Sedona sweat lodge update

[catbyte]

I just read on The Daily Beast that James Ray, the host of the "spiritual retreat" is pretty famous and an Oprah regular. That makes me queasy. I just don't understand how people get so spiritually bankrupt that they fall for crap like this. People actually paid between $9 & 10K for a 3-day fast and this! They didn't even have to pay for food!

There was a really good quote in the article:

snip...

Host James Ray was reportedly inside the dome when the medical emergencies occurred.

A spokesperson for him said Ray is too distraught to talk, but sends his deepest condolences to those involved. A written statement said he is spending time "in thought and prayer."

"Everybody has a right to believe and practice the way they wish to, but when it endangers the lives of others, or when you have to pay for it, that's not a spiritual belief," said Mario Black Wolf, an Indian who has his own sweat lodge.

A sweat lodge is a small shelter where water is poured over hot rocks, emitting steam and warming the inside. They are used in traditional Indian ceremonies to cleanse the mind, body and soul.

"It also represents the womb of the mother earth for many tribes, and once you put a price on that, we call it prostitution," said Black Wolf.

Usually sweat lodges are made from organic wood, but Sheriff's deputies said the one at Angel Valley was made of plastic and blankets, although they haven't determined that was what caused the victims to fall ill.

"If you have bad materials, plastics, things like that, that causes toxic fumes," said Black Wolf. "That's why we don't use plastic in our lodge."

snip...

Here's the link:

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/other/story/Family-of-woman-killed-at-Sedona-sweat-lodge/anOabxeh2EmLllo0TcCpxA.cspx

As an Ojibwa, I find it truly offensive that there charlatans rip off spiritual practices of another people and make money off of it. I also pity the pathetic people who fall for such bullshit. If they really want a spiritual experience, actually go to a rez and bring the $9-10K with them. It could do a lot of good and make them think about someone else except themselves for a change.

I don't mean to be overly harsh, but it bugs the hell out of me when creeps like this Ray guy get legitimized by the likes of Oprah, et.al. :mad:

Diane

Anishnabe in MI

[OneGrassRoot]

1. Thank you. K&R n/t

[roguevalley]

44. you could be overcome so fast in that kind of heat, especially when

you haven't eaten. I hope they put his sorry butt in jail.

[Brickbat]

2. Right on.

It's sad when anyone feels they have to pay for a spiritual feeling. Pretty much anything they want to find is right there inside them, waiting to be found.

[supernova]

3. People are lost and are easy pickings

for someone like Ray.

I've never been in a real sweat lodge, but I'd love to experience it, in the appropriate cultural context of course.

I do know that I really love anytime I get to spend in a steam room.

On another note: This guy is a millionaire, right? Yet, he couldn't have a better facility built but out of plastic and blankets?!?!?

[Mari333]

4. hello from SW MI

[catbyte]

14. Howdy Mari333

I'm in SW MI too! It's too darned cold, but the leaves are beginning to look nice. :hi:

Diane

Anishnabe in MI

[knitter4democracy]

39. Hi from the Creek!

I can't believe the cold--I love it, but it's taken me by surprise this year.

[mike_c]

5. +1

There are aspects of sweat lodging that transcend culture-- the physiological effects of heat and steam, alternated with cooling plunges (at least that's the way we do it here in the northwest). They're very enjoyable. There's no need to overlay cultural stuff that users simply do not share. I think Diane is absolutely right-- cultural wanabees who try to don spiritual practices or other aspects of another's culture like a clean t-shirt before dinner, only to set them aside later when they're inappropriate for those people's real lives are expressing some inner bankruptcy. They're trying to fill it cheaply and easily. And the hucksters who encourage them, and profit from their bankruptcy, are even worse.

[imdjh]

6. Anyone who pays to fast and sweat, well, you know...

[SpiralHawk]

The k and the r

Never pay for the Purification Lodge. If someone is charging money, that's a clear sign right then and there that the Medicine has been perverted.

Offer tobacco to the elder, bring a big plate of food to share at the feast after the ceremony, and if you can also offer some Frogskins to help pay for the wood and other supplies...that's all...

$9,000 Feaking Dollars ???? WTF. That's more than I lived on last year. Unfreaking believeable.

[BeHereNow]

48. Never pay for truth, period.

The Peace Pilgrim taught me that.
BHN

[Warpy]

7. Sweats are common to a lot of cultures

Irish sweat baths were usually built in artificial caves in hillsides. Only the potato famine finally stopped the practice. The last sweat bath cave in Ireland reportedly went out of business in the 1880s when the last practitioner finally died.

