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CAPITALISM SUCKS- Reviving Socialism From Below

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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 07:24 PM
Original message
CAPITALISM SUCKS- Reviving Socialism From Below
Reviving socialism from below

Capitalism’s biggest crisis since the 1930s raises the question of what can replace it.



A SPECTER is haunting capitalism. As the world economy plunges into its worst crisis since the Great Depression, political discourse in the United States has been dominated by a discussion of socialism. John McCain accused Barack Obama of supporting socialist policies during last year’s presidential election campaign. Since then scores of right-wing pundits and talk show hosts have been screaming that the new administration, with its stimulus bill, bank bailout plan, and unprecedented budget deficits is turning America into either a European socialist state or a Leninist dictatorship.

While Obama claims, correctly, that his big spending plans are intended not to bury capitalism but to save it, a February cover article in Newsweek declared “We are all socialists now” (although in a companion article—written before the scandal of $165 million in government-funded bonuses for AIG executives who had wrecked the company—it also reassured its readers that there will not be a revolution in the U.S., because Americans don’t hate the rich). Newsweek pointed out that the crisis had already forced the Bush administration to spend hundreds of billions of dollars to bail out the banking and mortgage industries, and that it had earlier passed “the largest expansion of the welfare state in 30 years,” in the form of a prescription drug benefit for Medicare recipients.

But as Frederick Engels argued back in the 1870s, even state ownership of particular industries is not the same as socialism and is, in fact, quite compatible with support for capitalism. Commenting on events in Germany at the time, Engels noted,

Since Bismarck went in for state-ownership of industrial establishments, a kind of spurious socialism has arisen, degenerating, now and again, into something of flunkeyism, that without more ado declares all state ownership, even of the Bismarckian sort, to be socialistic. Certainly, if the taking over by the state of the tobacco industry is socialistic, then Napoleon and Metternich must be numbered among the founders of socialism.

If socialism means more than state ownership or state intervention, then how should it be understood? In the past, most socialists defined their ideology by pointing to concrete models, whether Stalin’s Russia, Mao’s China, or the expanding social democracies of Western Europe. But the Stalinist command economies collapsed, Mao’s China was replaced by a system of market exploitation, and Europe’s social democrats—including Britain’s Labor Party and France’s Socialist Party—long ago transformed themselves from defenders of the welfare state to advocates of privatization, deregulation, and other neoliberal policies.



http://www.isreview.org/issues/65/gasper-socialism.shtml
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. First problem, we DO NOT live in a capitalist country
after that... socialism is not a religion either.

Oh well... let reach for the :popcorn:

But if you truly want to change this, you need to realize... we live in a CORPORATIST economy. In fact, some of Adam Smith's suggestions in the Wealth of Nations should be used right about now...

Read the Wealth when you have time.
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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Wrong
The United States is functioning as per the standard operating principles of capitalism.

Sorry, no such thing as kinder-gentler shark attacks.

Go ahead and try to regulate the barracuda. How exactly does that work again? The system ain't broke.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. No, it is functioning like a CORPORATIST state, as envisioned by Mussolini
read the Wealth of Nations, seriously.

The hand is mentioned ONCE in the whole fucking book, but taking down monopolies is mentioned a LOT. Just as keeping the SMALL producer, LOCAL producer, in business.

As I said, most people don't even know what Adam Smith, of for that matter Marx and Engels, wrote.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. +1. We need less giant corporations and more co-ops and small businesses.
Oh course the Orthodox Marxist upon reading that will scream "petit bourgeois nonsense". :eyes:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Perhaps I should go for my copy of both Das Kapital and The Wealth
and quote appropriate sections.

I am laughing here, for another reason.

