating.

I advocate buying from local business whenever possible, because it helps local economies.

You and I have different ideas of what is possible. It's that simple, and it won't change.

Cheers
:toast:

[crikkett]

111. OBTW Amazon isn't the only bookstore that delivers by UPS.

I'm just saying.

[MADem]

114. I rarely buy books from AMAZON.

I buy DVDs, foodstuffs, artwork, furnishings, groceries, games for the kiddies, electronics, gifts of all sorts....books are a minority purchase. And the local bookstores never have the odd books I'd like.

I'm just saying.

[KakistocracyHater]

88. small business HAS succeeded when they cater to their

actual customers, to get rid of wholesale pricing-THAT could destroy business, period. Amazon is 1 of the only places that has books that I like, I've donated my older books to libraries. I think that LOTS of people preferred their local mom & pop video stores before Hollywood Videos Blockbuster Videos, & certainly I preferred the small films, foreign, & some anime. When the big box videos places started to charge late fees even when tapes were returned SAME DAY?! Well that's when I cancelled that shit & went with Netflix; may THAT lesson, taking for granted certain things.

[MADem]

92. There is a convenience store I go to in a small town when I visit there.

They have a huge selection of movies for rent off in the corner of the store that you will not find at Blockbuster. Foreign films, old movies, specialty films like documentaries, that kind of stuff. Two bucks a movie--some are only a buck. I go there all the time. They offer something I want, see? They also sell really good snacks to go with the movies. AND...they are within an easy walk of hundreds of homes, and they let you bring your dog into the store. It's a nice stretch of the legs after supper.

Not all small businesses will do poorly. You are right--the ones that cater, that provide a product people want at a decent--not a ripoff--price, will do great.

[crikkett]

39. That is a typical Ugly American response.

You're probably as charming as your local business-people.

[MADem]

54. I'm very charming. I just don't think getting ripped off is a terribly smart thing to endure.

For you to suggest that I have a lotta "nerve" to not want to be ripped off is interesting. You wouldn't be one of those small businessmen who's failing to compete, are you?

FWIW, I'm actually very charming. Old people and animals think I'm the bee's knees!

However, for you to respond to my argument by casting aspersions (or asparagus, as happens here at vegetable-friendly DU on occasion) on my degree of charm. and suggesting that, because I don't like paying way too much when I can get it for less I'm an "Ugly American," demonstrates the profound weakness of your argument.

You just did what I described above--you disagreed with my thesis with a variation on "Waaaah--I HATE you!!!"

[crikkett]

80. You're putting words in my mouth.

First, your writing doesn't show you to be charming.

Your writing shows you to be concerned with your immediate gratification and short-term benefit. It shows you to be either unconcerned or ignorant of the total cost of supporting a big-box operation like Walmart and Amazon.

By pointing out the similarity between your own opinions as you have written them, and your own disparaging description of your local businesspeople, I am not casting aspersions, asparagus, or stone. I am certainly not giving you a variation of "Waah I hate you." I'm making a guess based on observation, which is that you're no more pleasant than you make your local businesspeople out to be, and perhaps it's simply the culture of your area.

I appreciate what someone downthread wrote to me, about Amazon employing a large number of people in a nearby town. But Amazon's not competing fairly. It's not me they're not competing fairly with. It's my clients, none of whom are in their business to get rich, but to simply get by.

[MADem]

91. Look who's talking. I'm not the one running around this thread accusing people of being not

charming--that's your role here.

And I'm not concerned with "immediate gratification." I'm concerned with not getting ripped off. That's not a crime, even though you're acting like it is. Maybe you're one of those limosine liberal rich types who can afford to throw money around, you know, one of those Starbucks sipping, Whole Foods shopping, designer clothes wearing people who like paying too much to show everyone how well off they are ( that sentence was deliberately inserted into this post for a reason---do you like it when I make shit up about you, silly strawmen, and insert them into my discussion? I don't especially like it when you do it about me--and I thought I'd give you a taste of what you dish out) and can afford to subsidize nonproductive entities.

