Help with bible passages quote at Teddy's service, please.

[OneGrassRoot]

Would you please post passages that strike you as being the true Christian message....that we can pass along to hypocritical Christians?

I'm not familiar with the bible...but I'm surrounded by thumper types.

Thanks very much. :)

[Doremus]

1. Paraphrasing because I'm not religious either: What you do to the least of us you also do to me.

Suppose Dimson heard it and if so, understand its meaning?

[spanone]

2. well, they're in a church full of gold, marble and expensive robes, must be religious

[baldguy]

8. Which serves Roxbury - a community poor, destitute & disenfranchised.

There's a reason it's called the Mission Church. It's wealth isn't to be found within its walls.

http://www.themissionchurchboston.com/

[SpiralHawk]

22. Ahh, the 'missions' of the world are not quite so benign or wondrous

Ask any Native American...and be prepared to hear a tale of sound and fury and deep, deep woe...

[baldguy]

25. Well, that's the difference between the Irish Church and the Spanish Church.

The Irish didn't make it a habit of trying to convert or kill non-believers in their empire - they didn't have one. Their neighboring Protestants were good enough to kill - and closer too.

The Church's problems stem from it's dogma, not it's wealth.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

3. Matthew 25:31.

The core of true Christianity, completely opposite of the mean, crazy shit the "Christian" Right likes to spew.

[baldguy]

4. Matthew 25:31-46

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/25.html

25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

This is really the basis of the Christian faith.

[Tanuki]

You'll find the text and today's entire Mass program here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6418090

[Posteritatis]

27. I like that the reverends are referred to as "celebrants" in that. (nt)

[KittyWampus]

29. I hadn't caught that, and it is nice to ruminate about. Will have to dive into word meaning of

celebrant.

[Posteritatis]

31. Exactly what it sounds like - folks involved in a celebration. (nt)

[Catshrink]

5. Here's the program....

Another DUer found it!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6418090

[elocs]

6. Yes, Matthew 25:

34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'
37
Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'
40
And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41
17 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42
For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43
a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'
44
18 Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'
45
He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'

[TygrBright]

7. Matthew, Chapter 25, v 34-40

"Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O Blessed of my Father, enter into the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was in prison and you came to me.'

Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'

And the King will answer them: 'Truly, I say this to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'"

I rather think that about sums it up.

Biblically,
Bright

[hedgehog]

9. You would do well to go out and get a bible and

and find out what the bible thumpers have been keeping from you. The Good News Bible is a translation using vernacular English. Other recent translations will use a larger vocabulary. Garry Wills' books, What Jesus meant, What the Gospels meant and what Paul Meant are good, readable, short introductions. (Don't confuse Garry Wills with George Wills. It took me years to realize they were two separate people and I was very confused)

First Reading:
Curran Raclin, the Senator’s stepson
Old Testament
The Book of Wisdom 3:1-9

The Book of Wisdom
Chapter 3

1
1 But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and no torment shall touch them.
2
They seemed, in the view of the foolish, to be dead; and their passing away was thought an affliction
3
and their going forth from us, utter destruction. But they are in peace.
4
For if before men, indeed, they be punished, yet is their hope full of immortality;
5
Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself.
6
2 As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself.
7
3 In the time of their visitation they shall shine, and shall dart about as sparks through stubble;
8
They shall judge nations and rule over peoples, and the LORD shall be their King forever.
9
Those who trust in him shall understand truth, and the faithful shall abide with him in love: Because grace and mercy are with his holy ones, and his care is with the elect.

Responsorial Psalm:
Kara Kennedy
Responsorial Psalm: Psalm 72

Psalms
Chapter 72

1
Of Solomon.
2
1 2 O God, give your judgment to the king; your justice to the son of kings; That he may govern your people with justice, your oppressed with right judgment,
3
That the mountains may yield their bounty for the people, and the hills great abundance,
4
That he may defend the oppressed among the people, save the poor and crush the oppressor.
5
May he live as long as the sun endures, like the moon, through all generations.
6
May he be like rain coming down upon the fields, like showers watering the earth,
7
That abundance may flourish in his days, great bounty, till the moon be no more.
8
3 May he rule from sea to sea, from the river to the ends of the earth.
9
May his foes kneel before him, his enemies lick the dust.
10
4 May the kings of Tarshish and the islands bring tribute, the kings of Arabia and Seba offer gifts.
11
May all kings bow before him, all nations serve him.
12
For he rescues the poor when they cry out, the oppressed who have no one to help.
13
He shows pity to the needy and the poor and saves the lives of the poor.
14
5 From extortion and violence he frees them, for precious is their blood in his sight.
15
Long may he live, receiving gold from Arabia, prayed for without cease, blessed day by day.
16
6 May wheat abound in the land, flourish even on the mountain heights. May his fruit increase like Lebanon's, his wheat like the grasses of the land.
17
7 May his name be blessed forever; as long as the sun, may his name endure. May the tribes of the earth give blessings with his name; may all the nations regard him as favored.
18
8 Blessed be the LORD, the God of Israel, who alone does wonderful deeds.
19
Blessed be his glorious name forever; may all the earth be filled with the LORD'S glory. Amen and amen.
20
The end of the psalms of David, son of Jesse.

