So what do you think of Sarkozy's opinion on Islamic Burqa's?

[trumad]

I must say I have mixed feelings about his opinion--- I believe in freedom of religion and if Islamic women want to where a burqa---then so be it.... On the other hand--- I think it's primitive as hell.

Thoughts

PARIS (AP) — President Nicolas Sarkozy declared Monday that the Islamic burqa is not welcome in France, branding the face-covering, body-length gown as a symbol of subservience that suppresses women's identities and turns them into "prisoners behind a screen."

But there was a mixed message in the tough words: an admission that the country's long-held principle of ethnic assimilation — which insists that newcomers shed their traditions and adapt to French culture — is failing because it doesn't give immigrants and their French-born children a fair chance.

In a high-profile speech to lawmakers in the historic chateau at Versailles, Sarkozy said the head-to-toe Muslim body coverings were in disaccord with French values — some of the strongest language against burqas from a European leader at a time when some Western officials have been seeking to ease tensions with the Muslim world.

"In our country, we cannot accept that women be prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity," Sarkozy said to extended applause of the lawmakers gathered where French kings once held court.

"The burqa is not a religious sign, it's a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement — I want to say it solemnly," he said. "It will not be welcome on the territory of the French Republic."
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gTDeMBzBjdcCOuhzymBE1QDK9eIQD98VVGT83

[BlooInBloo]

1. I think it's an obvious We Hate Muslims thing, marketed as a women's rights thing, for the credulous

[bertman]

19. You don't have to hate muslims to hate the degradation of women by Islam or any other

religious group.

[DesertFlower]

2. i agree. it's primitive,

but women should have the right to wear them. on the other hand, they shouldn't be forced to.

[lamp_shade]

3. I agree with him.

[timeforpeace]

4. Not PC, that's for sure.

[Lost-in-FL]

5. His opinion won't stop women from using them.

Just the same way religious zealots insist on having the 10 commandments plastered on government buildings out of purely religious arrogance.

[krabigirl]

6. I think it's wonderful how the French try to keep religion private.

Unlike here where there's constant debates about prayer in schools, so much religion in politics, etc. I agree with Sarkozy -- the burka is a symbol of female oppression. I don't have as many issues with the hijab, but I do with the burka.

[Happyhippychick]

7. It's a symbol of oppression. It might not be PC but I agree with him.

[Bucky]

10. My opinion is the same, but do you want a government telling people how they can dress?

It's one thing to argue against a medieval, dehumanizing form of dress. It's entirely different for the government to use its police powers to tell people which religious practices are permissible and which are not. What happens if the French next decide that Sikh boys are being oppressed because their parents refuse to let them cut their hair and force them to wear turbans? And how does a burqa oppress a woman in a way that a nun's habit does not?

This isn't about protecting women from oppression; this is about cultural comfort levels with how other communities observe God.

[katandmoon]

14. I've never seen a nun's habit that COVERS HER FACE

[Happyhippychick]

17. If a religion sanctions the complete covering up of women because they are women then yes I want

the government to use it's police powers to tell them that it's inhumane and oppressive.

But I do see your point and if it was any other circumstance other than the obvious oppression of women I would absolutely agree with you. :)

[havocmom]

21. Don't most governments put limits on dress?

I'm of two minds on the burqa. If women want to wear it as a religious expression, that should have weight, but.... I can see security problems with going into a bank or public buildings with one's face masked.

Since most governments DO put limits on what is worn in public, one could see that this is not really unheard of action. Most governments won't let people who express their faith while naked go about on the sidewalk in their birthday suits.

If the burqa is allowed, with the way it undermines basic idnetification/security measures in public places, sky-clad should be allowed too. It would be much easier to identify sky-clad bank robbers than robbers who donned burqas to hide from cameras.*

IMHO.

* please note I said 'bank robbers', not muslims In no way am I suggesting people who wear burqas are criminals. I am suggesting the burqa could be exploited by criminals of any religious persuasion to subvert detection and identification, and THAT would be a concern to the state.

[Happyhippychick]

23. i have not heard of a religion that forces men to hide from society because only their wife has a

Right to see his face. I think burqas should be discouraged and I wouldn't mind if they were illegal. It's a far cry from modesty, its cruelty.

