Edugation 101: "Being Gay Is Not A Choice ..."

[BLUSH]

[BlooInBloo]

1. Edumacation 102: It doesn't matter whether it's a choice or not...

Because there's nothing wrong with it in the first place.

[Hosnon]

2. Zactly.

Although I'm not so sure ignorance is a choice either. (But, wait, is "all" or "some" implied...?)

[gorfle]

3. Had this discussion with a co-worker last week.

Lots of people think there is something wrong with homosexuality on religious grounds. If you can convince them that they "are as God made them", with no choice in the matter, it takes a big chunk of wind out of their sails.

Of course then there is the Catholic church that now says you may have no choice in your sexuality but you must resist your homosexual urges anyway. It's God's test or some bullshit.

My co-worker is convinced that homosexuality is choice. When I pointed out to him that every gay friend I have ever asked if they chose to be gay said "no", he said, "Well, I bet these people were molested or something in their youth and don't remember it." Of course he also believes that most pedophiles are homosexuals.

Some day, hopefully sooner rather than later, science is going to reveal the true causes behind our sexual orientation. I hope I live to see it and I can't wait for the religious nuts to be sputtering over it.

The single most precious thing in the universe is love. Why people would deny this to others in the name of a supposedly loving god is beyond me.

[BlooInBloo]

4. I care as much about the true reason for sexual orientation as I do for olive orientation...

Which is to say: I don't.

People like or don't like - whatever. There's nothing wrong with it.


"Why people would deny this to others in the name of a supposedly loving god is beyond me." - Pro tip: People don't actually believe that shit. See my sig. See the Genealogy Of Morals for the full story.

[BLUSH]

10. there's a reason the right maintains it's a choice

Republicans need people to believe it's a choice for them to more easily discriminate -- to say the least -- against gay people.

[BlooInBloo]

11. Yes, but choice isn't the issue - they just want everyone to believe it is...

The issue they're trying to address by insisting upon teh ghey being a choice is that of blame/responsibility. When there's something wrong, the next question is whether or not a person can correctly be blamed for it. If nobody had any choice in the matter, then clearly blaming them is utterly ridiculous. It's only if, in addition to something being wrong, a person chooses the wrong thing that blame can rationally be attached.

Republicans therefore reason according to the two-part plan:

1) There is something wrong with being gay.
2) Gay folks choose to be gay.

Therefore, 3) Gay folks can be *blamed* for being gay.

In this manner, republicans eagerly seek to justify their discrimination against gay folks, in a way they could never hope to against black folks or women (obviously considering being black or female to be a choice would never fly, not even for republicans).

There are evidently two viable ways of blocking the republican inference: deny the first premise, or deny the second.

Most people on gay folks' side go with denying 2). I disagree with this tactic, primarily because it leaves 1) still standing - as far as argumentation is concerned. And it is 1) that represents the actual evil of gay bashing. In the absence of premise 1), the second premise becomes completely moot. The only relevance premise 2) has, is tangential - by providing enough oomph to the first premise to allow the conclusion to follow.

Besides permitting the moral logic juice to flow, premise 2) is largely used as a simple diversion by gay bashers. By joining the battle on premise 2), gay bashers are afforded the luxury of keeping their primary evil out of the discussion, which allows its roots to grow deeper with each passing second. Even if premise 2) is eventually completely refuted, the time that battle gave to premise one to further sink into the American collective consciousness will have been invaluable to gay bashers.

Therefore, I think it is far more helpful to cut to the chase, ignore premise 2) as irrelevant, and attack the heart of the gay bashers' argument: premise one. There is nothing wrong with being gay. Since there is nothing wrong with being gay in the first place, there is no question of blaming gay folks - any more than olive lovers are to be blamed for liking olives.

Or something like that. I still haven't had my coffee, so this might be incoherent. I'll revist later, if need be.

[BLUSH]

12. "justify their discrimination" ... exactly

"In this manner, republicans eagerly seek to justify their discrimination against gay folks, in a way they could never hope to against black folks or women (obviously considering being black or female to be a choice would never fly, not even for republicans)."

As for attacking premise one, that there is something wrong with being gay, you'll have to pry the bibles out of their cold dead hands.

It's hard to persuade/debate/argue with people who rely on rote memorization of Bible verses. (What do you say to a person who always responds, "The Bible says this and the Bible says that"?)

[zoff]

6. Amen to that!

[BLUSH]

18. and a women!

:)

[TicketyBoo]

8. There's nothing wrong with it…

because, in the first place, it's not a choice.

It'd be wrong for me, because it's not who I am. If it's who you are, it's not wrong, it's just you being you.

[WVRICK13]

5. It Wasn't A Choice For Me

unless I chose when I was one or two years old. As early as I can remember I was always attracted to handsome men. Hell, at age four I remember watching Bonanza so I could see Little Joe and I read Superman comics because he was handsome. I never hated females nor wanted to be one, I just liked other men.

[justiceischeap]

7. I had a choice about being gay

I could choose to stay married to a man and be unhappy because I wasn't being honest about my sexuality or I could choose to be open about being a lesbian and be happy. Those are the only choices when it comes to sexuality.

[Silent3]

9. While that true and important to know, I think it would be even better...

...if people didn't even care if it was a choice or not. Even if a person could for whatever reason chose to be gay, so what? What would it harm anyone else for them to do so?

[Rex]

13. Ignorance is not a choice.

Stupidity is.

[BLUSH]

14. If you refuse to hear other arguments, if you refuse to entertain

other views, you are choosing to be ignorant.

As for Stupid: "Stupid is as stupid does."

Not my quote :)

[Rex]

15. Well then you no longer are ignorant, just stupid.

:hi:

EDIT - not you, I mean in general. Not that you didn't know that. NM.

[BLUSH]

16. Maybe it's just a fine line between the two

[Rex]

19. A slippery sloop

:rofl:

[BLUSH]

17. Republicans have a choice

Join the 21st century and stop fighting to deny civil rights to everyone

or

Become an irrelevant relic