Southern Baptists said to be stagnating, need new direction. Cultivated "too narrow a base".

[madfloridian]

Some of the leaders of this church are starting to recognize that they are not going to move forward by concentrating on fighting abortion, gays, and trying to make women be in submission to their husbands. I do wish them luck on this realization, because the more common sense leaders have their battle cut out for them.

After reading this article, I think only a few understand the real problem is not so much what they are against as what they stand for as a church.

Southern Baptists look for cures to stagnation

Decades of painful conservative-moderate fights. Stagnant baptism rates. Membership malaise. Surveying the state of the Southern Baptist Convention, seminary president Danny Akin can sum it all up in six words: "Business as usual is not working."

Seeking to turn things around for the nation's largest Protestant body, Akin has teamed with SBC President Johnny Hunt to draft a "Great Commission Resurgence" declaration that will be presented to the Baptists' annual meeting June 23-24 in Louisville, Ky. The goal is to find a new way forward after several high-profile campaigns to boost the number of baptisms -- a key measure of vitality and an article of faith for Baptists -- fell flat. Hunt told one Baptist newspaper that the SBC is like a ship that is "adrift" and needs to consider ridding itself of unnecessary "cargo."

This guy gets it.

"I think in many ways, the Southern Baptist Convention mirrors the Republican Party in that they have cultivated such a narrow base," said the Rev. Bill Leonard, dean of the Wake Forest University School of Divinity in Winston-Salem, N.C.

"They have to keep defining themselves to say to a new generation, 'Here's what we delivered you from,' because this new generation doesn't remember."

Those fights included whether to boycott the Walt Disney Co., forbidding women pastors, telling wives to "submit graciously" to their husbands and screening out would-be missionaries who pray in tongues, as well as public-square battles over abortion and homosexuality. Akin, the 52-year-old president of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest, N.C., says the annual fights over hot-button theological or social issues aren't moving the next generation of Baptists.

The denomination's role in trying to make women submissive to men is like going backwards in time. Those who are more moderate in their view of women's issues are facing a huge task. The extreme elements in the SBC are well-organized and hold positions of power.

The Purpose-Driven Wife: Teaching women to submit to their husbands, for the love of Christ

If the words Purpose Driven sound familiar, it's because Rick Warren is mentioned in the article as an advocate of this submission of women. So also is Al Mohler, who serves as the ninth president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary-the flagship school of the Southern Baptist Convention and one of the largest seminaries in the world.

A woman's place:

Those priorities may include rising early to feed the family, being available anytime to satisfy a husband's desires (barring a few "ungodly" or "homosexual" acts), seeking his approval regarding work, appearance, and leisure, and accepting that he has the "burden" of final say in arguments. After a wife has respectfully appealed her spouse's decision—a privilege she should not abuse—she must accept his final answer as "God's will for her at that time," Peace advises. The godly wife must also suppress selfish desires (for romance, a career, an equitable marriage), practice addressing her spouse in soothing tones, and maintain a private log of bitter thoughts to guide her repentance. "If you disobey your husband," Peace admonishes in The Excellent Wife, "you are indirectly shaking your fist at God."

Many of the advocates of this belief in the submission of women:

..."Indeed, the Titus 2 movement finds its most prominent voices in the Kentucky-based Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood and a roster of conservative male theologians that includes John Piper, founder of Desiring God Ministries; John MacArthur, megachurch pastor of Grace Community Church; Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary; and Bruce Ware, president of the Evangelical Theological Society, who caused a public stir last June when he told a Texas audience that domestic violence often stems from women's lack of submission. (Mohler irked fellow hardliners last fall when he and others reached for loopholes to justify Sarah Palin's candidacy as biblically permissible. "Palin represents the feminist lie that a woman can do it all," countered one critic at fundamentalist website VisionForum.com.)

Some in the SBC are so rigid in their views about women that they removed a magazine from the shelves that had women pastors featured on the cover.

