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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-22-09 03:46 PM
Original message
Myths From The Left About the current HR 3200
Edited on Wed Jul-22-09 04:02 PM by berni_mccoy
I've read some pretty bold claims about HR 3200 here and on other liberal sites, mainly from individuals who claim single-payer or nothing. Here are some of the more common and very misguided claims about the bill.

Myth 1: It protects private insurance.
Reality: It allows private insurance to compete with a strong public option. A quick read of the bill verifies this.

Myth 2: It is too expensive for people to afford.
Reality: The premiums are scaled down to 0% of income for those who can't afford it. And to protect people from regional costs of living differences, it applies local changes to those rates and allows the states to assist.
Incomes under 133% of the poverty level pay nothing. From the bill directly, we have the following scale:

income levels as a percentage of poverty:
133% through 150% pay 1.5% - 3% of income
150% through 200% pay 3% - 5% of income
200% through 250% pay 5% - 7% of income
250% through 300% pay 7% - 9% of income
300% through 350% pay 9% - 10% of income
350% through 400% pay 10% -11% of income


Myth 3: We'll never have single payer if this plan goes through.
Reality: This plan allows Americans to decide if they want single payer. If the majority of people and employers opt for the public option (and it can be foreseen that they will unless private insurance companies drop their rates), then the public option will effectively be single payer. If private insurance companies lower their premiums in order to survive and compete, then the bill will have succeeded in rate control via market competition. If private insurance companies fail, then we will be left with a single payer system.

Myth 4: There is no need to rush this through; we need to get this plan right.
Reality: More than 1300 Americans are dying each month because they can't afford healthcare. The need for urgency on passing this bill *does* exist. And the plan can be modified after it's put into effect. If something isn't working, we'll change it. What have we got to lose by trying? Thousands of American lives will be saved. The longer we wait, the more will die.
(the 1300 number is based on a study done by the Institute of Medicine in 2002 and reported in USA Today: http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/healthcare/2002-05-22-insurance-deaths.htm

Myth 5: Not everyone can participate.
Reality: Every person in the U.S. can participate. If you have a plan via your employer, your employer can decide if they want to switch the plan over to the Public Option or if they want to continue to pay the private insurance company their negotiated premiums. Either way employees who are covered will remain covered by some plan. Most people look at a company's benefits packages when they consider taking a job with that company. If your employer doesn't provide coverage, you can go to the public option.

Myth 6: Progressive lawmakers won't support it.
Reality: Even the most progressive are beginning to support it, including Dennis Kucinich. He did not originally like the bill, but he successfully attached an amendment that allows states to override and provide a single payer option if they chose. Rep. Kucinich and other progressive lawmakers are not so insistent or short sighted to realize that this bill, while not perfect, is not bad and will accomplish much good.


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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-22-09 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. Do ou ave a link or links for this? I'd like to use it.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-22-09 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. The information is in the bill itself; the link on mortality due to healthcare affordability is
provided.
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-22-09 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. so tell me about premiums
are they different for different people or is there a flat adult premium? WHAT IF someone with stage 4 cancer is charged $2000/month premium and doesn't pay? Does that mean they don't get treatment? We do know that person gets fined. Is the fine a percentage of the premium they didn't pay? Do you seize their accounts and throw them in jail for not paying their fines?

Does this mean that employers who switch you to the public option will still have legal access to your medical records?

I get that this is positive change. I really wish some of the sticky details are worked out first, especially enforcement, bridges, donut holes and all the other crap that keeps old folks and pharmacists befuddled and confused and under treated with their public options.

What about pharma pricing? Is the government going to negotiate with big pharma or institute pricing controls? By controls I mean, if it costs you 8 billion dollars to develop and market a new statin, do you divide 8 billion dollars into four years of sales (plus 100% production markup against projected sales) to achieve your price per unit? Because that's what they do now, and the U.S. government happily underwrites it without question, because that's who's paying to re-elect them.

We do need to do the right thing, but the sense of urgency is false. A good and irrefutable idea sells itself. This one has huge gaping holes, and no it's not good enough to "fix 'em" later. If you don't have the time to do it now you'll have even less time to do it later. If we're avoiding talking about it now, it's because we don't plan on talking about it later.



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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-22-09 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Excellent
If we're avoiding talking about it now, it's because we don't plan on talking about it later.

Worse would be if they DO plan on talking about it later: to remind us what a failure round one was and why round two isn't viable as a result
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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-22-09 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
4. I'm confused about myth 1
Myth 1: It protects private insurance.
Reality: It allows private insurance to compete with a strong public option. A quick read of the bill verifies this.


If private insurance is allowed to "compete" isn't that by definition protecting private insurance? If not, wouldn't the focus be on creating the best public plan possible, insurers be damned?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-22-09 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I didn't read it that way.
Edited on Wed Jul-22-09 04:38 PM by redqueen
I read it (being allowed to compete) as meaning they won't be forced to become non-profit organizations in a single-payer system.

:shrug:
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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-22-09 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. But if they were forced out of the for-profit business we would have a better system
ergo, the goal here is not creating the best possible system. And what motive is there for that other than pandering for (ie protecting) the industry?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-22-09 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. The other motive is to get it passed, I thought.
Since huge numbers of voters have been brainwashed by decades of anti-single-payer propaganda, lawmakers have cover for their catering to fatcat execs and their lobbyists.

