More about the pregnant Florida woman forced to remain in hospital...denied 2nd opinion.

[madfloridian]

Big kudos to ccharles000 for posting this here last night. It needs attention desperately, and it is not getting enough of it.

Here is the DU post by ccharles000.

ACLU Asks Florida Court To Protect The Rights Of Pregnant Women To Refuse Medical Care

This is a very heavy-handed treatment of a woman who is forced to remain in the hospital putting the fetus first above the mother and her other children. Court-ordered hospital detention of a pregnant woman. She asked for a 2nd opinion, her doctor took it to court and got a forced hospital stay.

Tallahassee, FL – The American Civil Liberties Union and the ACLU of Florida today filed a friend-of-the-court brief opposing the state's decision to force a pregnant woman to remain hospitalized against her will.

"Women do not give up their right to determine the course of their own medical care when they become pregnant," said Diana Kasdan, a staff attorney with the ACLU Reproductive Freedom Project. "Faced with similar cases, courts throughout the country have made clear that pregnant women have a right to make decisions about their own health, including refusing medical care."

In March 2009, the Circuit Court of Leon County ordered Samantha Burton – a mother of two suffering from pregnancy complications – to be indefinitely confined to Tallahassee Memorial Hospital and forced to undergo any and all medical treatments deemed necessary to save her fetus. After three days of state-compelled hospitalization, Ms. Burton suffered fetal demise and was released from the hospital.

"We should all be alarmed by Florida's wholly unwarranted intervention in Samantha Burton's care," said Randall Marshall, Legal Director of the ACLU of Florida. "Not only is it unconstitutional for the state to override a pregnant woman's decision to refuse medical treatment, but the medical community, including the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, the American Medical Women's Association, and the American Medical Association, strongly advises against it."

There is an excellent diary at Daily Kos about this issue from a couple of days ago. It had little attention as well.

Who Gets to Make Medical Decisions for Pregnant Women?

By Dahlia Ward, State Strategist, ACLU Reproductive Freedom Project

Imagine this — you're the busy mother of two small kids with another one on the way. This pregnancy has been fraught with complications. During a medical exam, your doctor orders bed rest for the remainder of your pregnancy. You explain that you can't possibly stay in bed for four months with two small children (!). The doctor insists. You say you want to get a second opinion. The doctor refuses and goes to court and gets a court order mandating your confinement in the hospital for the remainder of your pregnancy.

Sound crazy? Well something along these lines happened to Samantha Burton, a mother of two in Florida who was 25 weeks pregnant when she was hospitalized against her will due to pregnancy complications. When she requested a transfer to another hospital so she could get a second opinion, the state refused because it was not in the fetus' "best interests at the time." After three days in state-mandated confinement, Ms. Burton lost the baby. The ACLU Reproductive Freedom Project and the ACLU of Florida filed a friend-of-the-court brief in support of Burton earlier this week.

Being pregnant does not mean that you lose the basic right to make decisions about your own health care. In a free society, each of us has the liberty to conduct our lives according to what we believe is best for ourselves and our families. Though we may disagree with the health decisions of some, we do not force people into medical care, or in the case of Burton, into confinement in a hospital.

Don't get me wrong — of course I want pregnant women to follow their doctor's advice. But I do not think that pregnant women should be confined against their will if they are unwilling or unable to do so. If we allow the government to confine a pregnant woman for not following orders to remain in bed, what's next? Will we forcibly hospitalize pregnant women for having a glass of wine with dinner? Or eating too much fast food? What if they don't take their prenatal vitamins? Or miss their doctor's appointments? What if a pregnant woman refuses a cesarean section? While we each may have strong opinions about such behaviors, our government cannot interfere in a woman's personal private medical decisions. Allowing the government to make medical decisions for pregnant women means that literally every decision and every activity a pregnant woman engages in could be regulated by the state. And certainly the possibility of state-mandated hospitalization for those who have engaged in "unhealthy behaviors" would deter some women from seeking any prenatal care for fear of being punished. In that situation, everybody loses.

A cesarean was performed after 3 days that showed the death of the fetus, and she could leave the hospital. It is unclear from the ACLU post at Daily Kos if the cesarean were performed against her will, but I found a comment about it by the poster.

