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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 04:13 PM
Original message
A view is becoming more prevalent among Democrats that women's rights are expendable...
and those rights can be bargained away to get the religious right on board, that those rights can be bargained away to win and keep winning elections.

The basic assumption behind this kind of thinking would have to be that our party considers women to be incapable of making their own medical decisions. It means that women would be considered subservient to the men in the party.

I am very aware that this is a perfect type of post on which the newly added unrecommend function can be used. So be it. It is important enough to risk it. For days here I have had people arguing with me and saying it would be fine if our health care reform were compromised by stopping abortion from being covered. It could follow logically that the next decision would be to not cover birth control pills...and then other annoying rights might get in the way.

We have been talking a lot about the role of The Family, The Fellowship in our country's politics...and lately in our own party. We can see their agenda of control and power at work now.

When 19 Democrats in the House sign a letter saying they will not vote for health reform that pays for abortion...they are making a medical decision based on religious views.

Nineteen House members sent a letter to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi stating that they will not vote for health care reform legislation “unless it explicitly excludes abortion funding from the scope of any government-defined or subsidized health insurance plan.”

"We believe that a government-defined or subsidized health insurance plan, should not be used to fund abortion.

Furthermore, we want to ensure that the Health Benefits Advisory Committee cannot recommend abortion services be included under covered benefits or as part of a benefits package. Without an explicit exclusion, abortion could be included in a government subsidized health care plan under general health care. The health care reform package produced by Congress will be landmark, and with legislation as important as this, abortion must be addressed clearly in the bill text.


Let me see, our party has compromised away on the Iraq invasion, the bankrupcy bill, the immunity clause in the FISA bill, and our Dem majority even raised the amount for abstinence only training by 28 million dollars in 2007.

We do have the votes, we do have the majority to get a Democratic agenda through easily. We just are not willing as a party to do it. Compromise is easier.

We have an 83 vote margin in the House, and a 10 vote margin in the Senate.

Yes, we do have the votes.

We have an 83 vote margin in the House. We have a 9 vote margin in the Senate. Yet we can not seem to control a single agenda. There is something wrong with that picture.

When Howard Dean became chairman in 2005 he made a powerful statement. He said the reason we lost control to the Republicans was because we forgot why we were there in power.

...""Republicans wandered around in the political wilderness for 40 years before they took back Congress.

"But the reason that we lost control is because we forgot why we were entrusted with that control in the first place," Dean said in his acceptance speech.

The American people cannot afford to wait for 40 more years for us to put Washington back to work for them. It won't take us that long -- not if we stand up for what we believe in, organize at the local level, and recognize that strength does not come from the consultants down. It comes from the grass roots up."


In one of the articles recently mentioned about the Fellowship, a clear view of the subservience of women emerges.

When asked about allegations that the Fellowship, among its young volunteers, fosters a spiritually abusive and cult-like environment, a fellowship-employed evangelist and organizer told me, “the Fellowship is like the early Church. It is misunderstood.

”Recently, reluctance to criticize the Fellowship has begun to break down. An Evangelical leader with a lifelong Fellowship affiliation told me that, while on balance he thinks the Fellowship’s work is positive, he has concerns with the Fellowship’s spiritual elitism, its rejection of the institutional Church, and its lack of an organizational structure that provides accountability for Doug Coe and other Fellowship leaders.

In addition, some Christian leaders are beginning to raise cautious and thoughtful questions about the Fellowship’s attitude toward women. An Evangelical scholar told me of being troubled after a chapel service at the college where she works. Doug Coe’s sister, a Fellowship adherent, had delivered a message promoting a spirituality that the scholar described as being “overly prescriptive of men’s and women’s roles and differences in function.”

Such attitudes toward women often are lived out in the Fellowship with painful consequences. Despite the spoken promise that they are to be considered equal partners in the Fellowship's ministry and honored sisters in the Fellowship family, the women of Potomac Point are treated as servants and are reminded that their role, both in life and in the work of the Fellowship, is one of quiet, strong support for the work of the men. One gets the sense that in the Fellowship’s spiritual geography women are seen as roadblocks on the path to male spiritual enlightenment. One woman told me of her experience dating a man who was part of a Fellowship cell in Southern California. As her boyfriend’s involvement grew, he pushed her to the margins of his life. “In my life,” he told her “the guys from the Fellowship are at the center, and my wife, whoever that will be, will be somewhere off to the side.” In the waning days of the relationship she was approached by the wives of older Fellowship members. “Get out while you still can,” one warned. Another described her life as a Fellowship wife: “I’m always third. The Fellowship comes first in my husband’s life. Then our children. Then me.”

Many of the women with whom I spoke reported being treated, at the same time, as children in need of instruction and as sexual deviants worthy of reproach. Such perceptions are not unfounded. One deeply committed Fellowship member spoke of his marriage apologetically, comparing it to the marriage of the Biblical prophet Hosea, who was directed by God to marry a harlot so that the prophet might learn of the hardships God endures.


That was written by Ben Daniel, a Presbyterian minister and a writer of left-leaning, faith-based social and political commentary.

In the late 80s the think tank called the Democratic Leadership Council, also known as the DLC....started their mission to neutralize the party positions so as to keep us from losing.

Simon Rosenberg, the former field director for the DLC who directs the New Democrat Network, a spin-off political action committee, says, "We're trying to raise money to help them lessen their reliance on traditional interest groups in the Democratic Party. In that way," he adds, "they are ideologically freed, frankly, from taking positions that make it difficult for Democrats to win."


Yes, giving in on women's rights to make medical decisions without the interference of government would most definitely be easier than taking a firm stand. This caving in and giving in to win is coming to the fore now with women's rights.

I am getting some very bad vibes about where we are going with this as a party. Feel free to let the unrecs commence if necessary.


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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. k&r
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. Welcome to the underside of the bus, ladies!
Sincerely,
The Labor Movement.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. How true.
We trusted and had faith that all our hard work would pay off. :shrug:
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
30. Let's see: gays under the bus, women under the bus, labor under the bus...
Even though the members of the Democratic party are moving more to the left and progressive side, the leadership of the party is moving to it's safe, salable center. The corporate paymasters don't do progressive and left. Increasingly it appears the only real change the Dems wanted in DC was changing who was collecting all the corporate lobby bribe money.
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. If the trend continues
there will be enough of us under here for a party ;)
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #36
206. And the other two will move heaven and earth to make sure that doesn't happen.
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #206
265. Would they move to pass a few laws with 70+ % support from voters on *both* sides of the aisle?
Could be a lot easier and more politically rewarding than moving heaven or earth :P
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #265
270. Sometimes I think if 300 million people marched on DC they would only listen
Edited on Mon Jul-13-09 02:07 PM by shadowknows69
If standing up front of the mob were 10 billionaires with checks in their hands.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #270
276. There's limits to how many folks you can get to DC anymore
They start shutting down Amtrak after the first 50,000 reach the Mall.
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #36
277. if the trend continues democrats will be republicans /nt
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Nay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. And maybe we need to throw the Democratic Party under the bus, so
we can make some headway in the future. I'm sick of this shit.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #38
129. Actually, the Democratic Party is long gone . . . and it is corporate rule
hiding behind that label now.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #30
53. Amen...women, gays, and union folks under the bus.
And we have a majority enough that we don't have to act that way.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #30
107. Don't forget teachers
We've been under the bus for quite some time now.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #30
108. Polar bears under the bus
along with the rest of the environment.
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Technowitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
63. The GLBT contingent, too
We welcome to the land of promises broken.

And if you're a lesbian, you get a two-fer from them.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
77. Oh, please.
We are quite familiar with the underside of the bus. Ain't nothin' new.
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
121. True, if you believe the skewed rationale and narrow scope of this post...but.......
...personally I don't believe the premise one bit!
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #121
203. I guess it is safe to assume you're not gay,not a woman, not a member of a union,

and not a polar bear, eh?

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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #203
222. No, it is not safe to assume that! But....
What does being gay or a member or a union have to do with the incorrect notion that "Democrats" consider women's rights expendable with regard to the impending healtcare proposal?

Now, as to your direct question:

My 55 year-old brother is gay and we've seen the difficulties of gay people in American society through the '70s right up to today.
I have been a member of several unions, most notably Local 1199 in NYC and members of my family have been union memmbers for decades - my father was a member of the Pullman Porters union back in the 1930s. Do some research on the impacet and significance of that union.

As to women's rights? No, I'm not a woman but obviously have been influenced by women for 60+ years, and was one of the advocates (and campaigners) for the ERA decades ago. Do you know what the ERA was?

I don't feel that simply because 19 Democratic members of Congress are against federal support of abortion funding that the ENTIRE Democratic Party should be condemned as feeling that women's rights are "expendable". That is a broad mis-charazterization of an entire political party based on a single issue in a multi-issue proposal by a small percentage of the Democrats who will be passing judgement on that proposal.

But you are correct, I am not a polar bear!
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #222
252. I do find it interesting however, that you can so easily dismiss the trend..
True, this is only a statement by 19 Democratic Members of Congress... but, considering that abortion rights (the right to choose one if a woman is so inclined) have long been considered one of the "core" issues of the Democratic Party platform, the fact that we have 19 Democratic members of Congress who are willing to loudly and prominently vote against the party on what is considered a "core value" seems to me to be a disturbing trend.

Seen in the light of all the LGBT issues which are plainly being stepped away from as a result of political calculus with respect to the potential political fallout (ala 1994)... it is easy to suspect that there might be a correlation (i.e. if stepping away from LGBT issues can net positive political capital, perhaps likewise stepping away from Women's issues can net even more political capital).

You may be right, that this is just a "coincidence"... but the casual ease with which you dismiss the possibilities is something that I find disturbing.

You may have faith that the party means well, but what, praytell, do you base that faith upon?... because whenever I look at the history of the Democratic Party, it is a history of folding under pressure... and as a result, what looks like preliminary signs of a folding makes me nervous. Do tell though, on what issues has the Democratic Party held firm in the last 30 years?...
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #252
300. Nineteen members (less than one in 12) are a "trend"?
Sorry, I don't buy that. I'd say that 11 out of 12 Democratic members of Congress are an overWHELMING trend!

Abortion rights are one thing, this aspect of the (still unfinalized) healthcare proposal is yet another. Even if the bill evolves into not including abortion payments into the program (which is highly doubtful - 93% of Democrats is still a HUGE majority), you folks are projecting this almost to the level of reversing Roe vs. Wade! Aborton rights, which are not under threat in this (again, still unfinalized) proposal will STILL retain the rights of a woman to have an abortion.

How LGBT comes into this I really don't understand, it's just a smokescreen and usual buzzwords to try to accuse me of not being in favor of LGBT rights as well. Try as I might, I can't come up with a single instance of a member of the LGBT community being deprived of an abortion for any reason (just THINK about what you're including here - it's LUDICROUS!)

Finally, if you're take on the Democratic Party is a "history of folding under pressure", perhaps you're in the wrong party? I can't even begin to list all of the issues tha the Democratic Party has held firm over the last 30 years, but they are countless.
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #222
294. Playin' by the book, eh?
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #294
301. Here we go.....
....can't come up with any material fault with my opinions, so you resort to the republican/Rovian namecalling and insults?

HAH! Sorry, I've already wasted too many keystrokes responding to this senseless response to my post.
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solstice Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
304. Funny how the underside of the bus looks the same whether Obama or Bush is in the White House.
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #304
308. Well, no, most of the flattened had the good sense to stay AWAY from the Bush bus.
:rofl:
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. been having fun unrec'ing most threads . . .but
had to rec yours

sure would like to see a spine somewhere in our party
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. Well, the unrecs have started. I guess we now have a spitting contest
over women's rights.

