Bill Moyers calls for reinstitution of the Draft

[Ron Green]

if more troops are approved for Afghanistan. In a heartfelt comment at the end of his program last night, he made the case that the powers who so blithely send young troops into war would behave differently if their own kin were at risk. I have always agreed with this position, that anything less than universal service is a slippery slope toward a mercenary force.

What do you think?



edit for tpyo

[Taverner]

1. Against it - the draft is a breach of our civil liberties

[JVS]

14. +1

[ThomWV]

2. I note my (longtime) agreement by recommending your post.

[unhappycamper]

3. I'm all for it but the economic draft is working quite nicely, thank you. n/t

[wordpix]

95. is that sarcasm? If not, I totally disagree - this country is sending mostly poor,

uneducated young men to these wars. There is hardly a peep from the college campuses---much different from the Vietnam era, when the draft "brought the war home."

I agree with Moyers. Institute a draft and let's see how fast Congress figures out what to do in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and the rest.

[springhill]

117. I take it you have a son or daughter of draft age?

I'm guessing not, otherwise you would be as frightened as I am at the prospect of having a son killed to prove a point. Really, all those who are for the draft and have a son or daughter at the ready, sign in please. I'll bet there aren't too many.

[mattvermont]

4. I believe it would work

as a "modest proposal". If it were the only was to increase the ranks, there would be a rapid reduction in need.

[GreenStormCloud]

5. Solidly against it. N/T

[Oregone]

6. He makes quite an argument

While Id burn my draft card in delight, Im really not sure how Id feel about re-instating it. To allow the economy to send the neediest off to kill may exacerbate the situation

[barbtries]

7. i don't know how i feel about it

i have a 17-year-old. makes me pretty much opposed. i don't think i'm qualified to answer perhaps.

[Ruby the Liberal]

8. I am for it. People will think twice about starting these damn wars

if it looks like their family members may have to participate.

[arthritisR_US]

81. yep and the politicians kids go first and no deferments for the wealthy and well connected. n/t

[wordpix]

96. +1

[elocs]

9. I think that the American people have made it clear how they feel about Afghanistan.

Now if our own LBJ can only catch on.

[Obamanaut]

91. It doesn't matter what the people think/feel about Afghanistan, or any

-stan. The weasels who are piling up monumental debt for our grandkids to pay interest on will continue to do whatever they want.

And the people will continue to reelect them for full careers. With health care, and aircraft, and paid junkets (aka fact finding tours), and limousines, etc.

[Fumesucker]

10. In theory I would agree..

In practice we all know the powerful politician's kids will never be trigger pullers even if they by some remote chance get drafted.

It won't slow down the warmongers much if at all..

[ipaint]

11. I agree with him.

Out of sight out of mind and the very tiny percentage of americans bearing the full brunt of these unnecessary wars needs to be shared by all if they are to go on and on and on as is planned.

[JVS]

12. I can't believe how stupid some people are. Whoever thinks that the kin of the powerful would...

ever be at risk and won't simply be able to pursue "other prioties" has either not been paying attention to how things work in this country, or is dumber than a box full of rocks.

[underseasurveyor]

16. Hear Here

Agreed!

Heeeello rocks?

[Cleita]

23. All the Kennedys served and one died in WWII.

Most of the older members of Congress have served in the military. Sure a lot of them got safe assignments like Bush, who was able to get into the Texas National Guard but many rich kids were drafted up until now.

[underseasurveyor]

33. The Kennedys were the exception

not the rule.

[Cleita]

38. Not really. All my cousins served and my aunt and uncle were

multi-millionaires. Also, although I went to an all girls high school with really rich kids from the movie business, all the brothers and male relatives who were deemed fit to serve had to go into the military and some went into combat. Although it's true that rich people's kids are less likely to serve in combat because their parents can pull strings, many of them did anyway like John Kerry. Admittedly the wealthy have more options to cover their asses than the working class, but they still had to do their duty in the end. The only person that I knew who was able to get out of the draft was a young man who was a conscientious objector because of his religious beliefs, but he had to spend those years in community service earning minimum wage and he was from a working class background, not wealthy.

