American guns help fuel Mexico's drug trade killings

[marmar]

from the WaPo:



Report: Guns Flow South Thanks to U.S.


The federal government has failed to develop an coordinated strategy to stop the illegal trafficking of firearms into Mexico, according to a new government report.

The General Accountability Office investigation released today (pdf) cites Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives data that approximates 87 percent of firearms seized by Mexican authorities and submitted to the U.S. for tracing in the last five years came from the U.S., and found that roughly one quarter of the guns seized are high-caliber, high-powered assault style weapons, including AK-47s and AR-15s.

Most of the illegal weapons that cross the border are intended to support Mexican drug cartels, lending added firepower to an already lethal Mexican drug war.

Investigators concluded that uncoordinated government efforts have hampered efforts to stop the gun flow. .........(more)

The complete piece is at: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/federal-eye/2009/06/a_scathing_new_report_conclude.html?hpid=news-col-blog

[tridim]

1. Texas' gift to the rest of America

Fuck you very much.

[Raskolnik]

17. Don't you think the gun smugglers might be more deserving of that "fuck you?"

As fun as it is to blame a landmass, there might be a little more to it.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tridim]

32. Well I can't really blame Wisconsin.

So instead I'll blame the state that is causing at least half the problems addressed in the article.

If Texas actually cared about this problem they could put a stop to it almost immediately.

[Raskolnik]

45. Can't really blame gun smugglers either, apparently. n/t

[tridim]

47. Yes, gun smugglers who do business in TX because TX politicians don't give a shit. nt

[Raskolnik]

50. Do you also blame Columbia for the insatiable drug habit of the U.S.?

If you want to curtail smuggling of any kind, the answer is not to curtail the rights of people that follow that laws already. If you really cared about this, why aren't you arguing for tightening the border, or reforming the insane war on drugs that is the underlying cause of all of this?

[tridim]

71. We don't have the right to smuggle arms to Mexico.

That said, I think the drug war should be halted immediately. I'm not sure why you assumed otherwise.

Texas could be a pioneer on this issue and essentially kill two birds with one stone, but unfortunately Texas is so bass-ackwards that they'll probably be the last state to do so.

[Raskolnik]

73. Of course we don't have the "right" to smuggle arms to Mexico.

There are numerous laws making that clear. People that smuggle arms to Mexico to arm the drug cartels should be punished severely. You, however, only focus on restricting the rights of those who are already obeying the law.

What *additional* laws/restrictions do you think should be put in place that would cease arms smuggling to Mexico?

[krispos42]

2. If they are seizing weapons in Mexico...

...that came from America, then they'll have serial numbers on them. Which can be used to track down the gun's original purchaser, at the minimum, which would presumebly be the straw purchaser for the gunrunners.

So, where are the prosecutions by the ATF? Seems to me there should have been dozens of arrests by now... if it was in fact American guns they are seizing.

[Ron Green]

3. Isn't this just part of NAFTA?

The Almighty Free Market at work.

[safeinOhio]

4. Is that where all the amo is going?

[Romulox]

5. (Two guys bunp into each other) Hey! You got DRUGS in my GUNS! Well you got GUNS in *my* DRUGS!

Seriously? Aren't these two great tastes that taste great together?

[anonymous171]

6. Instead of banning guns we should legalize drugs.

That would be a much better way to end the violence, don't you think?

[Fumesucker]

7. Exactly...

This entire charade could be brought to a halt in a single afternoon with just a signature or two.

But there are too many people making too much money, on both sides of the law.

[Romulox]

9. People constantly bray on about history, but apparently Prohibition offers no lessons for us.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to shoot someone over some gin distilled in a bathtub.

[dorkulon]

59. Yes'm

But both would work for me too.