Sweat rooms were common in Roman baths and Turkish baths and the "shvitz" was a favorite among eastern European Jewish immigrants. Moving north, there's the sauna tradition.

Unfortunately, this Ray loon didn't read the fine print of any of these traditions that said you don't fast for a prolonged period, you do hydrate fully, you don't cram the place full, and you don't go for marathon time in a sweat without a break.

It was only a matter of time before one of these prancing New Age lunatics finally killed somebody. They never seem to do the really hard work of researching traditions fully with the people who still practice them and realizing that those traditions contain a lot of safeguards so that people don't get hurt.

[jus_the_facts]

15. Russians call 'em Banyas.

[TalkingDog]

16. Thank YOU.

It gets to be a bit.....hypocritical, when people become incensed over "THEIR" sacred/historical/unique traditions are sold off without bothering to ponder the radical idea that since we are all human beings that someone, somewhere in the world might have come up with a similar, if not the same, idea.

And worse yet, not even having the intellectual curiosity to bother looking for the information. ...might as well be republicans....

[Warpy]

22. To be completely fair, Ray was imitating the plains cultures

that emphasized the spiritual aspect of the sweat lodge over the cleansing aspect of the shvitz. Again, my criticism that he hadn't done his homework stands and they, along with all the other cultures that used sweat as a method of physical and/or spiritual cleansing, had important safeguards in place to make sure no one got hurt.

I understand the resentment. I was pointing out that there were a lot of different cultures with the practice and any of them would have taught this idiot what he needed to do to avoid killing his victims.

[Cha]

31. And, Americans take Saunas at their

local YMCA or Gyms. I've been taking them for decades(Scandinavians have been using them for thousands of years)..it's a really good way to rid your body of toxins and to feel great.

But, if you use articial material to make a fire..there will be consequences. Who would do that!

[otohara]

38. Check Out The Web Site For Good Ole James Ray

and you tell me if this guy is more about money or healing?

He's more than a loon now - criminal sounds about right.

http://jamesray.com/

[YOY]

8. Sedona is loaded with folks making a buck off of New Age Beliefs.

n.t.

[blondeatlast]

11. I loved going there as a child. Beautiful place, still a secret to most.

It's just over an hour away and I haven't been back in over a decade. It just isn't the same anymore and it's tragic--the natural serenity didn't need an interpreter--or an interloper. The spirit came alive just by looking at nature's wonder.

Sasly not the case anymore. Shameful.

[YOY]

12. Truly a shame.

I am not a big fan of churches but Frank Lloyd Wright's chapel there is an awesome piece of architecture. He knew about natural beauty and how to work with it.

[whopis01]

32. He might have known about natural beauty - but he did not design that chapel

It was built by Marguerite Brunswig Staude. She was a student of his, but it was her, not him who designed that chapel.

[YOY]

33. None-the-less lovely.

n.t.

[Ex Lurker]

17. I don't know how secret it is

We were there in the seventies, and it was swarming with people. Oak Creek Canyon looked like a municipal swimming pool on 4th of July. We had planned to spend several nights there, but left the same day and have never gone back. Very disappointing after reading all the hype. I can only imagine what it's like now.

[pitohui]

26. yah it's definitely no secret

i first went there in the 70s too, also oak creek canyon, beautiful but not secret!

[aikoaiko]

9. I can emphathize....

As an academic psychologist, I get to watch kernels of scientific psychology get mixed in with a lot of hooey and sold at a hefty prices in the name of mental health.

There is nothing we can do to stop people from ripping off science and culture, but when the product leads to death and injury, then its time for jail time and civil penalties.

[otohara]

24. Just Take A Look At This Con's Web Page

Harmonic Wealth Weekends, Creating Absolute Wealth....Practical Mysticism for only $6000.00 per person.

http://jamesray.com/events/spiritual-warrior.php

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[blondeatlast]

41. "ONLY $9695 per person." Reports are that 55-75 perople were in that lodge.

Dis. Gust. Ing. doesn't even begin to convey my feelings...

[Skittles]

42. it surprises me in this economy

they apparently have money to burn and THIS is what they do with it? fucking saps

[immoderate]

45. Looks like he's uncovered the secret to getting rich!

--imm

[Sedona]

10. Sweat lodge where two people died lacked the necessary building permit

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/other/story/FD-No-record-of-permit-at-Sedona-sweat-lodge/mBa94OAClE6tsli_F-8vug.cspx

[blondeatlast]

13. Carbon monoxide--great. It should be unbelievable but sadly, I'm not at all shocked.

How sad on so very, very many levels.

