If the idea of Natural Medicine or Cures makes you crazy...

[kimmerspixelated]

i.e., you can't control being rude and insulting on forums, what exactly in your experience has brought you to behave this way? All negative behavior has a source of bad experience, usually, so what has brought on your opinions in such a strong way?

To say, "It's just stupid," is a copout with no real information.

I'm just curious why certain folks are almost violent with their opinions regarding this obviously quite controversial subject.

Not everyone that fits this category is a pharma shill, so there must be another reason.

Thanks for participating.

[BuyingThyme]

1. Link please.

Thank you.

:hi:

[tabatha]

2. Good question - looking forward to the responses.

[mike_c]

3. I'm a scientist....

Show me the data.

Seriously, most "natural medicine" that I'm aware of is either supported primarily by anecdotal sources or by limited, biased, or otherwise pretty shaky clinical data, often with difficult to standardize treatments.

If someone suggests that waving incense over their aura cures cancer, I want to see controlled clinical trials and a mode-of-action study or two before I ditch the chemo.

That is my personal bias.

[quakerboy]

33. +1

It seems like many of them even go to great legnths to avoid any real verifiability.

[JuniperLea]

84. 30% or so would be cured of many things...

Because of the placebo effect. Isn't that the percentage that draws the line in clinical trials?

I think we need to focus more attention on the placebo effect if anything! Seems to me that if a placebo effect could "accidentally" cure people of disease, intentional body through mind manipulation is where we should be putting our money.

[dorkulon]

135. The placebo effect involves fooling people.

Seems to me you can't make much of a case for "alternative" treatments is you start out by admitting they only work if you fool people into believing they work.

[chimpyisstillsatan]

141. the placebo effect is scientifically demonstrable

and that does not negate the value of other therapies. It can, however complicate clinical trials of either "natural" or man-made therapies. This is why we "power" trials appropriately and run the proper control arms.

[dorkulon]

142. I get that.

What I'm saying is that people cite the placebo effect as evidence of some holistic energy-healing hokum. In other words, they'd say, if people think an aura massage will work, it will, to some degree. But that doesn't say anything about the actual effectiveness of the treatment--especially if it were performed on a skeptic.

[chimpyisstillsatan]

143. exactly. thanks. nt

[Strong Atheist]

272. Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[JuniperLea]

248. The fact remains they are cured, and by using their own minds...

Just because they are fooled into healing their own bodies with their minds isn't the issue.

[dorkulon]

250. Nor is any specific treatment.

Firstly, I don't think there are any cases where people are "cured" outright by placebo. Placebo just tends to make them feel better.

Second, the fact that it does work to some extent doesn't have anything to do with whatever "treatment" is administered. So it's not evidence that any treatment works. In other words, if I could convince you that waving a stick at you is making you better, it might. But that isn't evidence that the stick-waving treatment has any inherent healing qualities.

And placebo itself is not some kind of magic. It is a physiological process.

[and-justice-for-all]

88. Thank You!! nt

[Stellabella]

94. Exactly. Controlled, double-blind clinical studies are the only proof needed.

Most, if not all, of the 'natural medicine' purveyors won't submit to that, so that alone is a strong point against them. The only point I need.

[Juche]

100. I have a couple problems with that statement.

1. Allopathic medicine is also plagued by 'limited, biased or shaky clinical data'. That is what happens when the corporations that run medical research and pharmaceuticals get too close to clinical science.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/PrintArticle.php?articleId=10846

2. You can find double blind and mechanism of action studies on alternative medicine at pubmed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19500070?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19190401?ordinalpos=6&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19016404?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=2&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18416077?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17302963?ordinalpos=15&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

etc

[mike_c]

180. oh I completely agree with your statement #1....

Like I said, I want to see data. When the data are available, I'm fully competent to judge them myself. My problem is with products that lack solid clinical data, and with anecdotal and other marketing claims being substituted for clinical good clinical efficacy data.

On a personal note, I treat my gout with allopurinal, vitamin C, acupuncture, and diet. The allopurinal demonstrably restricts uric acid production, the vitamin C increases uric acid excretion, and the accupuncture..., well-- five thousand years of empirical data counts for something, don't you think, even if my acupuncturist claims to be treating "excess heat in my liver and kidneys" rather than the faulty uric acid metabolism that western medicine addresses.

[defendandprotect]

102. You don't realize that our plants are our medicines and always have been?

And that there is no medicine produced which isn't linked to a plant?

But, usually with a longer list of side effects and more dangerously so.

[truedelphi]

104. Apparently he doesn't.

And several others were quite eager to join him.

[mike_c]

177. oh for pete's sake, I'm a biologist....

Of course I understand the role of plant biochemistry in supplying pharmaceutical models. That said, I'd take paclitaxel before I'd chew on yew needles, or even take capsules of ground up yew. The former is chemotherapy-- the later is slow suicide.

You're a bit over the top with the statement that all medicines are derived from plants, however. Many of the most important are derived from other sources, like microbial sources. Many antibiotics, for example.

[defendandprotect]

195. So what you're saying is you have a stronger belief in sysnthethic

treatments than natural . . .

These are still natural life forms . . .
noun any organism too small to be viewed by the unaided eye, as bacteria, protozoa, and some fungi and algae.

[snooper2]

157. Did thermite come from plants

:rofl:

[AngryAmish]

163. Lithium comes from what plant?

Gold (do they still give gold shots for rheumatoid arthritis)? Calcium supplements?

[Recursion]

186. The lithium mostly comes from animals

It's a urine by-product. Pharmaceutical lithium salts don't come from mines.

[AngryAmish]

223. How do you like that

I didn't know that. Fascinating. Thanks.

[Recursion]

225. Few pure elements (or simple salts) are "natural" in the way people seem to use that word

That is, you're not going to go digging and find, say, aluminum; you'll find bauxite from which you then have to extract aluminum.

[AngryAmish]

230. So how do you find lithium in a horse?

Do they feed them rocks (ground up) with lithium in them and then filter the urine to get it out?

And do they use boy horses or girl horses? Some other pharmaceutical comes from mare's urine and I always though catching that would be tricky - do they catheterize the mare and just empty the jug when it gets full? A stallion would be easier with a condom-type catheter, but that would get itchy.

Anyway, it is a shame this board does not discuss horse-urine collecting all the time.

[Recursion]

232. Organisms break down substances when we digest them

There are trace amounts of lithium in the soil, which get taken up by plants and stored in plant tissue. The plants are eaten by horses (or rats, or whatever) and the molecules are broken down and reassembled (that's how eating gives us energy). In the case of lithium, it makes a salt with a halogen (chlorine I think; I'd have to look it up) which then gets filtered out by the kidneys and becomes part of the acid in the urine.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

240. Is that going to be a chapter in your thesis?

You're just making this up as you go along, aren't you?

[dysfunctional press]

165. that doesn't mean that you can get the same effects from just ingesting the plant matter.

unless in many cases you'd want to consume it by the truckload to get an effective dose of a particular substance.

[Maru Kitteh]

206. Don't you ever get tired of being so wrong?

Bacteriophage treatments (not widely utilized in the states - viruses injected to fight bacteria)
Gene therapy
Stem cell therapy
Lithium
Interstitial radiation therapy
Testosterone (and other hormones)
Various insect and reptile venoms
Atryn (human protein produced in the milk of genetically modified goats)
Drugs produced by gen modified yeast
pure synthetics way too numerous to name here


From the Anais da Academia Brasileira de Ciências:

Of the 252 essential chemicals that have been selected by the World Health Organization, 11.1% come from plants, and 8.7% from animals.


11.1% from plants. You are 98.9% wrong. Ouch.

[SidDithers]

210. Ouch indeed...

good post. :applause:

Sid

[NeedleCast]

217. This entire thread should have ended after your post

Really don't need to go much beyond it.

[Recursion]

233. Don't you mean 88.9% wrong?

:)

[Maru Kitteh]

241. Ha! Fingurs ant brayn nod cordinaded. lol.

[Wizard777]

262. Those would all be a natural models to which plants are just one source.

So they weren't entirely right but not entirely wrong either. We have yet to produce a 100% pure synthetic. Something for which their is no natural model. Something that doesn't have a cell structure or mineral base etc. Even if you pull a synthetic out of your ass. The natural model for that is shit. ;-)

[fascisthunter]

269. d'oh

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

278. Where are you people getting this crap?

Cis-platin, the cancer wonder drug, has no natural model.

Sure, cis-platins come from atoms, so if you're saying atoms are natural then sure, cis-platin is natural. But that's absurd.

The radiation therapy, mentioned in the post you're responding to, has no natural model.

[truedelphi]

103. Hamden Rice made an excellent statement last week to the effect that

Those natural substances that do effect the body in a positive way end up being labelled "medicine"

So then those items are no longer items considered as being part of the alt medicine scene. And then, people who wish to, can rant and rave that the damn herbal movement doesn't do anything beneficial, or the herbs do too much (ie kill the person using them)

Among examples of alternative medicines that became mainstream -
willow bark (which is where we get aspirin)
poppies (which is where we get opiates)
foxglove (which is where we get digitalis)

[defendandprotect]

125. And where would our medical industry be without that stuff - including surgeons--!!!

Could any serious knee surgery be done without heroin?

Or any other surgery?

[truedelphi]

216. You would be amazed at the crap some HMO's do to prevent patients

From having narcotics!

As an elder care worker, I had as a patient a woman whose leg had been amputated some 96 hours before. She was given Tylenol for her pain! Tylenol!

Her family spent a week looking for a doctor to give her a stronger pain med. And finally someone came through with a morphine patch.

It would not surprise me one bit if that same HMO, Kaiser Permanente, did knee surgery just by giving you a stick to bite on and a shot or two of Jack Daniels.

And then there is the OTHER hospital in Marin County CA. That hospital's supply cabinets contained band aids labeled "Sterile" but since the dating on the band aid package indicated they were over ten years old, they simply could not count as being sterile.

That was some five years ago. I was quite pleased to read the paper yesterday and discover that Marin General was not up to code when the state inspectors came through recently.

[defendandprotect]

243. wow...

[diamidue]

118. "aura cures cancer"

Well, that is insulting.

Science and their chemical drugs are killing thousands of people every year. No progress in Cancer in over 50 years. Of course there is shaky clinical data: The medical establishment has done everything they could to suppress alternative methods. Imprison, humiliate, drive them out of the country. Shameful. Don't come on here all holier than thou. Your "science" is no better than my "nature".

100,000 pharmaceutical representatives out there pushing their drugs to doctors. Once you've taken the chemo, your body is probably too poisoned to use alternative methods. Poison never "cures" anything.

And that is my bias.

[defendandprotect]

126. I'm with you . . .

in fact, I've had a drug make me quite ill --

would you believe a HBP medicine with "Brazilian Snake Venom" in it -- by Novartis!!????

From what I see at the health food stores, it is people trying to recover from damage

done to them by pharmaceutical companies whose only concern seems to be raking in the dough!


I've just also been reading a new book by Jim Marrs/Rise of the Fourth Reich and

he makes this interesting connection to Hitler's originally being very health conscious

re Germany. They also did cancer studies. Might also be why capitalism fears socialists!

I'll PM it to you because I can't print this much directly from a book.

Good luck!

PS: Don't take Diovan or Lotrel --

and if you are taking anything check it out first at http://www.askapatient.com

[PVnRT]

131. How many lives does medicine save?

How many deaths are caused using "natural" medicine in lieu of science?

Funny that we never seem to hear that side of it from the anti-science crowd around here.

[SidDithers]

146. "No progress in Cancer in over 50 years"...

it's statements like this that keep the alt-med contingent from being anything but a joke.

Sid

[Forkboy]

211. Yep

[dysfunctional press]

166. "Science and their chemical drugs are killing thousands of people every year."

:eyes:

being unable to save someone from a terminal illness is a much different thing than actively "killing them".

personally- it doesn't bother me one bit when people choose holistic healing methods- there are already too many people on the planet as it is, and it's nice to see people want to voluntarily give up their space for the rest of us.

[Maru Kitteh]

209. Where do you people come up with this stuff?

No progress in cancer in 50 years? Are you very, very young or do you just live in total isolation? Survival rates for nearly ALL kinds of cancer have SOARED in the last 20 years in particular, thanks to MODERN MEDICINE.

No progress? Bullshit, just, bull. shit.

[Wizard777]

263. Chiron, Asclepius, and Hermes Trismegistus would disagree with your dissertare on poison.

The serpent upon the original Caduceus of the apothecary is symbolic of venom or poison. That the person is skilled in the art of it's uses. Then along came pharmco and added their serpent to the caduceus to symbolize their man made poisons.

[Recursion]

171. I'm an engineer (well, an engineering grad student)

But I work with scientists.

A) The human body is an extremely complex nonlinear system and trials that truly eliminate all but one variable can't be run

B) Confirmation bias (particularly when gobs of money are at stake) is a huge problem -- think of the glycerin trials or the first decade or so of AZT trials

C) I'll be frank that I think pharma research is way, way too tainted with money from people who want a specific result from trials (see part B above)

D) Statistically valid correlations may still be meaningless for an individual situation (again, nonlinearity)

E) Toxic, environmental, and behavioral cofactors or pure agents are systematically excluded from too many studies, not out of malice but because nobody makes any money from solving them so nobody pays for studies into them

My short answer is that I believe very strongly in the scientific method, but I don't think we're using it for pharmaceuticals.