[underseasurveyor]

43. That's all well and good and I appreciate that

however aside from a few well known actors and the occasional politician that have enlisted and I'm sure numerous unknown wealthy people that have served... For the most part as far as the politicians go, the very ones that MAKE these decisions 'for us' are not going to be encouraging their offspring, friends and relatives to enlist nor are they going to be the ones that get drafted.

Like I said The entire Kennedy Family was the exception not the rule.

[Cleita]

49. You don't seem to get what the draft is.

Every male is drafted regardless of their circumstances. If you enlist in another military service other than the Army, then you will be considered as having done your duty. Many boys did this because there was a lesser chance that they would be put in combat situations. If the other services rejected you then you would still be stuck in the Army as long as the Army felt you were physically fit. The term 4F was that the Army deemed you unfit. Many draftees tried to get a 4F classification, so they wouldn't have to go in. In had nothing to do with their family's money. No one can buy their way out of the draft. It netted every male of a certain age demography. During the Vietnam War, many soldiers and marines went AWOL when they learned that they were to be shipped out. Anti-war activists gave them shelter so that they wouldn't be caught. Many found their way to Canada until they were given amnesty years later and many defected to Canada before they were sent to boot camp. It had nothing to do with being rich.

[underseasurveyor]

54. I do fully understand what the draft is... I'll copy and repeat what JVS said.

". I can't believe how stupid some people are. Whoever thinks that the kin of the powerful would...

ever be at risk and won't simply be able to pursue "other prioties" has either not been paying attention to how things work in this country, or is dumber than a box full of rocks."



Helloooooo rocks? Pay attention!

[Cleita]

64. Isn't this a kind of circumventious way of calling me stupid?

Of course the name calling always starts when you lose the argument.

[underseasurveyor]

69. Of course I'm not calling you names

But clearly it's obvious you aren't and haven't been paying attention to how the real world works.

I was around in the 60's and I know all too well about "The Draft." Your earlier 'all-in-the-know.. holy-than-thou' attitude could be considered far more offensive if I didn't find it so gosh-darn obtuse.

[uppityperson]

84. Wrong. Buying your way out of serving was possible by the rich and powerful.

"Many draftees tried to get a 4F classification, so they wouldn't have to go in. In had nothing to do with their family's money. No one can buy their way out of the draft."

Wrong. For instance, Rush's knee injury and pilonidal cyst.

Buying your way out by remaining in college was also another scam for those with enough money.

[dflprincess]

98. All 4 of Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt's sons were in the service during WWII

two of them were in Pacific combat zones when FDR died and refused the offer to be sent home as they said their father would "expect us to do our duty as he did his".

One of the Roosevelt sons was involved in the same mission Joseph Kennedy, Jr. was killed on.

[underseasurveyor]

103. Ok, ok another exceptional political family... good

Any more prominent political/power families to add to the list...

[cherokeeprogressive]

58. "many rich kids were drafted up until now." The draft was discontinued 36 years ago.

So I don't quite understand what point you're trying to make. No kids, rich or not, have been drafted since 1973.

[Cleita]

63. True and I apologize for my bad English and I hope you know that I

know that. But up until then every male in this country was drafted. Whether they were rejected in the process or served was another matter but EVERYONE had to register for what I believe is called a selective service card, the first step in being drafted. I believe young men still have to register but they are not drafted today.

[anonymous171]

37. That's the point. It would awaken the masses. nt

[JVS]

75. The rulers don't give a fuck about what the masses think. Consider health care.

[underseasurveyor]

105. It hasn't worked yet.

Didn't work then won't work now. There'd be protesters in the street again just like in the 60's and what happened anyway? 58 THOUSAND+ DIED and that doesn't account for the loss of life on the other side. What makes you imagine that a draft would wake the masses now? Christ the masses are more complacent and catatonic now then they were 40 years ago.

Fuck, wake the masses... my ass. I'd be more inclined to believe in the invisible sky being before I ever believed that the masses would wake up for a damn draft!

