Has anyone read "College is for Suckers"?

[TwixVoy]

Has anyone read "College is for Suckers"?

Damn good book I am just finishing. It matches my observations from the brief time I spent in college.

I remember many years ago sitting down with a course counselor (or whatever the hell they are called now) at a university in my city. I was working full time back then. (I have worked 40+ hour weeks since the time I left high school) I asked him if he could help me find classes around my work schedule. I remember him telling me "Well, if you have to work you don't really belong at this school".

At the time I felt bad about it, but in retrospect it was the best advice ever. Had I taken loans I would have left that school over $100K in debt.

When I worked retail management for the past few years I can't tell you how many suckers were starting out in store level management after getting a degree in psychology or some such completely unrelated degree. They were all usually in massive debt.... and the salary for retail store management is.... well lets just say they are looking at 20 years of debt.

Now I am a technician for a major telecom. Most of my coworkers have degrees. The young ones coming in are in massive student loan debt. Here I am with my diploma learning with on the job training doing the same work at the same pay. They got suckered in by the student loan/college BUSINESS.

I have to say.... it is a breeze to compete against this generation coming in to the work force. Half of them lack work ethic, are hateful, mean, generally have trouble getting along well with coworkers, entitled, and can't even seem to show up to work on time. We have these dumb ass kids coming in with "degrees" talking about their belief the "degree" is going to get them a top level management spot any time now regardless of how inexperienced and irresponsible they are on the job.

I can see major problems coming down the road though. All these people getting in to massive student loan debt with the belief they will have the income to pay it off in a reasonable time.... Not going to be pretty when reality sets in.

[Oregone]

1. Im going to write a book

Title it..."People who buy my book are Suckers"

Ill fill it with generalizations, and try and get the purchasers to feel better about themselves. Maybe they will send it to a friend. Ill probably get a multi-book deal; "Publishers are Suckers", "Politicians are Demonic Vampire Scum", and "Demonic Vampire Scum is for Suckers" will be my trilogy, all of which balance Eastern Spirituality with Western Philosophy in a post-Twitter world

Ill buy a large home. Maybe MC Hammers pad. I will try not to go bankrupt. If I do, I will write a new book. Something like "Free Government Cash for Slackers"

Its going to be great.

[TwixVoy]

2. Do you even read books?

Or is your attitude any book that doesn't tell you what you want to hear is above you?

Frankly I doubt you've cracked a book in years.

[Le Taz Hot]

3. LOL!

:rofl: :applause: One of the best responses I've ever read on DU.

[JVS]

7. My plan is to write a 84 volume compendium titled "Fuck That" in which I issue my denunciations.

[NuttyFluffers]

13. i need to spawn your offspring...

:rofl:

then we can put them in sweatshops making marshmallow peeps and Carrie Underwood black velvet paintings. and once we're caught we'll write expose' books detailing our fall from great heights.

[devilgrrl]

40. Great response - I'll be sure to check it out at the library for FREE!

:thumbsup:

[Posteritatis]

44. Win! (nt)

[Liberation Angel]

4. k&r

nt

[Swamp Rat]

5. For me, going to college was a wonderful experience.

I met a lot of smart, creative people who came from diverse backgrounds. It gave me the opportunity to live on different continents and learn other languages and cultural practices, as well as a lot about art, music, science, history, etc. I traveled to many countries, ate exotic foods and had a lot of interesting relationships (to say the least :) )

Overall, I'd say it was the best time of my life.... oh, wait. It still is because I've gone back to school.... again. :D

Working in retail, however, was the absolute worst experience I've ever had, so I guess our experiences are quite the contrary. If I could go back and change one thing in my life I would rather have taken more loans than work in retail.

:shrug:

[flying rabbit]

29. Where is that pic taken?

Switzerland?

[Swamp Rat]

33. Lake Geneva

I visited Lake Geneva, among other places in Switzerland, the year I was attending an Austrian university, on scholarship.

Here's where I lived after I finished by study abroad in Costa Rica.... I stayed a LOT longer than I was supposed to. :D

[flying rabbit]

41. Thanks,

that's two more places I must visit before I shuffle off this mortal coil. I should probably get started soon.

[Johonny]

34. kicker there

[JVS]

6. I went on academic scholarship. Going was a good decision.

[JCMach1]

8. So, we should dumb down America more and everyone should become business

worker drones :eyes:

Sounds like more BS along the lines of 'Rich Dad, Poor Dad'

Glad it worked out for the OP... However, I would not trade places with him.