[mike_c]

178. on the face of it...

...I agree with every statement you've made. Any research model that's driven by profit is likely to be tainted to some degree, ESPECIALLY when it's conducted in a corporate environment rather than an academic one. I just think the situation is even worse for most "natural remedies," for which confirmation bias is driven by both profit and philosophical motives.

Like I said in my initial response, which most folks seem to have missed: "I want to see the data." I'm fully competent to judge the meaning of the efficacy data myself.

[truedelphi]

242. Very much in agreement with you.

THough when you write out that: E) Toxic, environmental, and behavioral cofactors or pure agents are systematically excluded from too many studies, not out of malice but because nobody makes any money from solving them so nobody pays for studies into them.

I would like to additionally point out that Corporations deliberately have misled the EPA over what chemicals are in the formulation of the product. For instance, RoundUp contained Formaldehyde during the seventies, eighties and probably the nineties too, but Monsanto "forgot" to mention that to the EPA when it applied for the initial license from the EPA back in the early seventies. Since Formaldehyde is one of the Prop 65 chems in California, this means that during the eighties, RoundUp would probably not have been allowed for sale to anyone but licensed pesticide specialists.

Then a lot of people do not realize that the tests that the Corporation uses to show that the product is benign are done by that company itself! So again, using Roundup as an example, the Monsanto Corporation took glyphosate, a major component of the formula, and they fed it to dogs, knowing full well that the stomach lining would prevent a good deal of the harm that might result from the dogs ingesting the glyphosate. I mean, the problem with RoundUp (as with any aerosolized herbicide) is that it floats around in the air, and so can get into someone's lungs. Monsanto was careful not to set up any studies regarding that scenario - as the lungs do not act as a shield from chemical absorption.

[defendandprotect]

244. Scientific method is merely observation . . .

but, re E . . . long time ago -- 15 years or more - they were doing tests on results

of some medication they were giving intraveneously -- and correctly found that the

PLASTIC tubes and delivery system PLASTIC POUCHES, etc. were contamininating the

medicines and, needless to say, would be harmful to the patients.

Have you noticed them gone from our hospitals?

Pharmaceutical companies are only concerned with the money pouch -- they'll poison you

to make a buck!

[Wizard777]

265. It's a cycloniclinearistic system. A linear progression of moving circles.

But this observation comes from two science I have founded. Cycloniclineristicparadigmology and cycloniclinearisticpardoxology. The study of circles, cycles, and lines. Their similarities and differences. Lines are almost a foreign concept to nature. Even the lines present in Crystals are produced by cycles.

[RedCloud]

251. Science is locked by the shackles of its own imagination.

Until things are discovered by a prohibitive majority, they are most recalcitrant to accept some things. Then comes the tried and traditional. If other scientists are not into this why should I be?

Question: Have we gone to the ends of time and gathered all future knowledge and past and decided what is the correct path? Is our numbering system helpful? Do languages inhibit how fast we can communicate? When we seek extraterrestrials must we seek humanoid types i.e. radio waves, signals, messages through our sense organs only?


For the OP and your challenge without data from others:

Here is some stuff around from the dinosaur age and before. I tried it. I now have normal blood pressure. The second day was a doozie as my blood really went back to work.

http://www.earthworkshealth.com/

[Wizard777]

261. Not until you get over that "personal bias." There is no room for that in Science.

As for that "aura" you shoo shoo away. We can now photograph them. Interestingly enough. When they photograph people with severed limbs. The aura of the severed limb is still there. What I'm wondering is if the Aura remains after they have killed the nerves in the stump? Could the phantom pains be the brain still sensing the presence of the aura?

[Mari333]

4. My skepticism is higher when it comes to Big Pharma and their claims

I will stick with some of the natural remedies that have worked for me.

[cali]

8. big pharma may suck, but when it comes to any serious ailment

give me someone with standard medical training and a knowledge of the drugs big pharma manufactures.

[Mari333]

19. its just a matter of balance for me

I take synthroid for hypothyroidism. I have no problem with excellent meds when needed. I have also seen any number of mishaps and poor judgement on the part of professionals not only in my experience but other peoples. it really boils down to doing a lot of your own research and not blindly following every piece of advice given by either professionals or others. :)

[Bill McBlueState]

51. you do your own research?

How do you compensate the participants in your double-blind studies? That alone must get pretty expensive.

[Mari333]

82. I am only concerned with my own well being.

I just dont blindly follow the advice of a general practitioner without checking every other option because I prefer to be responsible for myself, rather then follow people blindly.

[MineralMan]

24. OK. That's your choice.

What natural remedy would you suggest for a child with leukemia? I mean, the poisonous chemotherapy used to treat it is so horrible. Never mind that the cure rate is in the 90% range. It's just awful. No child should be subjected to such poison. So, if there's a natural remedy, I'm sure it would be well received. :sarcasm:

[Mari333]

27. take a chill pill and read my other post. nt

[ContinentalOp]

59. Do you know a good natural chill pill?

Because valium and vicodin work pretty well.

[SammyWinstonJack]

60. Marijuana

:smoke:

[NashVegas]

63. Valerian (sp?)

And of course, Yoga works wonders.

[ContinentalOp]

64. And hey, what do you know... in chill PILL form, it's manufactured by...

a pharmeceutical company! http://www.solvaypharmaceuticals-us.com/products/marinolproductinformation/0,998,12413-2-0,00.htm

Not available in the supplement section at Whole Foods unfortunately.

[defendandprotect]

105. ...and, of course, an excellent example of natural vs synthetic . . .

synthetic is a dud.

Presume all marijuana, basically, still is organic?

And organic vs pesticides/chemicals thrown all over them is another excellent

example of destruction of the nutrition of our food. Synthetic food is a dud.

Of course, the exploiters have worked for generations to convince people that

Lil Mary in the woods gathering herbs was just a whaacko --


Indeed, Jim Marrs comments on this aspect of Hitler's threat to capitalism in

his embrace of natural foods -- before they put the brakes on him.

In fact, Hitler was after a non-alcoholic beer for Germans!!

[Mari333]

81. sex and valerian root. nt

[ContinentalOp]

98. Do you know where I can score some sex pills? -nt-

[Mari333]

130. when you have an orgasm, oxytocin is released

it occurs naturally in your own body


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxytocin

you might try running also. endorphins.

[ContinentalOp]

181. I can see humor is useless here. -nt-

[JuniperLea]

85. Oh, there is a wonderful and very long list...

Take a walk on the beach, or some other environment you enjoy.

Mary J

Valarian Root

Chamomile Flowers (This has a stronger effect on me than Valium! I'm not kidding)

Meditation (Even my hard-headed, scientific thinking father goes for this one now)

Visualization

Massage

Sex

If you make it through the first three and find no relief, it's time to find a really good therapist. I generally put that action further down on the list, because I would rather explore the less expensive options first.

Valium and Vicodin are poison! Really... they rob your system of all sorts of necessities.

[ContinentalOp]

99. Hey, I'm not the one who prescribed a chill PILL.

I prescribe 2 tbsps of joke detection tonic to anyone who seriously replied to the vicodin/valium comment. Those are pretty awesome poisons though btw. Really.

[Maru Kitteh]

74. "Herbal "supplement" corporations rake in $20+ billion dollars annually. They are big business.

Do you ever wonder, with that kind of cash-roll why these so called remedies have apparently NO interest whatsoever in funding scientific research to support their claims or measure their "natural" remedies effectiveness? Could it be because they have no interest in putting themselves out of business by funding legitimate studies that would no doubt reveal that they are just snake oil in feel-good rainbow wrappers?

The multi-billion dollar supplement industries are seldom held accountable for the damage they do and never seem interested in addressing cases like this one:

"Sue Gilliatt thought herbal remedies were safe. Then, her nose was burned off by one.

"I've had seven surgeries," Gilliatt says.

Gilliatt used an herbal paste called "bloodroot" to treat a pink area on her nose, which she thought might be cancer, until she could get to a doctor.

"After a few days the edges of the tissue started to lift off and I lost my entire nose cartilage. The nostrils were gone," Gilliatt says.

Her case is extreme, but Hurley says his analysis of data from the U.S. Poison Control Centers show a million and a half people have suffered adverse reactions to vitamins and herbal supplements since 1983."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/15/eveningnews/main2359540.shtml

[SidDithers]

87. Yup, Big Vitamin is all about profits, too...nt

Sid

[PVnRT]

140. Shhhhhhh....that's the dirty little secret they like to ignore (n/t)

[Grinchie]

145. That story smells like a cat box.

So whats the breakdown between Herbal Supplements and Vitamins? Why do they lump them together without clarification?

Adverse reactions, means what exactly? I know people that have adverse reactions to Scented Laundry Detergent, Cat Dander, Pollen, Microparticulates, Smog, Polyurethane, Poison Oak, Latex etc.

Plants contain some of the most complicated substances on earth, some good, some bad, but the facts are that they do have biological effects which can trigger healing reactions such as the herxheimer reaction, commonly known as a healing crisis.

We are now finding that tiny amounts of pharmaceuticals and other compounds like Roundup can affect or systems in miniscule quantities, so why would plant compounds be any different?

Since millions of people have been taking vitamins, multivitamins, and herbal supplements for centuries, I tend to look at this story as just another Corporate pudd piece meant to instill fear, uncertainty and doubt is those trusting individuals that are unable to do their own research.

I know several knowledgeable herbalists personally, and they are fully aware of the effects that herbs can have on the human organism. Thye don't take Herbs for granted, and treat them with the same respect Eli Lilly did in the early part of the 20th century when they sold Herbs instead of drugs.

[BlooInBloo]

5. No different that "intelligent design" and other hocus pocus shit...

Show the data, or shut the fuck up.

[BuddhaGirl]

10. why that language?

no need for rudeness...making the OP's point. :shrug:

[BlooInBloo]

11. Uh... I always use that language.

[dionysus]

58. rofl

:rofl:

[Ghost in the Machine]

55. it's a sign of lack of having anything intelligent to say..

:hi:

[omega minimo]

57. There are some good bits in there sometimes

it's just tricky sorting them out..... or random..... or sumthin :shrug:

[BuddhaGirl]

80. Agreed!!

:hi:

[Irreverend IX]

6. What do you mean by natural medicine or cures?

Some "natural remedies" have been proven through experimentation to have an effect on human health. Others have been proven not to have any measurable effect on the body, and thus function as a placebo at best. Peddling placebos to the gullible has always been a profitable business, and some people get annoyed at the purveyors of quack remedies for the same reasons that they get annoyed at the Church of Scientology or Amway. But I don't think it should be a cause for such aggravation, because those who separate fools from their money are carrying out the holy will of Charles Darwin.

[Confusious]

28. Your on the wrong board. n/t

[Maru Kitteh]

75. those who separate fools from their money are carrying out the holy will of Charles Darwin.

Now THAT is damned funny. :rofl:

Honestly, if grown adults want to kill themselves with hocus pocus creams and pills, I'm not one to stand in their way. I part company with that view when it comes to children though, as in the case of that whacka-doodle mom who almost succeeded in killing her boy suffering from Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma with voodoo pills and magic water. Children should be protected from adults who would kill them with snake oil.

[JuniperLea]

86. Umm... Placebos work in some people...

So they are a valid thing to look into, don't you think?

[cali]

7. I'mnotagainst it across the board but I've recently had a bad experience

My friend has seen a natural healer for years. Recently she told her that if she didn't do such and such she'd be dead within six months and she steered her to some oral surgeon who charges 5x more than anyone else, telling her that this guy was the only person who could do what she needed done. When my friend's daughter-in-law called this person and told her what she thought of her treatment of her mother-in-law, the natural healer person took it out on my friend by telling her she was too "out of control" and she was advising the practioner she had recommended, not to treat her. It was just a horrible mess.

[Cha]

9. Ah, a rational approach to the

Nature Cure..and a very good question.

I've had good results over the last 30 years with prevention and curing my ills with natural remedies. I realize it isn't for everyone..to each own because I wouldn't want to force anything on anybody.

[Confusious]

30. Yea, you can't use the rational approach with a nature cure...

because then the cure would loose its "MAGIC" ZOW BAM!

[enki23]

12. because the ignorance behind the "natural cures" bullshit hurts people. sometimes kills them.

so, you'll just have to forgive us for being so "rude" as to be honest about it.

so, let's see: vaccine avoidance is massively fucking dangerous. herbal medicines are almost always bullshit, due to (most often) a near-complete lack of safety testing, efficacy testing, and standardization. the few that have been decently studied have nearly all failed to show reasonable efficacy. those that have been studied and found to have reasonable safety and efficacy are what we call "medicine." ditto for vitamin megadoses. homeopathy is bullshit based on fucking sympathetic magic. magnets are, likewise, not fucking magic. while we're on the subject of magic... reiki is neither "natural," nor a "cure." none of the myriad "energy" therapies are, for that matter. the war's over. vitalism lost. condolonces.

as a side note, "pharma shills" aren't going to bother coming here to argue with you. though they might well come here to do market research for their own line of "natural cures" bullshit. i have no illusions that merck is above pandering to fools for an easy dollar. the only thing i can imagine which might stop them is that they, like the sane among us, are pretty fucking inredulous about the disgraceful and dangerous lack of regulation in the "natural cures" arena. they probably don't want to be left holding the bag of bullshit when and if we, as a society, wise up and nail the fucking quacks to the wall.

and, gosh, just cover your ears when you read the naughty words. might help.

