People posting celebratory threads about the dow reaching 10,000

[debbierlus]

Need to watch this video:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x388962

We give them trillions, OF COURSE, they post billions in profit. They stole the fucking money and it is back to the exact same shit of a year ago when this whole thing started.

[Fumesucker]

1. Umm ... A fair number of the "celebratory threads" were purest snark..

I realized that most our snarkometers are well out of calibration these days if they haven't just literally exploded in a shower of molten metal and burning plastic so it is understandable that some people would have missed it.

[TexasObserver]

2. The positive response to the DOW going over 10K is because it's good for US.

Yes, the conduct of Wall Street has been bad, and I wish the administration would do more to bring them into line. But that doesn't change the fact that a rising DOW is good for the economy, which runs on confidence more than anything.

Those who bemoan the lack of jobs don't seem to understand those jobs aren't coming back until the stock market is back, and you can like or not like it, but that won't change it.

It's not that we don't share your concern for jobs. We just happen to know that this step of the DOW recovering is part of a process, and hating it is hating the hope of new jobs any time soon. Jobs lag behind the DOW. That's the way it is and hating that fact won't alter it.

[MineralMan]

3. Why does it seem like some DUers want the economy to crash?

I do not understand that...

[Purveyor]

4. Interesting and troublesome question, indeed. eom

[Fumesucker]

5. I think you are misinterpreting people's words..

They don't *want* the economy to crash, they think it is crashing and that this Wall Street rally is just the big money guys sucking the last blood from the withered husk of America. I think that perception enrages a lot of people that watched Wall Street and the Banksters get trillions of dollars of bailouts because they were too big to fail.

[leftstreet]

8. +1

[HillbillyBob]

11. I don't want to see the ecomomy crash.

I would like to be able to have a decent standard of living where I don't have to choose between food and the light bill, or a new pair of jeans and fuel to heat with.
We have done reasonably well cutting down, but you can only cut so much before you are naked and in the cold.

It has crashed for us in 2002, and we knew this mess was coming and when I said ya might want to figure out how to survive w/o regular income and lay in some rice and beans..I was told I was a doom and gloomer.....

We did buy a house, because we could not afford rent anymore, rent was 950 and went to $1,275 per month.
We grabbed and abandoned home, they walked away and it went into foreclosure, we spend a little every month for insulation products, from insulated/black out curtain liners(still dont have draperies 3 years after moving in), to great stuff foam, and stuffing cracks with styro, i even made gaskets for outlet and switch covers (makes a difference , if you smoke go over to your outlet or switch covers and hold it near if you see air movement, you are losing heat or ac, if you have a video camera with night vision, go around inside and outside and where you see bright spots when outside that is where heat is leaking, and if you do it inside and see dark spots near doors or windows you have cold air leaking in)
The payments are less than 600$, we looked for even cheaper, but those places were pure shacks or burned out and we needed a place to live.
We have cut to the bone. We live on much less than we were making 10 years ago. My partner took a 40% pay cut I took 70% because now I am sick on disability.

The only way we got the place is because of partner being able to use his VA benefit to get a loan. We insisted on non adjustable, after a year we were on time with every payment we got a chance to refi for a lower interest rate so we did. We did it with very little down too, but we had to scrimp for that and we had to pay off our old bills from when we both found ourselves out of work and savings were all gone. We were not living high on the hog. We had rent, gas(heat), power, food and truck payments. The last job loss was after being outsourced several months prior and out of work for some time and living on our savings.

I had to be sick and homeless for almost 2 years to get help, and that after I landed in hospital with pneumonia.

So F**K Wall Street I hope the hell it does crash and we have to start a different kind of economy. We sort of have by dealing with mostly local folks for food, and growing some of our own and bartering tomatoes for eggs with our neighbors (unfortunately some raccoons got into their hen house so no more eggs). Those fat theives can starve for all I care.
I have busted my butt for years working 2 or 3 jobs plus side work doing restorations and side electrical jobs for what to land on SSD less than 900 a month. I have no sympathy for Wall Street fat cats.