Average people cannot do this, throw their money around, pay too much to delay the inevitable. Inefficient, nonproductive businesses either need to adapt their business models to provide value added or more diverse product, or fold up and try something new.

How many people have to tell you that people work at these big box entities you disdain? Not all of them are awful, either. Amazon doesn't abuse their employees--neither does UPS.

Amazon IS competing fairly. They are providing good product, promptly, at a fair price. With a push of a button, people get what they want, either from the corporation or from the MARKETPLACE small businesses, without having to spend time out of their overworked, overstuffed day to shlep to a brick and mortar store, waste gas, or be disappointed when they get to the business that doesn't have what they want.

The days of Mayberry and Andy Taylor are gone. They aren't coming back, either.

The horse is out of the barn--you want to keep making buggy whips, and everyone's driving Model T's. You need to adjust your paradigms, or get left behind. And if this is the problem of "your clients," you need to have a Come To Jesus meeting with them and tell them if they're not competitive and they never will be, and suggest to them that they change their business models to compete effectively, or go "poof."

You also need to stop shooting the messenger. That's probably the "uncoolest" part of your snark at me. Reread your posts--they're full of comments about my character because I won't pay TOO MUCH for goods and services. That's pretty...er, rich. I'll leave the "Business Charity Work" to the wealthy, of which I am not one.

[crikkett]

97. "Maybe you're one of those limosine (sic) liberal rich types..."

Maybe you're one of those limosine liberal rich types who can afford to throw money around, you know, one of those Starbucks sipping, Whole Foods shopping, designer clothes wearing people who like paying too much to show everyone how well off they are ...and can afford to subsidize nonproductive entities.

Wouldn't that be nice. May it be so. From your keyboard to God's ears!

If I had money to waste I'd invest in a bookstore in your community. Maybe talk you into a partnership, or hire you to run it. Then you'd change your tune.

Want some info on how Amazon.com workers are treated?
Amazon.com used to impose a gag order on ex-workers (2001)
http://www.union-network.org/unimultinationals.nsf/8c50750a545f12dbc1256911001f2583/521fdfa9cdd9bdc7c12569e700282ed5?OpenDocument

You want your local businesses to compete against this:
December 14, 2008
Revealed: Amazon staff punished for being ill
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/retailing/article5337770.ece

Using Wal-Mart as a case study:
The High Cost of Low Price
http://www.totalfilm.com/reviews/cinema/wal-mart-the-high-cost-of-low-price

Amazon scores 80 of 100 in Human Rights Campaign Survey (2009) (GLBT Equal rights group)
http://www.hrc.org/issues/workplace/organization_profile.asp?organization_id=4994&search_id=1&search_type=Quick

Amazon.com has been anti-union since 2000:
1) http://news.cnet.com/Union-organizers-criticize-Amazon-FAQ/2100-1017_3-250389.html
2) http://www.word-power.co.uk/viewPlatform.php?id=23
3) http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=10120689

[MADem]

99. You missed the entire point of that strawman sentence.

That's the kind of crap you pull when you "discuss" an issue. You get personal. I was giving you a taste of your own medicine.

I guess that's why you pulled that little bit out where I noted that, and used an ellipse--ruined your thesis?

Nowadays, people who have jobs are the lucky ones. Like it or not, the paradigms are shifting. It's why the march toward health care is pretty much inevitable.

Wow, eighty of a hundred--and you call that BAD? That's considered "good" in most quarters. Not superb, but "good."

"Bad" would be, oh, 29...or 15...or even forty.

And oh...those BRUTAL working conditions! :rofl: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ariane-de-bonvoisin/what-amazoncom-employees_b_117025.html

http://www.fastcompany.com/node/50106/print

http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/26/technology/obrien_kindle.fortune/?postversion=2009052605

Please. You don't read. My town can't support two bookstores as it is. And I'd never work for you--you don't listen. That's a bad employer, in my book. I'd rather work for Amazon.com! They're forward looking, they're expanding, and they maintain a sense of adventure. But most importantly--they put the CUSTOMER first. That's why they win.