[SammyWinstonJack]

77. That makes too much sense and besides the private prisons won't like that.

[texasleo]

8. No need to enforce the laws, just delete the Bill of Rights.

[old mark]

10. I notice this comes from the SF Chronicle of 2 years ago.....

Bullshit walks....

mark

[marmar]

15. Fine. I replaced it with a WaPo article from today......

I guess it's walking backward

[old mark]

35. The articls is a rehash of stuff that's been sadi before, and the

writer knows nothing about guns. The law enforcement community is terribly uncoordinated, and -given all the garbage legislation after 9-11 - is obviously not capable of tracing the serial numbers of a few firearms.
This is the tragedy here - the cops have absorbed billions of dollars and have been granted sweeping and probably really illegal new powers and are still not compenent.

This country is the most inefficient, poorly run nation in the first world and I am sure many of the drug exporters/gun importers are laughing their asses off.

What I am not seeing is the typical offended cry for "tougher new laws" probably because the Law enforcement bozos can not enforce what laws we already have.

I'll keep my own guns, thanks, so I don't have to rely on the law enforcement community in this country so heavily...they are obviously overstressed as it is.

Oh, yeah - try finding an article tracing the cash flow from the drug dealers to the politicians and the cops - I bet that would be interesting.....

mark

[Deja Q]

11. I thought the manufacture of guns was done offshore?

:hide:

[Jack_DeLeon]

12. Mexico is free to secure its own border if it chooses...

Our rights here in American should not be infringed on for the sake of those in other countries.

Its Mexico's responsibility to protect its citizens, not ours.

[anonymous171]

13. Ah, but political instability in Mexico hurts our corporations' profits.

So of course we must make sacrifices in order to help them out.

[Romulox]

25. On the contrary: it GUARANTEES a flow of cheap labor. nt

[anonymous171]

40. I think you are overlooking the fact that Mexico is a prime offshoring location

An unstable Mexico is bad for business.

[Romulox]

46. Bad for *some* business. Ask ConAgra or Tyson if Mexican instability helps their bottom lines!

[proteus_lives]

14. Maybe the could do something about the drugs then?

If they're so concerned about weapons coming into Mexico, why don't they work on stopping the flow of the Cartels money and stop the drugs from leaving Mexico?

[ThomWV]

16. It seems to me that if there were true Mexico would be knee-deep in guns by now

Seriously, if even a small portion of the money paid for drugs from Mexico were used to buy american guns you wouldn't be able to walk in Mexico for the depth of guns that would pile up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Given the amount of high powered weapons captured down there

you are pretty close

[MercutioATC]

19. If they're "high-powered weapons", they're not AR-15s or AK-47 clones.

Most hunting rifles are "higher-powered".

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. They are AR 15, and AK 47

In fact, the Cuerno de Chivo has a very distinct sound and pattern if you catch my drift.

No, that is not just a line in a movie

Of course there is also the every so popular 50 cal snipe system.

[MercutioATC]

22. Ok, then with the exception of the .50, they're NOT "high-powered weapons".

...and, unless they're real AK-47s (and I doubt they are), they're just semiautomatic rifles with less "power" than your average hunting rifle.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. I guess in the US assault weapons are not high powered weapons

in the rest of the world, the definition I like to work with, THEY ARE.

And I don't care if they are modified to semi auto or not.

And no, I will not get into this discussion AGAIN. This country has a problem with weapons and what its citizens like to define as high powered and what they like to define as NOT high powered.

[MercutioATC]

24. ...and herein lies the crux of the problem. Ignorance.

(and I use "ignorance" in it's true sense...a lack of knowledge and/or understanding)

The U.S. legal definition of "assault weapon" has nothing to do with "power" (caliber) or lethality...suitability for illegal or wartime use. It's a definition based on how a rifle looks.

So when you say that U.S. "assault weapons" are high-powered weapons, you're making it clear that you don't understand the definition of "assault weapon".

(and they'd be modified to "full-auto" or "select-fire". They're already "semi-auto")

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. And here lies the beauty of ASSUMING

I do have a clue

As I said, you can work with whatever definition you want to work with. I'll work whit the one used by INTERNATIONAL law enforcement... such a Interpol

I am sure they are also ignorant fools, of course they are... what the fuck I am talking about

Now here is your flee clue of the day.