[MineralMan]

12. So, you do hope it crashes?

Well, OK, then. Given the population of this country and how it is distributed, alternative economies are simply not going to work. The only way people are going to survive is for the economy we have to recover enough so there are more jobs again. Wall street reaching 10K is one step in that direction.

Since you have skills, you'll be one of the first to be back at work. You may have to do it on your own, but folks will need stuff done, and you can apply your skills to that.

The problem is way too big to start imagining some "back to the land" sort of solution. That option disappeared forever, sometime last century.

[asdjrocky]

14. +1 on that one Bob.

You have to wonder why so many people in America think Wall St has anything at all to do with them that helps their life in any way. It's like somebody realized they had too much money and found a place to play will it. They call it Wall St.

This is always my question- Why should I celebrate something that has it's best days when people lose their jobs? Can someone explain to me, just an average guy, how that is a good thing?

[NNN0LHI]

51. The retirement pension I receive for my wife and I to survive on is invested in the stock market

Does that explain it to you well enough?

Don

[MineralMan]

52. They don't care. They don't have anything invested. They don't

care if you lose your retirement funds...

Feh!

[NNN0LHI]

53. I think we are infiltrated with Beck loving lunatics around here

No Democrat that I know personally would be this way. Only the Rethugs I know would do that. And those fuckheads can suck on it.

Don

[MineralMan]

56. I don't know. The left has its own group of folks who have

little concern for other people. Ideologues who have some ax or another to grind, and to hell with anyone with any other concerns. Extremists are extremists, and the devil take the rear.

From animal rights wackos and anti-vaxxers to pure communists and back to the landers, the folks on the extreme edge don't give a damn about any concerns but their own. Knowledge is anathema to them, but their voices ring out loudly when they have a forum.

All have no understanding of where we are, and only care about where they want to go. It's ugly, whether from the right or the left.

[NNN0LHI]

57. You may be right but I really don't know any personally

I still think we are infiltrated.

A good housecleaning is in order.

I can smell 'em.

Don

[hfojvt]

15. see, that's just crazy talk

it's like living in a nasty old high rise apartment with 500 other people, and you hope it burns down so something nicer can be built. Never mind that such a fire is gonna kill a bunch of people, and destroy what possessions they do have and leave them homeless with only the shirts on their back. Never mind that rebuilding it is gonna take lots of money that is already in short supply.

Perhaps another example might be New Orleans. It crashed after Katrina over four years ago, and is still not close to being rebuilt. Now imagine doing that with the whole country.

Also, in the chaos of a crash, what is likely to spring up, is a bunch of warlords who take advantage of the chaos and lack of government.

[elocs]

25. "I don't want to see the ecomomy crash." "So F**K Wall Street I hope the hell it does crash..."

So which is it because it can't be both?

[sabrina 1]

30. Wall St. crashed the economy and so far, no one has been

held accountable. They were betting on failure, on success, on life and disgustingly, on death. They were betting on worthless pieces of paper, thinking how clever they were to mix good and bad mortgages and then insure their worthless paper, either to fail or to succeed or whatever the hell they were doing. They wanted to bet on terrorism, and they are currently excited about doing with life insurance policies what they did with mortgages.

Tell us how those shenanigans created any jobs for anyone other their own small thieving club? And what makes you or anyone else think anything has changed?


Give one good reason why anyone should celebrate Wall St. crooks getting richer, giving themselves even bigger bonuses than the ones they took as fast as they could before the collapse.

I've heard all the reasons why we should be jumping for joy because of a number that means nothing to the majority of Americans.

No one trusts them anymore, and rightly so. The notion that this is a sign that sometime in the future, jobs will be created, makes me laugh frankly. When Goldman Sachs is taking tens of millions in bonuses instead of creating jobs, it's hard to make anyone believe anything other than, that these same thieves are doing what they did to cause the destruction of this country's economy in the first place. Placing faith in Wall St. to do anything positive for the American people, is about as realistic as believing in Santa Claus.

I'll celebrate when I see some of the people's money being confiscated and returned to them. Wall St. has no impact on most of the people I know, or I should say, no positive impact. We don't gamble.