[crikkett]

103. I didn't miss the point of your strawman sentence. I simply

used it for my own purposes. I really want to have enough money to waste on helping others and investing in my local economy.

I really do want that. At present I have to do it with my own hands and elbow grease.

Then I continued to try to inform you of the total cost, the hidden costs, of supporting an international business versus a local business.

You continued to ignore what I presented. Which leads me to the conclusion that I've wasted enough time and effort on you.

[MADem]

107. AMAZON is an international business, an American business, AND a local business.

However, the "local" support can be in any state in this union.

As I have said, I buy most of the stuff I purchase from AMAZON in the MARKETPLACE.

There simply is no point in propping up businesses that can't succeed on their own without your silly, well-meaning, but ultimately inevitable-delaying acts of charity. There are no "hidden costs" in the long term. The lousy business leaves, and another business that gives the population what they want takes its place. That's life. You want to keep buying buggy whips because you feel sorry for people. That's not the answer. The people making buggy whips need to start making whoopie pies or brownies or homemade ice cream, instead, open the doors and watch the customers pour in.

You continue to ignore what I present. You think that "guilting" people into buying shitty merchandise is the way to go. I disagree. I think businesses providing what customers want, better than the competition, with value-added, is the way to go. Compete, or die. Or get into another line of work.

I didn't "ignore" what you presented--I disagreed vociferously with it, and I told you, plainly and precisely, why.

If you really want to waste time and effort, continue to prop up failing businesses as a misguided act of charity. Your virtue will not be rewarded.

[crikkett]

112. The only thing I'm trying to tell you here, is that MARKETPLACE is not what you think

it is.

What I know is that the cut Amazon takes from the smaller businesses is so large that there's no longer any profit margin for them.

It's a deceptive arrangement, I'm told.

It's like doing business with Wal-Mart, I'm told.

Now, do what you want, but do it without misconceptions.

Don't believe me, ask your smaller vendors! Call them up. Their number or email addy should be listed in their amazon record.

I find stuff listed in Amazon through their MARKETPLACE and then order directly, for the same price or less, and the small business keeps more money.

For the record I too order through Amazon for new books or CDs to others as gifts, helping to keep their non-unionized warehouse folks employed when it's difficult to send them things otherwise. (Uunderstand MARKETPLACE is just a gateway.)

[MADem]

113. So what you're telling me is that the businesses in MARKETPLACE, that I go back to again and again

over the course of several years (that sell used books and used DVDs and so forth) are .... STUPID? Continuing to work against their own economic interests? Bull.

I think the one with misconceptions here is you. Let's hope that when you "direct order," that the business doesn't rip you off, because you'll win the Miss America contest before you'll get your dough back.

And the fact that you USE the bandwidth and listings of AMAZON, the effort of a laborer employed by AMAZON to post that listing, the effort of an AMAZON worker to manage that account, and then you go around them, denying these laborers compensation for their efforts, and, in essence, ripping them off, shows me precisely how unethical you are. I can't believe you're "proud" of that--and continue to argue against AMAZON when you use them/rip them off in that fashion. That's pure, rank hypocrisy.

Sorry, I don't buy your lousy arguments. If it's so "deceptive" the vendors wouldn't be there, year in and year out--they'd sever their relationship with Amazon. But they don't--why? They're making money, that's why.

I order new things from AMAZON, too. And it's always just what I want, or I can return it without issue.

They're not the enemy. They are a successful business. I wish every state had a few successful businesses like them, too.

[hfojvt]

42. a fair price?

As a bookstore I bought new books at 40-45% off. Amazon sells them for 30-40% off. There's no way I can compete with them on either price or selection. Although, that's sort of only true for new books. At various times I might have Mark Twain books for 50 cents. Or a used copy of "Stand on Zanzibar" for $1.25 which is apparently unavailable from Amazon (although it can be gotten at Amazon.com from a dealer for $9.99 plus shipping). And I was getting some neat stuff through over-stocks.