I have taken care of casualties injured by both low powered weapons and high powered weapons and worked along side people carrying both. That is your free clue of the day... by the way, in case you wonder that included a tactical entry team or two

[MercutioATC]

28. Then you know that a .22 is perfectly capable of killing somebody.

...but putting a collapsible stock and a pistol grip on it doesn't make it a "high-powered" anything.

"High powered" , to me, would seem to be an indicator of:

1) A "high-powered" caliber, and/or

2) a high rate of fire (automatic).

...otherwise, what's "high powered" about it?


AR-15s and AK-47 semiautomatic clones have neither.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Yes and a 22, from a pistol that is. can also do weird shit

when hitting a head at medium range. Yes true story, a patient of mine who got shot at about medium range. The bullet went in, travelled UNDER the skin, never broke the bone, and came out the other way.

Yep, one of those unfrigging amazing... but hey a 22 short has very little stopping power

That said, I will continue to work with the definition used by most responsible people. By the way in the US an M-16 is an assault weapon by definition... the AR -15 is slightly modified, but with the proper ammo, and some mods it does the same damage... guess what is going on down there? Why most nations don't make that distinction

[Irreverend IX]

69. More proof you don't know what you're talking about...

The AR-15 doesn't need "some mods" to do the same damage as the M16, since they both fire 5.56 they will do the exact same amount of damage if you use the same ammo. And 5.56 is not "high-powered" by any reasonable definition. It is one of the weakest rifle cartridges available, used mostly for varmint shooting before the US military adopted it. The whole reason modern armed forces use assault rifles is because they've found that high volume of fire is preferable to using powerful rounds.

[X_Digger]

75. Granddad's hunting rifle...

.. is more powerful than most 'assault weapons'.

[Paladin]

33. "Crux Of The Problem" My Ass

The crux of the problem is the flow of guns into Mexico. It sure as hell isn't any failure to precisely describe those firearms in a way that's pleasing to gun obsessives. Stick to what's really critical here, or go back down to the Gun Dungeon where such esoteric details are important.....

[MercutioATC]

34. So if there was an "influx" of hunting rifles into Mexico, it'd draw the same attention?

I'm not making a RKBA argument, I'm saying that this whole "story" is media hype.

The guns being brought into Mexico from the U.S. are less "high powered" than the average hunting rifle. There's absolutely NOTHING about them that distinguishes them from most commonly-owned guns except for the way they LOOK.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

39. The OP belongs in the gungeon according to the rules.

[Raskolnik]

43. If you are talking about regulating something, aren't those "esoteric details" rather important?

If someone sought to justify pot being placed in the same category as heroin for purposes determining sentences for posession with intent to distribute, would you take seriously someone describing pot as a "high-powered" drug?

Facts matter, Paladin.

[alarimer]

44. The gun obsessives are busy trying to deny that this is a problem.

The cognitive dissonance is unreal. Their particular fetish is responsible for countless deaths in this country and is fueling violence south of the borders. The problem really lies in our ridiculously permissive gun culture.

[Raskolnik]

49. I believe our ridiculously ineffective "war on drugs" might have more to do with this.

But it is easier to blame an inanimate object, I'll give you that.

[Edweird]

60. The AR15 isn't high powered. What you think about that doesn't change reality.

It is illegal in many states to hunt deer with .223 (the caliber of the AR15). Why? Because it isn't powerful enough to kill humanely (quickly). If it isn't powerful enough for Bambi, then it damn sure isn't 'high powered' - no matter what you or whoever else decides. You can also believe the moon is made of cheese, but that doesn't make it so. Sorry.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. Yeah I know the argument and it still does not fly

sorry, I will stick with INTERNATIONAL DEFINITIONS....

Have a nice day.

[Edweird]

72. So, cite some of your "international definitions" (IF you have any). Here's a couple for you....

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/556.htm

"Soldiers have persistently criticized the round for its lack of stopping power"

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1986/MVT.htm

"Although the selection of the 5.56mm was based on extensive testing, research,
and documented battle performance, this intermediate power round
is not the optimum ammunition and caliber for U. S. and NATO
forces in the contemplated battlefields of the future."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56x45mm_NATO

"There has been much criticism of the poor performance of the bullet on target, especially the first-shot kill rate when using firearms that don't achieve the velocity to cause fragmentation."