[AllentownJake]

6. Some people question

The conventional wisdom that is bandied about that Wall Street doing good, is good for the rest of us. Kind of understandable in the current environment. A lot of those profits were reached by implementing cost cutting measures that meant that Americans lost jobs.

It isn't they that they want the economy to crash. They question the conventional wisdom, that corporate profits translate to better lives for Americans.

[TexasObserver]

7. Don't they understand this is on OUR watch?

We own the economy right now. We have the president, the VP, the house and the senate. If the economy doesn't improve significantly by October 2010, we're getting our butts kicked in the Nov 2009 midterm elections.

This comes down to a very irrational hatred of all things related to the stock market. Some hate the stock market like teabaggers hate Obama. It's not rational. It's not based upon anything other than ignorance of what the stock market really is and who has their money in it.

I suppose some believe it is possible for jobs to return before the stock market does, and that's pretty much an impossibility.

I want to see more done for job creation now, but I can want that and still appreciate the good news as it occurs. I can see it's going to be this way with a number of people.

[MineralMan]

13. Exactly. The Dow going up isn't everything, but it's something.

The alternative is unthinkable.

[TexasObserver]

18. Can you imagine if it had fallen to 3000, as some were predicting in March?

Can you imagine unemployment at 20%?

A person may hate their old employer for laying them off in 2009, but if they're going to get that call asking them to come back to work, they have to hope the employer who fired them will make money in the interim. Otherwise, they never get called back.

I suppose this means that every piece of good news will be met with Bronx cheers.

[Raineyb]

29. You think it's not at 20% now? The unemployment numbers only count

the officially unemployed. People who fall off the rolls don't get counted at all.

That's not even going into the fact that Wall Street hasn't a blessed thing to do with the economy. The economy was in the shitter long before the shit hit the fan last year yet you insist that we see every little rally as evidence that things are improving. Wall Street is NOT indicative of how the vast majority of people are doing.

[TexasObserver]

35. Utter nonsense.

[Raineyb]

47. I hope you don't suffocate yourself with your head buried in the sand. n/t

[TexasObserver]

65. Yours is buried in a much darker, danker place.

[Raineyb]

68. Not bloody likely. I doubt there are many people who have their head

buried in as nasty a place as you have yours.

[vadawg]

9. its because they are nuts, they think that if the US economy crashes then they will see others suffe

as they think they are suffering, this is madness as the very people who are at the bottom at the moment will be even worse off if everything goes to shit, but people watch to much TV and think it will all be good and a utopian society will arise...

[debbierlus]

19. Stop it. Just stop.

Facing the reality of the situation is how you go about changing it.

Not celebrating because the theft of trillions gave Wall St a TEMPORARY boost...that is the behavior of the Bush sheeple.

I probably have more to gain by a robust stock market then the vast majority of this board due to family investments that could make me a really rich woman.

This is NOT about wanting failure.

[MineralMan]

22. I will stop arguing against your proclamations when you

demonstrate some level of expertise in the subject. What are your credentials?

[GillesDeleuze]

61. its not our economy, its theirs, taken off our backs

a crash may be the only way to break the oligarchy

[fasttense]

16. You are wrong unemployment rates to do NOT decline as the market improves.

"Jobs aren't coming back until the stock market is back."

I hate to differ but a high DJIA does not necessarily produce a low unemployment rate.

For example in 1968 the US stock market began a 18 month decline of 44%. YET, the unemployment rate remained between 3.4 and 3.7%

In 1972 the Dow Jones Industrial Average closed above 1,000 for the first time, ending the day at 1,003.16. Yet the unemployment rate continued its relentless climb and was at 5.3%.

From 1973 to 1974 a market collapse was experienced on Wall Street. Warren Buffet used the market weakness to purchase stocks at attractive values. YET, unemployment remained between 4.6 and 7.2%. True the unemployment rate continued to rise for about 2 years after the crash but nothing on the level of what can be considered a collapse in the job market. At it's peak 2 years later, the unemployment rate reached 9% for one month.

In fact I find very few times when a high DJIA had a corresponding low unemployment rate and a low DJIA had a corresponding high unemployment rate.

