Its time to split the country.

[newinnm]

I believe that we are at a point in history where it may be time to relook at the face of our country and its political divisions. There are two america's. The America that wants to progress and honors our countries ideals of taking care of its citizenry, equal opportunity for all and fairness. There is also the America that is stuck in the past and wants to hold the the populace back and provide for only a few. How nice would it be to split these two factions into autonomous regions with seperate governments, seperate militaries and seperate social services.


-nnnm


Which one would you want to live in?

[WeDidIt]

1. LIAF

[QC]

2. Gee, nobody's ever posted this one before. n/t

[The_Commonist]

3. Not gonna happen...

Fuggedaboutit!

[elleng]

78. Right.

They've tried that, and now that we've REALLY got a uniter Prez, it WON'T happen.

[tridim]

4. I don't want to live next to a country full of RW/Fundie whackos.

They'd probably fire rockets at us.

[tjwash]

67. Now you know what Canada must feel like.

nt

[napoleon_in_rags]

5. Why not some moderation on this front?

I've heard this out of the right and left, but it always has to be so extreme...Secession, separate countries, etc. But a lot of people relate to the concept of having more political diversity based on region, and see how the grey mush of right-left 'compromise' in the federal government always seems to work out for big money, rarely for the people. I wish we could make this dialog more to that ends, more toward the idea of going local, without putting the idea of the United States on the line. I think it could be really fruitful, actually.

[wtbymark]

8. exactly

1. end lobbying (used to be illegal)
2. end corporate personhood and/or
3. sunset life on a corporation (people have to die, if corporations want to be persons, they have to die too)
4. Publicly financed elections

then we may get our country back

[roamer65]

6. It would be much, much worse than partitioning of India and Pakistan in 1947.

Many thousands died in the violence.

[blogslut]

7. Sorry

We did that once already.

Here's a crazy thought. How about we bring the nation together, you know, by showing the people how much they have in common and their wants/needs are pretty much universal?

[Synicus Maximus]

9. Silly idea.

That would mean we wouldn't have anyone to be mad at.

[blogslut]

11. I know!

What we need, see, are some off-planet aliens. Bad ones with ugly mugs and smelly ships. :hi:

[Aristus]

26. Vogons? Eew!

[napoleon_in_rags]

17. I relate to the OP. That unification thing tends not to work out in our favor.

Take the banking bailout:

1) Right says, corporations shouldn't be restrained, so they can make it (or not) on their own in the free market. The banks and individuals should be allowed to fail.
2) Left says, government should intervene to help victims of the banking bailout, to prevent crisis, right disagrees.

Compromise: To please right, poor victims get no help. But lest we go too far to the right, the banks aren't allowed to fail, but rather receive welfare from taxpayers to prop them up.

Result: Compromise follows neither Right wing nor Left wing principles, using socialist principles to prop up already wealthy people, rather than the poor, and violating the principles of free market capitalism.

The problem is that this is what unification seems to always look like.

[Greyhound]

21. No, we didn't. If we had let them go they would have gone broke trying

to compete with the north's industrial might and the stampede of escaping slaves would have broken their economy in less time than it took to fight that indescribably bloody war.

The south wanted to secede out of purely pig-headed pride and the obviously mistaken belief in their divine superiority. Allowing them to go would have proven the falsehood of that belief and they would have had to plea to be let back in. Oh, and we wouldn't have had to slaughter over 600,000 Americans nearly all of whom had nothing to do with the reason for the war in the first place.

As for bringing the nation together and since you are a woman, are you willing ot have your body become the property of the state? I mean in the interests of celebrating our commonality and all.

[blogslut]

24. Excuse me?

Care to explain why you would assume I would be in favor of such a thing?

[Greyhound]

31. You said, "We did that once already" to which I replied that we didn't.

I didn't assume you would be in favor of anything, I was correcting your error.

Then I followed that with my reasoning (actually a fraction of it) that not allowing the nation to split was a huge mistake. We needlessly slaughtered over 600,000 people and have been paying for that mistake ever since.

[blogslut]

32. Okay

You have fun with that.

[Greyhound]

34. I can understand your reticence,

which side was Texas on again?

[blogslut]

40. And I knew you were making a personal attack

As I said before, you have fun with that.

[Greyhound]

75. Nothing personal about it at all. You made an inaccurate statement and I corrected you.

I posited a theory and you have, apparently, chosen to interpret it as a personal attack though I never said one word about you.