[KittyWampus]

13. what do you say to all the women who got cancer from hormone replacement therapy?

[BuddhaGirl]

16. good point!

:thumbsup:

I would also add there are many other debilitating and often fatal side effects from pharma drugs.

[enki23]

17. what would you say to all the people who murdered in Darfur?

And how about those damned Cubs, eh? Red herrings, all around!

Sometimes we make mistakes in medicine. Sometimes we fail to test therapies sufficiently, or the effects are too subtle to easily show up in standard clinical trials. Therefore, it must follow that we should turn away from testing completely. In the same way, when some of our vehicles turn out to be unsafe, we should skip the seatbelts in favor of burning sage and affixing plastic fucking Jesuses on our dashboards.

[MineralMan]

20. Hmm...I'd say I'm terribly sorry they have cancer.

How about all the men who get prostate cancer due to the fact that they are men? What would you say to them?

What do you say to the people who get skin cancer from being in the sun before we knew that being in the sun was dangerous to your health?

What do you say to the people who, because they don't go in the sun, have diminished immune systems due to the lack of Vitamin D?

And, what do you say to the women who have had their menopause symptoms reduced to minor annoyance by HRT, but who don't get cancer?

So many questions. So few answers.

But, hey, take some of these "natural" pills and that will assure you get no dread diseases, right?

[anigbrowl]

36. 'Tu quoque' fallacy. Next!

[Strong Atheist]

273. Orly. Is that from Erfworld?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0010.html

[defendandprotect]

107. Even more, what about all that shit synthetic hormones/chemicals that end up in our water?

This crap goes thru the body of the patient taking it straight into our water --

and that includes the crap they shoot into cows and other animals -- hormones to make

them gain weight!

[BuddhaGirl]

15. natural cure/medicine has many many positive benefits

and doesn't always kill. Pharma drugs sometimes harm and kill too.

Different people like to use different things - to each his own. You can be honest without being rude.

[MineralMan]

21. Wow! I'm glad to hear that

"natural cure/medicine" doesn't always kill. That would be awful. So, it sometimes kills? Is that a recommendation, do you think?


Please think before you write.

[BuddhaGirl]

38. pharma drugs kill

more often...think about that

ANYTHING can kill. :eyes:

[Maru Kitteh]

95. Think about what? A false statement pulled out of the air? Think about this:

Tens upon tens of millions of Americans enjoy an improved quality of life and the scientifically proven life-saving effects of high quality, safe pharmaceutical drugs every single day. You think about it.

Beginning with our grandparents and great grandparents generations with insulin that saved limb and life from the painful consequences of diabetes to the eradication of small-pox to the suppression of polio and the improved treatment outcomes for tuberculosis - and continuing on to the present day promise of stem-cell treatments, and micro technologies that save patients from invasive procedures and perform delicate, lifesaving surgeries not previously possible. Few are the conditions and afflictions of human beings that find no remedy or relief with modern medicine.

If the multitude of millions who have benefited from advanced medicine had experienced even a fraction of the fail rate of natural and herbal quackery, the endeavor of scientific medicine would have ceased long ago.

There will always be a certain fraction of the populace willing to buy their medical wares from the back of a circus wagon. I suppose it can't be stopped, but I do look forward to the time it is regulated by the FDA, like aspirin and first aid cream, but less helpful.

[BuddhaGirl]

96. true, but

"Tens upon tens of millions of Americans enjoy an improved quality of life and the scientifically proven life-saving effects of high quality, safe pharmaceutical drugs every single day. You think about it."

This is true. However, millions of people use alternative medicine/herbs/supplements safely and get good results from them, myself included.

I do not discount western medicine, it has it's place. But for me, so do alternatives.

Calm down, and think about that.

[Maru Kitteh]

97. You made an absurd assertion and you can't back it up. It invites both scrutiny and ridicule.

I think somebody upthread said "think before you type." It is fine advice.

[BuddhaGirl]

101. nope

don't like alternative medicine/herbs? Don't use them.

Simple as that.

[LeftishBrit]

175. Agreed, But similarly...

don't like conventional Western medicines? Don't use them.

Simple as that.

[BuddhaGirl]

201. didn't say I didn't like them

I have said there is a place for them. I use both Western and alternative.

Reading is Fundamental...simple as that.

[LeftishBrit]

249. I was not arguing with you in particular; I was pointing out that the same comment could apply to

the hardline opponents of 'Western medicine'. (I had coincidentally used almost the exact phrase about 'if you don't like conventional medicine, don't use it' on another thread earlier in the day.) I was really replying to the question in the OP. I do find that there are a few people here who regard those who rely on 'conventional' medicine as wrong; immoral; supporters of a 'for profit' medical system if not actually profiteering ourselves; etc. I wasn't suggesting that you are one of them - just that it's not only one side that can feel attacked and even vilified for our medical choices.

[Maru Kitteh]

214. Try to follow along.

You made the absurd assertion that "pharma" (whatever the hell that means) medicines kill more often.

You couldn't back it up.

I pointed out that if modern medicine had experienced anywhere near the failure rate, by percentage, that quackery has, it would have come to end as an endeavor of humanity long ago.

You admitted I was right, but felt the need to throw in a personal comment about my presumed state of calmness.

I pointed out that your assertion invited scrutiny, and for good measure, ridicule.

You: Nope. don't like alternative medicine/herbs? Don't use them.

Simple as that.



How, for the love of Sam, does your statement make any sense in the context of our conversation? I have only, in this subthread, addressed your false assertion. What are you doing? Are you that confused?

[BuddhaGirl]

215. you too can google

but here's a start:

http://www.alternativehealth.com/hmc/prescription-drugs-can-kill.htm

"Prescription drugs are the 4th leading cause of death in USA"
-- Journal of American Medical Association (JAMA) - 15 April 1998

Your statement about my assertion inviting "ridicule" prompted me to comment about "calming down." If "ridiculing" makes you feel better, knock yourself out. :-)


Not confused at all, but thanks for the concern!

[Maru Kitteh]

221. Good to see you can snap back to intelligibility. Now go find something credible

if you wish to be taken seriously. One lonely 11 year old magazine article cited by a person on a woo-woo site with an agenda does not, an argument make.

[BuddhaGirl]

239. because the link had "alternative health" in the title

and written by an M.D.? Not good enough? It's credible to me. Well, you're entitled to your opinion...search further if you wish LOL

You really can't discount the JAMA findings.

Have fun!

[uppityperson]

22. Pharma drug has many many positive benefits and doesn't always kill

natural cure/medicine sometimes harm and kill too

Different people like to use different things - to each his own. You can be honest without being rude.

[Name removed]

280. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

109. Yes . . .

do you happen to have any experience with apple cider vinegar/mother ??

Great stuff!!

You need to take it with some honey --

Thought you might be interested in reading something about it -- ACV.

[G_j]

72. 195,000 people in the USA died due to potentially preventable, in-hospital medical errors, yearly

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/11856.php

In Hospital Deaths from Medical Errors at 195,000 per Year USA

Main Category: Litigation / Medical Malpractice
Article Date: 09 Aug 2004 - 13:00 PDT


An average of 195,000 people in the USA died due to potentially preventable, in-hospital medical errors in each of the years 2000, 2001 and 2002, according to a new study of 37 million patient records that was released today by HealthGrades, the healthcare quality company
<snip>

[defendandprotect]

111. Plus we've turned childbirth into a disease/hospital emergency . . .

and now it's generally by appointment for Cesarean!!!

[chimpyisstillsatan]

144. so blame the doctors, pharmacists, and nurses, not Pharma. nt

[G_j]

190. who did I blame?

just posted an article,
the point being there are more serious dangers than "alternative medicines".
I'm no admirer of the Pharmaceutical companies!

[Grinchie]

147. Have fun in your mechanistic world.

Herbs have been tested for centuries. There is an incredible wealth of knowledge out there for those who seek it.

Perhaps you should get out of your neighborhood once in a while and see how the rest of the world lives. Not everybody gets there kicks waiting in line at the local pharmacy for their patent medicine.

If there were no demand, the herbal market would have disappeared long ago, and it is doubtful that everybody other than yourself are fools.

So, do you assume that you get all the vitamins you need from your daily Big Mac or Bloomin Onion?

[fascisthunter]

270. tell that to Europeans

they'll laugh at you.... most of what is created derives from nature itself. Why so angry??

[ZombieHorde]

14. Some people are charlatens who take advantage of sick people

by preying on their hopes and fears. Such as people who charge money for 'laying of hands' type of 'healing', such as reiki.

Some natural cures do seem to work well, such as marijuana for nausea.

[Grinchie]

148. I'm happy to say that my partner has the power to heal with energy

Considering that we are all oscillating at unique frequencies, and all of our cells are created of the same atoms as the rest of the earth, sound and energy are an important part of health maintenance as well.

I have seen and experienced personally the benefits of energy healing, and I vouch for it. However, there are many people that have no clue about the electrical nature of the Human Body, and the thousands of impulses and interactions that go on within our being.

The best way to describe being healthy, is to realize that at our most basic form, we are nothing more than a cell. When one finally realizes that we have the ability to control each and every living cell in our body, then we have the power to heal ourselves. We just need to relearn how to communicate with our cells.

We have forgotten how through the mechanistic approach of Allopathic medicine. Wna has been dissected for centuries and medicine knows generally hoe the organs are laid out, but they still don't understand the control mechanism.

Everybody wants to think of their body like a machine, yet they don't maintain it properly. They eat crappy food forcing the body into constant stress, and forcing it to cannibalize minerals and nutrients from the bones and brain.

The current unhealthy state of America is truly sad. Obese, unintelligent drones that lack the inquisitive mind to actully seek out the unknown, but are willing to demonize anything they don't understand.

[WhollyHeretic]

170. "we are all oscillating at unique frequencies"

:rofl:

Using a bunch of scientific sounding words doesn't make what you just said any less incomprehensible nonsense. I really hope that if you get seriously sick you go to a doctor and don't try to oscillate yourself out of it.

[ZombieHorde]

174. Defibrillators are important medical devices which have saved lives.

I assume this is what your partner is using.

[Maru Kitteh]

222. Yes, but vibrators are so much more fun. If you're going to occilate with electricity at a frequency

I'll have the vibrator please!


I'm sure MacGyver could figure out how to save lives with a sex toy.

[MineralMan]

18. Yet another popcorn thread.

Can we have a vegetarian thread and an auto thread to complement this one?

We have differences here. Folks who like alternative medicine should use it. They shouldn't pimp it. Same for cars and eating habits.

Make your choices. Don't insist that others make the same choices, please.

I'm outa here...

[omega minimo]

32. "Don't insist that others make the same choices, please."

Don't insist that others make the same choices, please.

Don't insist that others share your point of view, please.

Don't insist that yours is the only correct or valid point of view, please.

Don't insist that others who don't share your point of view are deficient or deserving of your hostility, please.

Don't insist that others who don't share your point of view don't have the right to a discussion sans harassment from insistent detractors, please.

Don't insist that your point of view is justification for belligerence and abusing DU Rules, please.

Don't insist that others try to insist that you make the same choices they do. That's bogus.

[mzteris]

47. +1

:applause: :applause:

[Dogtown]

198. You need 3 more of those

+ some stone tablets and a burning bush.


Some suggestions:

Don't patronize, for it seemeth to be sanctimonious. Please.

Don't moralize, for it seemeth to contradict #7. Please.

Don't characterize vehement discussion that doesn't support your personal opinion as harassment, for it seemeth judgmental. Please.

This isn't a Sunday School Class, so put your ruler away, Sister Omego Minimo.



Please.

[uppityperson]

23. If the idea of Western Medicine or Pharamceuticals makes you crazy...

"i.e., you can't control being rude and insulting on forums, what exactly in your experience has brought you to behave this way? All negative behavior has a source of bad experience, usually, so what has brought on your opinions in such a strong way?

To say, "It's just stupid," is a copout with no real information.

I'm just curious why certain folks are almost violent with their opinions regarding this obviously quite controversial subject.

Not everyone that fits this category is a pharma shill, so there must be another reason.

Thanks for participating."

[MineralMan]

25. Many of us have known people who rejected

"allopathic medicine" and who have died as the result, when they might well have been cured.

That's my reason. My favorite cousin died at age 16 from Type I diabetes. Her nutcase parents refused to give her insulin, because it came from pigs. So, they treated her with herbal "remedies." Then she died.

I don't give a crap what adults decide to do with their healthcare, but when the wackos start influencing adults to treat children, who cannot make their own choices, with "natural" cures, I give a large crap.

So, if you're looking for an answer, there's one for you.

[diamidue]

122. right

and no one ever died from allopathic medicine.

[LeftishBrit]

179. People have died of just about everything one could name...

but more people have died of the *lack* of allopathic medicine than of its use.

As shown by the considerable increase in life expectancy in our countries in the last 50 years or so (and this cannot be just due to a reduction in poverty, as that has not changed so much in the last 50 as opposed to 100 years).

[Confusious]

26. Because they are liars

I fit them in the same category as faith healers, mystics, spoon benders.

If there is any scientific proof the crap works, I would prefer something natural over Big Pharma med.