[TexasObserver]

20. Your straw man has no bearing on my statement, which is correct.

You have taken my statement and misconstued it. I didn't say unemployment is reduced when the stock market rises. I said "Jobs aren't coming back until the stock market is back." I have also said that lag is 6-12 months, at best, between the market's return and the uptick in employment. Even then, it won't bring back full employment for years. So, you're chasing a straw man you constructed for the purpose of attacking. I never said when the stock market returns so does employment. Your conclusion that I said they move together in unison is absurd.

This economy is in recovery, and the stock market building a floor is necessary for new job formation to occur.

[fasttense]

28. So, since I have no 401K or any money in the stock market

Why should I care if the market improves? How does it affect unemployment? Why must bankers/Wall Street/Insurance conglomerates be making money off of trading each other stocks before the unemployment rate declines?

Since they aren't creating jobs, or causing unemployment, what useful purpose does the Stock Market even serve outside of providing the wealthy a place to store their stolen loot?

[MineralMan]

32. Do you understand how stock markets work? It sure doesn't sound

like it.

[TexasObserver]

33. You still benefit from a returning stock market.

The stronger the stock market is perceived to be, the more comfortable lenders are making loans, the more comfortable employers are hiring people, the more citizens feel like spending money they have been saving recently.

If you're going to be mad until you get whatever job it is you think you're entitled to have, then stay mad until that happens. The economy moves on, like a giant glacier, oblivious to you.

[elocs]

10. So we are supposed to hope that Wall St. would go down, that it would lose money?

Had the Dow taken a big decline would we be celebrating? Would that happening create more jobs and unemployment then would drop? If my 401k or IRA went up because the Dow went up, should I be unhappy? :shrug:

[debbierlus]

17. It isn't sustainable. What are you going to do when it crashes again, in a couple years time?

with no bailout because our credit is maxed...

You could have said the same thing a few years back when the stock market was riding high on the Ponzi schemes of the housing bubble.

It didn't last. This won't either. And, you TEMPORARY recovery has cost trillions...

This is so obvious. Pathetically obvious.

Go have a party. Whatever. Ignorance is bliss although how one can remain ignorant after the events of the last few years (and not ONE regulation has passed to reform the system so this won't happen again) is beyond me.

Go be happy. Whoopee!

[MineralMan]

21. OK...you're making some strong categorical statements here.

What are your credentials? Seriously...you're saying things in a way that makes it appear that you know what you're talking about. Demonstrate that, please.

If you're just another amateur economist, say so, so we can make an accurate evaluation of your statements. If you're a professional in that field, tell us that.

So, why should we give any weight to your proclamations?

[elocs]

23. So, we're unhappy when the Dow goes down and unhappy when it goes up.

I am beginning to think that as Democrats we are never truly satisfied unless we are unhappy about something. We are not happy people.

[MineralMan]

31. Some folks are just plain unhappy, no matter what happens.

It's their nature. Not much fun to be around aren't those Gloomy Gusses.

[elocs]

37. Right. There are a lot of doom & gloom, everybody go in the backyard and eat worms types

that are never happy about anything. Even if the glass is full it is not full of what they think it should be full of.

[MineralMan]

40. Plus, there are a number of people on DU making broad

statements that seem to demonstrate that they don't even understand the concept of a publicly held corporation and stocks in the first place. If they can't see that a rising value in the stock market stimulates companies to do things, they clearly don't understand incremental ownership or much of anything else having to do with a capitalist economy.

I've asked our original poster what his/her expertise in business economics is. So far...crickets.

[elocs]

43. At DU, having an opinion is generally all the expertise you need for anything. n/t

[fasttense]

44. Ahhh, that old Republicon talking point a rising tide floats all boats.

So when huge financial corporation that produce absolutely NOTHING, who make money simply by moving money around, start making money again (after borrowing your tax dollars to get better again, thank you very much), you can bet we'll get trickled down on soon.

[MineralMan]

45. Nope. The effects are still there.

I want a very highly-regulated marketplace. Very. I'd like to see the market return to its roots, as a capital generator for businesses, and that alone. The Republicans gave us this derivative-driven mess. I'm a capitalist but no Republican.