Surprised to see someone write that they were having fun unrec..ing. I would not want to admit it.

:evilgrin:

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Maybe people don't like manipulation
and finally have a chance to call your bullshit too.

You are so smart and able to write such compelling arguments. Why do you insist on fucking it all up by using manipulative hyperbole like women being thrown under the bus by Democrats when you know good and well it's just a handful of nutballs, mostly southern. Why don't you fix your state before you start ranting at the rest of the Democrats in the country who aren't even the problem.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. I don't like it being said I write "bullshit". That's just plain ugly.
"and finally have a chance to call your bullshit too."

You are sounding more anti-choice all the time.


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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Still no answers. Just manipulative accusations
I didn't say you write bullshit. I said your manipulation is bullshit. And I have never sounded anti-choice a day in my life. More bullshit manipulation by you. Did you do this to your students too?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. You are getting personal. I am backing off now.
I posted my thoughts, and I did it fairly. Good by for now.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. lol, YOU got personal. Medicaid. Abortion. An answer yet? n/t
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #19
69. You could've said all that WITHOUT unrec'ing
Why isn't it enough to "Use Your Words"?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #19
132. That's nonsense . . . this is a serious post . . . with obvious truths we are all aware of .. .!!!
And, the expression is appropo --

This is corporatism plain and simple and PRE-BRIBED Democratic Party.

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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
67. Those that are "unrec'ing" want our party to stand for nothing.
n/t.
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
151. Well, with posts like this, un-recing is easy and pleasant, almost as gleeful ...
Edited on Sun Jul-12-09 10:33 PM by George II
....as the OP is about repeatedly bashing Democrats on srained "logic" or false reasons.
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #15
200. I thought that was it's purpose
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #3
244. We have a spine at the citizen and volunteer levels.
Once we start looking at elected officials, however, the jellyfish model takes over.
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #244
259. so true and so sad
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
4. Proudly recommended!
If the party really goes through with this, then I will no longer be a Democrat.

NO party I belong to will treat women in this very shameful way.

How sick is this?

To hell with them.

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
6. Senate trying to ban Global Gag Rule
Didn't you just post this a few days ago??

Maybe you missed some positive news.

"The Senate Appropriations Committee passed an amendment to the foreign aid appropriations bill yesterday that would permanently ban the Global Gag Rule. The amendment, which passed 17-10 with one member voting present, stipulates that foreign NGOs must not be prevented from receiving US aid on the basis of providing abortion services to women."

http://www.feminist.org/news/newsbyte/uswirestory.asp?id=11809
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I post it quite often. You have the right to ignore my posts or unrecommend them.
Please feel free.

Yes, I heard that, and I am waiting to post about it until it is for sure.

Besides what I posted about concerns women in this country. Will our Democrats stand up for us?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. You post as if it's brand new info
for people to get in a twirl over. 18, or 19, House members are not going to make the difference on the health care bill, and no public health insurance would cover medically unnecessary abortions in this country anyway. I don't know of a state whose Medicaid program covers all abortions, do you?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. I will continue to post about it. Why do you not care? "in a twirl"?
Why are you so casual.

We agreed on a few things once upon a time...but apparently not any longer.

What a phrase for women to use against a woman who is standing up for rights to make decisions.

You really should hide my posts if they bother you so much.

You offend my intelligence when you say I post as if it is new.



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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. What state has Medicaid paying for abortion? n/t
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #20
72. IT DOESN'T MATTER!
There's no good reason to keep spamming the same irrelevant question over and over.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #20
165. In spite of your friend Henry Hyde's attempts to limit choice
Edited on Sun Jul-12-09 11:13 PM by ProudDad
32 states plus DC fund cases involving life endangerment, rape or incest...

17 states fund all or most "medically necessary" abortions (determined between patient and her doctor)...

So, yes, if these disgusting christianist blue-dog dems and their republican taliban fellow travelers have their way with a "public option", they would further limit women's health services...

---------------

On edit: it took me 2 minutes to find this site. If you're so damn interested learn how to google... :evilgrin:
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #165
186. Oooh, so we already have that problem
Where ALL abortion isn't funded in every state, so where is the evidence that its becoming "more prevalent with Democrats" that "womens rights are expendable", as the OP claimed? It's a bunch of bullshit. There are 19 House Dems who have written a letter expressing concern over abortion. And the OP goes into yet another hyperbolic rant as if the entire Democratic Party has omitted abortions from health care. It's absolutely absurd and she posts this shit day after day after day.

Where is all the uproar about women who don't have access to abortions right now? Oh yeah. There is none.

How about we focus on what's important instead of constantly letting people drum up animosity over absolutely nothing.

I guarantee, right now, any plan we get will include abortion, at least as much as the federal law requires now.

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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #186
297. It just means that women's rights and needs
have been and obviously are expendable by both right-wings of the big business Party...

I'll bet you $100 there will be NO abortion included in a "health care" bill coming out of Congress this year...
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-14-09 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #297
311. Bet
It has to. There are too many medical emergencies that require abortion.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #14
196. California. MediCal covers elective abortion,
and pregnancy qualifies one for emergency MediCal, so the eligibility limits are higher than normal.

Additionally, California's Family PACT program covers birth control, STD treatement and routine reproductive health care (pap smears, mammography, treatment for infections of the urinary and genital tracts, etc.) The eligibility limits are higher than MediCal and assessment for eligibility is done at the doctor's office the day of treatment.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
8. I oppose any attempt to restrict womens' rights, especially when it's driven by religion.
NT!

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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
9. I'm all for covering abortions in the health care bill.
Really. I hope that that can happen.

If the choice in the end, however, comes down to striking that from the bill to get a bill or getting nothing at all, then I will opt on the side of getting a bill.

I hope it does not come to that.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. All that hoping means nothing.. Demanding and expecting might be better.
.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I'm not willing to hope that my reproductive health is respected. n/t
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. Women on medicaid have to hope
Where's the fight for them?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #9
217. Well said. (nt)
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
12. You make several really good points. n/t
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
13. Sad fact is, there's no one and no group that Democrats won't sell out
at some point or another.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
16. this isn't about abortion, but really about choice
That a woman should be able to make up her own mind about medical matters involving her own body. Over the last few days, I've been in a rather heated argument with another DUer over whether pharmacists should be required to fill all legal prescriptions, including those for Plan B, etc. This person assumed that, because I was for choice, I wanted to force every doctor to perform abortions and nonsense like that. I don't want to force anybody to do anything--and banning abortion procedures from any medical health coverage IS forcing women to do things like carry dead fetuses in their bodies, endure excruciating pain and possible death from a tubal pregnancy, have the child of a rapist or, worse yet, the child of an incestuous relationship.

All medical procedures must be covered by health plans. To compromise on one that is done exclusively on women shows how little those lawmakers think of women.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. I agree with what you said. To compromise shows a low opinion of women
and quite frankly of doctors as well.
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
76. Well said, ayeshahaqqiqa!!! + 1000 n/t
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
160. All medical procedures must be covered by health plans.
Edited on Sun Jul-12-09 10:56 PM by AlbertCat
If someone wants to get their nose fixed I don't see why a public health plan should pay for that. Colonic cleansing anyone? Hair restoration?

Required, preventive and life improving medical procedures should be covered. Of course one could argue that fixing a bad nose or hair restoration in certain cases might be life improving.

All abortions are not created equal. It seems to me that the situation of the abortion is important. I'm sure if it's essential for the health of the mother, it should be covered.

It's a difficult point.... as abortion usually is. But it's obvious some abortions should be covered.

I don't see that a compromise like covering medically needed abortions and all birth control at the expense of not "needed" abortions is a complete betrayal of women's rights. No one said anything about illegal, mind you.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
17. K & R
I am tired of all human rights being treated as bargaining chips to keep those in power where they are.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
22.  71% favor including reproductive services such as birth control and abortion as part of health care
That is from a Time article by Tumulty.

Could Abortion Coverage Sink Health-Care Reform?

Indeed, the abortion question is just one of a myriad of tricky questions that will emerge from the fine print as the health debate moves forward. Democratic leaders say, for example, that they are already prepared to accede to Republican demands that illegal immigrants be excluded from the plan. But other issues, such as abortion, are going to be far more difficult to navigate. (Read "Understanding America's Shift on Abortion.")

If an explicit ban on abortion coverage were imposed, say sources involved in writing the legislation on Capitol Hill, it could have much further-reaching implications than the Hyde Amendment ever did. It could, in fact, have the effect of denying abortion coverage to women who now receive it under their private insurance plans. Nearly 90% of insurers cover abortion procedures, according to a 2002 survey by the Guttmacher Institute, a nonprofit organization whose statistics are relied upon by both sides of the abortion debate.

Under the legislation being worked on by three committees in the House, Americans earning up to 400% of the poverty level — $43,000 for an individual; $88,000 for a family of four — would be eligible for government subsidies to help them purchase coverage. But if the antiabortion legislators get their way, those subsidies would have a big string attached; they could not be used to purchase a policy that has abortion coverage. For many women, that would mean giving up a benefit they now have under their private insurance policies. And it would raise all sorts of other questions if insurers were allowed to discriminate among their customers based on whether or not they are using federal dollars to pay for their policies.

Abortion-rights advocacy groups are pushing back. On July 6, the National Women's Law Center (NWLC) released a poll of 1,000 likely voters conducted by the Mellman Group indicating that 71% favor including reproductive services such as birth control and abortion as part of health reform. The poll also found that 75% believe an independent commission should determine what medical services are covered among the basic benefits offered under health reform. (Congress is also considering giving that power to the Health and Human Services Secretary.) Said NWLC vice president Judy Waxman: "Congress should refrain from practicing medicine and instead let medical professionals determine what health-care services will be included in a benefits package."
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #22
139. And, rightly so, abortion and birth control should be covered . . .
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #22
295. 71% is awfully big for a fringe
are you sure that isn't based on a "push poll"?

(I hate the sarcasm smiley so please just pretend one is here)
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
24. Never mind.
Edited on Sun Jul-12-09 05:11 PM by madfloridian
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
27. 19 House Democrats represent narrow-minded constituencies, nothing new here
This is what Conference Committees are for. Cut all of that crap out of the bill and send it back for an up or down vote.
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
29. I see it more as an assault on "Reproductive" Rights in General
Abstinence only says no condoms, no birth control pills, etc.

Morning after pills, surgery free abortive pills, we get into the "conscience" question of pharmaceutical dispensers who refuse to issue legal drugs ordered by a physician to a patient about whose condition the dispenser has no possible way of knowing.

Some are questioning IUDs as being pre-emptive abortions?!

How long before woman are not allowed to get hysterectomies and men are not allowed to get vasectomies?
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
32. "giving in on women's rights to make medical decisions"
I am not sure where that is happening. If people have to pay for their own abortions rather than having the government pay for it, then what rights have they lost? Same with birth control and same with viagra. Same with plastic surgery and chiropractors. Same with lasic surgery and cosmetic dentistry.

To me, there are optional medical procedures and then there are voluntary ones. The less of the latter that we cover, then the more affordable our coverage becomes.

You don't lose any rights just because you have to pay for your own procedures. Clearly there are exceptions to that - 1) when abortion is necessary to save the mother's life, and 2) when the required operation is very very expensive. But neither of those are true for most abortions are they?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Please don't speak of birth control and viagra as being equal things.
This is becoming an interesting thread.

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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #33
46. they are not equal, but they have some similarities
the main one being that the patient will not die or suffer medical catastrophe if they don't get them. They also both might fall under the category of 'health care expenditures'.