Gospel Today, the Fayetteville-published magazine, was pulled off the racks by the bookstores’ owner, the Southern Baptist Convention. The problem? The five smiling women on the cover are women of the cloth — church pastors. Southern Baptist polity says that’s a role reserved for men.

Teresa Hairston, owner of Gospel Today, whose glossy pages feature upbeat articles about health, living, music and ministry, said she discovered by e-mail that the September/October issue of the magazine had been demoted to the realm of the risque.

“It’s really kind of sad when you have people like Gov. Sarah Palin and Sen. Hillary Clinton providing encouragement and being role models for women around the world that we have such a divergent opinion about women who are able to be leaders in the church,” Hairston said. “I was pretty shocked.”

Chris Turner, a spokesman for Lifeway Resources, which runs the stores for the Southern Baptist Convention, said, “It is contrary to what we believe.”

I read a comment at another forum in which someone said I was anti-religion. It rather surprised me, but I should not have been caught off guard. I am not against religion, I am against those who narrowly interpret the bible and use it against others in a bigoted way. I am against those who "strain at a gnat and swallow a camel." Those who fuss about little while ignoring more serious matters.

The Southern Baptist Church was one of the leading voices in pushing the invasion of Iraq. Look at the things we have done while we have occupied them. That church pushed for what they called a holy war but are adamant that women shall remain in their place and that gays should not have equal rights.

I am thinking it may be too late to fix their situation since the extremists have such control.

It is the same reason I worry that our new president may too easily give in to them at a national level. The Council on Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships has 19 of its 25 members who oppose women's rights of choice. Obama's new representative to oversee faith-based issues at HHS is anti-choice and anti-contraception.

A look into Alexia Kelley’s leadership of CACG reveals a vehement anti-choice stance that is focused on reducing the number of, not the need for, abortions... As Ms. Kelley’s group opposed evidence-based prevention methods such as contraception and comprehensive sexuality education, its “abortion reduction” rhetoric is simply a newly packaged anti-abortion message.
Common ground not looking so good

The Democrats have not put up a fight against the attempts by the religious right to intrude on government policy. They have caved in on women's rights such as abortion and emergency contraception. The Democratic congress even upped the amount to be spent on failed abstinence only education by over 28 million.

The Southern Baptist moderates have their work cut out for them now, with those not so moderate gaining a foothold in national leadership under this administration.

The recent fiasco about the defense of DOMA doesn't inspire much confidence either.

I grew up in the SBC, I wish them well. But I don't think they get it yet. They seem way too concerned still about just what to be against, not what to stand for as a church.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

1. Fine. Let them fail. Good riddance to narrow minded folk.

Christianity in general is old, tired and does not have answers for our lives today. The morals of a bunch of illiterate superstitious goatherders do not work in the 21st century. They have not worked for a helluva long time.

:banghead:

[anonymous171]

6. Perhaps the same could be said of all religions

[BlooInBloo]

12. Sure. But they are not all equally relevant to America as a whole.

[Skittles]

45. I'd agree with that

[sendero]

24. Exactly..

... cry me a river bigots.

[Kalyke]

68. Actually, Christianity is just fine - not old or tired or out-of-touch.

Man's interpretation of Christianity is the problem.

I see nothing wrong or out-dated about Jesus' teachings: peace, community, love, respect, caring for the needy and compassion. I realize many here don't believe in a Higher Power, but one can love God without smearing everyone who doesn't believe in Him.

[NRaleighLiberal]

2. I know! They can move further to the right, and render themselves completely useless!

[donco6]

3. They, like all fundie-leaning denoms, are in a conundrum.

If they stick to their literal interpretations, they lose the young people and the church dies. If they adopt a more open interpretation to Scripture, they almost certainly face a huge church split, along the lines of the Episcopalians joining the Ugandans. And again, the church loses members.

[shimmergal]

35. We Episcopalians haven't lost

all that many members from facing today's issues more openly. Who knows, the worldwide Anglican Communion may yet break up, but the split in members of the U.S. church hasn't been as wrenching as press coverage would have it. Of the few people in my own church that left over the gay bishop issue, all but one have come back, or keep bouncing from our church to the "Anglican" congregation and back again.