But you don't want to do the "science" thing because it'll "take away the magic of the plant". Its the same game the snake oil charlatans play.

[BlooInBloo]

29. There is no spoon.

:P

[Confusious]

31. There is no cure. :)

[Grinchie]

151. Perhaps there is no Scientific Proof because it would break science as we know it.

There are many things that don't fit the Newtonian Laws that just don't behave the way they should.

For example, something as simple as water. Dissaociate it and you get 2 hydrogen, one oxygen. Talk to a chemist, and he goes on about Hydrogen power, but then cautions that burning hydrogen with air would cause NOx pollution and it wouldn't be a good idea.

Of course, he has thrown away the perfectly good Oxygen component, which could be used for combustion right back into water...

Now if we had a device that split water into copious amounts of water into its components, wouldn't you agree that this would transform the world? Would you agree that moneyed interests would be out of business, and may not be happy about it?

You are being led by the nose by an Education system that no longer educates people such as Newton, Tesla or Einstein. Education has been hijacked by Corporate interests in order to sell more product and systems. Innovation is carefully controlled in order to squeeze as much product as possible out of it.

Your claims of Snake Oil are about as reasonable as calling cigarettes "Freedom Torches" to get the suffragette movement to smoke.

[patrice]

34. I think, by far, most of the interest in "Natural Medicine" is directed toward Health & Prevention.

I think there may be some error in our thinking about disease as being like a switch, you're either sick or you're not sick, while there are many conditions in the body that are not technically sickness, they are of or related to pathologies of various kinds. Similar to peri-menopause, maybe we should look for peri-cancer, peri-stroke, peri-__________. These are the sorts of things that "Natural Medicine" can address.

I, for example, "treat" my acid reflux by eating raw fresh mixed greens with as many meals as possible, instead of getting the prescription my doctor gave me filled. Avoiding potatoes and oily or fatty foods also helps quite a bit. There are other, less obvious, examples: chronic dehydration affects everything that goes on in your body, because you basically just recycle dirty fluids.

Rodale Press publishes a lot of findings on these issues.

If there were a way to devise appropriate tests, descriptive statistics, the means by which "knowledge" is rationally quantified relative to the research that produces it, says that the results of valid reliable tests administered to an unlimited sample will manifest a normal distribution, meaning that we would find some pathologies utterly un-affected by natural medicine, some pathologies quite amenable to natural medicine, and by far most pathologies grouped around a measure of central tendency representing roughly equal factors affected by natural medicine and factors un-affected by natural medicine, so the questions are: where a given individual at a given moment in the disease process falls in that distribution, since that's rather difficult to determine, providers opt for the least amount of legal risk and the highest probability of somekind of affect.

[Grinchie]

152. Acid reflux is caused by a lack of Acid surprisingly.

Soak a little piece of bread in Vinegar and it can help that situation.

Of course, you are told to take Antacid, because the symptons are uncomfortable, but the real cause is a lack of acid due to some disturbance, either by having the wrong gut bacteria in place, or by eating the wrong foods.

You are right about water though. People do not drink enough water.

What makes you think Potatoes are to be avoided?

[madmom]

35. My doctor told me to take black cohash to relieve menopause symptoms, he also

told me to take cinnamon and fish oil/flax seed oil supplements. So is this big pharma or "natural cures?

[Grinchie]

154. That is called Nutrition

We need fats and oils to help transport vitamins and minerals into our bloodstream where they can be used. Otherwise, you just excrete them without much uptake.

However, the industrialized food supply developed Hydrogenated Fats in order to prolong the shelf life indefinately. Unaltered fats are reactive and will oxidize in the presence of Oxygen, and can sometimes form toxic compounds in addition to going rancid.

Since the majority of fats we eat today are hydrogenated, we end up being mostly undernourished, despite massive quantities of Sugar and Starches, because hydrogenated fats don't transport the minerals and vitamins in the same way as natural fats.

As far as I'm concerned, we have polluted the oceans of the world and depleted the fisheries so much that I don't trust Fish Oil. I use fresh Coconut Oil now. It's refrigerated and it certainly is delicious.

[madmom]

185. So then what about the cinnamon and black cohash? We are also learning about

capsicum, garlic, baking soda, parsley,onions, lavender that's just a few of the "natural"cures that are coming in to the "main". My grandmother used them for years in their natural form.

[SidDithers]

37. If Suzanne Somers says it's good to inject estrogen into her vagina...

then that's all the research I would need (if I had a vagina)

Sid

Edit: spelling

[alarimer]

39. There's no controversy; there is simply NO EVIDENCE that they work.

They are simply quackery.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

40. Of course they do. Marijuana, valerian, st. john's wort to name a few.

[Confusious]

41. You name 3 out of how many?

and each has scientific studies to back them up. Of course, for a REAL depressed person, St. John warts is not going to cut it. Like for me for instance.

[patrice]

45. I am really depressed and St. John's Wort is helping me cope, while I address other factors. nt

[LeftishBrit]

65. There is real medical evidence that St Johns Wort can be beneficial for mild to moderate depression

Though for severe depression, it is usually ineffective.

I hope that this and the other measures help you, and that you are soon feeling better!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

49. salt, yogurt, aloe vera .... more later.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

50. Opiates, cocaine, water (hot and cold), oatmeal, aspirin (tree bark), cucumbers, tea,

coffee, corn starch, lemons, vinegar. I am sure I'm missing a bunch.

Simple remedies that are not pharmaceutical...baking soda, boric acid, hydrogen peroxide.

Healing that had been considered "woo woo"...acupuncture, acupressure, chiropractors.

[defendandprotect]

113. Apple cider vinegar/mother is phenomenal . . .

taken with some honey, in water

HONEY, itself -- phenomenal

And, all of our vegetables are, of course, plants for our health --

every food contributes in some way to the health and well-being of some part of the

body!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

149. Local honey is even better. And yes, plants/vegetables are phenomenal. Even

for heat regulation...why do so many cultures in heat zones, cook with spicy peppers? To cool one off.

I am also an advocate of black teas. Years ago a friend of mine told me after I had an oral herpes outbreak, to drink loads of tea. That tea helps cure viruses. His great great grand uncle was a doctor who found the cure for a virus that was attacking chickens at the turn of the 20th century and he cured it with black tea. Every time I have the uncoming of a flu or cold, or a recurrent herpes outbreak, I drink tea and they disappear.

In a previous post on this I mentioned salt. Salt to soothe ones aches and pains; salt to clear up throat, mouth and nasal infections; salt to bring up my low blood pressure. So simple, so natural.

I also love essential lavender oil which I use on burns and sinus infections. It works and heals the burns quickly and gets rid of the sinus pains within an hour.

[Grinchie]

156. One of the better Green Teas is from the Persimmon Tree

From the Hachiya variety. I haven't tried the Native American Persimmon.

Just dry the green leaves and make tea. Cheap and delicious. (If you have a Persimmon tree nearby)

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

159. NYer and no persimmon trees for about a thousand miles from here. :( Thanks for the addition!

:hi:

[defendandprotect]

253. Thanks for all the added info . . .

The honey is very interesting -- my health food store is often low cause he gets the honey
in glass bottles. Seems they are moving to plastic now?
And, honey is different from place to place -- you can feel it does different things for you.

Re the black tea -- I drink a natural tea/caffeine free - blackberry leaves, roasted chickory,
hawthorne berries, hibiscus --
What is your black tea?

I use garlic to keep blood pressure regulated --
I'm at the opposite end -- no salt/HBP

Not familiar with the lavender oil but will keep it in mind!
How do you use it for sinus pain?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

259. YW! The concept of local honey has to do with the flowers that are indigenous to where you live

and it is supposed to teach your body to fight local allergens.

Lavender oil can be applied in small quantity, directly to where the sinus pain is. I usually pat it under my eyes and around my nose. :)

As to black tea...Lipton's (orange pekoe is black) and Darjeeling are my favorites. Chai blends work great too. :)

[defendandprotect]

274. thanks --

:)

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

276. My pleasure! :)

[BuddhaGirl]

160. honey has amazing healing properties

I put raw manuka honey on cuts, burns etc...heals things right up!

A while ago, I read about a hospital performing a study (can't remember where)that used honey dressings to heal serious burns...the honey dressings healed burns up much faster than burns without honey dressings. Fascinating!

[Critters2]

117. I use chamomile for anxiety. It works really well,

and I have yet to discover any side effects.

[patrice]

43. Such absolutism requires some definition of your terms: "evidence" and "work" at minimum.

What constitutes evidence? How do we recognize whether something works or not?

It may be that upon said definition you'd find that, based upon those terms, many/most of your opposition agrees with you and those referring to other definitions of evidence and work are quite simply not talking about the same thing that you are talking about.

Though Science delivers some knowledge that approximates the absolutes that you appear to assume it does, it most certainly doesn't deliver 100% high probabilities. Knowledge is probabilities that are relative to the conditions that produce them it and conditions are necessarily limited.

[defendandprotect]

112. Think about who told you that . . .

[Odin2005]

42. I'm staying out of this thread lest my blood pressure gets so high I pop an artery.

:yoiks:

(And both sides need to quit with knee-jerk personal attacks stemming from animosity from old threads...)

[SidDithers]

44. Vitamin D...

it's all you need. For anything.

Sid

[Odin2005]

48. And next you'll be telling me that Chelation Therapy can cure my Asperger's.

:rofl:

[SidDithers]

91. No. For Asperger's, I think you need Vitamin D suffused Butt Candles...nt

:hi:

Sid

[Odin2005]

92. LOL!

:rofl:

[patrice]

46. What brings on negativity? Oversimplification of extremely complex situations, of which we are

quite ignorant.

[omega minimo]

56. The OP is asking why those "can't control being rude and insulting on forums"

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

52. Personally? I Just Get Really Angry At Sheer Stupidity And Ignorance. Fact Is, 99% Of The Natural

cure flag wavers have their logic and reasoning rooted firmly in that of sheer stupidity and ignorance. Not only is the anger/frustration/sarcasm justified, but it should also be more than readily understandable.

[truedelphi]

110. So please OperationMindCrime, consider this -

Ever hear of the natural cure - aspirin (ie willow bark)
Or natural treatment for pain - poppies (now known as opiates)
Or the natural cure for a certain heart ailment foxglove - (digitalis) ??

Many of the items that remain to be found only on the shelves of the health food store are there not because they do not help with some ailment or other, but because there is no way to patent them, and make a profit. So Big Pharma leaves them alone, and tries to dissuade people from using them, as such useage can cut into their profits...

[PVnRT]

133. Those natural substances were studied, tested and purified

And subsequently sold in safer form. Scientists continue to study those things, to find the chemicals that provide the benefits. This has been pointed out numerous times in the past few days, yet you and others keep trotting the example out as some kind of "proof" that you're "right."

[Grinchie]

158. Yep, Safer, like the L-Tryptophan they Manufactured that killed people?

Perhaps you should look up the contaminated L-Tryptophan crisis before you place all your faith in the tested and purified nonsense.

Scientists make mistakes. They are not infallible. Only these days, mistakes are shrouded in secrecy and Corporations are virtually immune from accountablity if they decide to say, release a drug that causes liver disease in 1 out of a thousand people, because they know the profit will outweigh any claims, if anybody has the financial might to take them to court.

GM Pioneered that Money Making strategy.

[truedelphi]

207. If you carefully examine the entire story about the L-Tryptophan,

What happens is this -

Some firm in Japan had the bright idea to use a genetically modified agar or other medium on which to culture the L-Tryptophan. As a result of the use of that weird medium, the L-Tryptophan from that one firm went on to kill around 37 people, and afflicted hundreds of others with a rare and serious blood disorder.

However, there had not been any problem with L-Tryptophan until the attempts were made to culture it on this GMO media. And L-Tryptophan that was from other companies was not affected. However those who control the media were able to control the discussion.

The FDA went barging in and grabbed L-Tryptophan from the shelves of both producers and suppliers who knew their product was not tainted. This made for excellent press.

And the American public was continuously kept in a loop of dis-information and fear that Killer L-Tryptophan was something to be avoided at all costs.

This was patently absurd - for instance, it is my understanding that baby formula containing L-Tryptophan was continuously sold, even during the point in timke whent eh FDA was destroying entire lots of L-Tryptophan. Why? Because the FDA, at the higher levels, knew the problem was not the L-Tryptophan per se but the medium on which it was grown.

How do I know this? I served on the Health Council of Marin for some six years and over my years there heard many wonderful national and international experts testify about such matters.

[defendandprotect]

114. How much do you know about natural plants and what they do?

How much time have you spent in studying the information?

Have you tried even one?

Do you take Vitamin C which most doctors recommend?

Or any other vitamin?

Eat organges?

If you understand the benefit of Vitamin C, you're on you're way!

[Name removed]

226. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SidDithers]

229. "Western medicine sure helped your wife, didn't it?"...

Really? You're gonna go there?

That's pretty fucking low.

Sid

Edit: Post from OMC about his wife Stacey
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=6991801&mesg_id=6991801

[conscious evolution]

231. If he is gonna talk shit

then yes I will go there.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

238. Wow.

Been a long time since I wrote that. Just reread it and it made me cry. May god rest her soul.

I remember how good you all were to me then. Just know no matter how much of a wiseass and prick I can be on here, that isn't real life. In real life, I cherish you all...