[MADem]

55. You might live near a good bookstore. I don't and there are two nearby that

are NOT chains--and they do suck. They make their money by ripping off private school kids for textbooks.

But "small business" is not just bookstores, and AMAZON sells way more than books. I rarely buy a book from them. I buy all kinds of other stuff though.

The chain bookstores will offer discounts, but they only have the same "What Everyone Is Reading" crap, the Oprah Book Club bullshit, that one can get at the library--for free.

And what's the difference between sashaying off to a mega-chain bookstore (gas, time, parking) and pushing a button on Ye Olde Laptop to get it from Amazon? That chain store is no "better" because it's close by. The profit doesn't all stay local. Sure, your neighbor is perhaps employed there, but your neighbor drives the UPS truck to deliver your AMAZON books, too.

And my time is worth something--every minute I spend driving to the mall, parking, ambling in to the store, waiting to be waited on, finding out if they have what I want (often not), and if they do have what I want, standing in line to pay for it, could be spent at the grocery store buying groceries for the little old lady who is a shut-in up the road, or taking that old guy who has lost his license because he can't see for shit anymore off to his doctor's visit, or washing pots, pans, tables, chairs and floors at the soup kitchen.

Look, if these businesses have what YOU need, knock yourself out. The chain bookstores rarely meet my needs, though. And the local ones never do--at least not at a fair price.

[uppityperson]

43. I am lucky that our local small bookstore takes care of us very well

They discount some books (like harry potter and the giant expensive books). And we've a decent used book store also, used and seconds.

New book store will order you in anything, usually get in under a week without shipping costs. Used store will keep their eyes out for something for you also.

Small town here though

[Neecy]

26. Not everywhere

I live in a small town and the nearest bookstore is an hour's drive away. My county library has almost no funding and they don't receive new books. Amazon is a lifeline and I use them constantly, never had a problem.

[Crabby Appleton]

29. Same here, it's a 100 mile round trip to the bookstore

I buy a lot of stuff from Amazon.

[crikkett]

38. I see your point. But Wal-Mart is like that too, in that it's often the only game in town.

You can order from an independent bookstore online or over the phone. I do.

The fact that Amazon is convenient to you, honestly, does not make it less harmful to small business-people.

[Neecy]

41. That's not the only story.

The town directly to the east of mine has a huge Amazon distribution center that employs a lot of people.

I appreciate the fact that Amazon provides rural employment. Not a lot of companies do. Those Amazon jobs are supporting a lot of families in my area, and they pay a living wage (unlike Wal-Mart, which I refuse to patronize).

[Generator]

75. That's ironic

Because Amazon links to thousands of smaller stores that you can buy merchandise from. And I know they take some cut of it-what I don't know-but it's ironic you rag on them for that-of course the local store is what you mean.

I don't e-bay-that creeps me out-but I have bought books, records, various things from many small retailers through Amazon.

Frankly I love Amazon because they have everything. And everything makes my life easier. I also use it to research products.

[crikkett]

81. What I know is that the cut Amazon takes from the smaller businesses is so large that there's no

longer any profit margin for them.

It's a deceptive arrangement, I'm told.

It's like doing business with Wal-Mart, I'm told.

[MADem]

93. I've bought hundreds of DVDs through MARKETPLACE at Amazon.

I've never once had a problem, either. A lot of those folks have oddball stuff, too--like kinescopes of old TV shows, and very early movies from the pre-copyright era. If I see something available from a vendor I've done business with previously, I'll go back to them again--customer loyalty on a virtual level.

And, because my DVD purchases are used, and quite affordable, after they've made the rounds of my family, I donate them to a struggling and underfunded library to boost their collection. It's a win-win.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

9. If you treat the debit card like a check......

....you'll have no problem.