If you participate on a discussion board, you should probably expect some discussion.
:eyes:

[olegramps]

43. That sounds boreing.

[TransitJohn]

10. Whenever I'm working in the South

I always hear this shit. "There's gonna be another civil war." It's also mixed up with their extreme military fetishism, and a belief that the military will intervene and quash liberals. None of this shit is gonna happen.

[Mudoria]

18. I live in the South and I never hear this "shit"

epic fail... troll elsewhere..

[TransitJohn]

19. Not troll, truth

you obviously don't run around with the sorts I'm forced to be with when I'm in Texas or Louisiana working. "Epic fail," what are you, 10?

[Selatius]

30. You can find this type of idiocy in the truly rural parts of the Deep South, like in Mississippi.

With nothing but right wing and nationalistic radio blaring all day long, people grow up with a lot of mistaken ideas and idiotic beliefs that they take seriously. Then again, you can find this stupidity in most rural parts of America, like the rural parts of Pennsylvania.

[Hangingon]

68. I live in Texas and I don't hear it.

Even though our Gov. has recently spouted off about secession

[Enthusiast]

42. Do you work in a 'blue collar' type

environment? You generally don't hear this "shit" in an office.

[TransitJohn]

45. yeah

I'm a geolgist who works wellsite.

[spoony]

46. I disagree

The worst and most hateful things I've ever heard were from people with white collar jobs. They may not say them in the office for fear of being fired, but the hate that works its way into policies and laws doesn't start on an assembly line.

[NeedleCast]

12. No

[nichomachus]

13. OK -- take your belongings and get into the truck -- you're going to Montana

[havocmom]

23. Hey, we have enough problems here!

Send OP to Disney World

[nichomachus]

48. They're full up

They already have a Goofy

[TexasObserver]

14. You're being silly.

Assuming you're serious, which is very, very difficult to believe.

[OHdem10]

15. I believe many of us experience these thoughts often these days.

[MUAD_DIB]

16. Neither. One country will do. Thanks.

[ccharles000]

20. I live in NC and I don't want to have the US split.

[Selatius]

29. I live in Mississippi currently. I don't want to be living here if the South became its own country.

I would sooner move than accept living in a Neo-Confederacy.

[tnlefty]

73. My thougts exactly. I wouldn't want to be in TN with 'states'

rights' in full force as the Klan and other hate groups have adopted that language. I can't afford to move so I prefer to remain intact as a country and have some protection of federal laws. Jeesh.

[Greyhound]

76. What if your relocation was free? If you would go, where would you like to go?

[Kievan Rus]

22. I wouldn't mind it....

As long as the parts of the country that the Dominionist wingnuts end up with do not have advanced chemical plants, bioengineering facilities, and especially nuclear power plants/nuclear engineering facilities. Because if Dominionist wingnut parts did have facilities such as those, they'd use the chemical plants to make poison gas, the bioengineering plants to create weaponized anthrax and smallpox, and the nuclear facilities to build atomic bombs and radiation weapons. And trust me, Dominionist crazies with those kinds of weapons are every bit as scary as Iran or North Korea with them...because they'd actually use them as first-strike weapons.

[Vickers]

25. Fale.

:eyes:

[madeline_con]

27. Why allow the backward assholes to have their own area?

They should be dragged into this century, kicking and screaming though they may be, and made to accept reality. Screw giving them anything except a hard time until they straighten up!

[Greyhound]

37. After 145 years of dragging them it gets tiring, then after we get through with

all that work, they're still obnoxious and really expensive to keep.

I say it's time to cut our losses and just let them wallow in their stupid.

[Selatius]

28. Google the Nine Nations of North America. Somebody has already drawn a cultural map of the US. nt

The Nine Nations of North America was a book written in 1981 by Joel Garreau. He argued the United States can be divided into 9 geographical areas that are distinct not just on economic activity but also on cultural mores and traditions. He argues by viewing the United States in this fashion, one could get a better understanding on the true nature of society in the United States.

[amandabeech]

55. He needed to break the coastal area away from Great Lakes Nation.

I grew up in rural Michigan, but have lived in Connecticut, NYC + surroundings, DC + surroundings and Harrisburg + surrounding.

There is simply NO WAY that Michigan belongs with NYC and DC. Pittsburgh, yes. Maybe Harrisburg.

Gerry Ford was from Michigan and you know what he said to NYC in the '70s. He had lots of support back home.