"Combat operations the past few months have again highlighted terminal performance deficiencies with 5.56x45mm 62 gr. M855 FMJ. These problems have primarily been manifested as inadequate incapacitation of enemy forces despite their being hit multiple times by M855 bullets."

It is NOT high power.

[Edweird]

62. "And I don't care if they are modified to semi auto or not."

What were they before the conversion to semi auto? Bolt action?

Clueless.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. No, you are the clueless one

The original weapon was first only full auto

Waste of ammo led to selector switches for single, three shot and full auto

Next question?

By the way, having TREATED victims of these guns, and worked along side TACTICAL ENTRY TEAMS, go cry me a river ok.

[Edweird]

70. Trying to present yourself as some kind of authority when the fact are so easily available

is foolish.

"AR-15 (for Armalite model 15,<9> often mistaken for Assault Rifle) is the common name for the widely-owned<10> semi-automatic rifle which soon afterwards became the fully automatic M16 and M4 carbine assault rifles, which are currently in use by the United States military"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15

Try using facts instead of typical kneejerk gun grabber nonsense.

"Oooh it's scary looking so it must be high powered" isn't exactly sophisticated, and just 'making up facts' doesn't fly either.

[ThomWV]

27. Well, that's not correct

The power of the gun is related to the bullet it is shooting and the barrel, not what sort of action it has. Automatic or simi-automatic makes no difference at all.

As far as high power goes its a term generally associated with any center-fire cartridge though many of the CF .22' don't count. However by the time you get the the 7mm round they are pretty much universally called High Powered rifles. As for the AK it can shoot a .308 Winchester round in a pinch and you can buy all of that ammunition you want at most any sporting goods store. However for the most part a 30-'06 (which is very much an average hunting round, being the most common one used overall) will pack more power as you said - just not enough more to make any real difference at all and maybe none at all depending on actual bullet weight. Just so you know.

[MercutioATC]

31. Oh, I'm aware. I'm allowing for alternate definitions of "high-powered"

Post #28 kinda addresses that.

[Mugu]

53. Not looking to start an argument,

but how in the world are you going to stuff a 7.62x51 into a 7.62x39 chamber? Perhaps you're thinking about you can fire 7.62 NATO in a .308 Winchester, but you shouldn't fire a .308 in a weapon (think M14/M1A) designed for the 7.62x51 NATO due to pressure differences rather than dimensional differences.

Regards, Mugu

[ThomWV]

64. Sorry ...

Sorry, my mistake, however my point was to show that military and civilian rounds are generally based on the same caliber and that other than convention requirements have no special powerful component. You bang somebody with a .223 and it won't make any difference if it came out of a military or civilian weapon for a real common example.

[Mugu]

68. Your point is well taken and I'm in complete agreement.

I drag myself home every morning and empty my pockets. As I get older I find that more and more I'm looking to substitute aluminum and lightweight alloys for steel and brass as long as there's no degradation of performance.

In any line of work results are the only thing that matters.

[dorkulon]

61. Big effing whoop.

Your semantic nitpicking aside, I'm pretty sure any bullet that pierces one's skull is "high powered" enough.

AKs and ARs can be fired rapidly without reloading. That's more than just an aesthetic quality.

[MercutioATC]

76. So can any semiautomatic hunting rifle.

Hell, a revolver with a couple of speedloaders can be fired rapidly, and reloading is a 3-second process.

...and ANY bullet can pierce a skull. That doesn't make them "high powered".

[dorkulon]

78. So what?

I understand that doesn't fit the technical term, but that's just not relevant to most people. Not nearly as relevant as rapid fire and how many bullets can be fired before reload.