I don't think it has a thing to do with religious freedom, I think that's what people say when they are more afraid of government suppression than male suppression. I am more concerned with the latter.

I liked your reply, its an interesting discussion.

[joeybee12]

8. Sarkozy is a dick, so I question his motives and sincerity. n/t

[Bucky]

9. Europeans in general are less respectful of religiously devout non-Christians

Germany went after Tom Cruise for being a Scientologist. Both French and British men officials have bragged about making Muslim women take off their head scarves before meeting with them because it made the men feel uncomfortable. It's not just Europeans, though. I've read DUers justify discriminating against people of faith based on how dumb they think religions are.

[armyowalgreens]

11. Every modern religion is a patrioarchy.

I agree with Sarkozy's comments. I don't know if he's sincere, but what he said is correct.

[Gwendolyn]

12. Free the face, free the mind, free the spirit.

People are so inured to our own fundie culture, it's difficult to perceive of another country that finds our way of thinking abhorrent. That would be France, among others. They're a secular country, proud of it, and after suffering for centuries under the oppression of the church, they said no more. That's basically where they're coming from and they have scads and oodles of support, from muslims and christians, feminists alike. It'll help end the practice among fundies who observe the custom of sending for uneducated, child-women brides from other countries, throwing them into a faceless sacks and keeping them apart from the society they've entered into.

Why did/do Gitmo torturers place black sacks over the heads of their victims? Because it's dehumanizing. Same thing applies. And even if people enjoy their prison, it's disturbing for others to look at. At the very least, it's an unfair assault on others who cannot judge what or who is behind the mask but are forced to come into contact with them nonetheless. Good for them. I'm sure French women will come up with some reasonable facsimile of a black sack slave costume that shows the face.

[Malikshah]

13. My view will be unpopular to some, but the req't to wear a burqa is, in my mind,

a complete and total misinterpretation of Islamic scripture. If folks wish to go off the deep end that is there own salvation. Enabling an oppressive patriarchy is not what God had in mind though.



With regard to Sarkozy-- he has no say in the matter and should keep his own chauvinistic derriere out of it

[armyowalgreens]

15. But are you willing to admit that Islam and Christianity are patriarchal?

Because I honestly don't think it matters at this point what God wanted.

[Malikshah]

22. Both are..hell, the five major belief systems in the world are...

My points were: Burqas are an extreme, dare I say it, "innovation" of Islamic scripture

AND

Sarkozy has no role in the issue--he's a part of the patriarchal system himself and shut his chauvinist mouth.

[Nikia]

16. French values are different than American values

In the US, our president probably wouldn't say anything like that becaue we value freedom of religion in the US and ideologically are more tolerant of people living different types of lives. Yes, I know that there are racists and xenophobes, but ideologically we believe in the first amendment. Ideologically, France believes that anyone can become "French" if they are willing to give up their former ethnicity and become "French". He is saying that the burqa is something that must be given up if one wants to be "French"
I think in the US that some female Muslims may feel pressured to wear the burqa and to them it is a sign of subservience. For those who are free to make a truly free choice though, some choose to wear it as a sign of their religion and it may be empowering to them.

[solstice]

18. Nuns don't wear habits in order to protect men from their own urges,

the way Muslim women wear burqas.

I have huge problems with just about everything to do with the Catholic church - which is a major oppressor of women in its own right - but I just do not find the two comparable.

Nuns can LEAVE the church at any time.

I think Sarkozy is exactly right, and I am a feminist (one who went to Catholic school for 12 years).

[Canadiana]

20. I agree, and find this debate amongst liberals here to be misguided...

What wins - feminism or "freedom of regligion?"
Feminism does. You can't look at every action done by the muslim community (or a small part of it) as excercising "freedom of religion". We have to have some moral and ethical standard that we hold all people to, and it has become an ethical standard that women do not need to cover all parts of their bodies and be inside a symbolic and literal prison.
Just as it is not acceptable for a muslim man to kill a family member for 'dishonoring' them in some way, which happens. You cannot call that 'freedom of religion'. It's just wrong. And calling it anything else is simply moral relativism, and does not hold up in argument.