I thought of including allergy medication as well. Something I 'need' twice a year. Life would really, really suck without it, but I don't expect my insurance company to pay for Claritin (or some prescription of that type) or even for the honey and OTC medicine that I use. Until they stop marketing the things I buy, I have not lost any right to buy them just because I have to pay for them myself.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. I am astounded at your post. Now you compare birth control to allergy medicine.
I think you are just spouting off, I can't believe you mean it.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Not a very informative reply.
They also are both 'health care expenditures'.

Can you please explain the fifty ways?

I can see one huge difference. Unlike allergy meds, birth control is perhaps a normal (meaning for the vast majority of people) expense for women between the ages of 16 and 45, and also something that is probably desired by most of the sex partners of said women.

Still, to me, does not put it in the category of 'medical necessity'. Something can be very, very desirable without being a necessity.

Of course, the same could easily have been said about my (covered) knee surgery.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. This is too serious to play word games with you.
You have a right to differ, and you have differed.

I don't know how to argue with someone who equates birth control with viagra and cold medicine.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. there is no 'equating' though
just because I say things are similar does not mean they are equal. This is not a word game either. I might say something about cockroaches and humans. They are both animals, or about bats, dolphins and humans, they are all mammals. That does not mean I have equated a human with a cockroach - a position which is kinda ridiculous.

But I might easily say that they all require oxygen.

So what is your POV that makes it such an outrage for birth control to not be covered? It clearly does not take away anybody's right to buy their own birth control, but it takes away their ability to do it with OUR money. Why do you think I should be forced, in theory, to pay for the birth control of somebody who is not having sex with me?
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kiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. I've posted in a few threads about this, and noticed
that you have very strong opinions about procedures and medication you don't view as necessary, including (in this thread) allergy meds. I consider much of this to be basic medical care, and am curious to know what you think should be covered by any sort of public option--is it only intervention that is literally life saving, or does quality of life or preventative measures come into the equation? What about vaccinations, pap smears, annual blood checkups?
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. We're about to have a discussion in this country
of what constitutes "basic medical care", and I guarantee that 95% of the people in this country will have differences with what emerges from that discussion. I can almost certainly guarantee that 99% of the folks here will disagree.

Does that mean we have to do nothing in the meantime? It might. It would make all that concern for people who are being bankrupted by medical bills for non-controversial treatments look somewhat hollow, though.
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BuelahWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #65
202. It's not just about abortion
It's about viagra being covered but birth control pills are not. They haven't been covered in many health care plans for a long time. How about someone inventing a norplant like device and putting it into men, so that they cant' impregnate? I'm all for covering that too.
The damn companies trip over themselves so that no man suffers the indignity of erectile dysfunction, but they turn a blind eye to preventing unwanted pregnancies. What it comes down to is trying to control women. Anyone who will refuse to fill our prescriptions for birth control or cover the cost is doing just that.
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #57
64. I must say, I find your point of view refreshing on this forum
You've run into the same mindset I encounter around here when the the sacrament of abortion comes up, it's not even up for debate at the margins, such as conscience clauses for those who wish not to become forced participants. I see a lot of righteous "not in my name" talk here every time the subject of CIA torture or general warfare comes up, and I completely understand people not wanting to pay for meddling in areas of the world where we have no damned business, but that logic seems to escape people when it comes to paying for their pet causes.

Under a representative system of law, compromises will be made that reflect the feelings and morals of all parts of the government unit being legislated over, and sometimes it will add in things such as seniority and bribery, er, lobbying money. That just happens. Barack Obama was elected President, not dictator, he has to work with the system we have in place. And he's done a pretty effective job of it, so far.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #64
68. Whoa! "sacrament of abortion"
I expected dissent, but I am overwhelmed by this new way of framing those of us stand for things as "righteous."

Life is too short for reading and arguing stuff like that.
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #68
83. well, if he could get pregnant
he would demand that abortion be a sacrament.
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #83
88. So, every female of child-bearing age
in this country wants abortion to be legal? Not even close.

Getting back to the subject, this whole topic started over the compromises that will inevitably have to be made if we're going to get universal health care in this country. You have a number of Democratic Congresspersons in districts where they barely got elected asking that abortion (which is not universally covered by health insurance in this country) be something outside of the necessities that we've been selling universal care over, which are things that are always life threatening, and often extremely expensive.

Then we have the OP talking about throwing women under the bus. I guarantee you, that since we cannot pay for every possible thing for everyone (and will not, in a number of cases) that there will be some people who can cry that they are being thrown under the bus.

It's the people who can't afford the bus fare who are watching closely to see if the bus will even arrive. They don't care if they're at the front of the bus, or the back of the bus, or even if it kneels for them. They just want to be able to ride away from the bad neighborhood of financial ruin they are finding themselves in.
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #88
94. what exactly did you mean about "sacrament of abortion"?
stop obfuscating and defending the trivialization of reproductive health care. what did you mean by "sacrament of abortion"?
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #94
97. Ok, if I were a poster over at Freeptardville
and I wanted to support rational restrictions on handguns, I might encounter the sacrament of the gun.

It's a metaphorical device, I'm sorry if my point was lost on you.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #88
96. Most women I know want control over their own bodies
anyone claiming the opposite would have to care little about themselves and their rights to decisions pertaining to their own body. I would assume most would... they may not like the idea of having an abortion but want the right to decide for themselves since it is their own body.
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #96
99. I guess we've traveled in different circles
I've lived in rural Washington State, and while that is an abortion-rights friendly state, I can safely say that not everybody feels that way.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #99
111. I think abortion is too often the subject matter and not women's rights to their own body's
I hope not all women think the same... frankly that would be a bit disturbing, but most I have talked to did not like the idea of having an abortion but wanted to be the one to make that decision without a church or a government interfering.

I thought about this long and hard, and am horrified at the thought of others telling all women what they can and can't do with their own body. One way of preventing abortion is education but the same people who would rather make laws to control a women's body are the ones preventing sex ed.

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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #111
166. horrified at the thought of others telling all women what they can and can't do with their own body.
This is all very interesting and I whole heartedly agree.

BUT.... we're not talking about making abortion illegal, we're discussing who will pay for the legal procedure.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #166
224. and if a woman can't afford to have an abortion, what then
indirectly if coverage is denied, that woman will have to have that child irregardless. It is essentially denying a right.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #99
237. Women who choose to have a child rather than an abortion,
have the choice. It's not sacrament of abortion. It is sacrament of choice. Those who choose to carry out a childbirth, have that right. Those who choose to have an abortion have that right, too.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #88
145. What America is paying for now would provide for the most luxurious of health care systems!!!
On a par with what Switzerland has -- !!!

We are the wealthiest country in the world -- but all we can afford is war?

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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #68
84. It does seem to take on that aspect over here
It's like guns are over at Freeperville, anyone silly enough to question the right of the people to keep and bear any kind of weapon of whatever description is shouted down with the Second Amendment.

I find that the NRA and NARAL use a lot of the same rhetoric, they just have different subject matter to concern themselves with. Political forums such as this one tend to bring out the extremists on given points of view.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. Wanting proper and timely medical care is not an extremist point of view.
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #85
95. We're about to have a discussion about what constitutes "proper"
Me, I'd oppose any plan that pays for IVF for a couple with two children or more. I'm sure the GLBT community is going to be upset over the fact that there is not the political will in this country to pay for sex-reassignment surgery. Californians will be less than mellow over prohibitions about paying for medical marijuana.

Everybody has their own ideal notion about what universal healthcare would look like, and how it's going to be paid for. If we do actually get it, it will look nothing like what 95% of them expected to see. It's just a question of how many people will say, "OK, it's better than nothing, we'll try to amend it in the next session of Congress."
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #95
119. Well, you have your discussion. Then get back to me.
When you and the Democrats decide who is worthy of having rights and who is not....let us know...let me know.

Trust me this party needs its women more than it thinks.

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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #119
130. The discussion isn't going to be here
it's going to be on the floor of Congress. This letter simply represents the number of Democratic representatives who are willing to sign their names to that letter. I strongly suspect that there are more who are hoping to not have to declare themselves one way or the other on this, and that it will be worked out in committee, behind closed doors.

This topic has sure taught me something, if the Repukes want to divide us, they seem to have plenty of places to start, and the debate over universal healthcare would be one of them. Your threat about the Party needing its women would be music to their ears. They'd love to see us break up into two or three factions now that we finally have some real power after decades of putting up with Rethug and DLC presidents.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #130
131. Well, then maybe the party doesn't need its women.
I was just letting you know that the conversation is going to be held without us, and you can just let me know how it all goes.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #84
125. Now you compare women's rights to gun rights. You are trying to get into a fight here.
I see a lot of that here lately. People being snide about really important things, and zeroing in things not so important.
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #125
171. I see a lot of that here lately.
What I see HERE is a lot of not reading and deliberate denseness in understanding what posters are writing. Just unreasonable.
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #125
204. I'm comparing the "no compromise whatsoever" attitudes
between the most staunch defenders of the two sets of rights. It's pretty hard for me to think of ANY Constitutional right that is completely absolute. Even Roe vs. Wade acknowledged that in the last trimester of pregnancy, the states have an interest in getting involved, if its legislatures so desire to.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #64
143. Individual morals are fine . . . organized religious dictates, religious meddling is not --
As the saying goes, if males had wombs . . . "abortion would be a sacrament."

Women's right to self-defense either does or doesn't still exist -- whether or not the
damage is being done by a fetus. Which is it?

We don't have to "work with the system" -- especially when the system is corrupt --
includes TORTURE and wiretapping.

If you're willing to work with this system then you are enabling fascism.



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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #57
167. If males could get pregnant, you might understand! (n/t)
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #57
183. Well, you'd have to pay for lung cancer treatment for someone who didn't share his cigarettes
You can't really be offended at the idea of federal funding for contraception. It doesn't go against anyone's morality, really.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #183
191. that's kind of unfortunate too
but it's part of a more generic coverage - I pay for the treatment of people who get cancer. It would be all to easy for me to find myself in that group. In fact, that is probably far more likely than me ever having sex, especially sex with somebody of child-bearing age. As far as I am concerned, those who are getting the nookie can pay for their own damned protection. It's like everybody wants me to pay the piper without ever getting to dance. :argh:
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #191
192. "Those who are getting the nookie can pay for their own damned protection"?
"It's like everybody wants me to pay the piper without ever getting to dance".

Er...what's the real issue with you here?

It almost sounds like you're blaming people who use contraception for your inability to have a sex life. That isn't really what you mean to say, is it?

Also, it sounds like, if you'd had one more line in that post, it would've been something like "you kids get off my lawn!"

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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #192
195. are there kids on my lawn!!!
What I meant to say, is that I don't like to pay for things I don't need. It's not blaming them, any more than my attitude that if they want to smoke after sex they should buy their own cigarettes. If our national insurance plan goes up by even a mere $5 a month because it now covers contraceptives. Then that's $60 a year that is not providing me any benefit.

This is something that other people want, so why should I help to pay for it?

Of course, it may depend on the actual numbers. Would it be $5 a month (or more), in which case I would object, or 10 cents a month (or less) which would make an objection on grounds of cost kinda petty - even for me.
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Fedja Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #195
227. Sheesh...
I pay tax for breast cancer and vaginal operation coverage. I also pay for OBGYN visits and pregnancy meds.

I don't need any of the above, as I'm a man. I love paying for that coverage however. You see, I think that my money isn't as important as the lives of my compatriots. I hope that I will never need to be a burden on our medical budget, and that I'll always be successful enough to help save people in need.