[Edweird]

74. Oh good lord, you're quoting 'Hearbreak Ridge'? Seriously?

http://www.great-quotes.com/cgi-bin/viewquotes.cgi?action=search&Movie=Heartbreak+Ridge

(1 votes) Highway: This is the AK-47 assault rifle, the preferred weapon of your enemy; and it makes a distinctive sound when fired at you, so remember it.

http://www.great-quotes.com/cgi-bin/viewquotes.cgi?action=search&Movie=Heartbreak+Ridge

[Mugu]

20. I love how the writer tries to infer that the majority of weapons seized come from the US.

But, what is really said is that of the seized weapons that they send to the US for tracing 87% are found to originate in the US.

There is no reason to send weapons with Russian or Chinese markings to the US for tracing. Why don't they just tell us what the percentage of total seized weapons originate in the US. I'm going to guess it's because the number wouldn't be that impressive.

What the hell is a "high-caliber" weapon anyway, and who other than a moron would refer to the 5.56x45 or the 7.62x39 as "high-powered"?

[depakid]

29. Trying to avoid and rationalize facts doesn't make them go away

Fact is, gun proliferation advocates ARE responsible for worsening this- and many other situations.

[Fumesucker]

37. No, drug warriors ARE responsible for not only worsening but starting this whole thing

In the first place..

Without the drug war there would be no illegal drug traffickers and they wouldn't be importing large quantities of "high powered guns".

Until we can properly identify the problem a solution will be forever out of reach.

[Raskolnik]

38. If by "gun proliferation advocates" you mean gun smugglers, I agree.

Somehow, though, I doubt that you are seeking to place blame on the people that are actually breaking the law.

[depakid]

57. I'm talking about people who advocate making weapons easilty avaliable and accessible

Basically- the definition of proliferation.

[Raskolnik]

58. And by that you mean "people who don't want the 2A ignored"

But let's give you a magic wand--what laws do you propose, in Texas or otherwise, that would stop this flood of high-powered firearms from going south across the border?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

42. The fact that less than a 1/4 of the guns were traced. Or just the facts you like.

[Romulox]

48. Ut-oh. Drug War apologia (along with a lot of ad homs) to follow! nt

[Mugu]

54. Exactly which facts are you accusing me of avoiding and rationalizing?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

41. Or the fact that less than 1/4 of the guns seized were traced.

[X_Digger]

52. Exactly..

As if the AR-15 weren't less powerful than granddad's .30-06.


(22lr shown for comparison)

Heck, there's a bunch of calibers more powerful than the 5.56x45.

Here's a graph..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=222841#222841

And a table..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=214519

[aikoaiko]

51. Only 17 percent of guns found at Mexican crime scenes have been traced to the U.S."

Apparently the actual % of ALL guns that were seized in Mexico that originated in the US is MUCH smaller than 90%. The lower end of the estimate may be as low as 17%.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2009/04/02/myth-percent-guns-mexico-fraction-number-claimed/

There's just one problem with the 90 percent "statistic" and it's a big one:

It's just not true.

In fact, it's not even close. The fact is, only 17 percent of guns found at Mexican crime scenes have been traced to the U.S.

What's true, an ATF spokeswoman told FOXNews.com, in a clarification of the statistic used by her own agency's assistant director, "is that over 90 percent of the traced firearms originate from the U.S."

But a large percentage of the guns recovered in Mexico do not get sent back to the U.S. for tracing, because it is obvious from their markings that they do not come from the U.S.

I know...consider the source. I've not seen anyone deny that the number is much lower than 90%, some have said that the numbers may be somewhat higher than 17%.

[Pavulon]

55. Monkeys and Cigarette plan

so full of stinking bullshit I dont know where to start. "high-caliber, high-powered assault style weapons", word? That is classic stupid.

[MadHound]

56. What this article doesn't mention is that America's demand for drugs is what is truly fueling

The drug war. Just one more reason that we need to legalize drugs. No drugs, no drug money, no drug lords, no drug war.

If we don't, this war is going to continue to creep up into our country, not to mention that we'll have a failed narco-state sitting on our border.

[Edweird]

63. "Gun politics in Mexico have resulted in some of the strictest gun laws in the world."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Mexico

Mexico needs to get their own house in order. They have massive corruption and many others issues that ARE NOT MY PROBLEM.

I'm not giving up my rights for that.

[Tim01]

67. How many times do we have to show this isn't true? nt