[HughBeaumont]

22. I cannot believe people even READ "Rich Dad Poor Dad" books.

A bunch of Horatio Algerist pie-in-the-sky claptrap that's long on Amway and "The Secret" positive thinking whackery and short on facts, specific instruction and reality.

[jonnyblitz]

28. speaking of positive thinking whackery, I just picked up

Barbara Ehrenreich's "Bright-Sided, How Relentless Promotion of Positive thinking has Underminded America". my mother fell for that crap when she had breast cancer in the early 90's. they told her she was afflicted with breast cancer because she was too negative. :crazy:

[HughBeaumont]

37. GMTA!

Just got the audio books from the library on that one (the book was taken out, as expected). I've been wanting to read this since I heard about it - I've always been fascinated as to how they made a billions-per-year cottage industry out of ideas that do nothing but blow sunshine up one's ass. Again, it all boils down to classic victim-blaming. There are forces, body defects, economic climates and problems and a Darwinist system working against you that are completely beyond your control - so why not just be HAPPY!!?!?!?

[Confusious]

48. Sounds like a play on the old puritian idea

"Your poor because ( you don't love god enough )"

Or something like that.

Puritan ideas are *STILL* a thorn in our side.

[hfojvt]

9. as a janitor with a master's degree it looks that way to me

but part of that is my fault for quitting my good job in the military industrial complex. (Can you say $400,000 in lost wages? Sure. I knew you could.)

If only the University of Nebraska had given me my degree in cloth, I could have at least cleaned urinals with it and gotten some use out of it. Well, besides the massive $8100 I made for ten months of part-time teaching. That actually was not bad money though, for a part-time job in 1990. The factory job I got in February of 1993 only paid about $10,000 for full time work.

I used the cardboard one as an archery target and tried to make a dartboard out of it, but it does not make a very good dart board.

[LeftyMom]

10. A good college education would have given your the critical thinking tools needed to see

the many problems in your OP.

[1]

11. dude, this argument won't fly here. we all know you can't critically think without a degree...

no one in america has ever been successful without a diploma. or two. or three.

just ask that guy driving your taxi.

he'll set you straight...

[quaker bill]

12. My experience is different

I was successful with just a high school diploma, but became vastly more so when I finished my college degree. I took no loans out, so finishing the degree took some time as I paid for the courses one or two at a time.

However, I will grant that I have interviewed many people for employment with BS degrees in environmental science who were waiting tables or working retail. I imagine they were not as happy with the results.

[DrDan]

14. so you apparently think that college does nothing except

dull the work ethic; make students hate, become mean, quit getting along with peers, develop a sense of entitlement, and sell their clocks and watches.

Granted, mastering a technician position may have more to do with on-job training, learning and experience. But the technology for you to work on probably came from a college background. The business decisions for your company are probably based on some college education coupled with some common sense, experience, and luck.

But you have certainly stumbled on a major problem. We are pricing our best students out of a college education. It should be free for anyone wishing to pursue.

Solves the problem - doesn't it.

[Bonn1997]

15. College is what you make (or don't make) of it (nt)

[droidamus2]

16. Education for the sake of education

This OP shows a problem I have with some peoples view of education. I graduated 'junior college' in 1975. At that time students were more than willing to challenge their teachers and I believe many were interested in getting an education for the sake of what they would learn not specifically because it would get them a 'good job'. When I returned to college in 1980 the atmosphere had definitely changed the younger students seem less willing to challenge what they were being taught because it might result in a lower grade and that would effect their ability to get a 'good job'. The whole focus of an education had become how much money can I make when I get out. I am a believer that education in and of it self has value over and above what kind of job it allows you to get. What young students need to realize that unless you are in the top of your class (to be generous I would say top 5%) going right into a high paying job and being on the fast track to a big career isn't going to happen just because you earned a degree. The degree will help you get in the door on that first job but then it is up to you to perform. I've also found that though it doesn't hurt to have the degree on your resume after you have had a job or two after college the degree means less and less. For example in my case I received a BS degree in Computer Science in 1986 so a lot of the specific 'job related' information I was taught is to put it kindly 'dated'.