[Ex Lurker]

39. the secret if that the vast majority of Southern Baptists pay little attention

to what goes on at the SBC. Southern Baptists are arguably the most decentralized of the protestant denominations. The SBC headquarters has little relevance to and less authority over the local churches, and is largely ignored. It's true that most Southern Baptists are far to the right of the average DUer, but most are not the raving wingnuts one might think. Paradoxically, the SBC can get away with its lunacy precisely BECAUSE most Southern Baptists ignore them.

[msongs]

4. their anti-gay virulence has been surpassed by the mormons nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. You Can Join The Church Of Christ-They Are Open And Affirming

A lot of churches are moving away from the anti-gay rhetoric.

[rateyes]

11. I believe you mean the United Church of Christ.

The Church of Christ, without the "United" in front of it are still hate-mongers.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. My Bad, The UCC

I was baptized in a Baptist Church when I was fourteen but I wasn't really a fundamentalist even then...I became "saved" because I was scared of going to Hell.., I remain "saved" because I love the Lord and think Jesus was a great role model. He was non judgmental, fed the poor, comforted the aggrieved and afflicted. I think his teachings of love and forgiveness are as relevant today as they were 2,000 years ago, " "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you."

I met this woman pastor of the UCC church near me. We became instant friends. The hour and one half I spent chatting with her about my problem was as productive as any I have ever spent with a counselor. It does help that she has a religious and secular education.

[get the red out]

66. You must be United CoC not regular CoC

From what I read United Church of Christ is a very accepting denomination. But regular Church of Christ is whacko, important distinction.

My parents are CoC and growing up that church was totally about isolation and believing that they were the "one true Church" and everyone else goes to hell. No instrumental music allowed, straight to hell.

My family is like the Sunni and the Shia with Church of Christ on one side and Baptists on the other, each hating the other denomination to their last breath and each declaring the other is doomed to hell for walking through the wrong door. Every slight from one branch to the other is taken as having a religious undertone.

The Church of Christ left me almost unable to obtain any kind of spiritual peace, and finding that took a long time.

My parents actually believe that CoC has been around since Christ, did not have it's roots the Protestant reformation at all, but developed separate from Catholicism all those years, is the one true Church and therefore is not a "denomination". And there is absolute proof of it's beginnings in the late 19th century as a part of something called the "Second Great Awakening" when they broke from the Presbyterians. And my parents are smart Democrats otherwise and they had a lot of arguments with people at their Church trying to spread lies about Obama during the election last year and came to his defense every time. My father is one of the most intelligent men I have ever known and is absolutely up to date on all political issues; but despite being on the internet every day continues to believe absolute historical untruths concerning his church.

Anyway, big difference between United CoC and the non-instrumental music CoC. Oh, and if you miss a church service on Sunday and die before the next one - straight to hell, doesn't matter if you sat at the right hand of Jesus by your actions all your life.

[Lars39]

70. You know what's interesting, though?

Southern Baptists have become more like the COC over the past 20 years or so.

[get the red out]

71. It seems!

They have gone absolutely mad. My Baptist Deacon Grandfather was not the viscious monster Baptist males try to be today. The hadred of women wasn't evident in his household, just the opposite.

[Lars39]

75. I've seen it occur, inch by inch.

Very frightening to see once decent people turn like that. It's like they've stopped thinking for themselves.

[get the red out]

79. Exactly!

They become robotic. And the Baptists have worsened in that regard over the years. About 12 years ago I worked for an Assistant Dean at the local university and she said jokingly that in her son's (Baptist) Sunday School class they discussed "submission" and the teacher asked the teenaged group if their Mothers submitted to their fathers and her son just started laughing. I don't think she realized the implications there, she just thought the teaching was silly and her son's reaction hilarious. Obviously being raised Baptist had not prevented her from becoming a college professor, but she was in her early 50s, so I wonder about now. She also only had two natural children and adopted a third, and her husband played as much part in child care as she did.