[LeftishBrit]

234. And THAT sort of comment is...

an extreme example of precisely why I get so upset on the issue.

I don't get upset by anyone using alternative medicine; I do get upset by vicious attacks on people using 'Western' medicine (actually it's used in all countries that can afford it, not just 'Western' ones).

I actually thought you were a decent person, even though I didn't always agree with you; but it seems I made one big mistake there.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

237. It Likely Would Have, If She Hadn't Gotten Such A Severe Pneumonia.

It was likely it would've helped free her from cancer same as it had countless thousands of others.

As a side note, to stoop as low as you did for such a meaningless topic speaks volumes as to your true character in real life. I feel sorry for you.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

53. Actually, "It's just stupid" does contain real information.

And if you're so sensitive about quackery being debunked, either don't believe in the quackery or don't go out in the real world.

[omega minimo]

61. Yes, contains the real information that the comment comes from a rude, obnoxious jerk

bent on "degrading the quality of discussion for everyone."

Saying "It's just stupid" is not "quackery being debunked," it's assholery being perpetrated.

Discussiing on the Internet is not to "go out in the real world." It's an anonymous space where people put up ideas for discussion and dimwit cowards cause as much trouble as they're allowed to.

Your attitude of "if they don't want to be attacked, they shouldn't believe in stupid shit" is the motto of bullies and jerkaholics worldwide.

If anyone knows how info-free and vicious the attacks are here, it's you.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

77. You know what's worse than being a rude, obnoxious jerk?

Believing in stupid quackery.

[Ms. Toad]

73. At what point does it

stop being quackery? (or in the alternative when does "traditional" treatment become quackery)

My daughter is involved in an experimental treatment for an illness that nearly universally leads to death or a transplant, with the median time from diagnosis to one of the two being around 18 years; an illness for which there is currently no accepted medical treatment that addresses the underlying illness. In order to participate in this experimental treatment, she had to forego what has been the only medical treatment offered - which mitigates symptoms but does not change the ultimate outcome. Her treatment is based on an accidental discovery of an unintended consequence of this experimental treatments' use for something else, with similar results being reported in 10 people after the first patient.

There are theories and guesses as to why the unintended consequence occurred, but no accepted medical theory, and the theories and guesses do not fully explain either the underlying illness or why the treatment works.

Are we pursuing quackery?





Does it matter that the treatment is a recognized as a “traditional” treatment for other conditions? And if so, why should it?

Does it matter that the person who discovered the unintended consequence was a physician? If so, why? Some very important advances in the management of orphan illnesses – via “traditional” medicine or otherwise were discovered by people living with the illnesses who reported their success to their physicians - and as noted by others above, many well accepted "traditional" medical treatments have their origins in the observations of people who had no medical training at all.

Does it matter that I know about the 11 people who were administered the experimental treatment because it was administered by a physician – particularly when this physician cannot articulate a disease theory that completely explains the illness or why this particular experimental remedy should work?

Does it matter that after my daughter rejected the standard medical treatment and started the experimental treatment (3 weeks ago) the standard medical treatment was shown to be not only harmless, but actually probably harmful? Would it have been less quackery to have gone the experimental route had we waited until after the negative information about the conventional treatment came out?

From where I sit – with a daughter battling a little known illness for which there is no good treatment - the lines between “natural” or “alternative” treatment and experimental “traditional” treatment (or even "proven" "traditional" treatment) are not that clear.

The tried and true treatment which at least mitigated symptoms has now been reported to be harmful (based on the first scientifically valid double blind placebo study at the dose she would have been taking). The conventional wisdom – even the wisdom of the person who did both the bulk of the previous studies which led to the conventional treatment and who has now essentially debunked his own work in the recent study – was that the “treatment” made you feel better, that it was harmless overall, and might provide some cancer protection (the illness puts you at risk for three different cancers).

The experimental treatment path my daughter is pursuing has not been borne out by scientifically valid studies – there is a single study, involving essentially anecdotal reports that the drug seems to induce remission (anecdotal because although there are actual lab numbers and pathology, there were no placebos and the study was far too small at 14 individuals to be even close to scientifically valid - so it is essentially a medically reported collection of 11 anecdotal reports). (The study involved 11 with the stage illness my daughter has, and 3 farther along; the results of treatment were split along stage lines with remission for 100% of those in the early stage and improvement but no remission for those in the later stage.)




Before embarking on this experimental treatment, we sat down with two physicians who were not associated with the medical trial (i.e. had no vested interest) and discussed her options. What was the harm in trying the experimental treatment? What was the potential benefit? What was the harm in foregoing the conventional treatment? What side benefits might she be giving up (like mitigation of cancer risk)? If the experimental treatment didn’t appear to be working, could she switch back to the conventional treatment? Is there anything else being studied that is closer to being scientifically validated? What about the traditional treatment at a lower dose (which generally does not even provide symptom relief, but may mitigate the cancer risk)? Can she use both together?

This is the same thing we would have done (and have done) with the "natural" - likely complementary - treatments which she intends to pursue down the road. I really don’t see that much risk difference in pursuing/evaluating “traditional” medical treatment v. “natural” or “alternative” treatment, as long as you ask the same probing questions for each and make responsible decisions after evaluating the risks and known or potential benefits.

In other words – it is not the label associated with the treatment that is the problem, it is the blind pursuit of a miracle cure (which can just as easily be a problem with “traditional” medicine - take Ritalin, for example, which is a miracle when used appropriately but is far too often prescribed for normal boys for whom early elementary school is just not an environment for which they are yet ready). Just because something is “natural” or “alternative” doesn’t mean it is inherently more dangerous (or less likely to produce results) than not-yet-proven “traditional” treatments – and as our case shows, the right “traditional” treatment is often a moving target, and what is thought to be the best option today may in fact be determined to be dangerous tomorrow.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

76. When the scientific method is used.

[Ms. Toad]

78. The hue and cry around here doesn't seem to be directed

to scientifically validated treatments (which many early stage traditional treatments are not),
but to "natural" or "alternative" being inherently quackery and the people who employ them being deluded, unscientific, etc. - and "traditional" being inherently not quackery - even when (as in our case) they prove to be just that.

That was the entire premise of the article, and the substance of the discussions since then (and your response seemed in line with that - my comment could just as easily have been tacked onto any number of other responses in this or a number of threads).

[LeftishBrit]

127. No, the other does happen

I don't generally even go on threads that are just about the use of some alternative medicines. I am actually pro-dietary/nutritional health methods (and use them to an extent), so long as they are not seen as ALL that needs to be done. However, I DO get upset by threads which state that vaccinations are harmful and a cause of many evils; or that people should not use chemo or other conventional medicine for cancer but rely solely on alternative medicine; or that most modern medicine is a sinister product of pharmaceutical companies and that our ancestors who didn't have it were better off.

As I said, this sort of comment makes me feel as though my family and myself and lots of other people in the world are being told to drop dead, and that our health needs are less important than punishing the pharma companies. I am no fan of the profit motive of pharma companies that make medicines unaffordable to many; but whether people are deprived of access to medicine in order to *profit* or *punish* the pharma companoes, they are still deprived of access, and that is awful. In general, I am upset by ideology trumping medical need, whether it is "The free market is more important than anything else, and socialized medicine will bring us to a dictatorship" or "Stem cell research is sinful" or "Abortion causes breast cancer" - or "Conventional medicines are a wicked tool of Big Pharma".

[Grinchie]

161. Hate to say it, but I am now in the anti-vaccination camp.

The use of Mercury in vaccinations as a preservative is unacceptable. I saw a friends child go from normal to autistic shortly after getting a battery of vaccinations and it scared the hell out of me. Furthermore, it is a fact that mandatory vaccinations for Anthrax on Military Personell caused serious health effects for quite a few people, so there are definite risks associated with Vaccinations these days.

Thirdly, many vaccinations are created in fertile chicken eggs. Do people really think they are able to filter out all the chicken or other contaminants and foreign debris?

After seeing how Corporate America has subverted the Medical profession, I find it hard to trust the "Technicians" and tend to go with a more basic approach to health, and that is prevention through proper Nutrition and proper thinking.

[LeftishBrit]

168. Vaccines now don't contain mercury

And autism doesn't tend to show up until the second year of life when most children develop social communication skills. It happens that some vaccines are given at the same time; but that doesn't mean that the vaccines *cause* autism.

I won't go into great detail about vaccinations, as this is not really a thread for specific debates. I will just make a very few points:

(1) I do not think that vaccines should be mandatory except in extreme public health emergencies (on civil liberties and 'slippery slope' grounds) so yes, you should have the right not to have yourself or your family members vaccinated.

(2) However, anyone, who gets between me or any of my family members and our BASIC HUMAN RIGHT to vaccines and other aspects of Western medicine, will at least ensure that they never get cancer, as I will tear them apart with my own bare hands!!! OK, in case Agent Mike is here, I don't actually mean that literally!! - but it *is* a right I will fight very hard, in a metaphorical sense, to preserve.

(3) I know a few people who are permanently disabled due to diseases that could now be prevented with vaccines, and it has scared the shit out of *me*!

[Ms. Toad]

173. Slight correction - some still do contain mercury

Most flu vaccinations do use thimersol as a presertative, and almost all contain minor amounts ( http://www.cdc.gov/FLU/ABOUT/QA/thimerosal.htm )- so if that is something you (generally) are trying to avoid it is important to be aware of that.

[LeftishBrit]

176. True. But it's possible to get the flu vaccine without...

and mostly babies aren't given the flu vaccine - at least not in the UK.

[Ms. Toad]

205. The current mantra is that vaccines do not contain thimerosol

so most everyone assumes that any vaccine they are given is thimerosol free.

There is no prominent warning that flu vaccines are different - it is in the fine print on the disclosure form that pretty much no one reads. If you are trying to avoid thimerosol you have to request a preservative free flu vaccines, and even then there are still traces of thimerosol in it.

Not arguing for or against flu vaccines - just for full disclosure so you can make your own decision.

[truedelphi]

208. Thanks for adding your carefully considered words to the

Discussion.

Some on this board make anyone who wants any level of assurance of safety regarding vaccines to be thought of as pig-headed Luddites who will not protect their kids from polio. But in this day and age, who in their right mind would not ask for some measure of information on any product offered by our Corporate (Profit-driven) Pharmaceutical companies?

[Ms. Toad]

227. I've run into them.

Mostly I try to stay out of the vaccination fray - my personal views are in the middle - but occasionally I lapse. There are specific areas I believe warrant more research - the number and frequency/scheduling of mandatory vaccinations in general, and specifically in connection with the interplay between vaccinations and immune/autoimmune abnormalities.

I'll just leave it at that and avoid my rant, which would likely attract folks who will just make me remember why I try to avoid these discussions.

[semillama]

188. Anti-vaccination? Here's some folks on your side:

Pertussis

Mumps

Measles

Rubella

Small pox

Polio

Cervical Cancer

Anthrax

HPV

Rabies

Rota virus

Shingles

Tetanus

Yellow Fever

Typhoid Fever

Tuberculosis

Hep A

Hep B

... I could go on.

Anti-vaccination = Pro-infectious disease.

[Recursion]

187. According to my information theory class...

...it contains about 16 bits of information.

[Umbral]

54. I'm sure anyone seriously advocating the practice of faith-healing, voodoo or the use of snake-oil

would receive the same type of response. What about Chinese Medicine? How many species have to be drive to extinction to sate the worlds most populous nation? This isn't a few cups of herbal tea, this is quackery on that scale that's dangerous and immoral. If someone wants to waste their time, money and health supporting charlatans, fine, but don't expect the community of skeptics to give them any respect.

[omega minimo]

69. Snake oil is what Republicans sell

"If someone wants to waste their time, money and health supporting charlatans, fine, but don't expect the community of skeptics to give them any respect."

It's reasonable to expect the respect required by the Administration and Rules of DU.

Welcome to DU. DU Rules link at bottom of every page.

"I believe that the vast majority of DUers are not bothered by legitimate disagreements shared in the spirit of mutual respect. That is the ideal that we should *all* be striving for." -- Skinner



Civility: Treat other members with respect. Do not post personal attacks against other members of this discussion forum.

Content: Do not post messages that are inflammatory, extreme, divisive, incoherent, or otherwise inappropriate. Do not engage in anti-social, disruptive, or trolling behavior. Do not post broad-brush, bigoted statements. The moderators and administrators work very hard to enforce some minimal standards regarding what content is appropriate.

The administrators of Democratic Underground are working to provide a place where progressives can share ideas and debate in an atmosphere of mutual respect. Despite our best efforts, some of our members often stray from this ideal and cheapen the quality of discourse for everyone else. Unfortunately, it is simply impossible to write a comprehensive set of rules forbidding every type of antisocial behavior.

The fact that the rules do not forbid a certain type of post does not automatically make an uncivil post appropriate, nor does it imply that the administrators approve of disrespectful behavior. Every member of this community has a responsibility to participate in a respectful manner, and to help foster an atmosphere of thoughtful discussion. In this regard, we strongly advise that our members exercise a little common decency, rather than trying to parse the message board rules to figure out what type of antisocial behavior is not forbidden.

When discussing race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, or other highly-sensitive personal issues, please exercise the appropriate level of sensitivity toward others and take extra care to clearly express your point of view.