[Mojo_electro]

57. Wow...

This map shows that I'm Caribbean...

That must be why I've always been told that I live "too far south to be from the south" :hi:

[anonymous171]

33. Uh no. Both parties are capitalist.

Unless you are calling for some kind of anti-capitalist revolution, I don't see how your plan would fix anything. Except maybe doom millions of poor Americans to suffering and death.

[XemaSab]

35. And where is California going to be?

:crazy:

[LeftyMom]

36. The People's Republic of Produce, Pron and Pot.

If anybody wants to eat, beat off or get stoned we're charging full pop. Hello state budget surplus!

[Sebastian Doyle]

52. Northern California would be part of Cascadia, according to the "Nine Nations" theory

While Southern California would revert to Mexico, apparently.

Between BC and Humboldt county, Cascadia would certainly have the best weed supply on the planet.

[XemaSab]

62. Does Cascadia want us?

:scared:

[Sebastian Doyle]

65. Yeah, except for the Freeper counties.

Hell, we might just cede everything east of the Cascades to Dumbfuckistan or whatever the Mountain time zone will be called. Californians might want to do the same east of the Sierra Nevadas (its basically the same mountain range anyway)

[XemaSab]

66. Hate to break it to you

but you'd be getting Humboldt, Trinity, Mendocino, Napa, Sonoma, and Marin, and virtually nothing else.

You may as well give up everything east of the coast range, and ship all the freepers in Del Norte somewhere else.

[Sebastian Doyle]

69. Yeah, Del Norte might be a problem.

But Humboldt has the weed, Napa has the wine, and some of my favorite beer comes from Mendocino, so they would be welcome additions.

http://www.avbc.com/

I'm not sure where Trinity and Sonoma are exactly. Where's that crazy Bohemian Grove place at? Not sure we want that!

[proteus_lives]

38. I refuse to answer this.

You don't want to fix things or tough it out? Shame on you then.

[upi402]

39. All war, all the time. A FAUX news orgy

welcome!

[cali]

41. not this stupid shit again.

[scheming daemons]

44. Um... those "two Americas" are not separated by any borders...

...they're intermingled.

You can't separate them without forcing half the country to move.

[Robb]

47. Can we just split it between

grammar nazis and randomly-inserting-apostrophes people?? :banghead:

[XemaSab]

50. If it came down to armed conflict

one side has all the gun's. :scared:

[Greyhound]

81. You're a dingbat! n/t

:rofl:

Unless you're a different Robb, in which case,:blush:

[uppityperson]

49. A better question is: Which would YOU want to live in?

and how would you suggest it be split?

[Cleita]

51. Shouldn't all those Christian fundies, who are trying to change this

country into a theocracy get their own state, kind of like the Palestinians want? I suggest we give them Utah, south eastern Idaho and eastern Nevada. They don't need a democracy because Pat Robertson and the head Mormon guy can be their co-kings and dictate their laws and rules. Of course any women, who don't want to be church ladies, can get refugee status in the USA. The other ones can be content with their long sleeved, long skirted baggy dresses because they will be constantly pregnant and chained to child rearing and domestic chores. Every male will have a gun that they can carry openly, however, they won't have a vote because there no longer is democracy, but that's the way they want it, so they shouldn't whine. They can have their Ten Commandment monuments anywhere they want. Those who don't obey can be tried by the religious kangaroo court and be stoned on the spot, just like in the Bible. I'm sure they will love it. The ones who don't want to move there and live among us, will have to abide by our laws and not interfere in our government.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

53. What? And, be "second rate" powers with no wars to fight?

And, no need to have bloated militaries?

[anigbrowl]

54. It's time to give up on silly propositions that have no chance of becoming reality

Every society has tensions between liberal and conservative members, not least because the socioeconomic imperatives of rural and urban dwellers are very different. 'solutions' like the OP are just an expression of a desire for the other people to go away, and make no sense on our small and highly networked planet. In the worst case, what you end up with North Korea: to the extent that the people you dislike are isolated, they can become a threat outside of their own border.

[BigBluenoser]

56. Will the 2nd amendment be upheld...

in Progressia?

Seriously, this choice of one of two pre-packaged & branded ideological baskets in US politics sucks the big brown asshole. Diversity of political thought needs to be encouraged (not on DU, but in the USA) and it would be nice to have more shades in the political spectrum (Which is why I thing the existence of the DLC is a good thing, there really should be at least two dem parties and 2 pub parties). While I could never vote for the Theocrats, and I generally support liberal policies, I do stray off on my own quite a bit too.