Patriotism isn't defined by how many flags you own. It's in what you do when your fellow men are in trouble. So the question presents itself... "Why do you hate America?"
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #195
275. BTW, who the heck says "nookie" anymore?
Edited on Mon Jul-13-09 02:45 PM by Ken Burch
Are you a refugee from the Dean Martin Celebrity Roasts or something?

At least you drew the line at "hanky-panky".

(For your information, the current phrases are Borat's "Sexy Time". or Opus The Penguin's "Snugglebunnies".)
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #275
281. perhaps fans of Limp Bizkit
Party like it's 1999

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWBk61PdphE

I make no apologies for not trying to sound like a hip 15 year old.




But who says hip anymore?
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #281
283. Mainly orthopedic surgeons. But they mean something else, usually
n/t.
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ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #192
215. Er, I think you've got that wrong.
Apparently, he/she is blaming people who DON'T use contraception. And if we're talking about reproductive rights, then we are also talking about reproductive responsibility, are we not?
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #215
256. No, the poster was specifically objecting to federal funding for contraception, as well as abortion
Edited on Mon Jul-13-09 01:07 PM by Ken Burch
And actually used the insulting comparison the right uses with funding Viagra.
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ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #256
289. I think that's the conjecture, though...
How far do we go with this? Maybe, if you could indulge me for a moment, give me some idea of what should be covered by such a plan and what not?
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #191
299. WTF??? (n/t)
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Jester Messiah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #52
209. That is why you fail.
You don't know how to argue or convince people who hold differing views, and you are so zealous about your own views that you can't bring yourself to try and find common ground. You need these other folk, because this is a representative democracy.

Furthermore, this is a war that has to be won one battle at a time. There is never going to be a magic bill that solves everything all at once upon passage. Stomping your foot and shouting "NOW!" like a child only insures marginalization.
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efhmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #51
113. When the women go, the party will sink and they will go if
treated as second class citizens.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #113
147. Agree . . . without female support the Democratic/Corporate Party will die --
Not unlike what happened to the Catholic Church when their right-wing cult organized

a coup against Vatican II --

The RCC has written off America/Canada and most of Europe --

finding their new fortunes in China and Africa!

As though Africa doesn't have enough problems without RCC . . .!!!

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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #113
211. The only problem is - where the hell do we have to go?
We have no where else to go. The Dem leadership knows this and that is why women have always been taken for granted in the Democratic party - and we always will.
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Fedja Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #211
228. Hrm
My country would likely take you :)

Would be a riot to see an exodus not from one of the parties, but one on the borders. When faced with an eternity of German porn and tapping feet in airport bathrooms... I bet the 2 parties would come to their senses real fast :D
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #51
181. So why are you so dismissive of the importance of funding contraception?
The more contraception used, the fewer women there'd likely be needing abortions.

Someone's future could be badly damaged because they couldn't get contraception. This isn't going to be the case with viagra. Viagra is simply a frill.
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #47
162. Now you compare birth control to allergy medicine.
Edited on Sun Jul-12-09 11:05 PM by AlbertCat
I am astonished at your hysterical crazy reply.

You did not read the post. No one compared birth control to allergy medicine.

Calm the fuck down and you might catch the meaning of the post....

Just because some medical plan doesn't pay for something that is available, it doesn't mean you have lost any rights.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #162
169. [b]IT DOES IF YOU'RE POOR![/b]
Elitist hypocrites...
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #162
182. Why the rage there, dude?
It's not like it harms anyone if contraception is paid for. There's no case against funding it.
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Fedja Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #162
230. There is no medical plan
<expletive>

I'll forego adolescent flinging of feces, however much I may be tempted. The point of socialized healthcare is to have no plan. To simply cover people for vital medical expenses.

If heart surgery costs 2 million USD, people who don't have 2 mil and need it are sentenced to death. They lost rights. Now please, and I'll try to be as medically correct as possible here, extract your cranium from your rectum and think of why this system is proposed in the first place.
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #230
239. Learn to read
Edited on Mon Jul-13-09 11:29 AM by AlbertCat
I was discussing how the responders to posts did not seem to understand what the poster wrote....just like you didn't understand what I wrote.

So I'll spell out my position plainly:

I think Viagra, Birth Control and sex education.....and abortions!!!!!!... should all be paid for. After all, the source of most problems on this planet is overpopulation. Not every baby is a little bundle of joy. So pay for abortions! I'm for funding it.

However, if funding abortions is gonna derail the ENTIRE health care plan, then a compromise must be struck. I think a reasonable compromise would be to fund birth control and non-elective abortion but not elective abortion. This is not perfect. It is a compromise. But it is much better than letting the whole thing sink. (I made such a statement in a post much earlier, BTW)

Of course now someone will not read what I wrote and call me a woman hater and anti-choice and that I have my head up my ass when I really agree with them 90% if not 100%.

My problem is emotional hysteria from people too worked up to think clearly or read and understand what very reasonable people are posting.

It's much like the religious hysteria surrounding this issue.
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EndersDame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #47
258. Hey in the thread about plan b it was compared to bacon, ciggarettes
and skin mags . I just don't understand. I am a 23 yearold student/waitress I do not want to have kids nor do i want to have an abortion. Both can be prevented with birth control
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #32
41. You do realize that Molly Ivins would never have agreed with you
on this. Right?
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. quite possible
You have a column where she discusses it, or do you just think I should switch to a BillO icon?

Do we have BillO icons?

I prefer Molly, even if I may not always agree with her on everything.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #44
59. Molly Ivins - in her own words.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #59
75. Thanks so much for those links. I loved Molly Ivins.
.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #75
102. I did too.
A very smart lady who wasn't afraid to say what she thought.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #59
87. interesting
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #44
184. And you do also realize that a society where women couldn't get abortions OR birth control
Would automatically be a society where women had no rights or dignity, don't you?
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #184
193. and nobody is talking about taking either away
the question is who will pay for them. You expect me to. I would rather have the people who are having the sex pay for the protection and consequences of their own actions. They have thereby lost zero rights, except the right to have me pay part of their expenses.

But I would go further than that. A society without birth control would not be all that fun for men either. We'd be drowning in babies and child-rearing expenses, or alternatively we'd never be able to have sex.

Then again, you are sorta talking about 19th century America, which was not all that bad for either men or women.
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #193
213. Actually, they are
They are talking about taking it away from poor women. If a woman can't pay for a procedure, that procedure is no longer available to her. Or, perhaps it is but just not in a clean and safe environment. Maybe that doesn't matter to you...

But then, reading your real reasons for not supporting a medical procedure for women (i.e. - if I'm not 'getting any', I shouldn't have to pay for people who are), I'm quite certain it doesn't.

Re: "Then again, you are sorta talking about 19th century America, which was not all that bad for either men or women." - wow. Just wow.
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csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #32
66. Those blocking women's access may not do it directly
Often they prevent groups or clinics that provide family planning, birth control, or abortions to chose between offering those services or accepting any money at all from government programs, even if the government funds are not used for the controversial services. This reduces the number of clinics and service providers and makes it more difficult to locate them in convenient locations.

For instance, the clinic where the doctor was assassinated in Kansas was the only one in several states that provided late abortions - and those were not elective abortions, but medically necessary. I wonder how many women whose lives were - and how many more will be - endangered or lost because they could not find where to get this needed service?

The facilities that provide family planning - not abortion and maybe not even birth control, just for counseling about those choices and information on where to get access - in some cases have been denied government funds, just for providing information. Talk about getting between a patient and their doctor - it is already here, sanctioned by the religious extremists under the auspices of our government.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #66
148. Late term abortion is the right to self-defense . . . even against a fetus--!!!
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #32
73. If a woman can't afford an abortion out of pocket, she effectively has no right to get one
Rights don't exist if they can't be enforced.
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #32
74. Not all abortions are elective.
We need to keep the health insurance companies and the various religious groups from practicing medicine without a license, against the best interests of the individual, no matter gender.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #32
174. While I both appreciate your words *&* would not have expressed myself thus I agree...
with your post as a summary matter, thanks
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yewberry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #32
185. I have to call bullshit here.
You're not sure where that's happening? Really?

Try all over the US.

Remember under GWB, the US defunded UNFPA, because UNFPA provided abortion services? Of course, the regime ignored the fact that UNFPA also provides prenatal care, OB/GYN services, emergency services, HIV/AIDS prevention education, and anti-poverty support for extremely poor communities.

Same deal here. The tactic is to refuse to provide funding for groups that provide or refer to those who provide abortions. Like Planned Parenthood. So, let's not fund Planned Parenthood, is that it?

Let's forget the poor women (Hi, I've been one) who rely on them for contraceptives, routine gynecological visits, prenatal help, etc. This isn't a tactical strike in which groups like PP get funding for everything but abortion--it's all or nothing. And let's not forget--it's not always about funding. In 2005, 87% of counties in the US had no abortion providers. That's a nice tactic, too. So, it might be legal, but unless you can afford to travel, well, that's just tough. Those who have the resources they need will be able to afford "choice" and those who don't...won't.

You might not lose any rights "just because you have to pay for your own procedures." However, access to those procedures is what's at stake. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 04:50 AM
Response to Reply #185
197. I have to call BS on that statistic
87% of counties don't have an abortion provider. Consider a state like South Dakota, where 29 of 66 counties have less than 5,000 people and another 18 have less than 10,000 people. That's 71% of counties in that state. Should Moody county with 6,511 people have an abortion provider for the two women every three years who will want one? When Brookings is less than half an hour away (and Sioux Falls not much further)?

62 out of 103 counties in Kansas has less than 10,000 people. Note that there are 66 counties in South Dakota and 103 in Kansas, compared to only 14 in Massachusetts, which has many more people. There are 23 counties in sparsely populated Wyoming and 55 in West Virginia. 83% of the population of Nevada lives in just two counties. Same with 42% of the population of Nebraska (I was surprised that number was not higher).

So I don't think that's a meaningful statistic. Especially considering that it is fairly easy to travel.

That it has happened with past legislation is not the same thing as saying it will happen with future legislation.
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #197
231. I agree that county statistics can be misleading but they tend to be the level of aggregation
Edited on Mon Jul-13-09 10:26 AM by Gormy Cuss
next below state. In this case however there's another more telling statistic: in 21 states more than half the women live in counties without an abortion provider, and in 33 states more than 1 in 4 women live in counties without an abortion provider. (source: Kaiser Family Foundation, 2008)

So as misleading as the "87% of counties.." statistic could be, looking at a different county-level stat shows that there's already a serious access problem and while it's "fairly easy to travel" for people with the means for many women it's just not practical because the distance would require taking time off work maybe without pay or at the risk of losing the job, and possibly arranging for overnight or longer babysitting for other children if there's no spouse or the spouse can't take time off from work. Then of course there's the cost for the procedure, the cost of transportation, and in some case the cost for lodging.

eta: according to a 2005 survey of non-hospital providers, the national estimate was that 8% of patients traveled more than 100 miles to the facility and 19% traveled 50-100 miles. (Guttmacher Institute, 2008) According to the same study 37% of metropolitan statistical areas (MSAs) had no abortion providers. That means the limited access goes far beyond just rural counties.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #231
269. kind of astounding about the MSAs
Although some MSAs like Carson City, Nv, which is pretty close to Reno, and another like Ithaca 29,900 and Cortland 19,800 are combined in one MSA of over 100,000.

The state statistics are not as impressive. Probably just includes states like Nebraska and SD where more than 50% of women don't live in the 2 or three largest cities. That's especially true of the 1 in 4 statistic. Unlike a McDonalds or a Wal-mart, a town of 18,000 people probably cannot sustain an abortion provider because of lack of demand.