[AspenRose]

18. Agree 110%

This is nauseating. :puke:

It is indeed very offensive. And you are correct, that kind of money could have gone to doing some good on the rez.

:kick:

[AspenRose]

19. dupe

:kick:

[Mimosa]

20. Sweat Lodges and healing

My grandmother was native American, from Douglas AZ. My mother contracted polio when she was about 6. Doctors declared hers a hopeless case. My grandmother took her from Jacksonville FL where they then lived back home. The Indians (and that's what our family called themselves when they weren't claiming to be descended from Spanish nobility LOL) took my mother to the mountains (the Chiricahua mountains) and treated her in a cave using sweat lodge and herbal medicines. She was cured within about 5 weeks.

Using a plastic tent like structure sounds crazy! It would suffocate people just like a plastic bag.

[rd_kent]

28. I'm glad that your grandmother was ok

but that story does not serve as any kind of evidence that the sweat lodge and herbs had anything to do with it.

[winyanstaz]

37. right..and nothing ever would convince you that it did....

[Eric J in MN]

34. They probably died from lack of oxygen...

...in a sealed structure with a fire.

[Sebastian Doyle]

49. The fire isn't inside the sweatlodge itself.

The rocks are heated in a fire outside of the lodge, and then they are brought into the pit in the center of the lodge. A typical sweat ceremony will have 4 rounds, with more rocks brought in at the beginning of each round, so it gets hotter inside as the ceremony progresses. There will be some smoke coming off the rocks, and from any medicines that are added to them, and of course the steam, but even after that, there should be plenty of oxygen to breathe. If it gets too hot for you, you get as close to the ground where you can.

But if they had plastic tarps around the lodge, that could have very well contributed to a lack of oxygen. That was just stupid. But from what I hear, this guy was more about the money than he was any spiritual traditions. As others have pointed out, you really shouldn't be paying for a sweat lodge ceremony in the first place.

Not going to say there's never risk involved. I passed out while waiting to use the bathroom, the first time I did a sweat. In the narrow hallway, I had nowhere to go but on top of my own legs. Think I got hairline fractures in both of them, but with no health insurance at the time, I didn't go to the doctor to find out. They healed, though they do bother me as I get older, when the weather changes.

I call it "my old prayer injury". But it was my own fault.... I didn't drink as much water as I should have the night before (I drank caffeinated beverages instead, since I was working nights at the time). Big mistake, didn't make it again. But I did go back into the sweat lodge many times after that.

[NNN0LHI]

36. My mother was diagnosed with polio as a child

She recovered completely. No trips. No sweat lodges. No herbal medicines. No nothing.

Don

[otohara]

50. There is No Cure For Polio

there is instead a preventive vaccine, discovered by Dr. Jonas Salk.

If by cured, you mean she did not suffer any physical signs of the virus, meaning muscle atrophy in one or more limbs aka "flaccid paralysis". If not, that by no means indicates she was cured. Less than 1% of those who were infected, were left with permanent paralysis -

I was one of the unlucky 1%.

95% of all individuals infected with polio have no apparent symptoms.

Another 4%-8% of infected individuals have symptoms of a minor, non-specific nature, such as sore throat and fever, nausea, vomiting, and other common symptoms of any viral illness.

About 1%-2% of infected individuals develop non paralytic aseptic (viral) meningitis, with temporary stiffness of the neck, back, and/or legs. Less than 1% of all polio infections result in the classic "flaccid paralysis," where the patient is left with permanent weakness or paralysis of legs, arms, or both. http://www.vaccineinformation.org/polio/qandadis.asp

I contracted polio one month before the vaccine that helped wipe out polio was approved.

When talking about your mom and polio, leave out the "cured" word. We are polio survivors, meaning we didn't die.

I don't know how your mom feels these days, but there is a theory that people who had mild cases of polio are now experiencing weakness, fatigue - could be diagnosed as having Fybromayalgia or Lupus, or she may have post-polio-syndrome.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. lulz

[wolfgangmo]

29. ?

Death amuses you?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

30. Depends on the context.

[MagickMuffin]

23. "in thought and prayer.".... Praying he doesn't get sued

Ray is too distraught to talk

Yeah right, I would bet he doesn't want to answer questions about his practice and how much money he has been collecting over the years.

I really hope there are charges brought against him.

Has Oprah made any statements why she had been promoting him?!?!?

He obviously was only in this for the money.

:cry: for the people that thought James Ray could help them find themselves.