Samantha Burton initially went to the hospital voluntarily because she was having complications. They were able to hold her in the hospital against her will because Florida law, like the law of many other states, allows the government to attempt to show that it has a compelling interest sufficient to override an individual’s decisions about his or her medical care. Unfortunately, laws like this have been used here, and in other states, to attempt to control pregnant women’s decisions about their medical care, including attempts (sometimes successful) to require women to have cesarean sections against their will.

—Dahlia Ward

Because freedom can't protect itself.

by ACLU on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 01:16:05 PM EDT

From the ACLU website

Today's case is Burton v. Florida, No. ID09-1958. Lawyers on the ACLU's friend-of-the-court brief include Kasdan of the ACLU Reproductive Freedom Project; and Marshall of the ACLU of Florida. The ACLU's friend-of-the-court brief can be found at: www.aclu.org/reproductiverights/pregnancy/40568lgl20090731.html

Thanks to ccharles000 for posting about this. It needs attention.

Never forget how strong the right wing movement is to control the rights of women. Don't forget the staunchly pro-life Democrat who was kicked out of Democrats for life for supporting birth control.

Just for supporting birth control. Imagine what Kristen Day would do if she heard of someone in their group getting wobbly on abortion.

Tim Ryan said he tried to convince officials with Democrats For Life of America, which he referred to Monday as a "fringe group," that the use of contraception is needed as part of any plan to reduce unintended pregnancies but that failed.

Kristen Day, Democrats For Life's executive director, was ready to move on. "DFLA gave Congressman Ryan ample opportunities to prove he's committed to protecting life, but he has turned his back on the community at every turn.

These groups are gaining much power, even in our Democratic party.

It is a slippery slope when courts start getting involved in the lives of pregnant women.

[Sanity Claws]

1. Unbelievable!

That poor woman. I'd like to see some protests against that doctor. Have his name publicized and have women avoid him like the plague.

[Chulanowa]

16. No, perfectly believable

This is what the "pro life" movement is. A woman has no rights once she's pregnant. NONE. That's what these people are after. From there it's easy to say no woman who can become pregnant has rights. And that women who can't, well, they're not really women, are they?

It's simply a method of backsliding to the 18th century.

[drmeow]

47. I'd go further

I think they would like any woman who is in her "childbearing years" to have not rights. As far as they are concerned, if you have a functioning womb, that DEFINES you - period.

[BanzaiBonnie]

2. And heaven forbid what if a woman wants to have a home birth

This is outrageous.

If the doc was really concerned, why didn't he arrange a mother's helper in to assist her. Oh, I forgot, that's what they have in socialist countries.

[handmade34]

34. all of my children were born at home

I would have gone ballistic if that had happened to me...

note: my first born was delivered(1975) by a Doctor in Okemos Michigan who was sympathetic to those of us wanting a more personal experience - her license was taken away because of it.
the rest of my children were born in Vermont and I found a super midwife and all experiences were wonderful

[jhain]

56. I had two homebirths

Far superior medical care to my hospital births.

[BanzaiBonnie]

78. My first two were hospital births

Next two were home births with midwives. Far superior experience.

AND all five of my grandchildren have been born at home with the same midwives!

[femrap]

3. She should sue the dr.

and the hospital. It's too bad our society has come to this.

[madfloridian]

4. So glad to see the ACLU working on this.

I think I need to donate again. Few are standing up for women's rights.

[NashVegas]

30. I'd Be Screaming For Their Arrest

on unlawful restraint charges.

[GodlyDemocrat]

36. Agreed, the judge may be immune but the dr. and hospital are not

[madfloridian]

45. Yes, she was held against her will for being pregnant.

A tragedy.

[tblue37]

5. Many years ago--in the 1970s, I believe--

Ms. magazine ran a futuristic horror story in which pregnant women were continuously monitored to ensure the well-being of their fetuses, and a woman was arrested confined against her will because she didn't follow to the letter a doctor's advice for maximum benefit to her fetus.

At the time, many people thought such extreme speculation was so bizarre and ridiculous that it made our side look like silly worry warts.

Well, suuuurprise, suuuurprise! </Gomer Pyle>

[madfloridian]

6. Not so futuristic anymore.

Tragically.

[suffragette]

67. I remember that short story and it's the 1st thing I thought of when

reading this.

Horrible that life is now imitating art in this case.