But if you only have 27% driving more than 50 miles, then it seems to me that's pretty good access for the 73%. Lots of people are driving over half an hour to their jobs five days a week.

Kinda curious though, that abortion isn't available at the average hospital in the same way an appendectomy or a c-section is. Most towns of 5,000 have hospitals. Does it really require specialized training or equipment? Or do lots of hospitals and/or doctors not want to do it?
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #269
282. The only explanation for any of the statistics is that doctors aren't choosing to do abortions.
Remember that an abortion provider need only be a solo practice physician who performs them as part of a large ob/gyn practice, not a clinic or specialized practice. The overall rate of access has decline in the past decade and fewer new docs are learning the procedures because they don't ever expect to use it. Why is that? Well, plenty of theories abound but first and foremost it's the climate of hostility and violence toward providers. Access is disappearing because of pressure from people who believe that there is no choice in the matter.

The MSA estimate is hard to swallow for just the reason you mentioned and the fact that it reduces some of the weakness in the county statistics because most MSAs contain counties without services as well as one or more with an abortion provider.

And while you find it acceptable that 73% have "pretty good access" remember that stat is based on women who actually have abortions, not all of the women who would like to have the choice. As has been mentioned repeatedly on this thread, lower income women especially those living outside of MSAs have already had their choice restricted. Having a universal health plan that excludes payment for abortion will continue to have a disproportionately strong effect on these same women.

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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #282
288. Having a universal health plan that includes abortion
is first of all likely to kill the plan, and second of all likely to hurt us in future elections. You can hold those lower income women up as icons to support government subsidized abortions, but I don't think there are enough of those women to win any elections. Direct steps to reduce poverty would likely have a greater impact on those women, and without providing benefits to the 80% who are wealthy enough to pay for their own abortions.

You cannot use poor people to convince me to support a program when most of the benefits of that program would not goto poor women. How about we take the money we would spend providing abortions to non-poor women and use it to help end poverty?
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #288
293. I don't need to convince you. I'm just stating the case from the other side.
While your idea of using the money that would have been spent on abortions for women who aren't poor and diverting it to help end poverty, that's a great idea since there will be so many more children in poverty as a result of increasingly restricted choice. I'm not being snarky -- that's just reality. So is the likely increased burden on the universal health care system as a result of treating women for the after effects of botched attempts at DIY or at the hands of unscrupulous people pretending to be doctors.

As for not enough of those lower income women to win an election, they aren't the only people who care about the issue. Even though there has been some decline in recent years in the support for abortion rights that decline comes mostly from males and women are much more likely to vote against a candidate whose position is different on this issue. (Pew Research Center has the longest time series on this question)

If having a bona fide and common medical procedure included in a universal health plan is a deal breaker then there is no hope for such a plan and the U.S. will continue to have this Rube Goldberg approach to provision of affordable health care. As for hurting us in future elections, that's a risk with any bold policy decision.
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yewberry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #197
296. 35% of women live in those counties.
And travel is easy if you have money. If you don't it might not be so easy.
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #185
214. This is an excellent post! Thank you for going beyond abortion
and considering the affect this would have on women's health.
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Fedja Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #32
226. I'll go ahead and assume you're clueless
If abortion is made to be a payable service, access to it is limited, which is a discriminatory move.

In my country, a fairly popular Healthcare Minister (which would be the highest executive appointee for healthcare) once suggested that abortions may be excluded from national coverage. He was forced to resign the day after, and the people rose up against him on both sides of the isle.

It's like treating testicle cancer differently than breast cancer. You'd jump at that inequality I bet.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #226
273. taking you down the slippery slope
Access to food is limited, since people have to pay for it. That's discriminatory!! Especially since people NEED food to live, and most don't need an abortion to live.

And access to housing is limited. So is access to education.

Since both of your examples are cancers, it's not a relevant analogy. It's a little bit more like treating male pattern baldness different from a yeast infection.

In this country, you may know, there is a large and vocal segment of the population which does not want abortion to even be legal. Much less do they want to be forced to pay for said abortions. Political realities are not the same everywhere.
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Fedja Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #273
292. Your points stand
...in shitty countries.

You see, where I live the poor get food for free. They also get a roof over their heads. So yes, if there was no option of free food, I'd have a major problem with it.

As for your "segment of the population", it needs to shut the fuck up and take a back seat this term of office. They lost the election on a massive scale, and should be irrelevant. Which they would be, if you didn't have some so-called liberals taking a hard-right stance on the issue.

Quasi-liberals such as some posting in this thread are the reason that there's a virtual "holy left" which is being pandered to at the cost of women's rights. Political realities change, and I don't remember the slaves deciding it's fine if just some of em are free, you know, cause political realities are different. There comes a time when you simply have to man up and tell people to shut it and ride along.
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
34. Unrec women's rights?
Not a chance!

:kick:
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
35. This male is fully on the side of you ladies,
This shit is disturbing.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #35
241. Thanks, pal. Come sit right next to me. nt
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jesus_of_suburbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
37. I support ALL women and THEIR right to make THEIR decision for THEIR body.
This man supports you all.
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
39. Believe me, this isn't the only controversial thing
that will come up when it comes time to dot the i's and cross the t's on national healthcare legislation. There will be fights over birth control, sexual reassignment surgery, mental health care, medical use of marijuana, transplants, use of treatments derived from stem cells, assisted suicide, alternative 'medicine' and probably at least half a dozen other topics that I can't think of right now.

At this point, we have a set of mini-cartels of private companies in the many different areas of our country, they offer what they either need to offer to either please the majority of their markets, or to satisfy the laws of the states they operate in, which are indirectly a reflection of the sentiments in those markets.

It's only inevitable that nationalizing those markets is going to have political fighting as a consequence. The question is: what do we do about it? Do we let the 'perfect' be the enemy of the 'good'?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. I hate that term "don't let the "perfect" be the enemy of the good"
It has been used so much it has lost its meaning.

What it means is that we compromise some more.

Think about it, nearly every issue you mentioned is objected to on the basis of religious views.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #40
49. so what?
People with religious views still get to vote and also to lobby their representatives. Are you upset that we live in a representative democracy?

Another slogan involves 'to each according to their needs'. That group health care can cover what the group decides are their basic needs. Any individual can buy on their own what the group considers to be 'wants' or they can lobby the group and change the collective mind.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. So you think religious views are acceptable in making public policy?
I find that revealing.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. perhaps its revealing that you dont.
Public policy making in a representative democracy is about 'giving the people what they want'. Within reason. Since there's probably a majority that would agree to see me bludgeoned to death with large rocks if it was put to a vote.

But it does not really matter 'why' the public wants what they want. Maybe they want it for religious reasons, maybe they don't.

There is no part of the Constitution that says we cannot make laws for religious reasons. That is an overly broad interpretation of the 1st Amendment.

You seem to believe the Constitution is far more anti-religious than it has been in American history.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #54
58. I am a recovering Southern Baptist.
I do not think government and religion should be in bed together.

Did you see my post below that 71% believe that reproductive rights should be covered?

I say give the people what they want.

Do not question my religious views. I was raised in the church.

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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #50
60. Moral views are always a part of any public policy process
and separating the religious ones from the "common" moral ones (if there even are any commonly held moral views these days) is difficult.

Generally speaking, democratic societies tend to gravitate to middle positions that don't please anyone at the absolutes. The thinking in this case would go, "You want a sex change operation (or fill in the blank from the choices I listed above)? Fine, go ahead, but don't ask me to pay for it."
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #60
71. Now equating abortion to sex change. You guys are totally...
something.
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #71
124. It's not "equating", it's comparing them on a list
of things that are going to be controversial. If you thought that fighting Big Pharma and the private health insurance industry were the only battles President Obama had in the universal healtchare debate, you've been fooling yourself.

This is going to be a very messy time, we still have to work out dozens of details, we still don't even know who is going to be covered, when it will go into effect, who will pay for it, and the extent of the change (on the continuum from single-payer to just subsidizing private health insurance companies). Like I said on another post, anyone who likes laws and sausages should not watch either one being made.
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Fedja Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #124
233. A list of people, not conditions.
It's only going to be messy as long as (you) people are convinced that your problems are more important than the problems of others. That, and as long as (you) people are convinced that those too different from you are sub-human and not entitled to full care like you are.

Yes, I said it. Look at yourself in the mirror and face the bigot under your skin.
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Fedja Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #60
232. Really?
You want a cancer operated? You're in customer service, so I'm not paying for it. I hate every last one of you phone jockeys.

The above was an illustration... well... maybe it wasn't. Go figure.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #40
172. Not only that it's consistently misquoted...
Edited on Sun Jul-12-09 11:26 PM by ProudDad
"The original quote in French is "Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien.", from Voltaire's Dictionnaire Philosophique (1764) Literally translated as "The best is the enemy of good.", but is more commonly cited as "The perfect is the enemy of the good."

In other words, pursuing the "best" solution may end up doing less actual good than accepting a solution that, while not perfect, is effective. One could also infer that the best makes that which is good seem to be worth less than it is."

The BEST is the enemy of the good...NOT the perfect.

And the operative word is "EFFECTIVE"!

If the health care bill is just another give-away to the insurance mafia and big pharma without a viable public option that more resembles Medicare (an improved Medicare) than some public version of Cigna than it WILL NOT BE EFFECTIVE and should be soundly DEFEATED!

We're not freakin' here to make Obama look good or appear to have fulfilled his "promises". We're here to hold his and Congress' feet to the fire and make them do the right thing by the USAmerican People or lose their f*ckin' jobs!!!

----------

On edit: A "public option" without the potential to become a version of single-payer or one without complete coverage of women's reproductive services would be ineffective!
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #39
70. So you'd give in on everything?
If we compromise on all of the above, there'd be nothing left in the bill that still mattered.
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #70
104. Well, "nothing" is too strong a word
There are people dealing with cancer, heart disease, diabetes, do I need to list any more things?

They matter to me. They're non-controversal, and sometimes legislation needs to start out that way when it involves a whole new area that Federal legislation has left up to the states.

I know people have anxiously been awaiting the "Free Medical Care for Everybody Paid for by Rich People Act", but remember that analogy about sausages and laws?
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #104
116. Not true
Dontcha know diabetes and heart disease are the fault of the lazy fat people? And cancer patients want to be cured using aborted baby stem cells?

Ain't nothing uncontroversial if you give it the ground. Its a matter of where we choose to have the fight. As a lazy analogy, if we fight on our porch, we might end up with half our porch. If we fight on their porch, we might end up with half their porch, as well as ours and the yard and street between.
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #116
122. By even having the debate about universal healthcare for the first time in this country
we're already on their porch. Asking flyover country to pay for medical marijuana, sex change operations and aromatherapy is like asking to bust down the door.

There are some things that most folks here want that are just not going to be a part of the coming healthcare reform. If we hold it up over questions of whether the potheads or the Octomoms are getting thrown under the bus, then we risk looking more like the problem than the solution to an America looking for a way out of the healthcare mess.
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #122
141. I reject your assertion
Health Care Reform is the middle of the street at best. As far as I can tell, we are not having a discussion about universal health care. Ive heard talk of Health Care Reform, and even of increasing Health Insurance coverage to as much as 97% of us. Universal Health care has been near universally rejected. Most of the time it is declined a chance to even sit at the discussion table, much less being the focus of the discussion.