This happens every time, doesn't it?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Yes, it does.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #5
29. adam smith is not the alpha & omega of capitalism. capitalism is rule by capital, it ends in mono-
poly, & maybe you missed the part where smith speculates on the no-profit world at the end of the evolution - or devolution - of the process.
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Yes it is. Despite how some writer/theorist wants to define it. n/t
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I think Adam Smith would argue with you, starting with
the amount of monopolies we have at the moment.
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Yes, predatory corporatism rules the USA right now.
Edited on Tue Jun-23-09 08:25 PM by ananda
And it's greedy bloodsucking mouth does
not care who it harms or kills.
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ProgressiveSuperhawk Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
2. Socialism is the only way to save American economy
a more wide-spread socialism is the only way to save the American econmy, and to save the people at the bottom of the income range bracket

Socialism works when it comes to roads, we have well paved roads coast to coast. Socialism works for our publicly-financed fire departments, the average response to a house fire is about 5 or 6 minutes. We need to take those lessons and spread them to the rest of society. We have seen from Enron, that capitalism does not work. Look at the gas prices, the corporations just keep jacking up the prices to rip off consumers. Not until we demand that the government take over the gas distribution system will we see real change in America and gas prices where families can afford to fill up their car so they can get to work and to the foodstore.

Capitalism has been tried and it failed us.
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. utter rubbish
capitalism works. it has made us, and many other nations incredibly successful and raised the average standard of living.

it has fostered innovation, wealth creation, etc.

capitalism ROOLS!
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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Yikes
Where have I heard that before? Hmmm.
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. unfortunately you haven't heard it enough
so i'll say it again.

yay! capitalism!

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. You too need to read the Wealth of Nations
and try to connect some dots as to how the current system is NOT capitalism

By the way, that raising of the standard of living came from this other thing called the Industrial Revolution, ever heard of it?

But in the modern day we do not live in a Capitalist system. In fact, the last modification to the system that incorporated a few elements of Socialism was Keynes. It's height was the 1950s mixed economy, as in it had the best of both systems... but that has been dismantled in order to impose a fascist economic, monopolistic system.

And I don't mean thugs in the streets, I mean an actual definition based in the current economy of the US and a standard textbook definition given by Mussolini.
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armyowalgreens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #16
26.  Marx said that capitalism has accomplished feats greater
than the pyramids of egypt. He spent quite a good amount of space in The Communist Manifesto talking about the great accomplishments of capitalism.

But what he went on to say was that Capitalism is naturally self-destructive. It allows wealth to pool at the top. The middle and lower class (ie the true working class) lose their power and money in the process.


No one is saying that Capitalism hasn't accomplished a lot. What we are saying is that it's time for a system that better accommodates the working class. Because after all, the only reason why are able to manufacture those technological innovations of capitalism is because of the working class.
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
4. Sums things up nicely:
The bottom line is that Pollin’s reforms are so cautious that they fail to make any serious challenge to the status quo. Instead, they are little more than a recipe for propping up capitalism at vast public expense, which is precisely why they are already the preferred policies of the Obama administration. The private banks have already gobbled up hundreds of billions of dollars of public money and will likely require hundreds of billions more. Meanwhile, as John Bellamy Foster and others have argued, the idea of a market-based solution to the environmental crisis is a fantasy. Pollin’s proposals are “realistic” only if our goal is to preserve the existing system for as long as possible, not if we hope to create a movement to replace it.


Capitalism didn't fail the people at the top, and so we are being asked to give til it hurts and then give some more- it always amuses me that we are supposed to see greed as good until something goes wrong, and then we are supposed to sacrifice to get things back to 'normal.'
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
12. When capitalism fails...

does the state take over industry or do the industrialists (who, in this era, would be the globalists) act to take control of the state? There would be a fine line between socialism and fascism. One could always join the military where you would be taken care of by the state, and fight for the industrialists.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. It already failed, you need to read the Wealth of Nations too
we are living in a corporatist state already where there is quite a bit of synergy between the state and the corporations. Where have I read that definition? Oh yes Mussulini.

People need to realize this, regardless of all the propaganda to the contrary this country and quite a bit of the OECD economies stopped functioning by classic Money Theories and production theories as espoused by Adam SMith a while ago.

Just because it is not that obvious, and the propaganda is thick to the contrary does not change this fact. We live in a corporatist state... what is the name used by its original designer? Oh yes, Fascism.

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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. It has "failed" within the US by design...

after defeating fascism in Germany, the CIA then proceeded to promote key fascists into our own intelligence framework. Would you deny this?

This resulted in the overthrow of a democratically elected leader in Iran, all in the name of anti-communism, back in 1953. The anti-communist initiative was so widely accepted that we proceeded to fund the Muslim Brotherhood in the '80s, fighting the Soviet Union, and resulting in al-Qaeda and the rise of Osama bin Ladin.