[fasttense]

39. Here is the thing.

Unemployment is killing us. The government claims unemployment is only a little less than 10% but I'm telling you folks it's a lot worse than that. Economic downturns always hit the less congested and rural areas first. We have an 18% to 19% unemployment rate here in rural TN (that's what the state reports and we know it's higher than that) and it keeps going up. Stores are closing, strip malls are vacant and the one mall we have has lost about half the stores in it. I've lived through downturns, I'm pretty old. This is like nothing I've seen before. And it will soon be coming to a neighborhood near you.

We see absolutely no improvement, just continuing hardship and pain. The only glimmer of jobs is minimum or less than minimum wage.

So, watching all those uber wealthy people celebrate their good fortune on the Stock Market because they used our tax dollars to save themselves, kind of makes you want to scream.

[MineralMan]

42. Those folks in the stock market own those companies. That's what

stocks are all about. Those are the companies that drive employment, feed the small business economy, and supply all the crap you buy. When they prosper, people gain confidence and spend money. When they don't prosper, people fret and hide money under the mattress.

Think about all those folks invested in 401k plans. When the market dumped, they got scared, and rightfully so, since the stock market is a bit risky for short term retirement investing. When they got scared, they shut down their spending. Now...the market's going back up...they feel a little better, so they'll spend more money.

When people spend more money, other people have jobs making and selling the stuff those people want. That's the simplest way I know how to put it.

Is there stuff wrong on Wall Street? Oh, you bet. But, the fundamental nature of incremental ownership of companies is still the underpinnings of it. And companies hire people, make products, provide services, and more. When they spend money, small entrepreneurs make money, too, and hire people, provide services, and more.

So, seeing the Dow rise is an indication that people are regaining some confidence. That's a good thing, since confidence causes spending. Spending creates jobs.

[fasttense]

64. Well, here is the thing, those financial corporations that are driving the market

don't live here. They don't own hardly any companies or businesses here. Most of them left, except Wal-Mart. And you can take Wal-Mart back because it's hurting our small farmers and local businesses. Mostly we have small businesses, and the few franchises we have are failing fast.

Of course there are banks and they own most of the empty houses that wont sell at auction. I guess some of those Wall Street financial firms own most of those foreclosed homes. Those same firms who wont let us reduce the price of what we owe on a house that's practically worthless. The same firms who call and threaten you if you don't pay up, right away, and Oh by the way, we're taking your house.

So don't expect us to be cheering when those firms who conned us into lousy deals for our homes, and up and left the minute things got tough, start making big bonuses Don't expect us to cheer after those firms drove most of the profitable small businesses out, only to disappear the minute things got a little tough. Oh and they left behind pay day lenders. Let's all cheer.

[Occam Bandage]

24. I think we should only celebrate when people lose money. nt

[elocs]

26. I am beginning to believe that is not an uncommon attitude here. Strange. n/t

[Statistical]

27. What trillions?

Nobody gave anyone trillions. All your poutraging can change history.

TARP was $700 billion and PPIP was $500 billion. Thats $1.2 trillion.
Add in another $100 billion for the autos and $128 billion for AIG and w are in the $1.5 trillion.

That isn't trillion.

Then you forget if the companies prosper they will repay the funds with interest. Will some default or need writedowns. Yes. I think AIG, GM, Chrysler are dead money. The taxpayer will either lose some or all that was lender there.

Most banks will repay the borrowed money.

The rest was fed increasing liquidity to lower interest rates. That didn't cost taxpayers a single nickle.

So rant on but it isn't based in reality.

[fasttense]

34. Printing dollars to float the banks tends to increase inflation

causing all of us problems. And so far the banks/Wall Street/Insurance conglomerates have paid back very little, some people claim that pay back is at about 60% of what a smart investor would have gotten.

But we can all pretend the the uber rich, the majority of stock market players, getting better will improve our horrible circumstances. I think the first bush called that Voodoo Economics and Raygun called it trickle down.

So, how soon after the uber wealthy are done using my tax dollars to gain back the money they lost, will the job market come back?

[Statistical]

36. Meh how about you read before you poutrage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_market_operations

How exactly do you think changes interest rates? Till will of God?