A Mandate to purchase health care insurance from a private insurer is, in my best estimation, kicking in my door. If you throw in a strong Govt option, it becomes my porch. As best I can eke out from the various tales and news bits, one of those 2 is where things seem to sit. In my bloody house. And I am told to be grateful I get that. Fuck No. 69 million people didn't vote just for shits and giggles. The 70 odd percent who want real health care should not be held back by the few who will never agree.
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #141
207. As long as the question of what's covered remains with
medical treatment procedures and drugs that are non-politicized, you're right, health care reform is middle of the street for many people. It starts looking like a battering ram headed for the door when it talks about taxing something many people take for granted is non-taxable, or when it looks like it's going to limit their choices of doctors, or provides benefits that are not routinely covered by health insurance.

There are a lot of folks out there perfectly fat and happy with the system the way it is, they and their employers shove far more into the health insurance companies than they take out, so they get few hassles when they want either a routine physical or a simple treatable illness paid for. The only reason they're willing to say, "Sure, why not?" to universal healthcare is that they figure it's not going to cost them anything. If we give the Repukes the ammunition, by guaranteeing insurance will pay for what they find questionable, and the bill is going to get paid out of their pockets, I'm certain that the Rethugs will be glad to use that to sink universal healthcare reform.
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #207
248. How do you not get that
Universal Healthcare Reform is not on the table. Its not even sitting on the floor begging for scraps. Its been locked out of the house. How are they going to sink something that ain't even under discussion?

There are a lot of folks out there who want a health care system. They would prefer to pay 3-4k per us citizen rather than 7+ per. They are the majority. The people who are happy with the system are the minority at this time. And by and large, they are the ones who don't need any prompting to hate "socialization". Giving the R's talking points to convince their own base is rather irrelevant.

Its the ones who are looking for results, the ones with open minds and real needs that are the ones we need to worry about. And a Mandate fucks us with them. Anything less than real reform fucks us with them, because it saves them no money, gives them no benefit, and looks like a handout to the insurance that has been reaming them for years.

Procedures are the least of the issues. I doubt that is even an issue "on the table" for most Americans. Follow the fucking money. That is where Americans are. Will it save them money, and will it provide actual care for the money. And that is where we win or lose this fight.
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #248
303. You've got a point
My personal favorite is single-payer, my fear is that private health insurance companies will find a way to pawn off all of the 'undesirables' into a public option plan.

Still, if we ever get to real health insurance reform, we are going to have a battle (several, actually) over what is to be covered, and what is "pay for it yourself".
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #122
176. You slept through history?
Edited on Sun Jul-12-09 11:32 PM by ProudDad
The first major debate about Universal Health Care that should have resulted in it was in 1933-34 as part of the New Deal...

It came up again in 1948 (when Britain was DOING it!)...

Then again in the 60s...

Then again under Nixon...

Then again in 93-94...

Now again...

And there were enough spineless wimps crying about "bipartisan" and "socialism" and "well if you cover abortion than you gotta pay for sex changes" to fuck it up then -- and appear to be enough to fuck it up now.

The BEST goddam "compromise" is COVER EVERYBODY, COVER EVERYTHING and let medicine be between doctors and patients and get the GOVERNMENT AND RELIGION AND "MORALS" THE FUCK OUT OF ALL MEDICAL DECISIONS!!!!
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #176
208. Oh, I was wide awake during history class
And I even personally remember the debate over Medicare during the Great Society days. These things all started out pretty small, that's the only way they could get passed. The proponents of these programs didn't try to swallow the apple whole, they just took a modest bite out of it, and once the premise was established that the apple could indeed be eaten, they nibbled away at the rest of it.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #208
298. Medicare was HUGE at the time...
Edited on Mon Jul-13-09 08:09 PM by ProudDad
Only the ruthlessness and experience of Lyndon Johnson could get it passed over the same organized, moneyed opposition that we're facing now.

He was unwilling to settle for not passing a viable "Public Option" and they knew they'd pay if they crossed him...

Even then, as usual, it is an inferior product compared to the Civilized World's health care systems.

Too bad USAmerica can't ever get it right...to f*ckin' incompetent (or greedy), I guess...
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #298
302. There was only one Lyndon Johnson
If only he had had some foresight when it came to Vietnam...
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mamaleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #39
86. Abortion, sex reassignment, and medical marijuana are not in the same category.
They are all controversial, yes.

But stop throwing out the rights of women as a way to avoid dealing with other issues.
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #86
106. I just recited a list of things that are going to get controversial
when push comes to shove on universal healthcare. You cannot say that you expected zero controversy on the subject of paying for these things, can you?
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mamaleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #106
112. No, but I guess from my perspective
abortion should one of the least controversial, after medical marijuana.

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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #112
120. What country have you been living in lately?
Abortion is a hot button issue in every Presidential election campaign, just wait until it rears it's head at the Sotomayor hearings this week.

And while medical marijuana is theoretically legal in a few states (that is, if President Obama asks the DEA to back off), it remains fully illegal throughout most of the US.

There's a gulf between what people will tolerate other people doing, and their willingness to subsidize it. All I'm pointing out is that we're on the verge of looking into that abyss for the first time as a nation.
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mamaleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #120
152. It is a hot button issue, to be sure.
But I would think most people would see that abortion is a medical issue that is very important. It's not tummy tucks and botox.

And it may get me flamed, but I see it as more vital than sex reassignment.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #120
177. So you're willing to let the christianist SCUM get away with it?
Edited on Sun Jul-12-09 11:34 PM by ProudDad
Just tell the fuckers: "If you don't want an abortion, then don't FUCKIN' HAVE ONE!"

Then tell 'em to go pound sand...'cause they ain't got the votes!!!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #39
149. Or ... do we sell out women and reproductive freedom?
We're not reinventing the wheel . . . other nations have already come to decisions about

these issues.

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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #39
253. "the perfect" as the enemy of "the good" is a strawman.
There is no "perfect." The good IS the enemy of the lesser evil.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
42. As always, recommended.
:thumbsup:
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
43. It seems that there are many Dems who feel that the rights of women, gays, union members,
workers in general, and sadly....many more groups....have become expendable.
They are not there to represent the people, but only to represent those corporations and such that fund their elections.
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Fortunately for us in this case these "many Dems" aren't well represented in the House.
These 19 House members constitute under 10% of the Democratic caucus.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #45
150. Where are the females in Congress united in the cause of reproductive freedom ... Are they???
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kiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
48. Recommend.
Our rights are not expendable, but politicians who think so are...
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
55. Big Frikin K/R!
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
56. I have to agree with this 100 %.
Edited on Sun Jul-12-09 07:33 PM by winyanstaz
It breaks my heart to see the rights which women have fought and yes,...even died for even being considered as being something they will throw away.
You don't see the Dem's or the republicans saying to throw out research on men's prostate cancers or any other male health care either.
I hate what this nation's elected representatives are doing to us.
I hate that my granddaughter's lives and rights may be put on the line.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
62. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
78. "...strength does not come from the consultants down. It comes from the grass roots up."
They have been caving since the late 80's and intentionally -- as pointed out in your MOST EXCELLENT AND RECOMENDED OP1 :yourock:

And in the Howard Dean quote: that's a great truism and his words are much appreciated. What has changed though in this 40 year cycle is the rise of the Consultancy Class and their inevitable presence permeating every aspect of American life and business.....


If Democratic Party leaves women, where are women supposed to go? Or, as in the "Fellership" are the "gals" supposed to WAIT: on every word; on hand and foot; forever?
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
79. That's been clear for a very long time. Just look at how woman are treated right here on DU.
How long did it take to have the "C" word banned?

It wouldn't be allowed to use the "N" word, and we've been told that gay rights is a given, yet.....

It's been shocking for so long now that it's just one more fact of life.
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #79
90. sadly true..................
amazes me what kind of nasty sexist insults the mods ignore here!!!
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rumpel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
80. thank you n/t
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
81. k+r, but the view seems to be that only one group can get "new" rights at a time.
Everyone must wait their turn.

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chknltl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
82. I'll recommend this
Edited on Sun Jul-12-09 08:44 PM by chknltl
nuff said
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
89. K and R
The Dems take progressive women for granted...they know we won't vote for the repugnants. I have more battles with my own party than the repugnants.

Maybe women need to stay home on Election Day....without us, dems can't win.

PLEASE....anyone got the names of the 19 asshole dems who hate women having choice. I want to write each one of them!!!!

thx.
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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
91. Everytime the DCCC calls for $$$ I tell them no, because I object to any $ for anti-choice Dems
who should be driven out of the party or forced to vote the party line on this issue, period!
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Liquorice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
92. I've noticed that there are an alarming amount of women who are
Edited on Sun Jul-12-09 09:00 PM by Liquorice
all too willing to let other issues take precedence over women's rights and issues. But if women don't put their rights at the top of the list, who will?
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
93. Let's analyze this latest anti-Democratic diatribe of yours.....
Edited on Sun Jul-12-09 09:08 PM by George II
There are 255 Democratic members of the House of Represenatives.

NINETEEN of them (a mere 7%!) signed a letter to their Leader stating that they do not want federal funding of abortion in a healthcare bill.

Abortion rights is just one of many issues that define one's support of women's rights (other are the right to vote, equality in the workplace, daycare support, etc. etc. etc.)

So, because these 19 Democratic members' position on ONE ISSUE, (7 percent of all Democrats), against inclusion of funding for abortions (I support inclusion of ALL medical procedures, by the way - healthcare is healthcare, regardless of the procedure), without an analysis of their positions on other women's right issues, you conclude "a view is becoming more prevalent among Democrats that women's rights are expendable..." !!!!! Based on the opinion of a small group of Democrats on one of a myriad of issues concerning women's right, you characterize ALL (again, "a view is becoming more prevalent among Democrats that women's rights are expendable...") Democrats' positions being that women's rights (ALL Democrats' positions on ALL women's right issues!!!) are "expendable"!

I give you credit where credit is due (albeit rarely lately), but why don't you just come out and say that you dislike the Democratic Party and their overall positions???? Post after post here you bash Democrats, find false or exaggerated fault with them, and refuse to agree with much of what they represent.

You'll call this "offensive" (as you've done in the past when I express MY opinion when it doesn't agree with yours, naturally), but based on you broad characterization of ALL Democrats in this post you are beginning to disgust me. You rarely if ever say anything good about Democrats but are perfectly happy with finding fault with them, whether it's justified or not.

My rant is over, and once this thread/discussion dies out (as they usually do after a day or two), be gleeful, because I am FINISHED with "Democratic Underground", Democrats on this site are few and far between.

And this was a measured, tempered response to you latest attack on the Democratic Party.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #93
114. Yes, I find your frequent insults to me very offensive.
I most certainly do. I have been a Democrat since I first registered to vote decades ago.

It is not set in concrete.
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #114
115. Well then, try just ONCE to post something positive about the Democrats, PLEASE!
Edited on Sun Jul-12-09 09:25 PM by George II
And, quite frankly (report this if you want) I find your continued willful and unabashed criticism of the Democratic Party offensive too.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #115
118. That is most certainly your right.
You can think of me what you wish.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #115
155. And I find your support for Democrats when they are wrong quite offensive . . .
Edited on Sun Jul-12-09 10:36 PM by defendandprotect
When the news is "positive" then we'll all be cheering it --

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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #155
163. How can only 7% of House Democrats not being in favor of ONE women's right issue be...
"wrong"? The premise of the OP is that "DEMOCRATS" as a whole find women's rights AS A WHOLE "expendable". That is an offensive one-issue, small minority of the party indictment Democrats' positions toward ALL women's rights. Offensive to the quick!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #163
170. Because that issue governs her total life ...
Edited on Sun Jul-12-09 11:21 PM by defendandprotect
which organized patriarchal religion well knows --

that's why they've always tried to control normal human sexuality --

both male and female.

It isn't just 7% of House Dems . . . it's all the Democrats who have voted

to undermine reproductive freedom, including "partial truth abortion."