Unfortunately, in the past some members have used the protected "echo-chamber" available in the DU Groups in ways that increased feelings of victimization among members of that Group, or increased hostility toward DU members who are not participants in that Group. This has been a particular problem in Groups devoted to specific Democratic candidates, and in Groups for believers or non-believers. Because of this misuse of the DU Groups, we have been forced to institute a few additional rules to keep discussions productive.

Do not use the DU Groups to whip up feelings of victimization or to complain about perceived mistreatment by the administrators, moderators, or members of Democratic Underground.

Do not use the DU Groups to discuss members of Democratic Underground who you do not like, or whom you believe to be disruptors.

Do not use the DU Groups to "rally the troops" to go participate in discussion threads elsewhere on our website, or to likewise encourage members to vote in polls or recommend threads or alert on posts.

[Dogtown]

200. Are you a mod?

If not, perhaps you should quit pontificating on the 'rules' in every post.

You have an 'Alert' button. Use it if you object to a post.

There's a religion forum here, if you can't control your need to preach.

[Prometheus Bound]

90. Are you saying all Chinese medicine is quackery? Or just some? or what?

[defendandprotect]

115. Natural plants are not "faith healing" . . .

and to suggest so lends to the argument that the OP is making . . .

Why are you so threatened by natural medicine?

Ever take Vitamin C or eat an orange?

Do you remember why?

Rather it is our slash and burn medicine which deserves no respect.

[LeftishBrit]

62. I owe my life and health to conventional medicine...

as do several people in my family.

I don't have any objection to people using alternative medicine if they feel that it helps them. However, when people campaign AGAINST conventional medicine, I feel that my own and my family's welfare are being threatened in the cause of ideology. I suppose I feel very much like a Parkinsons sufferer who has to listen to people's religious campaigns against stem cell research.

Also, one of my strongest political issues is the fact that poorer people, especially people in developing countries, are being deprived of the BASIC HUMAN RIGHT of access to modern medicine. This is mainly because the real pharma shills are making medicines unaffordable AND stingy insurance companies and right-wing cost-cutting governments are restricting access on financial grounds (in developed countries), and world economic policies and corruption are preventing access at all for many people in developing countries. But I suppose I do feel that when progressives reject people's need for access to medicine, in favour of attacking medicine as such, they are 'letting down the side' in a way.

So it's not the alternative medicine as such that bothers me, so much as the ideological rejection of conventional medicine.

[marions ghost]

71. It's not "either/or" for most of us

--conventional medicine and "alternative" medicine work well together actually (look at China). In some more enlightened areas in this country, people are realizing this, but as you say it's an uphill battle against the medical bureaucracy and Big Pharma.

I don't think smart people reject either course. The hostility comes mostly from the dominant players who are trying to keep the "alternatives" out.

[truedelphi]

108. That's my take on it too.

You say:The hostility comes mostly from the dominant players who are trying to keep the "alternatives" out.

Sort of describes Big Pharama's stance on marijuana. They get the DEA people to make statements like "Marijuana has never been known to work medicinally in any manner at any time for any ailment."

Except of course, most acupuncturists would point out that marijuana has been used for five millenia to help women with monthly cramps and blood flow etc. It is mentioned in the oldest manuscripts we have from China.

And the same Big Pharama that is trying to keep marijuana illegal, also has nifty little articles written up in various Medical Journals about the efficacy of some cannibinoid or other that Big Pharma plans on patenting.

[defendandprotect]

116. I'm sure you understand that whatever the medication you attribute your life to ...

probably costs a few thousand times less in Canada?

You might wonder whether someone in your family might be helped BEFORE they had
similar problems by preventive medicine -- natural plants?

Our synthetic medicines are also loaded with side effects which require new medicines
to handle those and then more new medicines to handle the addedd side effects.

Many of the side effects are extremely serious.

Odd that with the entire pharmaceutical world on your side -- and the profit motive -
that you would feel threatened by the world of alternative/natural medicines?
How can that be. Think about it?

Ever take Vitamin C or eat an orange?
Do you remember why?

[LeftishBrit]

129. The profit motive is AGAINST as much as FOR access to conventional medicine

Right-wing governments and insurance companies want to restrict access to costly medicines as much as possible. And the pharma companies contribute by making them more expensive. The entire world and the profit motive are NOT on the side of those who need medicine!!!

'probably costs a few thousand times less in Canada?'

Probably not in my case, as I live in a country, the UK, with 'socialized medicine', and am not defending the American medical system; far from it. Canada also uses conventional medicine! One can support access to conventional medicine AND universal public health care - in fact, the latter ensures greater access to the former.

I do not feel threatened by the world of alternative medicine; only by ideological attacks on conventional medicine (and this in a world where access to it IS restricted). The two are different. Use all the alternative medicine you want; recommend it all you want; but please do NOT attack the right to conventional medicine - or, if you do, please be prepared for emotional reactions from those who depend utterly on it, or whose families do.

[defendandprotect]

252. And where did anyone "attack your right to conventional medicine" . . . ???

and you say you don't feel "threatened" . . . ???!!!

Again, glad that you have positive medication.

Here in America, whatever that might be -- even if helpful to a patient --
may not be paid for by insurance/health care companies! Every day that situation
worsens.

In fact, your exaggeration is completely on the opposite side of reality -- it is
natural medicine which has long been under attack -- and alternative medicine --
where information is barred and research not only discouraged, but suppressed.

[LeftishBrit]

255. Here's the sort of comment I mean.

These were all made at various times by a variety of different people; and *are* by implication attacks on the right to use vaccines and various forms of conventional medicine (Mostly not made directly to me. And mods, if I'm not allowed to quote these, please delete my post):

’However, thanks to your infamously perfected skill of f*cking our children up, our numbers are growing exponentially. Your house of cards built on lies will fall soon, just like Big Tobacco.’

‘You mercury-pushers talk a tough game, but when it comes to actually doing the necessary common sense research to prove your no ASD/vaccine link, you wilt like pansies in the desert. "9/11, worthless studies, 9/11, impossible, 9/11, can't do it, 9/11, can't find enough unvaccinated kids, 9/11, unethical..." Nothing but excuses from cowards. ‘

‘the pharma giants have put out so much disinformation and weaseled out of any responsibility for what they have wrought-because they don't want to pay the billions of dollars in claims they are responsible for.
May those bastards and their supporters on this thread ROT IN HELL!!! ’’

'There seem to be a lot of close-minded people on here.
Why are they here? There are plenty of places to go for close-minded people who want to echo the pharmaceutical line.'

'I'm sure the pharmaceuticals rest easy knowing you're here to protect their interests.'

'That incorrect guess of mine where I assumed you were in the pharm industry really got to you. Could it be that you may feel unconsciously GUILTY about prescribing drugs but this is all you know because of your training? If so, realize that you can become a holistic MD. You can learn acupuncture, nutrition, etc., and with your extensive medical training, you will be very well-rounded’

Now, really my main point:

As regards your second paragraph:

'Here in America, whatever that might be -- even if helpful to a patient --
may not be paid for by insurance/health care companies! Every day that situation
worsens.;

Yes. And although not quite as bad elsewhere, the problem still exists in most places. Even in countries with public health care, right-wing cost-cutting governments are often tempted to deny access to medicines that they judge too expensive; and insurance companies are an issue in most places. I have posted elsewhere that I am concerned that some people are only attacking pharma for *pushing unnecessary medicines* and not for *making necessary medicines unaffordable* - and this is in a sense playing into the hands of the cost-cutters.

About feeling threatened: what I said was that I don't feel threatened by people *using alternative medicine*. I *do* feel threatened by people assuming that anyone who supports or uses vaccines, drugs and other forms of conventional medicine is a shill, a supporter of 'fucking up children', and that their medical providers should 'feel GUILTY for prescribing drugs'.

[defendandprotect]

282. These are examples of what makes you think the Medical Industry is America is threatened....????

These aren't attacks on the "right to use vaccines" . . . these are people trying
to wake you up about the damage that vaccines have already done.

And that we don't know what the results will be over generations.

Our military have been made ill by vaccines, on more than one occasion.

Additionally, I would say some of that isn't even rational . . . and you find it a
concrete threat to the firmly established medical industry?

And, remember, there was a time when TOBACCO was sold on TV by "doctors" wearing white
coats! The manipulation and the money are on the side of corporations and that's something
I think you should keep in mind as they distort truth and reality.

And, additionally, it is capitalism which does not want to be made responsibile for the
harm it does -- even medically. That's what tort "reform" is all about!

And, the pharmaceutical industry pretty much owns our FDA - do you think we're truly
getting the best medicines at the cheapest prices -- with the least side effects --
from that arrangement?

Also keep in mind that 50% of our GP's want out --
start to think about what might be so wrong in medical practice as to trigger that
reaction from doctors?

And, obviously, neither one of us are blowing the horn of the pharmaceutical industry.
In fact, my Senator Lautenberg in NJ is pretty much wholly owned by them --

And, again, re this . . .

I *do* feel threatened by people assuming that anyone who supports or uses vaccines, drugs and other forms of conventional medicine is a shill, a supporter of 'fucking up children', and that their medical providers should 'feel GUILTY for prescribing drugs'.

From what I saw of the responses you provided -- and you obviously put effort into doing
that -- is that you are paying too much attention to people who should probably be on
"ignore." And, I could not suggest from what I've read here that that is the majority
of opinion of those trying to wake people up to alternative medicine and the problems
with our medical industry. Alternative medicine is fairly mainstream.

Meanwhile, again, overturning our medical industry would be about as likely as overturning
capitalism in a hurry. Not that it isn't needed, but the money has so entrenched their
power over government that I imagine we'll all be sicker before we ever begin to get well
again!

[marions ghost]

66. I can't say enough good things about acupuncture

isn't this "natural medicine?"

Especially since I'm drug sensitive and can't take a lot of common medications, acupuncture has been a wonderful alternative & very effective for me.

[omega minimo]

70. Good example

[BuddhaGirl]

83. acupuncture has been wonderful for

me - has helped with different issues over the years.

A good friend of mine is an M.D. AND an acupuncturist - East and West - to me that's the best of both worlds! :-)

[defendandprotect]

119. Was treatment available locally - or did you have to travel?

Interesting subject --

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

150. I had "frozen shoulder" which many people go under the knife to cure. Acupuncture

cured it for me.

[defendandprotect]

283. Thank you --

[ContinentalOp]

183. The great thing about it is that you can do it yourself at home for free with no training.

Since studies show that "real" acupuncture is no more effective than sham acupuncture.

[rucky]

264. Sorry, but if there's no double blind logitudinal study, then it's not effective.

:sarcasm:

[NashVegas]

67. The Idea of Natural Medicine Makes Me Less Crazy Than "Treat At All Costs"

Even though I have serious doubts about most "natural" cures for serious ailments, and am well aware of benefits of establishment treatments in many cases, I also have direct personal experience in matters where medical treatment was used only to prolong the inevitable ("we can't cure it, but we can control it's progress"), and give doctors medical knowledge - which they could bill us for!

Emotionally, that prolonging was far, far, more devastating over the long run of things than if my parent, my siblings and I had spent more of our time learning to cope with impending loss and death. We were completely unable to do as we were forced to "keep everyone's spirits up."

Our refusal, as a nation/race, to accept death and loss is crippling and keeps us all behaving like children.

[scheming daemons]

68. Like the poster above... "I'm a scientist"

pseudo-science is very dangerous. It makes people make misinformed decisions.

[defendandprotect]

120. Natural plants are "pseudo science" . . . ????

How do you think people got along since the beginning of time except with

natural medications from plants?

Have you never heard, either, of animals treatment their own ailments with plants?

You don't realize that our plants are our medicines and always have been?

And that there is no medicine produced which isn't linked to a plant?

But, usually with a longer list of side effects and more dangerously so.

When the side effects appear, you're given more medicine with more side effects and

yet more to handle the new side effects!

People are turning to alternative medicines because they have been made so ill by

synthetic medicines -- oh, yeah . . . our "modern" synthetic medicines!

[NashVegas]

153. Of Course! Only Patented Drugs Are Legitimate Treatments

Geez, what dummies!

[gypsy11]

155. I'm not so sure

if natural plants are pseudo-science. I was diagnosed with MRSA, the antibiotic Bactirm, which was prescribed to me nearly killed me. I had a very bad allergic reaction to it after taking it for 7 days- which by the way, took months to fully recover from. The Bactrim did not cure the MRSA either. What DID cure the MRSA was a mixture of lavender oil and tea tree oil applied right to the infection. Worked like a charm, very quickly, and it's never come back. There were absolutely NO side effects, and the oils smell really nice too.

So if natural plants are a pseudo-science- I'll take that over real science (whatever that means) any day of the week. I've seen natural plants work with my own eyes.

[Recursion]

184. How informed is any layperson's decision?

I'm interning in a biomedical and tissues lab. I maintain half of their apparati and software, and for an EE I'm pretty well-versed in medical research because of that, and I'm not in a position to make informed decisions about most new therapies. How in the hell are laymen supposed to make informed decisions? Based on whoever's ad gets the most airtime?

