ACLU questions police response to G-20 Protest on Pitt Campus

[PA Democrat]

<snip>

Vic Walczak, legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Pennsylvania, said there were no legal observers in Oakland on Friday night as there were throughout the other demonstrations. But from what he has been hearing from people who were on the Pitt campus that night, there seemed to be no reason for police to have responded the way they did.

He said those arrested complained that while they tried to disperse, they kept running into other police units and were, in essence, trapped until they were arrested.

"Our help line has many, many messages on it. We're in the process of getting statements from people."
"It was a demonstation that could have been managed by far fewer police officers. The key is it should have been managed and not suppressed," he said. "The problem were not because they were being disorderly but because police tried to force them out of Schenley Plaza.

"Look at who got locked up, a bunch of Pitt students and few journalists, people who weren't even part of any demonstration. It raises real concerns, why were they ordering people to leave area live anyway?"
"Police can't indiscriminately arrest people. On Friday night they didn't even have the excuse of property damage going on or any illegal actitity. It's really inexplicable."





http://community.post-gazette.com/blogs/bigstory/archive/2009/09/26/aclu-questions-police-response.aspx

[Nikki Stone1]

1. BIG KICK AND RECOMMEND

And kudos to PA Democrat and her son, a student at Pitt, who is keeping us informed.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. 
[link:www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html|Click
here] to review the message board rules.

[I Have A Dream]

3. I attended one of the big peace marches in Pittsburgh a few years ago.

The people were completely orderly, but there were SWAT people on roofs, and police in full riot gear. It really felt as though the police were itching for a fight; as though they would have LOVED for someone to have started something so that they could use all of their new state-of-the-art equipment. :puke:

[bertman]

17. Of course they're itching for a fight. That's why a lot of people join the police force.

Most of them won't admit that they love the thrill of wearing a gun and maybe even getting to shoot somebody, or that the adrenaline rush when you are sent to a crime scene is very thrilling and addictive.

(I'll temper this by saying that there are many cops who only want to protect the people from the bad guys.)

It's just human nature, when you're trained for "crowd control" and you're taken in full riot gear to the scene of a demonstration, and you and all of your fellow officers are standing around watching a bunch of people (you probably don't agree with politically) marching and chanting and waving signs, and maybe some of them are assholes who are taunting you, that you would want to "teach them a lesson".

So, you get to stand around for hours waiting for something to happen. You get more pissed as time goes by. Then, someone gives the order to subdue a demonstrator and the show is on. The adrenaline takes over and the training on how to deal with peaceful demonstrators is out the window. That's when judgment gives way to visceral, emotional reaction and the adrenaline rush.

The bottom line is that the people IN CHARGE of the police and security people are the ones who should be held accountable for the abuses that occur in these situations. They set it up and they got what they wanted, but they never (or rarely) face consequences for doing it.

[PM Martin]

23. Police are not your friends.

[PA Democrat]

24. Most of these cops were also from out of town and from out of state

and had volunteered for duty at the G-20. I would think that a population of cops volunteering to serve as riot police (and have no connection to the local community) will have a higher-than usual concentration of people just itching to bust open a few heads. The campus is located a few miles from the downtown business district which was a complete ghost town during the G-20. It seemed that since they didn't need a huge police presence there, they directed much of the excess police resources into the campus area.

What's sad is that the Pittsburgh Police had worked hard to establish a good relationship with the student body. On election night when Obama won, there were thousands of students in the street celebrating. They shut down traffic for hours and the cops handled the situation beautifully, letting the kids have their celebration and gradually herding them off the streets.

Even after the Super Bowl when some of the celebrations got out of hand there were no sound cannons, tear gas or rubber bullets. The people who were arrested had vandalized property and deserved to be detained by the police.

The G-20 events have poisoned that relationship.

[bertman]

33. I didn't realize that so many police had been imported for the G20. Man, these guys are

smart. That gives the Pittsburgh police an out. They can say, "hey, those weren't our guys doing that stuff." But ultimately, there were sectors assigned to various units, so it would be very easy to identify which units were involved and who was commanding them.

Anybody want to bet on whether there will be any negative repercussions for the police?

[PA Democrat]

35. Pittsburgh has a Citizen's Police Review Board.

The Pitt News has a statement issued by the board encouraging students to report incidents of police abuse.

http://www.pittnews.com/node/20127

And you are right in that it is almost impossible to determine the officer involved because they were all wearing standard riot gear with no easily identifiable ID badges.