To give some voice to the other side I don't think everybody fits into a college atmosphere or education and there is nothing wrong with learning by doing. The OP is right in that if you get into a job and work for the 4-5 years it takes to get a degree and do well then you will probably be in as good if not a better position than somebody coming straight out of college. The problem is that you as a 'do it yourself' have learned a job but given up exposure to learning many more subjects and being exposed to a wider spectrum of people and experiences. College isn't for everybody but education and learning should be a lifetime experience.

[surrealAmerican]

39. You're right about the changing attitudes. The cause ...

... behind that change was very likely the cost involved. In the '70s students could still put themselves through school with a summer job and part time work during the school year. By the mid '80s, this was no longer possible. Those "younger" students in the '80 (I was one of them) were paying for school with loans, and were concerned about earning enough after college to pay off those loans. It's even worse now, because the cost has skyrocketed.

The real value of an education is frequently not an economic one.

[RagAss]

17. College taught me to question what society was trying to jam down my throat....

and if it did nothing else, it was worth it.

[conspirator]

18. If you have good grades and can get a free scholarship then it's worth it nt

[caraher]

19. There's a lot going on here...

First, there's no doubt that in terms of economic return, for many career paths you would be way ahead financially investing an amount of money equal to college costs and going straight into the workforce, and the OP has followed one of those. Not everyone does.

Second, so many people do go to college that it's easy to find large numbers of college grads with any positive or negative characteristics you like. So it's hard to conclude anything general about college grads just because the original poster's experience is that great hordes of them are douchebags. The same is true of people who did not go to college.

Third, we have the credentialing industry. That's why so many college grads put scads of faith in the magical power of their degree over, say, their skills, work ethic and intelligence. And it's not completely misplaced; so many jobs really have no reason to require college degrees, but demanding that a prospective employee have one helps whittle down the candidate pool. I don't think a degree alone gets anyone a job (at least not with a savvy employer), but it might keep you in the running.

Fourth, student loan debt is indeed ridiculous. That's another thing we've managed to get wrong in this country, just like health care - education commensurate with ability should be free, just as health care matched to need ought to be in a civilized nation.

Finally, there are non-economic benefits to college for those with the intellectual chops to really get an education. A good college education is not merely training for success in the workforce. If that's the whole reason you go to college than "college is for suckers" is probably a message to consider -- along with the true cost (scholarships and financial aid obviously can tip the economic scales). Not everyone graduates with crushing debt, even if too many do.

[FarCenter]

20. College should train you for a job

Education is wasted on the young.

[TwilightGardener]

21. Don't be jealous. Earning a degree at night or online is much, much easier

and cost effective for adult students than it used to be. Those coworkers aren't suckers for getting an education beyond yours,or for taking out loans. They accomplished something, and bettered themselves, no matter how much money they make right now. And many career paths require a degree for promotion into management--so they eventually just might be your bosses.

[Okie4Obama]

23. A liberal arts college isn't a vo-tech school. Too bad some people see it that way.

[JerseygirlCT]

27. I'm with you

So long as college is looked on as only career-training, the most important aspects get pushed aside.

It is a shame that most often, a liberal arts education costs far too much these days. (We're paying for one now; it hurts!). But I encourage my kids to pursue one all the same. With that base, they're prepared to learn anything, do anything.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

31. Disagree, today liberal arts programs prepare you to either go for another degree

or wait tables.

That is not entirely tongue in cheek. The prospects for someone with just your basic BA is pretty slim pickings. The techies do better.

[philly_bob]

35. College is doorway to learning to appreciate & understand art & science ...

College is a seat in the student cafeteria where they're talking about the latest ideas and trends.

It should be available to everyone. It's a ticket to the candy store.

But would I feel that way today? My parents paid my tuition and I graduated (liberal arts) with no student debt, back in 1967. In that job market it was easy to get a job.

This thread is very depressing.

[HughBeaumont]

24. Any more, the ROI just isn't there.

While the fact remains that not having a college degree (notice I said "degree") will close a lot of doors for you, corporate America hasn't exactly been doing it's part to open them for the glut of degreed citizens who acheived their credentials in the past and present this past decade.