[timtom]

28. My kids have had debit cards.

The banks very cynically don't refuse a purchase when your account doesn't have enough to cover it. A credit card will tell you you're over you limit and not continue until the issue is resolved.

My kids have incurred draconian debt penalties as they blithely keep spending, not realizing the treacherous hole they have fallen into.

[grasswire]

35. the teen racked up almost $500 in penalties..

...in the first month of having a debit card.

The girl kept buying daily milkshakes. $2.99 for the milkshake, $35 for the bank overdraft. The bank allowed her to keep on buying even after the account zeroed out. As long as the bank allowed it, she kept buying. Despite getting text messages that her account was overdrawn.

[anigbrowl]

62. And how is this the bank's fault?

Maybe you should have checked your options before giving the teen the debit card (you can request automatic overdraft not be available) and counseled your teen on the dangers of plastic.

[grasswire]

65. are you really defending this rapacious industry?

Wow.

[MADem]

74. The poster is not "defending" anything. A debit card is NOT a credit card, UNLESS

the person getting it, or co-signing, AGREES to a line of credit on top of the debit availability. There's no "racking up debt" if there's no credit line associated with the card.

The poster is questioning the fiscal responsibility of the teens and the parents who made the card(s) avaiable to the children.

[anigbrowl]

76. No, I'm arguing for using common sense.

Have you ever heard of 'caveat emptor'? It's Latin for 'buyer beware', the idea that as a customer you are responsible for looking at what you're getting before you hand over your money. The bank is not there to take care of you. If they offer you some kind of service, you have a basic duty to yourself to read the terms and conditions and see if it's really a good deal or not. My bank sends me 'offers' all the time. Most of them end up in the trash because they're not good value or come with terms that I'm not willing to agree to.

I am not a great money manager by nature, I've overspent or suchlike many a time - so I've learned to be careful about it the hard way. Particularly if giving a debit card to a teen, it's the responsibility of the parent to look into the T&C and educate their offspring about how to use it and what the potential downsides are.

[anigbrowl]

61. They will, yuo have to ask them. It's something you can set up when you get the card

[MADem]

72. Not all debit cards have the "line of credit" option. You can specifically turn it down.

That's what your kids should do. No money, no love.

[Ilsa]

11. Will they take a pre-loaded debit card like Visa?

I knoww you have to pay a $4 or $5 fee up front, but if you can get it for $100 or more, you could use it for various stuff.

[skooooo]

12. Just keep credit card paid off..

And it's really no big deal.

:shrug:

[sledgehammer]

13. A credit card is a very useful thing if you use it right

I've used credit cards for almost 15 years now. Have never made one late payment (in times of prosperity and despair). Have carried over a balance for only one month ever (about 11 years back, right out of college, job sent paycheck to wrong address, direct deposit was not set up).

My credit card is issued by my bank. Every 2-3 days I log into my bank account and check my credit card balance. I monitor it like a hawk. Every week or two, I make sure I transfer money from my checking to bring the credit card balance down to zero. If I can't, there's something wrong with my spending habits and I need to figure it out. Plus, I save on ATM fees since I don't need to withdraw as much cash.

The reason I give you this advice is because I don't think you should necessarily give up on Amazon. They have pretty good prices, and offer free shipping on a lot of stuff. Plus, the Amazon Marketplace is great to buy/sell used stuff. Way better than eBay.

Another alternative, as others have suggested, is to use a Visa/MC debit card. They are pretty safe these days. And you are usually covered to some extent if there's some unauthorized usage.

[timtom]

101. No. No. I resolved the issue with Amazon right after

posting this thread.

I love Amazon. Their customer service is the best (when you get a good English speaker) and the used books I've bought would make a small library.

I thought they had screwed me on payment method, but it turned out it was a server issue.

eBay? Never happen! I don't believe in PayPal for one thing.

[WeDidIt]

14. I use my checking account debit card

Comes right out of checking.

[roody]

15. Please support your locally-owned businesses.

[timtom]

17. THIS is the solution I shall adopt.

Thanks.