[Wizard777]

266. There is much truth in that. But the problem is distinguishing the fake from the real.

Take Marijuana for example. Before the Marijuana tax stamp act. Marijuana was used as a base for a lil over 85% of our countries medicine. That comes from a friend of mine who is a retired chemical engineer for a Pharm Co. His first job at the company was while he was going through college. He worked in the fields picking their marijuana. Then they eliminated Marijuana and they started to see new disease and disorders emerging. Even in this age of expanding technology. We aren't even close to understanding the totality of how the human body functions. I'm against science taking absolute positions on human health until we do. My doctor and I have had long running disputes on my health. Recently my doctor had to admit that if I had followed conventional medical wisdom. I would have died a long time ago. But I always listen to what my body is telling me. Now my Doctor also listens to what it is telling me. I smoke cigarettes. The nicotine prevents my heart and veins from enlarging. I'm 6' 11" and that is a natural hazard for people my size. I also smoke Marijuana and that can suppress lung cancer. With each new study my Doctor is saying, "I can't understand why you're not dead" less and less. Science is beginning to give him the means of understanding what my body has been telling me all along.

[Sebastian Doyle]

79. Aspirin is considered a legitmate drug

It's used for headaches, heart patients, as a blood thinner, etc.

Where does aspirin come from?

The bark of a willow tree.

The for profit corporate health care system frowns on natural medicine because you can't patent a plant. Although Monsanto's trying to fix that "problem". It's similar to the energy industry being terrified of wind & solar power because they can't control the supply.

[Odin2005]

93. Try to get all the asprin you need naturally and willows will be extinct in a week.

[Grinchie]

164. Hah Hah Hah! You're welcome to try!

Willows are one of the more prolific plants around.

[eridani]

256. Nowhere near as prolific as good old Homo Sapiens n/t

[PVnRT]

136. That's ridiculous. You can patent the active chemical that provides the therapeutic benefit.

Pharmaceutical companies study these things every day, as well as NIH and other government agencies, universities, research centers...but as soon as it stops benefiting the purveyors of "alternative medicine" financially, all of a sudden it's an evil Big Pharma conspiracy blah blah blah.

[CreekDog]

89. There's such a thing as righteous anger towards those who mislead

even if those who mislead do it with charm and with a smile on their face.

if you tell people vaccines are more harmful than the disease and you do so without evidence or you do so inaccurately, then it is polite not to challenge you --but that doesn't make it right not to challenge you and it doesn't make it wrong to loudly and forcefully point out your harmful error. you should be challenged forcefully.

if you try to play games by saying that scientifically tested treatments are dangerous and ineffective while at the same time arguing that your own anecdotal evidence is more powerful --then expect to get yelled at because that's an affront to sound reasoning masquerading in the name of reasoning. thus, it should be pointed out --perhaps quite loudly.

[AmyDeLune]

121. I can agree with that.

Unfortunately, as evidenced by many of the replies in this thread, many of the "defenders" of traditional medicine label all natural and alternative treatments as snake oil and poison, refusing to admit that any such treatment could have any effectiveness beyond the placebo effect. They do so not by providing any genuine statistics or studies, but simply by abusing any who disagree with them.

Thank you for answering the OP in a civil manner. :)

[semillama]

192. Do you have a link that backs up the following assertion:

"many of the "defenders" of traditional medicine label all natural and alternative treatments as snake oil and poison, refusing to admit that any such treatment could have any effectiveness beyond the placebo effect. "

That's a rather broad brush statement and I think you'd have a hard time finding anyone who says ALL natural and alternate treatments are snake oil and poison (although several could be considered as such).

[AmyDeLune]

219. Read this thread.

And then re-read my post. I said "many" as "evidenced by this thread". Not ALL.

I'm not really sure what your point is.

Have a nice day! :)

[semillama]

245. I have read the thread

I don't have a point. I simply asked you to clarify your statement, when you make a broad brush statement with little to no evidence to back it up. Maybe a couple people have approached your characterization, but it's not "many" as you stated, and I would say that none have outright stated that all natural remedies are bunk. If you're going to say something like that, then you should be able to post links to entries in the thread to back it up.

Please have a wonderful day and think about the value of arguing well.

[AmyDeLune]

254. I'm not arguing and I'm not going to.

I made no "broad brush statements", I'm sorry that you choose to interpret my post, which was not addressed to you and has nothing to do with you, as some sort of attack.

If you've read the entire thread and have only found "a couple of people" who dismiss all non-traditional medicine as bunk, there's really nothing I can do about that.

I'm on slow, pokey, dial-up and I don't feel liking taking a couple of hours of my life to cut and paste specific links to posts in this thread to save you the effort of reading them yourself.

Have a good evening and I hope you find someone more lively to fight with. :hi:

edited to add:
The good evening is sincere, not snarky. I really just don't enjoy pointless arguments. We clearly view the responses in this thread differently and aren't going to come to an agreement. Sorry I'm not more fun.:(

[semillama]

258. Well, ok

but if you can't see that the statement I pointed out was in fact a broad-brush statement, then I guess we have nothing to discuss.

[AmyDeLune]

275. There are far more genuine broad-brush statements in this thread

complete with bogus statistics on both sides of the issue. "Many" does not equal "All", nor did I point to any group than those posting on this particular thread.

There are now about 274 posts here, if you would care to link to say, roughly 200 posts that would back up your assertion that only a couple of people fit my description, I'll gladly concede your point. :D

[semillama]

279. Now you're just being silly.

You don't have to say "all" to make a broad-brush statement - the use of the word "many" implies a majority, and by definition, a broad-brush statement paints a majority of people with a generalization. You may recall I asked you to clarify the statement by pointing out examples (which you haven't done).

Your second sentence just doesn't make sense, but does illustrate perhaps a lack of perspective. If I assert that only a couple of posts approach your statement, then I only need to link to those posts, not hundreds. I think it's pretty easy to pick out the very few posts that do, and they only represent two, perhaps three individuals. What you were implying, however, is that many people were arguing that all alternative remedies were BS (to paraphrase), and that's just not the case at all.

At this point, I will concede that it's all moot.

[AmyDeLune]

281. Of course it's silly!

As silly as you expecting me to take the time to sift through 270+ posts to pick out the ones that illustrate my point to prove to you that I am entitled to my interpretation of this thread just as you are yours.
Our definition of broad-brush is clearly different. To me it would have been had I said (typed) "most" or "all", "many" implies (to me) a lot but not necessarily a majority, just as "a couple" implies a few.

broad-brush
  –adjective
characterized by sweeping comprehensiveness with little attention to details: a broad-brush approach to reform.
Origin:
1965–70

Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.

broad-brush (brôd'brŭsh')
adj. Sweepingly general in scope or thrust: an unfair, broad-brush indictment of all public officials.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


Clearly, different posts stand out to each of us and we are not going to agree. I really am sorry it seems to bother you so much though. Argument Mooted.

[defendandprotect]

123. People here are idiots trying to make other people sick -- !!!

The reality is that people are being made ill by our "for profit" medicinal industry --

including our pharmaceuticals which are over priced and loaded with side effects.

Vaccines are not infallible which many of our soldiers know -- but many would like us

to think so. Nor do we know what will happen generationally with the taking of these

vaccines.

We also have many ill children since the inception of the batteries of vaccines.

Evidently, this is so threatening to the pharmaceutical companies that they've suggested

that all vaccines would be banned if there was a question raised about them!

Kinda like the NRA -- "they're going to take your guns!"

Again, rudness doesn't lead to bettering the information we all need to make valid and

healthful decisions.

On the contrary, there is a world going on you seem to be entirely unaware of and I'd

suggest you wake up to it -- before you are made ill by our "slash and burn" medicial care.

[cali]

134. alleopathic medicine has its drawbacks but it's by far the

best avenue for serious injury or illness. And it isn't an issue of for profit or not. It's about science. So, no, alleopathic medicine isn't making us ill, though it's fair to say that the for profit delivery method, contributes to ill health. Vaccines are generally safe and have been a HUGE boon. And sorry, but science does know a great deal about vaccines. Too many ill children since the inception of vaccines? MILLIONS of children have been saved via vaccination. Literally millions. Your comment is sadly ignorant.

I'm not knocking all alternative medicine, but conflating our lousy healthcare delivery system with alleopathic medicine itself, is simply absurd.

[PVnRT]

138. Hmmmm, so "alternative" medicine has NO side effects at all?

Munch on some foxglove and get back to us about that.

[Grinchie]

167. You need to relax PVnRT

I guess you're forgetting that nearly all modern drugs were derived from a plant source originally.

But, I would imagine that "Munching of some Foxglove" whould be much more of a chore that swallowing the same drug in a candy coated pill concentrated about a hundred times.

[Recursion]

189. What do you have against digitalins?

Foxglove is kind of a textbook example of medicine that crossed over from the "alternative" side.

[defendandprotect]

196. dupe

[defendandprotect]

197. You said that . . . we didn't . . .

However, side effects of natural medicines are no where near those of
"modern" synthetics where the lists are pages long -- and have to be
added to even after the drug is being used.

Our killer drugs!

[Baikonour]

106. I drink chamomile tea instead of Pepto-Bismol when my stomach is upset. It works.

Does that make me crazy?

[defendandprotect]

124. I've just had a heavy cold -- chest congestion . . .

instead of using any of the over the counter crap, I used curry powder and onions

and it worked terrificially for chest congestion --

2 onions, thinly sliced - sauteed in 2 tablespns of olive oil - and a teaspoon of curry powder!

[madmom]

162. When I was little, my gramma used to make "cough syrup" from onions. She would

slice an onion and sprinkle a little sugar on top to draw out the juices and to help with the flavor and we used the juices as cough syrup when we were congested. It worked!!

[Grinchie]

169. I have a better treatment -- Ginger Tea

slice up some Ginger and lemons. Steep for 10 minutes. Enjoy

[defendandprotect]

191. I love it . . .

but not usually with lemon.

Take it like every other day.

How about organic carrots sauteed in some ginger -- delicious!

[LeftishBrit]

236. One thing I can agree with you on

I like ginger and lemon tea, and drink it regularly and especially when I have a cold.

[Skittles]

128. I find that sex works great for a headache

yes INDEED

[fascisthunter]

271. nope... makes you smart actually

[chimpyisstillsatan]

132. Nice straw men, did you buy them from Amway?

This is a classical Republican strategy:

Natural "medicines"
"Cures"
"Not everyone is a pharma shill."

...start a "debate" using ridiculous straw men and make the other side defend from your frame. Well I call bullshit.

I've not seen anyone use the argument "it's just stupid," and the rudeness in these threads usually results from someone with a fetish for their favorite "natural" chemical trying to bring any science-based argument to a close with conspiracy theories and ad hominem attacks on the motivations of the entire Pharmaceutical industry.

How well would it go over with you if I referred to you as a gullible mark for Herbalife and the other mountebanks that prey on ignorance and "truthiness" to suck money from the healthcare system?

I'm one of your "pharma shills." In addition to my Ph.D. in Pharmacology/Toxicology, I am also a lifeling progressive activist. Your side of this "debate" already gets the respect it deserves. Too much in many cases, given that we live in the Scientific Age.

Show me some properly controlled clinical trials and we'll have a place to start the discussion. Otherwise you're just pitching a way to make people's piss more expensive.

[dorkulon]

137. People are alway more insulting online than in person, because there are no repercussions.

No one can slap you on the internet. But the level of vitriol goes both ways. I've definitely been called an idiot for questioning some ideas that seem pretty cockamamie to me, including homeopathy and "auras", despite my civil tone. On the other hand, just because someone's being a jerk about it doesn't mean they're wrong.

[Heidi]

139. There's plenty of disrespect to go around, you must admit.

For every "It's just stupid" reference you can find, re: integrative/alternative medicine, I can find a "Enjoy the Kool-Aid" post by someone painting pharmaceuticals with a broad brush.

[MicaelS]

172. Because it's irrational and unscientific, that's why.

Just like religious faith in miracles and a personal god / savior with no supporting evidence. Or belief in UFOS, or chemtrails, or indigo children, just to name a few. Many people here are scientists or in the medical field, or just plain skeptics. They want proof. Not, anecdotal evidence, hard reproducible proof. Scientific or medical claims get peer reviewed and tested in a controlled setting. Most of these unscientific claims do not. What is most disappointing here is when otherwise seemingly intelligent and educated people, who decry the stupidity and blind, lemming-like behaviour of the right wing, engage in the exact same type of irrational behaviour. Many liberals and progressives claim they are part of "the reality based community". Well obviously that reality only extends just so far.

[defendandprotect]

194. Holy Moley ...

are you going to have an awakening some day -- !!

Because it's irrational and unscientific, that's why.

What's "irrational" about natural plants -- or "unscientific" about natural plants?

Presumably you think that only vegetation with chemicals and pestiticides are legit?

Just like religious faith in miracles and a personal god / savior with no supporting evidence.

Nor do I see anyone here talking about "miracles" -- in fact, most of us seem to be
talking about preventive health care.

Or belief in UFOS, or chemtrails, or indigo children, just to name a few.

Evidently, you're so underinformed as to be totally clueless. Chemtrails are a subject
in Congress. Chemtrails can be visibly seen with the human eye. Chemtrails have been
reported on in our MSM as to chemical content -- one being, barium. Chemtrails have
been being used all over the world for more than 10 years and is reported now to be part
of "Weather Modification" by governments.