[noiretextatique]

7. i am waiting for the fetus fetishists who support forced hospitalization

:grr: bring it on :grr: fucking outrageous :grr:

[Better Today]

8. I don't have to imagine, being pregnant and a mother of two young ones...

My third pregnancy, unplanned and unwanted, but oh well. I was married, we were financially well off (he still is, I didn't fight the divorce as I should have, 'nother story, back on topic...) so I wasn't in the mind of having an abortion. At about 12 weeks, I was doing some pretty hefty yard work and started bleeding. Called and went to the doctor, choices for the area were either a catholic hospital or a 7th day adventist hospital, my doctor was part of the 7th day adventists hospital.

After an ultrasound he told me the fetus has slipped and wasn't properly embedded in the placenta. I saw it and in fact it was nearly out of the uterus altogether. He tried to insist that I stay at hospital and basically spend the time till delivery on my back. Now my hubby at the time traveled extensively, so I couldn't possibly see this as an option. No one to care for the two I already had, and (lucky for me) no one to bring me anything for the hospital stay.

I left to go get my things and never went back. Miscarried in the bathroom a day later. Then I went back in for a D&C and the doc was really pissed off. One because I didn't return, but also because I didn't fish the fetus out of the toilet to bring to him. It was just surreal all the way around.

Within a year a had a full hysterectomy. It was quite unnerving and angering to have to be exposed to the decisions and judgments (personal primarily) of this doctor and his religious affiliation. Had I not had some mildly similar issues with my first born post birth at the catholic hospital, I wouldn't have thought to lie and not come back, I would've refused and perhaps been in the same position as this woman.

[madfloridian]

15. Thanks for sharing your story.

So many people don't realize all the implications of making laws that rule women's lives and health care.

[Chemisse]

20. That is very disturbing

Especially because it was only 12 weeks, so you were still within your rights to abort, if you had wanted to.

Can you imagine being confined against your will for 6 months?!

I read somewhere that bed rest is not really all that helpful in preventing miscarriage anyway.

[Better Today]

26. The most angering part of the whole thing was his accusations regarding

the fact that I was even doing any yardwork. I had done all my normal activities with my two other children to no harm, but someone, gardening while pregnant suddenly made evil.

[Chemisse]

28. That is absurd.

I thought I was going to miscarry once at somewhere around 3 months. I got mad (an odd response, I know) and started doing all sorts of yard work, carrying rocks, etc. I thought, dammit if I am going to lose the baby let's just get it over with (imagine if I'd had Dr. Big Brother looking over my shoulder - I would have been jailed!).

Anyway, none of it made any difference; I carried her to term and had a healthy child.

I hope you suffered not the slightest pang of guilt when you lost the baby. Nature will have its way no matter what we do.

[valerief]

42. What a grotesque doctor. Fetus fetishist indeed. You did the right thing, of course. Good for you. n

[Better Today]

49. He said it was required for research. I said that if he had told me that

and was prepared to pay an appropriate fee for it as a research supply, I would've fished it out of the toilet,. . . he didn't think that was an appropriate answer.

[katkat]

62. required for research?

Required for research? What the F? Since when do they get to do research without consent? Oh, wait, you're just the mother, you have no rights, I forgot.

Am I furious.

I wonder if they took her clothes away. I am envisioning sneaking down some back stairs.

[TexasObserver]

9. Recommend

[charlie]

10. Kick

Even if you're not especially interested in women's rights issues, the fact that this court manufactured a "compelling state interest" of no legal foundation, to allow kidnapping and forced medical procedures, should scare you.

[madfloridian]

12. "compelling state interest"

Yes, it scares me very much.

[mnhtnbb]

11. The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood. Chilling.

A place where giving birth is considered woman's religious and moral duty--and it is enforced.

Here it is in FL.

[reflection]

13. k/r!

[Raven]

14. Boy! There's an example of a doctor getting between me and my life and liberty!

[AnnieBW]

17. Who paid for her forced hospitalization?

Did the State of Florida pay for it, since they were forcing her to be confined in a hospital? Or did her health insurance pay for it?

This is appalling.

[madfloridian]

18. I haven't found that answered in the articles yet.

There's not much online about it, little in the news, some in the blogs.

It's a very good question.

[jmowreader]

80. I'm sure she'll be required to

[Vidar]

19. K&R

[CrispyQ]

21. This thread should be at the top of the Greatest.

k&r

[madfloridian]

22. Nice thought, but...

there are many here who really not pro-choice. Many here think only some areas of women's lives are hers to make decisions about. They would prefer we sit down and make it easier to get along with the right wing.