All that was just part of them going so far right that their more normal membership didn't get the seriousness of the crap until too many people became too brainwashed to stop it. Fear causes people to turn their thinking over to others. It is a hard fear to fight, when you have been told that fighting it leads to eternal damnation (been there done that).

[Lars39]

81. Sometimes I think it's just as simple as members thinking

it's just the new preacher...that they'll just wait him out and hope they get someone "better" next time around. The next preacher is even more outrageous in his beliefs, although he's really just adhering to the latest SB convention. Unhappy people start leaving in dribs and drabs, and what's left is the hardcore or those in serious denial to what their church has become. :(

[nosmokes]

7. WOW! Who coulda known the more people communicate and learn about

each other that prejudice and narrow-mindedness, coupled with a suspicion of new ideas and a denial of science in favor of superstitious BS wouldn't be a growth industry?!?

[katandmoon]

8. Hope they keep shrinking to the point they disappear.

[rateyes]

9. As a graduate of a Southern Baptist seminary...

the same one from which LBJ's press secretary Bill Moyers graduated from...and, having been in that fight, and now happily out of it, I can tell you that the Southern Baptist Convention will be a shell of its former self within 40 years.

We live in a post-Christian society, and the Southern Baptist Convention and the rest of the right-wing fundamentalists whackos have only themselves to blame. Judgmental assholes, every last one of them.

If only they had followed Jesus instead of their self-made doctrines.

[madfloridian]

23. You make some good points.

I find myself thinking about the ministers graduating from Mohler's seminary....and wondering if they are as close-minded as he is.

[rateyes]

26. I can tell you that they come out of some very close minded churches.

But, still, I think that as time passes they might realize that if they are going to survive they will have to be a lot less mean than their parents.

I have a gay brother who used to be a Southern Baptist. He says that fundamentalism will die a slow painful death. He says that the reason he believes that is that, with the gay issue for instance, that the people sitting in the pews will hear their preachers spewing hatred toward gays, and they will think to themselves, "Well, I do think that homosexuality might be a sin, but I'm just not that damned mean."

I hope society is moving in that direction, anyway.

[DKRC]

46. One of my Grandfathers & my favorite Uncle were SB preachers

and taught me to question what I read, what I was told, what people thought I "should" be or do, all before I was 9. They were both dead by my 14 birthday, but I know they were at my back when I finally had enough & walked away from church at 19.
Fast forward to 5 years ago, a SB Sunday school teacher calls my 10 year old daughter The Antichrist in my parent's church in AL while she was there for summer vacation. Her great sin was asking questions this sanctimonious twit couldn't answer about the lesson.
Never been so proud of my girl in her life.

If the SBC never rears its wretched head again it will be too soon for us.

[madfloridian]

47. That's terrible they said that to your daughter.

My parents were always active but always open-minded. They would be stunned to see the changes the last decade.

[DKRC]

48. Terrible for them maybe

because she will never succumb to their hateful blatherings after they showed her who they are at heart. It only took 4 summers of vacation bible school to turn my kid off of church for the rest of her life.

(My daughter's only concern when she told me what happened was I'd turn the truck around & go back to 'Bama to strangle the self-righteous wench with her own tacky pantyhose.)

[jazzjunkysue]

78. Why are you letting these people anywhere near your daughter?

:scared:

[DKRC]

83. Visiting with my family in AL

As for letting her attend my parents SB church when she did visit, it was good for her. No amount of my telling her how they are could have come close to her experiencing it for herself. They showed her who they are and she walked away.

[jazzjunkysue]

84. Oh-Sorry. I had now way of knowing it was just one day. You're right:

you have to experience it yourself, to understand the part of the family that lives under these nasty delusions.

I dragged my daughter (jewish) to my friend's old school catholic church for a baby naming. The priest babbled incoherantly for over a hour, non=stop. We were trapped.

Her words as we finally crossed the threshold into the street: "I'm glad we're not catholic."