We've had presidents from Reagan to Carter who have actually witnessed UFO's - we've had
astronauts who have witnessed UFO's. We've had every kind of pilot -- commercial and
military, etal -- who have witnessed UFO's. Remember that the right-wing/tin foil hat
propaganda is mainly to keep those who are easily frightened from actually opening their
minds an inch to find out what's going on. It helps when fewer people are curious about
what's going on in the world.

Many people here are scientists or in the medical field, or just plain skeptics. They want proof. Not, anecdotal evidence, hard reproducible proof. Scientific or medical claims get peer reviewed and tested in a controlled setting. Most of these unscientific claims do not. What is most disappointing here is when otherwise seemingly intelligent and educated people, who decry the stupidity and blind, lemming-like behaviour of the right wing, engage in the exact same type of irrational behaviour. Many liberals and progressives claim they are part of "the reality based community". Well obviously that reality only extends just so far.

Well, I presume you don't use aspirin?
You have no knowledge of what RU-486 is based on?
You've never eaten an orange for health reasons, nor taken Vitamin C?
There's an old saying . . . "When you educate a fool, what you get is an educated fool."
Indeed, our system of medicine seems bent on keeping people from thinking -- and especially
from challenging existing treatments.

Try to start with this thought . . .
There is no medicine which is not based on a natural plant --
That's another excellent reason why you should try to be eating organic foods rather
than food grown using chemicals and pestiticdes.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

202. LOL

I like the part where you actually believe in chemtrails.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

182. Corrections of woo woo mistakes made in this thread.

1. Placebos do not actually cure anything.

2. Many medicines have been produced that have no links to plants whatsoever.

3. Knee surgeries can be done without heroin.

4. There are no Novartis hypertension medicines which contain "Brazilian snake venom."

5. There have been significant advances in the fight against cancer in the last 50 years. There have been more advances in the last week then in the last million years of woo woo.

6. Synthetic compounds are organic, and indistinguishable from natural products.

7. Aspirin does not come from tree bark.

8. Water cannot be used as a fuel.

9. Saturated fats are natural. The biological role of fats is not the transport of other nutrients.

10. Mercury in vaccines as a preservative is acceptable.

11. Vaccines do not contain chicken.

That's just a few of them.

[Recursion]

193. *cough*

6. Synthetic compounds are organic, and indistinguishable from natural products.

Chirality...

You're also being equivocal about the word "organic".

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

199. The synthetically made enantiomer...

is organic and indistinguishable from natural products.

Equivocal about organic as applied to molecules?

What, are you afraid the synthetic molecule is going to have pesticide residue all over it?

[Recursion]

203. What? No

The synthetically made enantiomer is organic and indistinguishable from natural products.

Again, no. Enantiomers have chirality, and synthetics are (generally) equally right- and left-handed, and tissues react differently to differently-chiral molecules. That's "distinguishable". We can approach statistically pure synthetic enantiomer samples, but organisms produce absolutely chiral (generally, right-handed) molecules, period.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

204. That's why I specified enantiomer, silly.

The, say, R-enantiomer of a natural product made synthetically is absolutely indistinguishable from the natural product.

"We can approach statistically pure synthetic enantiomer samples, but organisms produce absolutely chiral (generally, right-handed) molecules, period."

Generally right handed?

LOL.

Go study some chemistry then get back to me.

[Recursion]

212. *bwah*

Go study some chemistry then get back to me.

:eyes: yeah, I'll get right on that after my thesis, dude.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

218. Great.

I'd like to know what your committee thinks of organisms producing "generally right-handed molecules."

[Recursion]

220. Reading comprehension problem?

I said organisms produce absolutely chiral samples while synthetic production is (at best) statistically pure in its chirality, which is still true, and still deflates your claim that they're "indistinguishable". We generally define the chirality produced by organisms (for molecules where the mechanical and/or EM distinction is not obvious) as "right-handed".

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

228. I comprehend the science, which is why I'm so amused.

"I said organisms produce absolutely chiral samples while synthetic production is (at best) statistically pure in its chirality, which is still true, and still deflates your claim that they're "indistinguishable"."

I know you said that, but it's wrong. Compounds can be made synthetically which are enantiomerically pure. Just as pure as the biologically produced stuff.

"We generally define the chirality produced by organisms (for molecules where the mechanical and/or EM distinction is not obvious) as "right-handed"."

Maybe you generally do, but scientists? No, sorry, I have problems believing even a sophomore organic chem student would make such a blatant error.

Molecules aren't defined as right or left handed. Stereocenters are defined as right or left handed. Or more properly, R or S (with more archaic nomenclature depending on what you're working with.) Whether the stereocenter is R or S isn't dependent on where it comes from, but the arrangment of the groups. And that arrangement of the groups is entirely artificial and arbitrary, and was decided by IUPAC decades ago.

Organisms produce molecules with both the R and S configuration in essentially equal amount, and since most biological molecules have more than one stereocenter, they often have both R and S.

[eridani]

257. And when you synthesize a racemic mixture, you separate the enantiomers--

--by passing them through columns with chiral packings. Enantiomers resolved--problem solved.

[truedelphi]

213. May I point out -

1) the product that makes up the placebo might not cure anything, but if a person thinks a certain item contains something that will help them, they may cure their illness through their own inner self-hypnosis regarding the disease having to face down its "cure".

5) You say: 5. There have been significant advances in the fight against cancer in the last 50 years. There have been more advances in the last week then in the last million years of woo woo.
Can I point out - homo sapiens have only been on the planet for around 250,000 years. And early humans did not die of cancer. they may have lived in a tough and hostile world, but there was not much in that environment that would set off cancerous growths. Cancer is a disease of more industrialized times. Before humans started in mining metals, I doubt that there were any deaths due to this disease.

How much advancement against cancer we are making is very debatable. Each year, we create more "necessary" pollutants that take out more numbers of people. My generation was told to quit smoking, and so we did. But the younger generation of women, including women who have never smoked, are dying off from a new type of lung cancer that is resistant to treatment and fast acting (Chris Reeves' wife Marla died of this type of lung cancer just a year or so after he died.)

Does this new form of lung cancer show up because of all the Lysols, Glade air fresheners, benzene and formaldehyde containing perfumes the younger crowd has been told, via advertising, to use continuously? And how much money goes into researching the answer to this question of mine? The same corporations that produce these products control the nation's university research labs through their funding. (Novartis, for example, "gifted" UC Berkeley with 50 million bucks.)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

224. You can point out all the made up nonsense you want.

"1) the product that makes up the placebo might not cure anything, but if a person thinks a certain item contains something that will help them, they may cure their illness through their own inner self-hypnosis regarding the disease having to face down its "cure"."

Self-hypnosis isn't a cure for a disease. It's just the patient no longer complaining.

"Can I point out - homo sapiens have only been on the planet for around 250,000 years."

250,000 < 1,000,000 statement holds.

"And early humans did not die of cancer."

In fact, they did die of skin cancer. High melanin content is a defensive mechanism to protect against skin cancer. And cancer is one of the earliest described diseases, first reported some 2,400 years ago.

"Before humans started in mining metals, I doubt that there were any deaths due to this disease."

Animals get cancer, and they don't mine metals.

"Each year, we create more "necessary" pollutants that take out more numbers of people. "

Actually, in post-industrial societies, such as the United States, pollution has been going down for decades as have pollution related illnesses. Not that it has anything to do with woo woo.

"But the younger generation of women, including women who have never smoked, are dying off from a new type of lung cancer that is resistant to treatment and fast acting"

No, the younger generation of women are dying of the same old fashioned lung cancer. It has recently surpassed deaths due to breast cancer. And that is because of earlier diagnosis and treatment of breast cancer (and by mammograms and chemotherapy, not ouija boards and crystals). Because awareness has lowered breast cancer rates, there is more education out there for women and lung cancer. That's probably what you're tuning into.

"Chris Reeves' wife Marla died of this type of lung cancer just a year or so after he died."

Chris Reeve's wife was named Dana.

"Does this new form of lung cancer show up because of all the Lysols, Glade air fresheners, benzene and formaldehyde containing perfumes the younger crowd has been told, via advertising, to use continuously?"

No. The amount of formaldehyde and benzene produced is trivial and well below rates that cause cancer.

"And how much money goes into researching the answer to this question of mine?"

Difficult to say. Studying the toxicity of benzene and formaldehyde is cobbled together from other work, much of it done years and years ago.

"The same corporations that produce these products control the nation's university research labs through their funding. (Novartis, for example, "gifted" UC Berkeley with 50 million bucks.)"

Novartis is not in the lysol business.

[defendandprotect]

246. True . . .

humans have thousands of cancer cells floating around in their bodies at all times.

The problem is obviously with the immune system.

And, patriarchy's love of filth and pollution -- soil, water, air.

[TrogL]

235. They're a drain on the health care system

(remember, it's socialized medicine up here).

People take these things, waste a lot of money on something that doesn't work, get sicker, then end up in the hospital on the taxpayer dime.

[woo me with science]

247. It's such a disingenuous argument.

Nobody here is opposing medications simply because they are made from natural materials. The argument is not against remedies because they are natural, but rather against remedies that don't work.

We have one effective way of determining whether any remedy actually works, and that is the scientific method. Your side is the one touting certain remedies as "better" simply because they are "natural," in the absence of scientific evidence.

If you can provide such evidence, fine. I don't think anyone here will have difficulty accepting a new medication with proof of its effectiveness.

However, when purveyors of an "alternative medicine" cocktail claim that they don't need to do such testing, or that their remedy relies on some elusive, magical property that cannot be measured by science, then, yes....

we will call it woo.

[dorkulon]

267. +1

:headbang:

[Ms. Toad]

277. But the pre-"proof of effectiveness" reaction

to news that someone is using an unproven "natural" remedy is very different to to the news that someone is using an unproven "traditional" remedy (in reference to this comment: "If you can provide such evidence, fine. I don't think anyone here will have difficulty accepting a new medication with proof of its effectiveness."

Nothing, at the time of its introduction, early use, or new use for established treatments, has "proof of its effectiveness," whatever its nature.

Of the treatments available for the life threatening illness my daughter has, there are (at least) two relatively common treatments which have been similarly studied - one pharmaceutical, the other "natural." Neither, at the time she was diagnosed, had scientifically valid proof of effectiveness.

The medication derived through "traditional" medicine was presumed to be a responsible choice for treatment even though it had no scientifically valid "proof of effectiveness." My daughter, and thousands of others with her condition, were placed on the medication, based on studies that were not large enough, or appropriately designed, to be scientifically valid. This medication has been the standard treatment for her condition for at least a decade.

In contrast the treatment that came from "alternative" sources and has similar levels of observational but not scientifically valid studies reported in similar journals. It is presumed to be an irresponsible choice for treatment because there is not yet "proof of its effectiveness."

When I asked about this "natural" treatment for my daughter's condition - which finds similar support in journal articles to the medication my daughter was placed on - her doctor's response was, "the studies are mixed" "It hasn't been proven effective" - comments which were equally true, but which he did not make, about the "traditional" treatment.

Ironically, the "traditional" medication, based on the first random, stage matched, double-blind placebo trial is now presumed to be harmful (the study was reported about 3 weeks ago, but it was terminated early by the controlling board because of the unexpected results - further studies will be needed since this one was not completed, but will redesigned based on the early results of this first study in order to be considered ethical.)

For what it is worth, none of the earlier studies had shown the "traditional" treatment to be effective. At best it produced temporary biochemical changes which provided symptom relief for some individuals but appeared to leave the ultimate outcome and timing of the disease unchanged. I knew that information at the time (since I had done the research) - but my daughter's physician did not share this information with me. He nonetheless felt compelled to share the very similar information about the "natural" treatment with me. The change regarding the "traditional" medication with the new study 3 weeks ago is that it does alter the outcome and timing of the outcome, for the worse. Despite this new revelation (which doctors had early reports of last November), it is still being prescribed to newly diagnosed patients as the best medicine has to offer.

My problem isn't with requiring proof of effectiveness before abandoning something that is proven to be effective. I would require that whatever the source of the treatment. My concern, and the reason this thread seems to have been started, is the double standard which, when no options for treatment have yet been proven effective, judges which choices are responsible or not based not on the quality or quantity of research, but on the nature of the treatment.

My daughter is currently being treated based on the documented observation of the impact a particular treatment had on 14 others before. Not even close to scientifically proven effective. I am very grateful she has this opportunity, and I have yet to have anyone criticize that choice as irresponsible - because that treatment happens to use "traditional" medicine prescribed by a physician.

If, on the other hand, she were following a treatment considered "natural" that was based on a similar level of reported and documented observations (and if she were still underage), I know darn well that there would be suggestions that I have no right to subject my daughter to "woo-woo" medicine, and that the courts should step in and save her from irresponsible parenting.

I want the same standards applied, regardless of the nature of treatment - and currently, it is not. Treatments which are "natural" or "alternative" are deemed "woo-woo" until proven otherwise; treatments which are "traditional" are deemed responsible choices until - and sometimes even after - they are proven not to be effective or to be actually harmful.

[RobinA]

260. They Don't Make Me Crazy

or rude and insulting, but I find two aspects annoying. One is that there proponents are yet another example of the anti-science, anti-intellectual, anti-knowledge attitude that is all to prevalent in this country. Second is that one can't engage in a rational discussion on the subject because the pro-alternative crowd doesn't use facts. This causes great frustration.

[ThomWV]

268. I only get crazy about it when its someone I care about, anyone else can kill themself if they like.