I am surprised it got many recs at all considering.

Nice thought, though.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

23. Florida is so freaking strange.

[1monster]

24. And I'll bet they send her the bill for the forced hospital stay also. Since she was

confined under court order, the county should pay the bills.

[Solly Mack]

25. K&R

I won't type what I'm thinking about high-handed, women hating pieces of petrified shit

[riderinthestorm]

27. I'm outraged. Thanks for posting this. K and R.

[Liberal_in_LA]

29. OMG! Thanks for posting this

[undeterred]

31. They committed battery if they did a c-section

without her consent.

[madfloridian]

32. Still trying to figure out if it was against her will.

She probably had little will left after the court and doctor got through with her.

[handmade34]

35. thanks for sticking with this

it can be overwhelming to fight against irrational, demeaning policy. I am old enough to live at a time when abortions were illegal and found myself pregnant, I have had children (born at home), I have had a legal abortion and I have used pennyroyal to abort. This issue scares me and should everyone (even men)

[madfloridian]

37. I remember that time as well.

Friends would leave high school, disappear for months, tell vague stories. In two instances I remember their parents had babies appear without much warning. No one ever questioned it cause everyone sort of knew.

[charlie]

48. FWIW

The ACLU's amicus filing includes this line:

...and to submit, against her will, to any and all medical treatments, restrictions to bed rest, and other interventions, including cesarean section delivery, that in the words of the court, "the unborn child's attending physician," deemed
necessary to "preserve the life and health of Samantha Burton’s unborn child."

So, it seems she was ordered to submit, whether she ultimately agreed to it or not. That's freaking outrageous.

Also, note the court's use of "unborn child" instead of "fetus." She got gangpiled by ideologues. I'd still really like to know the names of these lowlifes.

[Hepburn]

54. So....the fetus has Constitutional Rights????

Seems that is what the idiot Fla Ct found: Mother has NONE, but the Fetus's doc has the right to dictate what the Mom does so that the fetus is protected. What the hell is being done to protect the mother???? All this medical bullshit like a C-section does have risks involved for her!!!

Out-fucking-rageous! :mad:

[charlie]

64. It seems so, they just invented them

Establishing precedent for a fetus' personhood certainly looks like what they're up to. Probably using the third trimester argument, where the state uses its authority to forbid abortions, to assert full guardianship, so a woman's sovereignty is subordinate to the state. It's judicial activism run clean off the leash.

This is the sort of all-too-common authoritarian shit that needs to be rubbed in the faces of conservadroids who squall about "legislating from the bench" and "jack-booted thuggery" -- here it is assholes, Orwellian as all fuck. What are you gonna do about it?

[madfloridian]

58. "note the court's use of "unborn child" instead of "fetus." Good catch.

They are succeeding so well in their quest to make the fetus's well being superior to the rest of the family.

And we are letting them do it without speaking out.

[charlie]

69. It's a blaring tell, isn't it?

There's nothing more precisely measured and parsed than legal language. It's sneaky and it's also futile. The Florida constitution provides more, and more explicitly defined, protections for individual sovereignty than the federal constitution. The FL Supreme Court will rule against them and they know it. They just don't care.

[santamargarita]

33. Is Florida really that fucked up?

:argh:

[madfloridian]

39. Quite simply, yes, it is.

But other states are messed up on this as well.

Women's rights are now expendable, and the ACLU deserves kudos for their support of this woman.

[Aragorn]

38. couple of questions

which may not come into public view due to the patient's privacy - and yes I know that is ludicrous here. I wonder if this is not malpractice now since the patient died. One aspect of involuntary admission is that treatment will help. We don't know from this what was wrong - but we do no her admission did not fix it. It is not legally "imprisonment" if it was under court order and not just to make a buck. As I recall the cases (mostly in Texas) where psychiatric hospitals committed people until their insurance ran out were all fraud but not imprisonment anyway. I commend the ACLU - I am a member and advise all of you to join too. With more mebers and support they have shown they will take on issues other groups only go to forums and discuss.

This almost has to be fraud, imprisonment, or malpractice. Maybe even 2 out of 3.

[madfloridian]

74. Interesting points....

almost like she was Baker Acted for the good of the fetus but against her will.