It'd be nice if more people would bother to educate themselves, so we could have a system like France's... alas.
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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-22-09 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. So then myth1 is actually Truth1
that was sole concern in asking
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-22-09 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I'd say it's more like "Distortion 1". (nt)
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-22-09 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
6. The myth busting is full of myths.
Myth re Myth 1: The competition is not complete enough because access to the public plan is limited, particularly by employer choice to allow participation.

Myth re Myth 2: The expense is in the copays and deductibles that are allowed.

No myth re Myth 3 -- this can put us onto the long road to single-payer, and its non-passage would not bring single-payer any closer.

No myth re Myth 4 -- and the important part of the actual myth is that delay is what the GOP and conservatives want because that is their only hope of derailing all health coverage reform.

Myth re Myth 5: participation is not at the individual's choice, rather at the employer's. If my employer does not opt to offer the public plan, I have no choice in the matter.

No myth re Myth 6: Progressive lawmakers will need to support what emerges, no matter how horrible, because passing nothing would be worse.

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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-22-09 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
10. I disagree with several of your assertions....
Myth 1: It protects private insurance.
Reality: It allows private insurance to compete with a strong public option. A quick read of the bill verifies this.


This is just parsing the same circumstance from different directions, along the lines of whether the glass is half full or half empty. HR 3200 does indeed protect private insurance companies from the single most devastating-to-their-business-model reform: single payer universal health care that makes private insurance unnecessary.

Recall that the original rationale for insurance-- whether auto, home, or health-- was to buffer individuals from the risk of expensive circumstances by pooling the risk across wide segments of the population. That model is only partly successful for health insurance because just about EVERYONE eventually gets sick or injured. That still allows for sufficient risk management as long as the pool is large enough and as long as the primary objective is to provide services to insurance holders. Now, however, the primary mission of most insurance companies is to enrich their stockholders and executives-- a mission that is largely incompatible with the original objective of managing risks for subscribers-- the only way to maximize profits is to minimize risk, and the best way to do that is to withhold coverage, exclude subscribers, raise costs for services, and so on.

Allowing private insurance companies to "compete with a strong public option" is neoliberal speak for "hobbling the public option so that it will not encroach egregiously into the profits of private companies." Since the behavior of those very private insurance companies is largely responsible for the current health care crisis, I don't especially feel the need to keep them in business by protecting them from the best health care delivery model anyone has yet proposed.

Myth 2: It is too expensive for people to afford.
Reality: The premiums are scaled down to 0% of income for those who can't afford it. And to protect people from regional costs of living differences, it applies local changes to those rates and allows the states to assist.
Incomes under 133% of the poverty level pay nothing. From the bill directly, we have the following scale...


Single payer universal health care will SAVE us billions of dollars annually, and the savings can be used to fund the program entirely. There is absolutely no reason for ANYONE to pay out of pocket for basic health care services in this country. Many of us will likely lose our employer provided insurance benefits if a public option insurance plan is available that we can buy instead-- and many of us will be financially WORSE off for it. I don't have an additional 10 or 11 percent of disposable monthly income to buy government mandated health insurance-- but that will be my only real choice if my employer shifts that burden to me.

For considerably less money I could get free or nearly free health care under a single payer system. THAT'S the comparison that's meaningful to me, not how the proposed HR3200 public option compares to the robber baron private insurance costs.

Myth 3: We'll never have single payer if this plan goes through.
Reality: This plan allows Americans to decide if they want single payer. If the majority of people and employers opt for the public option (and it can be foreseen that they will unless private insurance companies drop their rates), then the public option will effectively be single payer. If private insurance companies lower their premiums in order to survive and compete, then the bill will have succeeded in rate control via market competition. If private insurance companies fail, then we will be left with a single payer system.


No, we'll be left with a government administered health insurance plan modeled after the current private insurance business-- one that is intentionally structured to allow "competition" in the current dysfunctional marketplace. Such competition can only occur if the public option is not as good as simple, straightforward single payer universal health care. The fact that it has a price tag independent of taxes is reason enough to reject it. Real single payer makes this whole discussion unnecessary. It's just there, a universal safety net for all Americans, regardless of social class or ability to pay.

More important, though, is that this is an historic opportunity. I simply cannot think of any good reason not to use it to establish the best health care reforms we can-- reforms that we envision lasting for the next several generations, at least. I do not share your apparent faith in politicians to revisit the issue soon if it can be improved, especially since we know how to improve it NOW and have the opportunity. Why not do it right the first time?

Myth 5: Not everyone can participate.
Reality: Every person in the U.S. can participate. If you have a plan via your employer, your employer can decide if they want to switch the plan over to the Public Option or if they want to continue to pay the private insurance company their negotiated premiums. Either way employees who are covered will remain covered by some plan. Most people look at a company's benefits packages when they consider taking a job with that company. If your employer doesn't provide coverage, you can go to the public option.


Cost is the crux of this issue. If employers continue to provide medical insurance, we're still doing essentially what we're doing now, but with one more player in the mix. The current model is not sustainable for many businesses, and they want OUT of the insurance provision business. Free or nearly free single payer universal health care makes this whole issue moot. Businesses do not need to provide insurance at all under that model, and employees will not see their health care costs raised as the burden of paying for health insurance is transferred to them. Indeed, under single payer, the costs for EVERYONE would decline precipitously.


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crickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-22-09 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Thank you! -nt
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-22-09 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Thank you!
I can't afford to get mandated health insurance. I don't want to get fined for not being able to do so.
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