[get the red out]

67. Absolutely correct

They are harming their own people and the country by brain washing people to vote for the rich instead of themselves. Shameful. And their hate can't hold up, people are changing and moving away from that.

[Vidar]

72. Well said.

[BlooInBloo]

10. Let them rot.

[Liberal_in_LA]

25. yep

[Joanne98]

13. Fighting Wall Street like they were suppose to do might help.

[create.peace]

15. boo-effing-hoo nt

[BolivarianHero]

16. Surprised?

The sole reason for the SBC's founding was the defense of African-American slavery.

[mitchum]

18. A little fact that they like to gloss over

Good riddance to them

[Manifestor_of_Light]

21. Yep, that's why the black Baptists have a separate organization.

The National Baptists are what the Missionary Baptists belong to.

I used to go to a Missionary Baptist church.

[BolivarianHero]

74. Heh

There are many other denominations. The largest aside from the SBC is the American Baptist Convention, the body from which the SBC had separated in the 1830s over the issue of funding the missionary work of slave-owners and pro-slavery congregations. I don't know why politically liberal Southern Baptists don't just change churches to escape this legacy of hate.

[mitchum]

17. Drown them in their magic swimming pool...and good riddance

[HillWilliam]

52. I had an argument with a Babdiss preacher a long time ago

who wouldn't accept my original baptism. He said nothing less than a total immersion would do. I countered that if the amount of water made any difference, nothing less than the Pacific Ocean would do. Needless to say, I didn't attend. I can go out to the woods in my back yard these days to commune with Spirit and that's church enough.

[old mark]

19. Great news! I hope they all shrivel up dry out and blow away.

I just hope it's soon enough that I live to see it all go.

mark

[RagAss]

20. Fuck'em !

[Manifestor_of_Light]

22. This is why the UUs don't have splits.

They accept everybody and have no creedal test.

[madfloridian]

27. Pastor who prayed for Obama's death is a leader in the Southern Baptist convention.

Somehow I missed the fact that this guy was one of the top leaders in the Southern Baptist Church. I saw this at Huffington Post today.

A Little Talk with the Man who prayed For Obama's Death

Even by the nut case standard of the assorted pack of neo-Nazi unreconstructed Klan members, Aryan Nation haters, and the legion of loose screw religious cranks and loonies, the Reverend Wiley S. Drake's public prayer for the death of President Obama stretched far past the outer limit of credulity. The unrepentant Drake did not back away from the prayer when asked about it by Alan Colmes on Fox News Radio on June 2. He pleaded that he didn't understand why people were upset with his comments.

Drake is not just a garden variety religious crank. In 2006, he reigned as the second vice president of the nearly 20 million strong Southern Baptist Convention. The group is by far the nation's biggest evangelical denomination. He pastors a bonafide church, the First Southern Baptist Church in the middle-class bedroom city of Buena Park, California. Drake has his own popular radio show on the Crusade Radio Network. In April, Southern Baptist Convention spokesperson Richard Land even had kind words for Obama for his family values emphasis.

Convention officials, though, were far less forthright about Wiley's death prayer death for Obama. It issued a perfunctory statement saying that his views were his and his alone. It did not vigorously denounce those views, especially his Obama death prayer.

The church officials did not even denounce his statement. This was a leader near the top of the SBC.

This writer, however, couldn't let Drake's purported death prayer on Obama lightly pass. So I had a little talk with him mostly to give him another chance to back off his prayer.
Here's an excerpt from the June 19 talk with Drake:

"Did you actually pray for President Obama's death?"
"No, I was merely citing an imprecatory prayer which in scripture is a prayer mandated by God to smite down the enemies....those that do evil."

"So you're saying that you did not actually call for Obama's death?"
"I was asked in an interview about the murder of Kansas doctor George Tiller and I said in an imprecatory prayer that Tiller who was responsible for the murder of thousands of children was given a chance at salvation and that didn't happen so he was condemned in prayer to die. I had no regrets about his death. I was then asked if the imprecatory prayer for the death of evil doers could even extend to the president. I said yes. I was merely citing a prayer."