My son and several friends witnessed a police officer assault two students Friday night. He said that there was absolutely no provocation on the part of the students who were not involved in any type of demonstration. There was no order to disperse in the area in which they were walking (which was far from the original scene of the peaceful protest).

He said the officer sprayed pepper spray into the one student's eyes and struck the other student in the head with his nightstick. Neither student was arrested. My son and his friends approached the 2 students to assist them and to try to get some type of ID on the cop, when they were threatened with arrest if they did not immediately walk away and "not look back."

They complied but then doubled back to try to help the 2 students. One was bleeding from a head wound and the other needed water to wash out his eyes.

He has filed a report of what he saw with both the ACLU and the police review board, but I doubt that much will come of it because they could not ID the officer.

[90-percent]

4. Anybody know?

Anybody know the fate of the young protester that got whisked away by the quasi-military types into a big Chevy sedan yesterday?

Who is he and is he safe?

He's not going to end up naked and duct taped in the woods somewhere, is he?

-90% Jimmy

[PA Democrat]

5. This video shows how improper police tactics worsened the situation.

There was a small peaceful demonstration occurring in a corner of the campus.

Riot police arrived by the bus loads and set up lines all over campus. They drove the peaceful protesters out of a small park in the lower corner of campus into the main part of campus. Students who were out partying or socializing on a Friday night were ordered to disperse after the police drove the protesters into their midst and then got caught up between police lines.

The video shows tear gas being deployed on a patio of the main dormitory complex. A panic ensues as students flee the gas and one of the anarchists managed to enter the dorms during the panic. Then the police enter the dorms and threaten students (who were not doing anything wrong) with expulsion.

The stupidity of the police has angered the student body.

http://pittbriefly.com/index.php/site/comments/armed_police_set_off_tear_gas_outside_towers/

[Kievan Rus]

12. Had they been Tea Baggers...

the cops probably would have taken off their riot gear and joined in the protest in order to favor their joint masters...the ultra-wealthy owners of America.

[PA Democrat]

6. Shot with rubber bullets

"It was all students and no protesters -- it looked like any Friday night in Oakland but with more people," said Nathan Lanzendorfer, 23, of Mount Lebanon. He went to Oakland out of curiosity to see the protests and shortly before midnight was caught on Forbes Avenue, with police deploying OC gas from two directions, trapping him on the street.

He was then hit with a rubber bullet in his right leg and his left, started to run, and was then hit in an arm and his lower back. "I never heard any warning to leave the area -- all four shots were within five seconds," he said. "All the wounds are on my back. If I was opposing at all you'd think I I'd have a front wound."

Mr. Lanzendorfer, an independent computer network technician, went to UPMC Presbyterian for treatment of his contusions, two of which are shown below.

http://community.post-gazette.com/blogs/bigstory/archive/2009/09/26/shot-with-rubber-bullets.aspx

[BlooInBloo]

7. State-sponsored domestic terrorists are tough to beat...

I love the tactic of surrounding them, and telling them to disperse, and then arresting them for disobeying at your leisure.

:rofl:

[PA Democrat]

8. The Pittsburgh Post Gazette website has a long article that paints a very unflattering picture

of police conduct on Friday night including the arrest of one of their reporters, who like most of those arrested, was trapped between various police lines while attempting to comply with police orders to disperse. Link here:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09270/1001203-482.stm

Female students who were arrested after being trapped between police lines were subjected to sexually explicit "jokes" made by police officers.

Riot gas was fired directly into at least one dormitory.

An off-duty ACLU observer (she was off-duty because the ACLU was not expecting problems that night) was arrested while holding a dormitory door open so that students could comply with police orders to disperse.

A volunteer medic and member of Iraq Veterans Against the War was arrested while giving first aid to a reporter who had been exposed to the police's riot gas.

[Kievan Rus]

9. Oink, oink, oink

[Robb]

10. Stupid question from an old fart:

...Used to be the point of this sort of thing was to get arrested. You go to a protest action, you're going to get arrested. If you're "lucky" you get a bruise to show the press for it.

Do protesters today not expect that?

[PA Democrat]

11. The vast majority of people arrested were not protesting.

I'd suggest reading the ACLU article and the Post Gazette article I linked above before making such an assumption

[Robb]

13. OK, but my question remains. And I'll expand it with this comment:

...Seeing as the ACLU had no legal observers on the ground, they're going from their help line.