[pitohui]

25. IF the healing worked there is no sin in paying for it and in some cases 9K would be a small price

either we believe sweat works or we don't -- if we don't believe it works, then of course it's outrageous that anyone charges a fee for it

in any type of healing there needs to be a standard of "first do no harm" and this guy failed to maintain the standard -- that's why he's a bad guy

charging a fee for service doesn't make him a bad guy or every doctor who charges a fee would be a bad guy, even your doctor, even mine, and let's face, for serious trouble they charge WAY MORE than $9k

this guy was obv. packing 'em in like sardines to get the max amt of money before he flees the country, but come on, it doesn't make the victims idiots because they paid $9K, you don't know the degree of desperation some of them were facing -- get a terminal dx and get told medical science can't do anything for you, or have a mental illness and find after decades of taking every therapy and pill there is that you're still miserable, and if you have $9K to take a gamble, why wouldn't you take it?

i don't blame the victims here, they may have exhausted every "legitimate" resource without their problem being helped or solved, been there done that, what are they supposed to do then? i suffered 20 yrs of chronic pain and you'd better believe i went down some strange pathways, what other choice did i have since i was unwilling to lay down and die?


i don't understand why this guy hasn't been arrested yet, he and only he is responsible for the wrong done here, through his choice to prey on the vulnerable, most people i've met in the new age are very vulnerable and were driven to the new age because mainstream religion, science, and medicine have utterly failed them

IF he was a true worker, though, then it's silly to say that money would have perverted the work -- if a doctor sets a bone, the bone sets the same whether or not i pay the guy

try telling your doctor, teacher, minister etc. that her work is perverted and useless because she takes money for it -- we live in america -- money is how you compensate people for their time and knowledge

the type of person who wants a "free ride" and to get the healing/reading etc. and re-pay with a damn sage or tobacco wreath or a bowl of rice -- oh, please

if you do good work, there's no reason not to charge a fair fee -- mind you, i don't charge a fee to give readings but nor do i pretend to have put the time and study and effort into the craft that many others do -- i don't see why people who are working at a professional level shouldn't charge a fee

yah yah we all agree that bullshit shouldn't charge a fee but some people, even some leaders, in the new age etc. are actually genuine

maybe not the time to bring it up but oh well i'm bringing it up anyway

oprah should not disqualify people from being on her show merely because they charge high fees, high fees might just reflect demand rather than fraud

let this guy fry but why fry the whole community? most new age practitioners have pretty shitty incomes from what i've seen, frankly, they're not living high on the hog on their fees -- i experienced some genuine help and i saw others experience genuine help, and the guy who helped me was pretty much scraping by on a bare income (in fact for a couple of months he was homeless)

[Eric J in MN]

35. The woman who died was described by her family as being in good health...

...when she went there.

[blondeatlast]

40. I'm working on this case for a paralegal studies assignment on negligence. One of the participants

was treated for kidney failure--KIDNEY FAILURE.

Sweat lodges are designed traditionally to hold 8-12 people; this one held, by conservative estimates, 55.

Yavapai Sherriff is considering CRIMINAL negligence charges. I'm good with that.

There is so much wrong with what happened I can't even begin.

[Eric J in MN]

52. How did they know someone had kidney failure? NT

NT

[blondeatlast]

53. According to the NYT report I read for class. Mind that it could have said "possible

kidney failure." I don't have the article handy right now, but kidney failure was in the article.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

54. Pre-existing kidney failure?

Or kidney failure caused by the hypothermia?

[rd_kent]

27. This is no different from any other religion taking money from the sheeple

Why do folks find it so unreasonable that someone would pay 10 grand to fast and sweat and pray, but don't find it unreasonable that an imaginary guy lives in the sky.

[bridgit]

43. I agree with Black Wolf

[BeHereNow]

46. "when you have to pay for it, that's not a spiritual belief" We have winner.

Imagine what that money could have done for a rez.

I hope James Ray is done with his "spiritual" bullshit.

BHN

[BeHereNow]

47. K&R and thanks for the update...

I've been wondering about the status of this crime.
BHN

[kestrel91316]

51. As soon as I heard that this was a New Age "sweat lodge" and not

Native American, I knew it HAD to be in Sedona. That's where all the wacky CA New Agers go to in AZ. I have a friend who is one of them, who just raves about the "vibrations" there and other such dreck.

[H2O Man]

55. It's sad, all around.

The greed of the pimp in having a lodge for 50 people is all too obvious. The people paying to attend illustrates the foolishness of mixing doctrines.

[PVnRT]

56. They built a sweat lodge out of plastic?

Fucking idiots.

I don't think you're being overly harsh at all; these New Age types are nothing but hucksters.

[Hekate]

57. KnR, Catbyte.

[depakid]

58. Ray's only despondent because he's going to lose his "harmonic millions."