And then there's the "we need more math and science graduates" crowd. Really? Is there a viable job market for all of this time and money I'm going to be spending on these difficult sciences? Or is corporate America going to take the bitch way out and offshore/inshore all of those positions? What good is the sheepskin and debt if you're unemployed because American corporations aren't hiring or practicing one-sided free movement of labor and capital?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

32. Still the techies are doing much better than liberal arts

[treestar]

25. I've always thought that one big advantage employers have

Is the way in this culture we take it upon ourselves to train ourselves, at our expense, to be able to work in their companies. When they are the ones who should pay for it. We should start a national strike - no one go to college - the employers should be paying for it.

As to general education only. Just go for the luxury of becoming a Renaissance person.

[TwilightGardener]

26. What absolute silliness. It's rare that I read something so dumb.

Yes, we Americans are going to arm ourselves with ignorance and low levels of education--THAT'LL show 'em! They'll be forced to hire us know-nothings, and put us through college for FREE!! Or, they'll just import more educated foreigners. LOL.

[MadHound]

30. You're perceptions about college are a bit off

First off, not everybody has the good fortune to get a vocational career such as yours, especially in these times. Most are consigned to doing physical labor or some sort of low paying service job.

Secondly, I'm willing to bet that most of these "dumb ass kids" will be pulling down big bucks within a few years, depending on their particular field of work. Oh, and being inexperienced and irresponsible shows up in the vast majority of new workers, degreed or not.

Yes, the big problem is their debt. However given that their income potential is much greater than non-degreed workers, that debt might be a problem for a few years, but it will go away. Yes, we've got to find a way to finance college for a lot of people, but that problem doesn't mean that college is a sucker's move.

Finally, college isn't just about training for a job, it is also about expanding your intellectual horizons. Getting a wider view of the world in many different ways.

Frankly you sound like an old curmudgeon, bitter that you never attended college. Perhaps you should try it out. There are many creative ways to fund a college education. Me, I actually worked for the college I attended and got my degree tuition free.

But whatever you do, don't discount the value of higher education, because that value is beyond monetary measure.

[niceypoo]

36. 100k in debt?

What, were you going to go to medical school? I just got my bachelors and my loans came to about 25k. I worked full time all the way through school as a technician. Try getting a job as an engineer, or an accountant, or a laboratory tech, or a dentist, or a software engineer, or anything else that is highly paid without a college degree. As a technician you will probably never crack 50k a year whereas most entry level jobs requiring a four year degree start there. It will take me about 3 years to pay off my loan.

Do the math.

[Odin2005]

38. Only if you think the role of colleges is that of mere vocational training centers.

What happened to the Liberal Arts ideal of creating well-rounded, open-minded citizens?

[Posteritatis]

45. Communist!

;)

[Odin2005]

47. LOL!

[Taitertots]

42. Willful Ignorance is not a good thing

Lets take the average wages for college graduates and compare it to the average wages of people who are not in college. Are you better off going to college? Without question.

It is amazing how people think being intentionally ignorant is a good thing. While you were learning one insignificant portion of your one job, we are learning all about how the world works. What do you know about anything? You have no opportunity for advancement because you know nothing beyond your one thing. If you get fired you have no opportunity to find a new job outside your tiny area of knowledge. Good luck for you finding a place to hire someone under qualified and intentionally ignorant, I don't think everyone else is going to be that lucky.

[hfojvt]

43. you are missing a lot there

First, comparing averages to averages, and ignoring a bunch of conditions. First, as was mention, debt and interest expenses. Second, four or more years of lost wages. Third, distributions. Average C is higher than average H, but many people in the C distribution are below average in income and many people in H distribution are above average. Fourth, I got to the point in my job applications where I did not mention my degrees because employers might use that as a reason to not hire me.

As for being intentionally ignorant, there's not much that you can get at college that you can't get for $1.75 in late chahges at the public librahry. Plus, I got her numbah. How do you like them apples?

[Taitertots]

46. I've seen the graphs that explain

How within a few years the increased average more than pays for the loans and lost wages. The people who are far from the average are anomalies. The standard deviation is small enough that those people are in such tiny numbers that it is irrelevant.

"there's not much that you can get at college that you can't get for $1.75 in late charges at the public librahry"
A fictional character who would in real life represent a less than an irrelevant fraction of people who have the intellectual fortitude to make that statement true. No one is getting a university level education from a public library. There are plenty of people diluted enough to think they can, but absolutely none doing it.

Oh, using a fictional character to make your point, that is pretty low.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

49. The typical college graduate averages 20k more than the just a high school graduate.

So just in case you're stuck on the math, that 100k loan would have paid itself off in 5 years or so.