[MADem]

21. No. See post 20, above. I will only support local businesses that

provide comparable product at a similar price, or offer some "value added" that makes it worth my while to shop there.

Businesses are not charities. If they can't compete, they need to go home. The paradigm is shifting. It'll be painful while it's sorted out. That's life.

[Missy Vixen]

50. I used to own a business

There's two sides to every story. Interestingly enough, mine's different than yours. There are a few reasons why I finally closed the doors, but the most problematic was unreasonable customers.

>Businesses are not charities. If they can't compete, they need to go home.<

There's a difference between "competing", and someone who's just plain unreasonable. We've all met them. I've had them in my former store. I did what I could do to make them happy, and then there comes a time when you have to realize you've done your best, and the best thing you can do for yourself and the business is let them go elsewhere. They're not going to be happy there, either.

[MADem]

58. I am not an unreasonable customer.

"Do you have X?" is not an unreasonable question.

"Look around over there" or "I dunno" are not reasonable responses.

What's worse is when you call ahead, and they lie to you. "Sure, we have that," when they don't.

That's not fun.

If the person doesn't have what the customer wants, they should just say so. If they can special-order it, they should say so, too.

Like I said, I will WAIT for stuff if I get that "value-added," like my shoes. I will gladly patronize stores that sell the unique, the rare, the odd, or who will help me track down the stuff I am looking for.

I don't berate business owners. That's a waste of my time and theirs.

If they don't have what I need, I simply go elsewhere.

[roody]

67. It is a bummer to go to Staples, isn't it?

[MADem]

69. I don't like those guys much. The Mitt Romney association gives me that

Mittsy-Shittsy cretinous feeling.

Of course, funny things happen at STAPLES every so often--see here: http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/01/17/politics/fromtheroad/entry3724226.shtml

Videos of angry Mormon Presidential candidates are, well, funny. Watching 'em lie and parse is funnier, still.

Doesn't he look like shit? Hee, hee!!!

And then the scolding by the campaign staff at the end of the tape, "warning" the reporter not to get "argumentative" with "the candidate!"

Give that reporter a RAISE!

[roody]

66. Keeping your money in your community builds a strong

community.

[MADem]

70. Giving my money away to non-competitive businesses doesn't help my community.

It merely delays the inevitable.

If a business can compete, they get my business. If they can't, they don't.

[crikkett]

85. nonsense. See my post #84.

[MADem]

89. Chambers of commerce don't always have the best interests of communities at heart.

Oftentimes, they're stuffed with Republicans wanting to make a fast buck by gaming government regs so that they can maximize their own profits.

They aren't my favorite people. Here's an example as to why: http://www.desmogblog.com/chamber-commerce-study-parrots-republican-talking-points-carbon-cap

And your argument that I should throw away a dollar because sixty four cents will stay in the community is, well, dumb. Nonsensical, at best. Why do you keep insisting that I "need" to support inefficient businesses? I don't, and propping up noncompetitive entities is a waste of my resources. Again, compete or die. Or find another line of work where you can compete. Don't expect me to "Awww, poor baby" and pay way more for crap that's not quite right or offers a poor selection.

My job is not to keep money in my community by making what amounts to defacto charitable donations of a dollar or sixty four cents. If I had spare dollars, I'd give them to my family members who could use a few bucks. Charity begins at home.

[crikkett]

95. Furthermore, see this guy's post on Corporate Personhood.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5795048&mesg_id=5798449

[crikkett]

84. My chamber of commerce sent out a statistic to that effect. For every $1 spent with a local business

64¢ stays within the local community. This was cited in our newsletter a couple of weeks ago.

Hey Madem, where do your Amazon dollars go? Seattle? London? New York?

How can that compete with the kind of economic stimulation locally-owned businesses provide?

[salguine]

22. Just use Amazon gift cards. That's what I do. You don't need to use a

credit card, it's easy, you can get 'em at Rite Aid or Duane Reade stores.