Even HRC has spoken about finding "common ground" with anti-abortion fanatics.

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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #115
178. Here's one positive thing...
Edited on Sun Jul-12-09 11:41 PM by ProudDad
many democrats are getting sick of being shafted by their party as it slide to the right to fill the vacuum left by the republican "moderates" and are re-registering Green or Independent...

That's a good thing!
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #114
164. And just how have I "insulted" you (your usual assessment of those who disagree with your OPINION!)?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #164
173. The usual ones like you and a few others here don't have much impact
on my thought or the thought of most of us.

You DLC types might have the big power, but without us you don't got the votes, my friend.

I am used to certain ones here misinterpreting every damn thing I write.

I am right, you are wrong. The future will show that.
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #173
179. Repeat:: HOW HAVE I INSULTED YOU?
Edited on Sun Jul-12-09 11:42 PM by George II
Calling me a "DLC type" is quite insulting on your own part. Quite frankly, until mid-campaign last year (after participating in dozens of campaigns for Democratic candidates over the years including two for myself - both successful) I didn't even know what the DLC really was!

So, can you answer the question honestly or continue to hide behind anti-Democratic rhetoric forever?

Incidentally, it's clear to most knowledgeable Americans that on November 4 2008 WE GOT THE VOTES, "my friend", either with or without "you".

One more time, please - HOW HAVE I INSULTED YOU?????????
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #93
154. Of course we "dislike" a Democratic Party which behaves like the GOP . . .!!!
This isn't about 19 religiously fanatical Democrats with no respect for women --

This is about a few years of taking on "pro-lifers" and moving with the GOP to approve

"partial truth abortion" --

and of discussions of "compromise" with religous fanatics -- financing them -- and

abstinence -- and weakening stands re reproductive freedom overall.

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katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
98. A great big feminist K&R!
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
100. Here's another Kick! (nt)
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PeteytehMawnstar Donating Member (66 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
101. Oh you're sickened
I read comment not to long back about the tough decisions that will come with universal HC or a public option, basically it may come down to restricting certain life extending procedures for those pushing 100 which is fair game to discuss at least. So it isn't out of the question to considering not covering abortion, especially if birth control is already being covered. Sorry you can't deal with that without dishing attitude, but your comments on here toward others have been shoddy at best. Unless its medically necessary, abortion should be out of pocket. There are going to be things not covered, abortions are still legal so no rights have been violated. Government doesn't have to fund them.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #101
103. that depends upon your view of a women's right to choose
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #101
142. You consider women's medical rights a tough decision?
You would let them go so easily?

I see the writing on the wall now.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #142
188. Should all elective surgeries be covered? Or just elective abortions?
I think the issue is more complicated than some people are willing to acknowledge.

If the only way to pass real health reform is to not include elective abortions ( as opposed to those that are medically necessary, including for mental health) then so be it. Women would be far better off with universal access to health care than they are now, even if elective abortions and other elective procedures were not covered.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
105. I don't share the view that anyone's rights are expendable.
We can continue to compromise until the Democratic brand name is meaningless.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
109. K&R. Can we stop this rush to the center crap yet? (nt)
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
110. "Yes, it is bread we fight for / But we fight for roses, too."
--from Judy Collins' recording, "Bread and Roses"


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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
117. Kick....too late to give a Rec!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #117
180. Hi, thanks. It shouldn't be too late.
I will gladly take all I can get on this one. I posted it at 5:13 today, so it should still be ok?

Thanks for the thought though. :hi:
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
123. Because Women Who Deeply Care About This Stuff Will ALWAYS Vote Democratic
So why on Earth would any incumpent Democrat give a crap - it's a vote already won. Much better to move right and grab the middle voters.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #123
126. Times are changing now. We see politicians for who they are...
more than we ever really did in the past.

Times are changing. If we can not stand for important issues with a majority like this...then we won't ever do it.

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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #126
137. If Not Now, When?
Which makes Battlin' Barak and the Fightin' Democratic Congress that much more of a catastrophe.

I feel so totally bamboozled.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #137
140. Your choice of the word "catastrophe" is apt.
I feel more than bamboozled.
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pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
127. K&R
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
128. Corporatism finds equality inconvenient . . . those who think that ONLY women's rights ....
will be bargained away should understand this is global fascism

and it pretty much owns not only the Republican Party but the Democratic

Party as well.

If you understand that, you understand the urgent and immediate need for Plan B --

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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
133. Did I miss something - you indicate 19 house members signed a letter and your
title indicates it is a 'prevalent' view.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #133
138. You missed a whole lot.
But I won't try to fill in because I doubt you would understand. If that is all you got from it, then you won't understand.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #138
153. Your title indicates that there is a change in the majority or prevelent view of the
Democratic Party on Women's issues but all of the illustrations seemed to indicate that it was a relatively small number.

I would be very interested in any links that show that the majority or prevailing view of the Democratic Party is organizing a shift away from a strong support of woman's issues.

Absent that I will assume that the title has a shade of hyperbole.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #153
159. Well, there are the 12 anti-choice Dems the DCCC recruited last year.
I could not add all the stuff that is going on....the post gets way too long.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/3311

There is the faith-based council with about 19 anti-choice folks of th 25 on the council.

There is the woman appointed to oversee faith based initiatives at the HHS.

Alexia Kelley appointment....common ground not looking so good on this issue.

She is anti-choice in every way.

"Barack Obama has just selected anti-choice activist Alexia Kelley to oversee the Center for Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships at the Department of Health and Human Services. The President's timing couldn't be worse, announcing this unwelcome appointment less than a week after the cold-blooded murder of a Kansas abortion provider. Alexia Kelley is executive director of Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good, a group that adheres strictly to church doctrine in matters of abortion and birth control.

Sarah Posner on American Prospect: Kelley is a leading proponent of "common ground" abortion reduction -- only CACG's common ground is at odds with that of Obama. While the administration favors reducing the need for abortion by reducing unintended pregnancies, Kelley has made clear that she seeks instead to reduce access to abortion... Under George W. Bush, the faith-based centers didn't play a policy role. But Obama has expanded the faith-based project to include a policy side, and one of its chief goals is to reduce the need for abortion... Obama finds himself now in the difficult position of having elevated the importance of religion to making policy, and having appointed a religious figure whose opinions on policy conflict with his."

I could go on and on with stuff I have posted, but then you would get aggravated because I have been anti Democrats who are anti-women's rights.

It's a vicious circle, grantcart.

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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #138
305. Hmmmmmm, but you don't insult now, do you?????
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #305
313. .
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
134. Rec count heading down quickly. Not surprising when women want rights
to be upheld. It will always be thought as those uppity women wanting too much.

:-)
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #134
156. How high was it . . . I came in late????
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whistler162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #134
199. YEAH ithe unrec HAS NOTHING to do with a lack luster
illogical post!
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
135. Thanks for this.
The more I read of the Family, the more my cautious optimism begins to dissipate.
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cooolandrew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
136. It's still pretty much a conservative congress not neo conservative but still there. Lots more ...
Edited on Sun Jul-12-09 10:06 PM by cooolandrew
work to do to get to the progressive ideal. The work for change is more on the peoples backs and we're slowly getting there.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #136
157. It's still a male-dominated Congress, male-dominated corporate-press, male-dominated state ...
Edited on Sun Jul-12-09 10:46 PM by defendandprotect
and local governments --

And still guys sitting atop religious hierarchies wearing skirts and satin pumps!

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GreenEyedLefty Donating Member (708 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
144. Recommended.
Reproductive rights are women's rights.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Unfortunately, birth control is prohibitively expensive for a lot of women, in some areas it is difficult if not impossible to obtain.

National health care must include free or low cost, nationally available birth control, as well as abortion.
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
146. Wish I could rec 100 times
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #146
190. if you were any kind of DUer you'd have 99 other fake accts to bump up those threads you love!!!
HA!!!! just jok'n, and I agree this post is great from one of the best...
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #190
234. LOL I'm so naive, I've never even thought that possible.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
158. DLC is poisonous if you're interested in democratic ideals --
and corporations profit when equality goes out the window.

Capitalism is based on profit by exploitation -- even of humans.



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gtar100 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
161. These 19 are not democrats, they are power leaches
There are too many politicians who could care less about party, about issues, or about government. They gravitate toward power, which ever side of the aisle it's on.

They need to be outed. They need to be branded for the low lifes that they are.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #161
168. "they are power leaches"?
You're saying they REALLY suck?
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
175. Hmmmm, Just a thought, but
if the Public Option competes against the Private Option, and the Public Option WON'T pay for abortions and the Private Option WILL - watch how quickly private insurances become pro-choice and pour millions of funds into pro-choice support.

Naw, still a bad idea. If it's a doctor-recommended procedure, insurance should pay for it. Period.
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Captain_Nemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
187. In all due respect, you are just NOW figuring this out?
Edited on Mon Jul-13-09 01:28 AM by Captain_Nemo
I have some comments, but before I write them I have to comment on this one. If you feel that this very important and feminist post will be un recommended, maybe it's time to look at the forum you are posting to.

------

The dems were floating the "reduced Abortion" platform during the primary while candidate Obama talked male religion to people.

And then there was this from July 2008:

"Somewhere along Barack Obama's winding road through the red states, he lost me. It happened when he talked about women who are "feeling blue."

Obama says that these women should not be able to obtain a late-term abortion, because just "feeling blue" isn't the same as suffering "serious clinical mental health diseases." True enough. And totally infuriating.http://www.alternet.org/reproductivejustice/90675/

I wasn't surprised when his promise that signing FOCA was to be a priority when he became pres. Now, it's "not a priority" for him.

We will not be 'under the bus' when we are more than 17% of the congress and have more than 6 woman governors.

Women's bodies and lives should not be political wedge issues. Sadly, here in 2009 some things don't change.

Men can't do this for us. Women have to do it for themselves.
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 03:02 AM
Response to Original message
189. hey mf! wtg! great post... yep, they're trying to throw your rights as women under the bus
with us GLBTers, labor, environmentalists, etc...

I agree - the vibe is that we're a "centrist right" party anymore... and the GOP is a "hard right" party...


Does the Democratic Party WANT a battle to ensue breaking up the party because they're straying towards GOP territory and seeking out THEIR thoughts and plans on bills/rights/policy far too frequently?

:kick:
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 03:52 AM
Response to Original message
194. K&R
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 06:18 AM
Response to Original message
198. This Has Been Party Policy Since At Least 1973
When the ERA went down in flames.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 06:59 AM
Response to Original message
201. women, gays, unions. DLC is a jobs creation programs for politicos
fuck the issues, just get elected and enjoy the perks.
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
205. K & R
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happygoluckytoyou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
210. DONT PUT IT PAST THE GOP TO "BUY" THE PARTY AND CALL IT THEIR OWN..... STAY LIBERAL AND ACTIVE!!!
FACT IS WE DONT EVEN WANT THE "RIGHT" VOTING WITH US.... THEY MAKE A BETTER ENEMY
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
212. Recommend. This is a lively discussion. I can see how some might see the Democratic party
as drifting away from a strong pro-women's rights advocacy to a more negotiable position on women's rights. But I think a closer look reveals that we are very inclusive of and supportive of women and their right to equality and equal treatment in the eyes of the law. Look at the number of women in leadership roles in the party. Look at the number of women in the Obama administration. Look at the number of women in Congress and the Senate. We had two women within reach of the Presidency, for goodness sakes.

The Democratic party's "big tent" philosophy is part of the problem here. If we were monolithic in our group-think, as our Republican friends seem to be, we wouldn't be having this argument.