By increasing liquidity they change the supply/demand dynamic and reduce interest rates by market forces.

When the Fed "sets" rates it is actually setting a target. It then uses open market operations (like "printing dollars") to REACH that target.

[fasttense]

41. I was not talking about setting interest rates.

I was talking about inflation. Inflation tends to raise interest rates.

Anyway what is a poutrage?

And what does "Till will of God" mean? You are very difficult to understand.

[Statistical]

54. What do you think would have happened without Fed lowering interest rates?

Without low interest rates the entire economy would have completely stopped. By lowering the cost of money the fed helped reduced the effect on the recession. For example people are still buying homes. If interest were 3% higher there would be less housing sales which would result in lower prices, more foreclosures, trillions more in loss asset values, more bank default, more tightening of credit, etc.

However the Fed can't just say "interest rates are low". They FORCE them low, and later they will FORCE them higher. They do this by expanding or contracting the money supply.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_market_operations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_easing

All this liquidity will be taken back. Why? Because they need to prevent inflation however inflation requires rising prices and there is little risk of inflation now. The fed will force interest rates higher to prevent inflation and to do so they will destroy the extra liquidity.

The fed has been doing this for 60 years now. It isn't a new concept.

So do you think the recession would be better (less severe) with crippling high interest rates?
If not then the only way the fed could lower interest rates is create liquidity.

[inthebrain]

38. The Dow goes up signifying that those lazy fuckers are continuing to steal from you

The only people that really benefit from that are the wealthiest 5 percent of the country. They can afford huge loses their because they have their wealth tied up in other things besides the stock market.

When that fucking Dow goes up you know the pillaging is just not good BUT EXECPTIONALLY GOOD for those fuckers.


The only solution is an overthrow of the capitalist system by a mass movement of the working classes.

[MineralMan]

46. A movement to do what, exactly?

I had a massive movement, but the product was useless. So...tell us what your movement would do, and how...I'd like to know.

[inthebrain]

49. Remove the Wall Street leaches from sucking on my teet

Wanna start there?

[MineralMan]

50. Well, I can see that you've given that a lot of thought...

Never mind...I had hoped you actually had something to offer...but no...

[inthebrain]

58. So you think there nothing wrong with these Wall Street mooches

Overworking people to death, having them do the jobs of three people and not getting rewarded for their productivity. All the while the laborer increases the value of the company as well as improves it's profitablity while some Wall Street fat cat sits on his ass in the Bahama's raping him of his earnings.

Of course, brush it off.

The recent "recession" is nothing a but a restrucuring. These lazy fucking slobs have not taken one hit to their lifestyle and got a massive pay out from the public coffers to boot. In the last year PRODUCTIVITY WENT UP!!!!!

[MineralMan]

59. No, I don't think that at all.

But, that wasn't the question. You were going on about workers rising up and that stuff. I asked what your plan was to replace the stock market. You did not answer.

Yes, the market, as it stands, is corrupt. That doesn't mean that a rising Dow isn't predictive of recovery, which is the point of this thread.

You want something else. Describe it.

[inthebrain]

60. The dow is not an indicator of well being for Working Class people

If you think that then this conversation is going no where. Not even a capitalist loving economist is ever going to make that claim if he has an honest bone in his body.

Whoever sold that bullshit to you certainly did a good job of it. That's exactly how the wealthiest 1% sell their interests to the working class as if they are the same. They are not.

[The Straight Story]

48. When it reached high points under bush, it was evil/bad. Now though, it is good

If corps are making a killing now (while many are unemployed, without health insurance, etc) it is a sign that our guy is doing well and his ideals are helping.

The rich are getting richer - and who could complain about that????

[Statistical]

55. The dow has declined 28% in the last 2 years how is that a "high point".

Things are simply less bad.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

62. Not to worry. It's bound to "trickle down" someday. Well, maybe..if the bankers approve..

Naw...forget it.

[inthebrain]

63. When we force it from their greedy little fingers.

[HughMoran]

66. Why do you hate America?

Heh, you thought I was being funny, didn't you ;O)

[inna]

67. kick