[timtom]

25. Thank you, everyone, for your responses and suggestions.

I just spoke with someone in customer service and they had been updating the payment page over the past couple of days.

I'm back in now.

Let me explain why this is valuable to me.

I can buy a lot of used/nearly new books and merchandise at fantastic prices. Prices that wouldn't be available anywhere else in this area. Textbooks for a couple of bucks that would cost up to $100 in the campus bookstore.

My bank account show realtime information, so I have a better handle on cost control.

And when you get someone who speaks English well, you've got the best customer service I've seen anywhere in my life.

I do feel guilty about purchasing from them for their political contributions and right wing stance. But, there are some here who shop at Walmart for reasons of cost. I don't, but I understand those who do.

Thanks again, everybody.

[MADem]

32. Why feel guilty? AMERICANS work for Amazon. American businesses sell things through Amazon.

AMAZON is a boon to small business people, too. Haven't you bought anything from AMAZON MARKETPLACE? Those are AMERICANS selling that stuff. Not all of them make the "wrong" political contributions, either.

People who gripe about Amazon just don't get it. It's a brave new world.

[timtom]

34. I totally agree with you.

I like your use of the Acme Buggy Whip analogy. I recently looked at the whole Kindle/Sony Reader issue and thought that the newspaper industry should/should have looked seriously at this as a new means of distribution of their printed matter. It would require lowering the cost of these readers significantly, but the volume would make up for the price difference.

[MADem]

46. I remember the birth of "POCKET CALCULATORS!!!"

A friend of mine had one. We all OOOOHED and AAAAAHED!!!

Texas Instruments. It could add, subtract, multiply AND divide!!!

It was about as wide and long as a pack of cigarettes, and about half the thickness.

It cost a hundred and ten bucks.

Years later, I opened a bank account. They gave me a calculator for free with my checkbook--it was the size of a credit card and did square roots!

I also remember making a call on a friend's "cell" phone back in the early days of that technology. It was a huge honking receiver, and the "phone" part was the size of a NYC phone book and twenty times heavier!!!

Still, we were all impressed with the tech!

[amborin]

36. plus, Amazon killed the small book stores

[Raskolnik]

44. No, Barnes & Noble and Borders did that. n/t

[MADem]

56. Wish they'd kill the two crappy ones near me! I'd rather they changed those into a diner! nt

[donheld]

37. Debit cards rock

how you handle it is up to you.

[Dob Bole]

47. I love Amazon...

I live in a rural area...a really, REALLY rural area (town of 120 people) To get things, I have to cross the state line and pay regressive 10 percent sales tax....

OR...Amazon! I would recommend doing like some of the other posters said and get a debit card. I don't use credit cards, and wouldn't advise anyone else to.

[WildEyedLiberal]

53. I get all my DVD sets from Amazon

There are literally NO other options for buying TV series and such on DVD. I could go to Best Buy, but their selection of anything older than 3 or so years is crap. I could go to Wal-Mart, whose selection is even worse, and besides, Wal-Mart :puke:

Amazon, OTOH, has EVERYTHING, it's cheaper than retail, and arrives within 7-10 days.

I refuse to buy books online but there's really no other option if you want a DVD you can't find in stores.

[tammywammy]

57. I use a debit card. n/t

[wolfgangmo]

64. So order from Powells.com

Powells is the nations largest independent book store. Better selection and better service.

[FourScore]

68. Hmmm...

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

-- attributed to Socrates

[NeedleCast]

71. I can't wait until checks go away for good

The very hell with oldsters holding up lines with checkbooks.

[tammywammy]

83. Yeah, and getting payment on a bounced check is a PITA

Actually, the DA's office is going after the worst offender.

[LostinVA]

108. +1

[BlooInBloo]

87. (shrug) That's nice.

[Quantess]

94. Cash works everywhere I go.

[Shagbark Hickory]

105. Why don't they do it anymore?

[LostinVA]

109. They do still do it -- I checked after I read this thread the other day

You just have to "edit payment."