[madfloridian]

40. Just did another news and blog search. There is almost no coverage.

This is a vital issue, and there is almost no mention.

[valerief]

43. I'd be surprised if there was reasonable coverage. nt

[madfloridian]

46. I would also.

It's a really bad thing for Florida to do.

[Ilsa]

41. Did the doctor's order also require the insurance to pay for childcare

for her kids at home? Did they let the kids stay up at the hospital with her so they could catch germs and did the insurance company require the nurses to take care of them?

C-Sections should never be against a woman's will unless there is a clearly established mental-health issue.

[madfloridian]

44. Probably no to all of your questions.

I am still trying to figure if the c-section were done against her will....or if she thought she had no will left.

[bertman]

50. Don't expect the corporate media conglomerate to give this any air time, they're too busy

reporting on how the wingnuts are exercising their "freedom to demonstrate against socialized medicine".

I'll be sending another donation to the ACLU. This is beyond outrageous.

Thanks to Charles000 and Madfloridian for bringing this to our attention.

Rec and kicked.

[madfloridian]

79. Correct, giving the screaming crowds airtime is their priority.

:hi:

[Buzz Clik]

51. This is just awful, but it's the natural offspring of the attitude that ...

... seeking medical care for sick or injured children is mandatory and not optional. We frequently have threads at DU applauding law enforcement for arresting and the courts for convicting faith healers who don't seek medical help for ill children. Yes, I see the difference, but it's a slippery slope when you start cramming health care down the throats of people who don't want it.

[Bandit]

52. The tea baggers should be outraged

Government takeover of her health care..

[madmom]

53. I was going to make a similar comment..isn't this government getting involved in our health care?

[jmowreader]

81. No, the teabaggers are dancing in the streets because it's a fetus case

Assume the teabagger movement is full of Neal Horsley "execute abortion doctors" syncophants.

[Kalyke]

55. Do they have her restrained?

If not, she should just get up and walk out.

I would.


This is fucking outrageous!!!!

[madfloridian]

57. It was ordered by a judge.

She most likely could have been arrested for leaving.

[katkat]

65. I still would have left n/t

[cleverusername]

59. Not surprised

This is disturbing but not surprising. The crazed zealots don't consider women human. Why give a woman the right to make health decisions when she's only a brood mare for the state? It won't end with getting rid of birth control and abortions. They want to control women.

[pokercat999]

60. I hope malpractice lawyers are lined up around the block

waiting to take her multi-million dollar case. Could it be that the stress of forced hospitalization killed the fetus?

Wish I was the judge in that case.

[Th1onein]

61. I'm anti-choice/pro-life, but even I am on the fence about this one.

This is going a little too far, I think.

[madfloridian]

63. I am pro-life and pro-choice. I believe in life and choice.

I see serious consequences of letting religion cross over and take over the medical choices of women.

I strongly believe in life and choice.

This is the result of going too far, and a Florida judge and Florida doctor crossed the line.

[solstice]

66. I consider this terrorism against women.

[katkat]

68. Doctor

I went to the hospital website, and these are the male obgyns on staff:

Alex D. Brickler, M.D.
Alex Davenport, M.D.
David Jerry Dixon, D.O.
Kenneth J. McAlpine, M.D.
Alfredo Nova, M.D.
David R. O'Bryan, M.D.

[suffragette]

70. Looks like Tallahassee Memorial has done something similar before

to someone named Laura Pemberton.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pemberton_v._Tallahassee_Memorial_Regional_Center

And the courts in that district have been backing them up.

Bravo to the ACLU for action to stop this.

[madfloridian]

71. Heading to read that now. Very interesting.

:hi:

[grahamhgreen]

72. So the people who need the hospital can't get in and the ones who don't want it are forced to go! nt

[madfloridian]

73. Excellent point.

Had not looked at it that way.

[carlyhippy]

75. what in the world is being put in the water in Florida?!

Nearly every time something bizarre happens, it occurs in Florida.

[Odin2005]

76. The misogyny REEKS.

This is a fucking outrage! :grr:

[rucky]

77. It's The Handmaid's Tale

[dkf]

82. I bet if she had left and obviously the baby would have died anyway,

they would have charged her with murder.

She's probably lucky she stayed or this would still be a nightmare for her.

[midnight]

83. Can they,the courts, get involved in restoring the constitution?