I find it hard to believe a journalist would call the ACLU help line. The journalists know the score, we sure did. You keep shooting anyway and accept the damages when it's done.

And student party-goers who just happen to be out that night and get arrested, they don't have the savvy to understand there's a direct action going on but they have the political acumen to call the ACLU help line in the morning??

I'm not defending the cops here, it sounds an awful lot like they had no business declaring unlawful assemblies and closing streets.

[PA Democrat]

15. Robb, that "protest" was confined to a far corner of campus that

the vast majority of students avoided. The police decided to break up a non-violent protest that wasn't even a protest and chased this group into the main part of campus where students were going about their business. Within minutes multiple police lines were set up and students, who were not involved in the protest and were trying to comply with police orders to disperse, were trapped between police lines and arrested. I really don't know what else you thought those students should have done, or why they should not have contacted the ACLU.



:shrug:

[Robb]

16. I don't think we disagree on the police actions

...Like I said, it sounds like they were heavy-handed and hopefully some heads will roll for it.

And I never said they shouldn't call the ACLU. I just don't believe that any student who is genuinely oblivious to protests going on around them would have thought to call. The "partiers" the article was talking about.

But we have to guess, because there were no ACLU observers on the ground.

The police decide to break up a non-violent protest. Which police do. It's not right, but they do it. A non-violent protest is still a protest, and people involved are protesters. And protesters used to expect to get arrested, it was rather the point.

Said protesters run, which I guess is OK, too, but they run into an area where some hapless folk, with no idea the G20 is in town, are wandering about trying to get drunk? And everyone gets rounded up and arrested. The protesters call the ACLU. The partiers call their parents or lawyers.

Is any of that an unreasonable guess?

Now my opinion part:

You hang out in a group, you light candles, you sit down, you get arrested, you get media coverage, you win the day.

You run? Sure, but then no one gets arrested and a day in court, which media love to cover because it's easy. And try not to run into crowds of non-participants. Police chase you and people get hurt.

You don't fight with the police. You don't address them on their level, because they will win, and you will look like an idiot and probably get hurt.

Am I an old liberal fuddy-duddy?

[bertman]

18. You may be an old liberal fuddy-duddy, but I think you are mischaracterizing what many

of the protesters were doing. I doubt that many went out with the intent of being arrested. This was not a sit-in. This was a demonstration--an expression of opinion supposedly protected by our first amendment rights. This was supposed to be a showing of popular unhappiness with the G20 crowd.

Sure, some of the assholes/anarchists were looking for trouble, but many of the demonstrators were there making a statement about their opposition to the WTO and the G20 meeting.

One mistake you are making in your original idea about demonstrators wanting to be arrested is that the demonstrations of yesteryear were not always greeted by Robocops who wanted to pummel the demonstrators senseless. When we demonstrated in the 60's and 70's we knew that as long as we were peaceful the ODDS WERE that the police would not riot. Nowadays, it appears to be the norm that the police will create situations such as the ones where they surround protesters and tell them to disperse (to where?), then when they CANNOT disperse, they wade in and start being fascist assholes.

[Robb]

26. Indeed.

I'd also point out the "demonstrations of yesteryear" didn't usually have the trustafarian vandals along for the ride. If a window got broken, it was to get in/out of a building. :D

[bertman]

34. Mostly that was true; however, I remember when I marched against the Vietnam war in '69

there were a bunch of SDS and Weathermen who were vandalizing stuff at Dupont Circle in D.C., who created a mini-battle with the police. Other than that incident, I remember it as being a peaceful protest.

[PA Democrat]

19. Robb, this all happened on Friday night.

Official G-20 events were over. The people who broke windows and damaged property were arrested the night before. And yes, some students who were not involved in the protests are savvy enough to contact the ACLU. The ACLU contact information was posted on the website of the student newspaper the morning after the event.

I don't feel qualified to judge you one way or the other, nor would I want to. I think that YOU however may want to consider that you may be unfairly judging theses students. There was no violence, no vandalism and in fact most people were physically prevented from complying with the police by the police themselves and then arrested.

The students who were arrested face risk of expulsion and I know if I was arrested while trying to comply with police orders I would fight back by all LEGAL means possible, including involving the ACLU.

[Robb]

25. I agree

And I would support them doing so, too.