Second Reading:
Caroline Raclin, the Senator’s stepdaughter
New Testament, Letter of Paul to the
Romans 8:31b-35, 37-39

31
8 What then shall we say to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32
He who did not spare his own Son but handed him over for us all, how will he not also give us everything else along with him?
33
Who will bring a charge against God's chosen ones? It is God who acquits us.
34
Who will condemn? It is Christ (Jesus) who died, rather, was raised, who also is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us.
35
What will separate us from the love of Christ? Will anguish, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or the sword?
36
As it is written: "For your sake we are being slain all the day; we are looked upon as sheep to be slaughtered."
37
No, in all these things we conquer overwhelmingly through him who loved us.
38
For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, 9 nor future things, nor powers,
39
nor height, nor depth, 10 nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Gospel:
Father Hession
Matthew 25:31-32A, 34-40

31
14 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32
and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33
He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34
Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'
37
Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'
40
And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41


http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible /

[OneGrassRoot]

10. Thank you, hedgehog. Thank you all! :) n/t

[hedgehog]

12. I don't want to be snarky and say "go out and get a Bible", but

it's a complicated document and there are somethings in there way too important to allow it to be co-opted by the Right wingers to justify their actions!

[OneGrassRoot]

13. Oh, I totally understood what you were saying! You're right....

any book or document quoted from -- and co-opted -- so often, should be familiar to those of us who encounter The Others and have an interest in refuting their ignorance.

Thanks again. :)

[bobbolink]

37. Sojourners has a good one for you... The Peace And Justice Bible.

They have compiled all the relevant verses.

Quite an undertaking, and very important.

Jim Wallis is one evangelical you can afford to like. When he was a seminarian, he and some of his seminary buddies took a bible and cut out all the references to poverty. What was left was "swiss cheese." ^_^

[Posteritatis]

26. GNB's good for some of the historical/supplementary info too

There isn't much, just the odd footnote, but if you know some Roman or Hellenistic history before opening the thing up it lets you mesh the two fairly easily in places. I got a few different translations when I was in my classical-history phase in university and they helped quite a bit at times.

[Jane Austin]

28. For those who would like to take a very non-fundie look at the

Christianity, may I recommend The Kingdom Within: The Inner Meaning of Jesus' Sayings by John Sanford?

This book was incredibly meaningful to me as Sanford interpreted the New Testament from a Jungian point of view.

One revelation was where he writes about the saying "Be ye perfect as my father in Heaven is perfect."

That was always a problem for me, as I couldn't even measure up to my own family, much less to the perfection of God.

He wrote that a better translation would be "Be ye whole as my father in heaven is whole." Now that was something I could aspire to.

Then he went on to talk about the shadow side of the personality and how real understanding depends on acknowledging the shadow side of our selves.

If you're not familiar with Jung and his writings, you might understand the problems the self-righteous (think Republican, fundie right-wingers who proclaim only (and loudly) with their holier-than-thou personas) have with inevitably stumbling into sexual or other trouble.

An acceptance of our weaker, shadow side is crucial to maintaining balance or wholeness in our lives, as if one doesn't acknowledge it, one is bound to be overcome by it.

Whistling past the graveyard is but a mild version of pretending you only have a good side.

With apologies both to Sanford and to Jung for my representation of their work, I do want to recommend this book for a look at non-pious, non-judgemental and non-self-righteous Christianity.

http://www.amazon.com/Kingdom-Within-Inner-Meaning-Sayings/dp/0060670541/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251575823&sr=1-3

[KittyWampus]

30. the Jungian take you speak of is not dissimilar to Qabalistic take

[csziggy]

11. From the funeral program, some quotes

Psalm 72
Reader: Justice shall flourish in his time, and fullness of peace forever.
All: Justice shall flourish in his time and fullness of peace forever.
Reader: The mountains shall yield peace for the people, and the hills justice.
He shall defend the afflicted among the people, save the children of
the poor.
All: Justice shall flourish in his time, and fullness of peace forever.
Reader: Justice shall flower in his days, and profound peace, till the moon be
no more. May he rule from sea to sea, and from the River to the
ends of the earth.
All: Justice shall flourish in his time, and fullness of peace forever.
Reader: For he shall rescue the poor man when he cries out, and the afflicted
when he has no one to help him. He shall have pity for the lowly
and the poor; the lives of the poor he shall save.
All: Justice shall flourish in his time, and fullness of peace forever.
Reader: May his name be blessed forever; as long as the sun his name shall
remain. In him shall all the tribes of the earth be blessed; all the
nations shall proclaim his happiness.
All: Justice shall flourish in his time, and fullness of peace forever.

Matthew 25:31-32A, 34-40
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on
his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will
separate the people one from another...
Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my
Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of
the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you
gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes
and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you
came to visit me.
Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed
you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and
invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in
prison and go to visit you?
The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these
brothers of mine, you did for me.’