I'm glad that we are focusing on the party's commitment to women's rights and the role our government might play in deciding on access to medical care such as abortions and birth control.

Lots of interesting, even if differing, views on this being posted here.

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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #212
247. Why does this sound like the voice of an Apologist? You know there is no strong, direct support for
women's rights, particularly in reproductive health and privacy and that there is MUCH pandering and capitulation to the Republicans as the OP has outlined.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #247
249. Apologist? Not hardly. It's always a struggle. Two steps forward, one back. Sometimes
two back, one forward. There are people in both parties who would love to see women have fewer options for EVERYTHING. The vast majority of us Democrats and our elected representatives do not want that. We want equality. Period.

Apparently you have failed to notice the impending appointment of a woman to the Supreme Court. Or the appointment of a woman to the postion of Secretrary of Health and Human Services. Perhaps you have failed to notice that the new Surgeon General will be a woman. Maybe these women don't share all of your ideas about what equality under the law is, but I have a feeling they are going to be STRONG advocates for women's rights.

As for pandering and capitulation to the Republicans. Only in your dreams. So, wake up.

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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #249
251. Had to finish with the fucking insults, din't ya bertMAN?
Edited on Mon Jul-13-09 12:57 PM by omega minimo
"As for pandering and capitulation to the Republicans. Only in your dreams. So, wake up."

Perhaps you have not read the OP or understood what was being described there.

Perhaps you are unwilling to acknowledge:

"...there is no strong, direct support for women's rights, particularly in reproductive health and privacy."

"Strong, direct," as in language, statements and action, not appointments of females that we are to draw inferences from. Those help and yet there is more, more strong and direct support that is lacking.




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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #251
260. Calling me an Apologist isn't an insult? Appointing women to Presidential Cabinet postions
IS A VERY STRONG statement and action for women's rights.

I just don't get what you're saying. You want strong, direct support for women's rights, particularly in reproductive health and privacy, but when the President appoints women to positions where they can have strong, direct, and positive effects on women's reproductive health and privacy, you see that as lacking.

Please help me understand what I'm missing here?


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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #260
261. It depends
on what those women appointees stand for.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/4259
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #261
267. Thanks madfloridian for all you do for DU
Didn't want to call you MF :spray: :toast:
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #261
268. For some reason, I can't get to that link. I'll try again later.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #260
263. I didn't call you anything. I asked a question. It was not an accusation. I'm sorry it riled you.
Edited on Mon Jul-13-09 01:56 PM by omega minimo
"You want strong, direct support for women's rights, particularly in reproductive health and privacy, but when the President appoints women to positions where they can have strong, direct, and positive effects on women's reproductive health and privacy, you see that as lacking."

They can. That doesn't mean they will, just because they're female. Yes, the appointment is a strong statement. No, "you see that as lacking" is the kind of misstatement I don't accept. That's NOT what I said.

I said (twice, with clarification):

"...there is no strong, direct support for women's rights, particularly in reproductive health and privacy."

"Strong, direct," as in language, statements and action, not appointments of females that we are to draw inferences from. Those help and yet there is more, more strong and direct support that is lacking.


You have not acknowledged the "pandering and capitulation to the Republicans" which has occurred for decades and is described in the OP; it is relevant to this point.


When the language, statements, strong and direct support is lacking, it represents more "pandering and capitulation to the Republicans" and to DINOs.

When Obama speaks about women's rights and reproductive health issues, he is very careful NOT to make a strong, direct supportive statement or use direct language, even those basic words.

His language on reproductive health issues appeases the forces that want to remove women's rights.


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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #263
272. I took the tone of your question to be an accusation, so I apologize if I overreacted.
I think we're on the same page here and are fighting for the same cause, but there is still a long way to go, no doubt.

I was unable to link to the DU thread that Madflo suggested, so I'll try it later.

We, the Democrats who elected President Obama, have to push him to be more pro-active on the women's health issues. He has said time and again that he's trying to "reach out" to the Republicans, but that doesn't mean that he has to give away the farm. And unless there's something in that link from Madflo to convince me otherwise, I am very encouraged by the number and calibre of women he has selected for his cabinet. Of course, they are not left-wing radicals (I wish), but I think they share the same concerns we do for helping to get things done to improve women's health issues and equality in general.

This is going to be a struggle of epic proportions for us on the left to get this centrist President to do our bidding. I'm only a bit discouraged and nowhere near giving up or backing off.

It's all about making our voices heard over the din of the lobbyists and conservatives in the President's circle.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #272
274. Agreed. Well put. Thanks.
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Chorophyll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
216. K&R. nt
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Proud Liberal Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
218. I have some concerns as well
I don't see any huge, widespread tilt against women's rights by most Democrats towards the religious right and if there is, I'd be hard-pressed to figure out why because those people can't be placated by ANYBODY who has a "D" next to their name. There are clearly, however, some Democrats whose position on womens rights issues aren't what we'd like them to be. Hopefully, they will eventually become more "enlightened".

That being said, I am somewhat concerned about President Obama's statement regarding ensuring that Catholic providers should have the right to refuse treatment- I presume that this is in regards to abortion specifically but I'm worried that this could end up being a "slippery slope" to refusing to treat other issues and/or concerns that they might find "morally objectionable". This wouldn't be extremely concerning save for the fact that I read somewhere that more and more hospitals are increasingly coming under the management of Catholic organizations thus presumably making abortion and potentially other reproductive services harder to obtain.

However, I would say that I'm overall pleased so far with President Obama's elimination of the global gag rule and the Senate's possible permanent elimination of that rule entirely.

I'm pleased that his administration will be almost exclusively be funding more comprehensive sexual education and MUCH less (if any) "abstinence-only" *education*.

Plus, AFAIK, President Obama (nor anybody else I've heard of) isn't having weekly conference calls with "Christian Taliban" organizations like Bushco was.

True, President Obama certainly does support faith-based initiatives and seems to be making some appointments of individuals with ties to evangelical organizations but they mostly seem to be focused on general concerns such as anti-poverty initiatives and the like and not on anti-choice/anti-GLBT advocacy. Based on some of the comments of heads of various "Christian Taliban" organizations, they definitely seem to feel left out in the cold right now.

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
219. This started years ago. Pro-life Dems have made advances.
Not sure how unpopular this is with the electorate and Dem voters in particular, though.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #219
236. Don't you mean "anti-choice" Dems?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #236
238. Yes I did, thanks for the correction.
I referred to them by the PR wording they use, instead of the factual description.
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Rebubula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
220. Sadly...
...John Lennon nailed it back in the 70's

He said - 'Woman is the N****r of the world'
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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #220
266. John & Yoko's quote
That quote is in my signature, but I didn't want the N-word, even as you wrote it, in there thinking it would be deleted.
Perhaps I'll try and see if it disappears...
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get the red out Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
221. Beyond Reproduction
What other rights will they be content to do away with to please the Republican religious nuts after they have given away reproductive rights? After all that has been coming out about the "Family" and their control of so many lawmakers on both sides I wonder if we have a chance to hold onto freedom at all?
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
223. not necessarily
Edited on Mon Jul-13-09 09:36 AM by paulsby
"When 19 Democrats in the House sign a letter saying they will not vote for health reform that pays for abortion...they are making a medical decision based on religious views."

i support choice. but one of my best friends is an atheist, anti-choicer. his views are CERTAINLY not based on religion. he makes fun of religion more than bill maher for pete's sake. i readily agree that most anti-choice people's opposition to abortion is at least somewhat religiously based, but it does not follow that opposing funding of abortions is a decision BASED on a religious view.

i used to be anti-choice. now, i am pro-choice. my mind was changed by convincing arguments from the pro-choice side. NEITHER view is based, or was based on religion whatsoever.
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
225. Why should women be any different than the GLBT community?
Please don't get me wrong I agree with what you wrote, I'm just saying the Democratic party is not what it used to be.
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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
229. thank you truth teller
kick
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earcandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
235. Who are the 19 that suggested such an idea? They need to be replaced. They are faux Dems. Out!
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Missie56 Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #235
286. the 19
Boren-Okla., Bright-Ala., Childers-Miss., Costello-Ill., Dahlkemper-Pa., Davis-Tenn., Driehaus-Ohio, Holden-Pa., Kanjorski-Pa., Kaptur-Ohio, McIntyre-N.C., Melancon-La., Murtha-Pa., Oberstar-Minn., Ortiz-Tx., Peterson-Minn., Shuler-N.C., Stupak-Mich., Taylor-Miss.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
240. People don't even recognize sexism when they see it. nt
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
242. I Don't See How Anyone Could Be Surprised
This is, after all, the same party that did nothing to denounce Tim Wise over "Ladies, your racism is showing."
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crim son Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
243. I'm one of the dems who doesn't believe the public option should be
scrapped because it doesn't pay for abortions. A pro-choice, uninsured woman, I have to acknowledge that taking a step in the right direction w/respect to healthcare, is better than taking no step at all. The status quo is unacceptable: right now I'd have to pay for not only my own abortion but my own heart surgery. We will not give up the fight for womens' reproductive rights, but others' rights are no less critical. IMHO.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
245. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
246. Most of our congressional Dems
have no spines.
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kevsters Donating Member (109 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
250. Hannity adds fuel to this, already raging, fire
We should all be ready for some fireworks. If not from Congress, certainly from the misogynistic right.

Here is a perfect example of women haters starting the cannon fodder.

http://progressnotcongress.org/?p=2144
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
254. Not only women's rights, but also gay rights are becoming expendable. n/t
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #254
257. Yes, you are exactly right.
.
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #254
271. When were gay rights ever *not* expendable?
:eyes:
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PretzelWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
255. thank you people. Keep these awesome threads coming
this is what DU was all about before. Concentrating our efforts on fighting, fighting, fighting the real enemies of progress.
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #255
262. hear hear! n/t
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pecwae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
264. Highly recommended. nt
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bluestateboomer Donating Member (313 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
278. k&r
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tooeyeten Donating Member (441 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
279. religion and politics
more dangerous and deadly than driving drunk.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
280. this view is not "prevalent"
nonsense thread, as usual.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #280
285. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #285
306. ooh, tough guy
Edited on Mon Jul-13-09 11:01 PM by paulk
LOL

maybe you and the rest of DU should buy a dictionary

or come to the realization that the sort of hyperbole practiced by the OP actually makes you look foolish...
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
284. welcome to the black of the bus
i am still pissed about lani gunier and anita hill and affirmative action.
oh...and republicans are much worse. i have to add that to avoid the inevitable flames.
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sallylou666 Donating Member (135 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
287. K&R
Thanks to those of you who shared your fresh manly wisdom with us shrill, humorless, uppity women. This tread is a real gem--a shining example of sexism.

Women are human. Reproductive rights are human rights. 'Nuff said.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
290. The underside of the bus is looking like everyone but the 1% elite. nt
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demigoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
291. Nooo oo ooo oooooo oooo oooooo ooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


How long are women going to be second class citizens???
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
307. 198 votes
"Unrec" didn't even slow this one down. :thumbsup:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-14-09 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #307
312. Heh heh
It sure as heck tried, though.

:hi:
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secondwind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-14-09 06:56 AM
Response to Original message
309. this is absolutely unacceptable!!! Yet Viagra is covered as prescription "medicine".........give me


A HUGE F****NG BREAK!!! ENOUGH ALREADY!

Women have had to fight insurance companies for mammograms . Woman have had to fight for more than just a few hours in a hospital AFTER GIVING BIRTH also.

But if a man has erectile dysfunction? No problem! (no offense guys, I'm a big fan of "V"......just trying to make a point here!)
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-14-09 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #309
310. "Viagra is covered as prescription "medicine"
o.O
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