"Do you stand by that?"
"Unfortunately in the interview I said Obama. I'm not wanting (sic) the president dead. The prayer for his death is not my prayer but comes from God."

[Ex Lurker]

40. sort of

he is a leader, but "leaders" in the SBC have very little actual authority. The churches are for the most part autonomous. Paradoxically, this allows the wingnuts to take over such positions. Because they're largely irrelevant, most people don't pay much attention to who's running for these offices.

[Cleita]

28. I guess there aren't enough psychos for them to cultivate so they may

have to moderate their crazy stands on wedge issues.

[UrbScotty]

29. You don't say!

[bmbmd]

30. Luke Chapter 4.

Jesus Rejected at Nazareth

14 Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. 15 He taught in their synagogues, and everyone praised him.

16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. 17 The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”
20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21 and he began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

22 All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. “Isn’t this Joseph’s son?” they asked.

23 Jesus said to them, “Surely you will quote this proverb to me: ‘Physician, heal yourself! Do here in your hometown what we have heard that you did in Capernaum.’”

24 “I tell you the truth,” he continued, “no prophet is accepted in his hometown. 25 I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah’s time, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and there was a severe famine throughout the land. 26 Yet Elijah was not sent to any of them, but to a widow in Zarephath in the region of Sidon. 27 And there were many in Israel with leprosyf in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansed—only Naaman the Syrian.”

28 All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this. 29 They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him down the cliff. 30 But he walked right through the crowd and went on his way.

(When Jesus Himself attended church, the churchmembers were "furious" with what He had to say, and sought to throw him off a cliff. He walked out of the church and continued on His way. I have seen no reason to believe that He ever came back. The church is the last place I would look for Christ Jesus.)

[madfloridian]

31. Wanting to throw Jesus off a cliff. One of those "inconvenient" parts of the bible.

Those who quote verbatim like to ignore many parts of the good book.

He would be weeping today at some of the sermons of hate and ugliness being preached from SBC pulpits.

[WinstonSmith4740]

32. One of my favorite Woody Allen lines...

In the movie Hannah and Her Sisters, Max Von Sydow plays a brooding artist. He has just spent many hours in front of the TV, and is expounding on how horrible it is. "And the worst are the preachers...if Jesus ever did come back and see what was going on in his name, he'd never stop throwing up."

[jmondine]

33. I think that title is about 150 years too late

[saltpoint]

34. For way too long there has been too much of a punitive energy

running through this denomination.

Jimmy Carter finally walked out of these folks, didn't he?

[madfloridian]

43. Punitive is a great choice of words.

I was raised on hell-fire and damnation. :hi:

[saltpoint]

49. Hi, madfloridian. Well, if you were raised that way, you must have

escaped one night under a full moon and dashed to freedom.

Welcome! And please stay one of the good guys.


:thumbsup: :hi:

[madfloridian]

60. Well I was one of the lucky ones.

I got out unscathed except for the contempt of the more war hungry members. I was lucky growing up as we had very enlightened parents.

:hi:

[Engineer4Obama]

36. The southern baptist church didn't become this way by accident

There was a purge of the theological left from their clergy a few decades back. And now the denomination is reaping what it sowed.

[madfloridian]

37. Yes, and much of that purge started in Central Florida.

There was nothing accidental about it, you are right. One of the ones I mentioned in the OP was one of the instigators. Mohler does not believe in birth control or planned parenthood. He espouses the Quiverfull movement's philosphy.

The sad part is that most in the church did not see it coming, and Iraq was a wake up moment.

[Quantess]

38. I hope they never compromise their "values".

I hope they steadfast cling to their beliefs and go the way of the dinosaurs.

[Stinky The Clown]

41. I hope they lose the ability to reproduce.

[SoCalDem]

42. Perhaps they should start preaching about what they are FOR

and spend less time telling people what they should be AGAINST.