[Lydia Leftcoast]

14. If there's one point that Jesus emphasizes again and again,

it's that the wealthy are only as good as their deeds.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a good example.

The parable of the banquet, in which the wealthy and prominent refuse to attend a banquet (which is a metaphor for the kingdom of God), and so the host (God) tells his servants to go out and find the poor and disabled sitting by the side of the road.

The parable of the publican and the rich man in the temple, in which the rich man brags about what a wonderful person he is and the publican simply asks for forgiveness of his sins.

The parable of the landowner who feels smug and secure because he has had a good harvest, but an angel comes and tells him that he's going to die that night.

And that's just the stuff I can recall offhand.

For all the ill-informed talk about "the New Testament God and the Old Testament God," there's also a lot in the Hebrew prophets (the latter half of the Old Testament) absolutely blasting those who oppress the poor.

For example, Micah 6:6-8: <6> Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?
<7> Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
<8> He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

[OneGrassRoot]

15. Very powerful...

"...and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

Thank you. :)

[Carl Skan]

16. Mathew 25 is the standard one

But it's been used as a weapon by people who don't actually care about the Bible so many times that using it gets you steroetyped pretty quickly by those who know what they're talking about. (but those aren't typically the kind of people you seem to want to argue with)

[OneGrassRoot]

17. I actually don't want to argue...

but hypocrisy is something I have a difficult time ignoring, when it keeps being thrust in my face.

Religious hypocrisy, for some reason, has always been something I can't endure well. The whole "Moral Majority" crowd.

Words are words...actions are more important...but since so many religious fundamentalists rely on words to prove their righteousness, I should indeed become more educated about these same passages if I do engage them.

I also must believe in the truth of the words if I am to use them. Just as I quote Emerson and Einstein, I am open to quoting words from the bible that speak to my truth.

[Carl Skan]

19. And you don't see the irony in that?

By that I mean the ironcy of you using the Bible to refute their hyporcricy when you don't believe in it.

I'm right there with you on the religious hyprocisy thing. I've just come to learn that when somebody starts their discussion of the Bible with one of the Leviticus verses on homosexuality or Romans 1:26-27 they're almost always a conservative using the Bible as nothing more than a political tool. Unfortunately, the same tends to be true on the other side of the coin regarding Mathew 25.

[OneGrassRoot]

20. No, you misunderstand....

While I may not believe in the bible being the "literal" word of God, there are truths in some of those words in which I strongly believe. Just as I resonate with words of Emerson, Einstein, etc.

I don't want to memorize passages to use as a tool in arguments; rather, I genuinely want to learn some of the passages which speak to truths in which I believe. Rather than dismiss the book altogether, I want to learn more about it. I simply don't have time to read the entire book right now (though I did read it as a child...I just don't remember), so I value others' input about their favorite passages.

I don't have to believe in the whole book -- and always make that clear -- but there is beauty and truth within the book, and that's what I was asking for input about in this thread.

:)

[Carl Skan]

23. I see what you're saying, sorry about that

Your original post seemed to have a tone of wanting to find ways to debate Christians.

[OneGrassRoot]

24. No problem; it probably did come across that way. :)

That's my bad.

;)

[sabrina 1]

35. It's also used frequently by those who

do care, who are Christians and see their religious beliefs constantly being distorted by those who actually do not care.

You are worried about what the very hypocrites the passage is often applied to, have to say. Personally I have little interest in the opinions of people who lie and distort everything they touch. And the more often the passage is invoked to point out how hypocritical they are, the better imo, whether by Christians themselves, or non-Christians intelligent enough to see the hypocrisy and point it out.

[Carl Skan]

36. Agreed

Reply #17 explains why my b.s. meter goes on high alert when somebody brings up Mathew 25.

[pinto]

18. They're printed here - The Funeral Mass program -

http://cfadm.3cdn.net/47d53e97b2c667bac5_a3m6ii1zo.pdf

[Taverner]

21. Start with the Beatitudes

The Religious Right violate every single one of those

[livetohike]

32. That's the first thing that I thought of too

:-) and yes the Religious Right hear the Bible, but they do not heed it.

[Taverner]

33. The RR has all kinds of excuses. My favorite: That's supposed to be AFTER the rapture!

As in, you have to be an asshole until Jesus shows up. Then, because all the mean, bad Muslims and Atheists will be gone, you get to be nice to everyone.

:eyes:

[livetohike]

34. Be here now. That's all I would have to say. They could take

some very important lessons from Ted Kennedy's faith. I am the niece of a past Bishop in the Lutheran Church (RIP Uncle John).

[bobbolink]

38. Here's what I think of as the essence of the biblical teaching... do you remember the Bishop in Les

Miz?

Remember when Jean Valjean had stolen the silver and was taken back to the Bishop by the cops?

The Bishhop said (according to my memory, which is somewhat faulty, but this is the essence) "My son, I'm so glad you have returned. You forgot to take the candlesticks I gave you!"

In doing so, he showed love and forgiveness to Jean Valjean and turned his life around, and he, in turn, changed the lives of many more.

That's what I think of as the essence of true Catholic life.