I wasn't aware you could get expelled for getting arrested. In my defense, I went to Berkeley, so really have no idea how the real world handles these sorts of things.

As you've described the situation, it's no wonder people distrust police. In the past they could be counted upon for their part in the dance, but it seems here they've gone waaaaay past it. :hi:

[PM Martin]

30. There is no reason to trust law enforcement.

[PA Democrat]

31. Check out my post upthread about the make-up of the riot police, many were out of town

volunteers. The Pittsburgh Police had a pretty good rapport with Pitt students until the last few days events. That relationship has been poisoned. It's sad and was completely avoidable.

:hi:

[Robb]

28. Another thought:

It all reminds me of a turf war escalation. The window-breakers get more window-breaky, and the cops get elected officials to go along with tanks and sonic guns and what-not.

Regardless of the theories that the window-breakers are double-secret agents, until we find a way to utterly and wholly denounce them, the escalation will continue. And we can't win a ground war against police. Stuff like this is going to get worse unless we find a way to ratchet down the violent ones.

Cops in riot gear look foolish without a riot. :shrug:

[blue neen]

20. From today's Post Gazette:

"Post Gazette reporter Sadie Gurman, 24, was among those arrested on the Pitt Cathedral of Learning Lawn."

"I was arrested on the cathedral lawn while truly trying to get out of the fray," she said."

"Ms. Gurman said she had gone to Schenley Plaza because of news alerts she received on her cell phone. At Schenley Plaza, she was talking with colleagues and others she had met while covering G-20 events. In the plaza, she said there was one person on a loudspeaker. Others were standing around talking, running or playing games, such as duck-duck-goose. She estimated the number of civilians in the plaza at about 200."

"Much of the plaza was flanked by police officers."


http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09270/1001203-482.stm

[PA Democrat]

32. Police intentionally fired riot gas into a dormitory.

<snip>

Ellyanna Kessler, an 18-year-old freshman, said she had been watching from her dormitory in Forbes Hall Thursday night when police shot OC gas canisters onto the balcony of the residence.

"Everybody got tear gassed," she said.



Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09270/1001203-482.stm#ixzz0SKzbtWOO


My son knows one of the students affected by this incident. The dormitory is comprised of suites and small apartments many of which have balconies overlooking Forbes Avenue. The students were on the balcony watching events occurring on the street below. A cop yelled up at them to "go inside." They said they were in their dormitory and had every right to be there. The cop intentionally fired a canister of OC gas at them. It filled the entire suite, triggering an asthma attack in one of the girls.

[blue neen]

21. "Tell us how we can get out of here peacefully. We don't want to be here, but you've trapped us."

More from the same article: "I was trying to move in a way that would not be in their perimeter. I was walking on Forbes toward Craig Street to get out of it. Another police van pulled up. Additional officers in riot gear jumped out and said to 'move back, move back' and were pushing us the opposite direction back toward Bigelow."

"She went that direction and ended up having to jump over bushes on the Cathedral lawn to get out of the way of police."

"I thought I was OK there. The cops jumped over the bushes, too." she said."

"She said a helicopter was overhead. With the cathedral behind a group of people, the police made a half circle and ordered people to lie down on the ground."

"Some of the girls were hugging each other and crying, saying to the police, "Tell us how we can get out of here peacefully. We don't want to be here, but you've trapped us."

"She estimated about 30 people were put in a police vehicle. She was released about 10 hours after her arrest."


http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09270/1001203-482.stm

[Kievan Rus]

14. When you're anti-rich, you can get arrested for anything

Meanwhile, Teabaggers assault other demonstrators and even carry loaded weapons near the President of the United States! But of course, since Teabaggers are pro-rich, they can willfilly break the law and the cops will look the other way.

Being anti-rich is an arrestable offense in our corporatocracy, it seems.

[backscatter712]

22. Police in the U.S. are freedom-hating trash.

I lose the respect I have for a person as a member of the human race the instant they take the oath and put on the badge.

Fuck 'em all!

[bvar22]

27. Don't ANY of the Storm Troopers have kids?

...maybe kids in school?

When are they going to have a "Duh" moment and realize that they are harming their children, neighbors, friends in order to protect the wealth of a handful of people in the Ownership Class?

Don't they realize that they will NEVER be allowed into that Country Club?

[PM Martin]

29. Toms chose not to see the forest from the trees.