Maybe a whole new generation of people have devcided they are tired of being hateful to people they don;t even know :)

[madfloridian]

44. You are exactly right.

Being hateful to people they don't even know. :(

They have done too much of that.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. Please Don't Throw Out The Baby With The Bathwater

Not all Christians are intolerant. I am a non denominational Christian and in the last several months I have attended a Catholic Church, a non demominational Christian Church (Northland Church- The pastor, Joel Hunter is on Barack Obama's spiritual board), a predominately African American church, a United Church Of Christ, a (progressive) Seventh Day Adventist Church, and a Baptist Church which is the church where I was baptized but I am no longer a fundamentalist but I am still a Christian. To me the Bible is a living document which must be interpeted in light of the times it was written but still has applications today.

Dr. King, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Al Gore, and Barack Obama are all Christians and they seem to be wise and compassionate men. As Jesus said " A new commandment I give unto you: that ye love one another, as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."


I am out the door to go to a UCC church near me. There are gay couples, African American families, white families, singles, children...


To me Christ is love...

P.S. Anybody who has read my writings here can see I have been mean at times. That was my darker self and hope I am forgiven and it doesn't hurt my witness...

Love

DSB

[Bluenorthwest]

54. Joel Hunter is a Republican

He is very anti-choice, a homophobe who equates my house hold to people who have sex with animals. He is the author of books about his openly stated Conservatism.
The UCC is a far, far better choice if one feels the need for that sort of thing at all.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

58. If He Believes That, That's Messed Up

He shouldn't be on Obama's spiritual counsel.

And I don't think being a Christian and being gay are mutually exclusive. We are all created in God's image and he loves all of us...

[ima_sinnic]

51. hateful morons going extinct? delightful news!

keep spewing your ignorant, small-minded, brain-dead, superstitious nonsense, jackasses, as the world passes you by.

[get the red out]

53. Declare all Baptist marriages illegal

The intrinsic abuse encouraged by Baptist marriage is a threat to marriage as a whole in this country and provides a very dangerous environment for children to be brought up in. Children are at risk for being taught hate and having to witness the abuse of their mothers on a daily basis. Female children would have zero self-esteem coming from such a home and the boys would grow up to be abusers just like their Baptist fathers.

End all Baptist marriages!!!!!!!! For the good of this country and marriage everywhere!

Seriously, this denomination has gone mad, my Grandfather was a Baptist Deacon in eastern Kentucky and this in no way describes his marriage to my Grandmother. There was no way he could have pushed this "submission" crap on her, she wouldn't have put up with it at all. They raised 7 children in the 30s and 40s and I doubt he ever raised his voice to her. One of the gentlest men I ever knew in my life. This would make him ill. The hard-liners have destroyed their Church and they are reaping what they have sown. I hope the Baptist Church fades away, they have decided to not be useful to our society and to exist only for a political purpose. Time for them to go.

[Peacetrain]

55. The thing that is so sad about the SB's is they were one of the first to have female clergy

then the Promisekeepers and that group broke out. Making the SB's a smaller politicized sect.

[saltpoint]

56. Sometimes in history, religions die out.

Not all of them, but some of them, and many of the ones which survive are forced to modify, sometimes significantly.

The Southern Baptists are becoming a niche group. They often come across as a pack of snarling, whip-snapping hypermoralists.

May they suffer all the pains and bewilderments attendant to realizing that they are increasingly obsolete, insofar as they were ever pertinent to begin with.

Bill Moyers is a Baptist. It's too bad more Baptists in the U.S. didn't use his model of Christianity.

[Ikonoklast]

57. I went with a friend's family to a SB service once.

I am a nominal non-practicing Catholic.

I never knew I was praying to The Whore Of Babylon.

It had a hard time to keep from laughing out loud as the service was all about denigrating every other religion on Earth as frauds perpetrated by The Devil, and even the schismatic Baptists as heathens and apostates.

It was a sad experience.

[Ilsa]

59. Romance is selfish for wives? I bet frequent

Sex for their husbands, without romance, is approved, though. Since when do husbands speak for God?

[get the red out]

65. Yea, I didn't get that

Why is "Romance" bad for husbands? If the wife enjoys it, does the devil appear at the foot of the bed or something?