After the failure of wars against Iraq, in order to secure their oil resources, we continue to promote our wars of aggression in Aghanistan and Pakistan, all in the name of O.I.L.

Most if not all of US industry is currently dependent on this fossil fuel.

All of this fascism has been necessary because of the need for Oil to run our economy. There is an alternative and it is spelled GREEN.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. My point is that we need to call a dog that barks a dog
and not a cat.

We keep calling this dog a cat since the media and other propaganda means keep telling us it is so.

Language and the proper use of language is critical.

By the way that imposition actually started with Reagan and not in the 1950s, Keynes was the last successful revision and modernization of capitalism that led to the very successful mixed economy of the 1950s and 60s The goal of Reagan and others was to destroy that and keep calling it free market and ahem capitalism.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. "By the way that imposition actually started with Reagan"

I would totally disagree with this. Imposition started before WWII, when certain elements within the US wanted to support fascism and overthrow the likes of FDR. What Reagan did with respect to foreign policy was a good thing, as far as ending the Cold War. The neo-neocons could not win in this instance, because Mutually Assured Destruction was too powerful to contend with. Those who became neocons were actually opposed to Reagan's foreign policy.

What Reagan did domestically is a different story, and ultimately led to the economy we now suffer.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. Were Adam Smith were around today he would be called a lefty-commie-pinko.
The market economy is not the problem, the problem is the incestuous relationship between government and business. Too many on the left, by being so infatuated my economic planning, have played into the corporatists hands.
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armyowalgreens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. That's kind of naive...
to assume that the only reason why we are in this mess is because government was in bed with big business.

Even without corporate fascism, AIG still would have been handling risky loans.

What we need is more regulation and government control. What we need less of is corporate ownership of government. Let's not confuse the two.
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keep_it_real Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
14. Socialism is only good if it SUPPORT the infrastructural of capitalisms
See we ALREADY have a SOCIALIST economy structure that SUPPORT capitalism is called the fire department paid for by socialist tax dollars, we already have public eduction that support the CAPITALIST system; we already have FIRE departments that support the capitalist system WITHIN the SOCIALIST support structure of the HIGHWAY depart that BUILD socialist roads paid for by SOCIALIST taxes of the United States of American people that carry the capitalist merchandise across America.

What about libraries? All the libraries in the United States are socialist instutitions support by socialist tax dollars that support the capitalist interal structure.

The American socialist structure support the internal capitalist structure.

But socialist NEEDS capitalism and and capitalism needs socialism in America. Because Bill Gates if he had a PRIVATE capitalist fire department or police department it still would not work because if a fire started at his neighbors house and Bill Gate's privately owned fire department did not put out his neighbors fire then that fire could very well spread to Bill Gate's property and house. And even if Bill Gates had a private police department to protect him it would have to be as BIG and HUGE as any city police department otherwise the crime it not stopped by Bill Gate's police department would overtake even him.

These are IDEAS that the corporate controlled and the capitalist rich are not going to tell you in their public schools and colleges and universities but think about it and you will see that it is the truth.
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armyowalgreens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
22. Socialism still allows for private industry...
It simply takes vital industry and places it in the hands of the people. Instead of the corporations.

As stated above, the US is not a pure capitalist system. We never have been. But all the problems we have been seeing lately have been because we are steadily working our way towards corporate fascism.

We cannot allow private corporations to control the government and the people. The only way to escape their death grip is to put the power back into the working class.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
25. "The strategic adversary is fascism - the fascism in us all, in our heads and in our everyday.....
"The strategic adversary is fascism - the fascism in us all, in our heads and in our everyday behavior, the fascism that causes us to love power, to desire the very thing that dominates and exploits us." ~ Michele Foucault
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
27. What would the world look like if shelter, food, medical care were human rights?
We don't know.
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 05:59 AM
Response to Original message
28. More sectors should be socialized....but not all...
Edited on Wed Jun-24-09 05:59 AM by and-justice-for-all
100% of any Government philosophy does not work. Several things need to be taken out of the hands of corporations and placed in the hands of the people(socialized).

I am more of a socialist then I thought I was and comes to find out, Socialism is not at all evil or bad. At least, once you learn what it is and what it is not.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
30. k&r
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