I think I would try to move to Indepentia if this type of thing were tried, can we have 3 countries?

[anonymous171]

58. The entire western United States should secede

The Northeast and South have been holding our nation back for most of the 20th century. It's time we left them in behind and formed a new coalition of states dedicated to progress, conservation, and freedom. Also pot.

[Cleita]

60. Yeah, but what would we do with Arnold.

Actually, the eastern states are progressive. The eastern and western states should join with Canada and leave the middle states to Jesus. Of course this has been suggested before, a country of middle America and most of the southern states and call it Jesusland.

[anonymous171]

61. It's not a matter of progressivism.

Culturally, the west is quite different from the east and south. We aren't as obsessed with the past and with controlling our citizens' lives (whether it's through heavily regulating abortion or extreme gun control laws.) We value the environment and the worker. Also, by "West" I mean every state west of Texas (Montana, Colorado, Utah, Nevada, Washington, Oregon, California etc.)

But really this is all just political daydreaming. I like America the way it is right now.

[Cleita]

63. In a way it's not a bad idea to split the country into regions under maybe

a commonwealth type of agreement. If George Bush was President of the south east for instance, he wouldn't have been able to go to war so handily because the other three fourths of the military he might need would belong to the other three regions and he would have to get their Presidents to agree to being his ally. I doubt if he could have gotten agreement there. However, if there were a real threat I'm sure all regions would band together to fight the enemy. Also, why is it that Canada has to send troops to our wars because we are neighbors but Mexico doesn't?

[Greyhound]

80. Except California, they are obsessed with controlling every aspect of their citizen's lives.

You ever lived there?

It's a sticky proposition, we really need Cali for it's agriculture and seaports but the agricultural sections are the red parts.

[anonymous171]

86. Oops, forgot about Cali.

Yeah, that does throw a monkey wrench in everything doesn't it?

[krabigirl]

59. Yikes, this is as bad as Chuck Norris wanting a revolution.

[Hekate]

64. I thought that issue was settled in the 1860s. It always seems very strange to me...

... to have it come up, whether in Alaska or here at DU.

Madness.

Hekate

[Greyhound]

82. That's the problem, we won the war but the issue was never settled.

Spend some time down south, mingling with the aborigines. For them, it is all still very personal, very recent, and still a big issue.

[TexasObserver]

70. Hit and Run Flamebait.

Can we all agree on that?

[AlexanderProgressive]

71. Lincoln would not be proud of you

Secession is against our Democratic principles. I don't know how you can even imagine doing such a thing.

[Greyhound]

77. Umm... Lincoln was a Republican. n/t

[AlexanderProgressive]

84. Republicans suck now. Republicans didn't suck in 1865

Your approach is simplistic. In the 1860's, the progressive party was the Republican Party. We DU'ers would have been Republican in the 1860's, because the Democrats back then were the party of the racist South.
Then things changed sometime in the 20th centry, and now the Democratic Party is the party of equality, rights, and the Republicans are the warmongering, anti-minority Party.

Lincoln is one of the greatest, if not the greatest, Presidents of all time.

[Greyhound]

85. Ah, you meant small 'd' democratic.

OK, but I do not see how secession is against any democratic principle that I'm aware of. Quite the contrary, what could be more democratic than to allow those that no longer wish to participate to cease?

Excluding them would be contrary to those principles, but letting them go seems perfectly democratic.

[BlooInBloo]

72. Fuck all of those who want to destroy the country.

[lib2DaBone]

74. The problem is with the media that is promoting one side against the other...

News organizations never made money. (They were'nt expected to)

There was at one time, a thing known as "Journalists" of "reporters".

Today, in the Corp/Gov world..News must make a profit. Enter FOX TV.

And of course, it's a monkey-see, monkey-do world. If Fox News Makes money.. you can bet CNN, NBC and ABC will copy the modus operandi.. no matter how sick or perverted it is.

That is where we are today. There are, no more, any such creatures as a 'Reporter', or even a journalist who posees as a real reporter.

The 5th Estate died many years ago. Even Geraldo Rivera gave up the search for Al Capone's vault ...because he knew there was no money to be made ...unless you were a school teacher having sex with 12-year-old student or a Senator having sex in a mens room stall at the Denver airport.

[mitchum]

79. Flamebait and run, eh?

[Name removed]

83. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.