[madfloridian]

61. More about Mohler and the SBC theological seminary.

Here is the seminary in Louisville, KY.

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary

Their page describes Mohler, who opposes birth control, abortion, and gays...as a "leading intellectual" of our times.

Dr. R. Albert Mohler, Jr., serves as the ninth president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and has been recognized by such influential publications as Time and Christianity Today as a leader among American evangelicals. In fact, Time.com called him the “reigning intellectual of the evangelical movement in the U.S.”

Here is more about the young minds they are training to go out and preach their narrow gospel to others.

Southern Seminary's influence holds strong

On a mild March night, more than 900 teenagers shook the red-brick chapel at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, singing, cheering and clapping to rock and hip-hop worship music. The teens, from Kentucky and several surrounding states, had descended on Southern for a weekend seminar called "Give Me An Answer," where seminary professors warned them that American cultural trends posed challenges to orthodox Christian beliefs.

"Do you want us to water down our content this weekend, or do you want a challenge?" asked seminary professor Dan DeWitt.

"A challenge!" the teens roared.

More:

It reports having 2,710 full- and part-time graduate-level students, including 1,661 in the master of divinity degree program, the most in North America. Those numbers reflect the school's rising priority on training pastors, and its de-emphasis on counselors, musicians or other vocations. The seminary's students and recent graduates spread its conservative influence in pulpits throughout Kentucky, Indiana and beyond.

So does its ubiquitous president, Albert Mohler, commenting regularly in national media on cultural trends. And so do its professors, influential in national theological societies and in think tanks such as the campus-based Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, which promotes male authority in families and churches.

Southern's "sound doctrine" and well-known professors drew Brian Hubert of Illinois, who received his master of divinity degree in May: "It's just a great environment."

Mohler — who oversaw Southern's tumultuous turn to the right in the 1990s that some viewed as a fundamentalist power grab and others as a return to its conservative roots — sees Southern today as "counter-cultural from top to bottom."

They will fight loudly and long for what they believe. They have gained important roles in this administration.

Our party has either not realized they are planning on a theocracy, or they are just too wimpy to fight back.

Or worse, it is okay with them.

[eppur_se_muova]

62. Molly Ivins had it right -- "the trouble with our local Baptists ..."

"is that they we do not hold them under long enough."

[madfloridian]

63. LOL

Miss Molly so much.

[jazzjunkysue]

77. Thanks! Never heard that one! Lol! We miss you, Molly!

There'll never be another....

[Manifestor_of_Light]

87. Holding baptists under water long enough...

is a quote from W.C. Brann, who had a newspaper in Wacko, Texas, called The Iconoclast.

They did not like him in Wacko, the Vatican City of the Babtists.

He was plugged dead on the main street in 1900 by one of his enemies, although he managed to fire off a shot and kill his murderer.

A real character.

[shadowknows69]

64. Two words.

Suck it.

[SidDithers]

69. I think I'll go home tonight and mention to my wife that...

her duties should include "rising early to feed the family" and "being available anytime to satisfy a husband's desires".

You'll understand if I'm not physically able to post tomorrow.

Sid

[madfloridian]

85. LOL

I will just bet she would love to hear that. :evilgrin:

[scheming daemons]

73. Fundamentalist religions, that fail to change with society, are ALWAYS doomed to failure

...ultimately.

[jazzjunkysue]

76. Jesus will be relieved to learn that they're hiring new P.R. people to refine his message.

Hanging up there for a week on that post, apparently, wasn't enough.

[fishwax]

80. good to hear

:)

[BolivarianHero]

82. If Rick Warren is a misogynist twirp..

Then as much as I dislike Hillary the Warmonger, I would encourage every woman to vote for her in the primary if it could be done again.

[Beartracks]

86. Could it be... could it be...

"...annual fights over hot-button theological or social issues aren't moving the next generation of Baptists."

Could it be... could it be... that THAT kind of negative, judgmental environment is simply not what people are looking for in a church home?