[ipaint]

39. The war needs to become personal for the majority of americans.

The rich always weasel out. Let them and make sure everyone knows about it. But until more people experience the loss and tragedy first hand it won't ever end. This is about permanent war, not a few year excursion and some politically correct nation building.
If this is the way we want to go then everyone should be expected to sacrifice.

The perpetually comfortable upper middle classes will never allow their special sons and daughters to be fodder for empire after all that's for poor people who have no choices in life.

Draft them.

[JVS]

74. It does not need to become personal. Our leaders need to stop being idiots and realize it's too...

expensive for us to continue these wars. Ideally they'd have consciences and would end it for that reason, but that ship has sailed and sunk.

[underseasurveyor]

107. I've lost two.. Yea it's personal enough thank you very much

And I wouldn't wish this agony of loss on any fucking body else. This is a club that best left with no members. And if you would invite your friends to join in and be a part of this so-called 'loss and tragedy club' then you are a selfish sick freak. Join up and sacrafice yourself since your so high on your own pompous self-righteous bleeting.

Fuck now I'm fucking pissed off as hell. I miss my family damn it! They and others did NOT have to die get it?!!

The perpetually COMFORTABLE MIDDLE CLASS? Just what fucking planet do you live on? Perpetually comfortable? That class almost ceases to exisit because of those rat bastard republicans.
The economy? HELLOOO!

It's an illegal ill-gotten war... REMEMBER THAT!!!!

[GreenPartyVoter]

42. I love Bill Moyers, but you are absolutely right about the rich and powerful

getting their own kids out of harm's way. I refuse to sacrifice my beautiful children to the war machine, so there is no way I would support bringing back the draft.

[Jakes Progress]

77. It's not the offspring of power

but the children of millions of voters who would be the point. Joe the Plumber and Matt the Frat might be less inclined to volunteer American youth if it was their son or their ass that might be sitting in the humvee with defective armor.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

13. Then Bill Moyers Is An Idiot.

Anyone calling for the draft in a SERIOUS manner, are basically morons.

[Ron Green]

72. Do you understand the point he's making, or

are you just into calling him names?

[uppityperson]

85. +1

[Adsos Letter]

15. I agree, in part...

I am not convinced that the "powers that be", while de jure subject to draft would ever be de facto subject to the draft, because of their access to privilege, unless some hefty stipulations regarding deferment were in place and enforced.

Having said that; I agree with Moyers in principle. The shift from "other people's kids" to "everyone's kids" might just be enough to turn the grumbling into concrete action on the part of parents, grandparents, wives, siblings, etc.

I do believe it became a major factor in ending Vietnam, from the home front's perspective at least (although the draft was there from the outset, the futility of that war made the draft, and the abuses of deferment, one of the domestic pressures indispensable to ending support for that conflict).

[Alexander]

17. Yeah, because Bush, Cheney and Lieberman all served in Vietnam.

:sarcasm:

Rich people will always find a way to avoid military service if they want to.

Even in the Civil War, you could pay $300 and somebody else would take your place.

[AzDar]

18. As the mother of two young boys, I have a better idea : Get The Fuck Out Of The Quagmires We're In,

And Don't Get Involved In Any New Ones.


You HEARING me, President Obama?

[Warpy]

19. Bill Moyers is wrong

Support for Vietnam didn't drop among the parents of draftees until the bitter end when it was obvious the war had been lost for a very long time.

I don't want to see a draft in this country unless this country is being attacked.

I don't ever want to see a draft enacted under any other circumstance because it would give madmen like Cheney access to a large supply of our children for their wars of corporate convenience.

The only reason the whole Middle East isn't in flames right now is because the last administration didn't have enough manpower to do it.

The Pentagon told them "no."

We very wisely got rid of the draft after Vietnam as a curb on presidential imperial ambition. So far, it's worked.

Moyers also needs to consider that for the first time in a long time, enlistment is up. The military is meeting its requirement for new troops without a draft.

[Cleita]

21. I think the real problem here is that the Constitution states that only

Congress can declare war. This has been ignored far too long by too many Presidents and war has been used as an excuse to enrich Wall Street and keep the brass in the Pentagon getting their promotions. The reason enlistment is up is our huge unemployment. It seems to be the only jobs available. If we pull out of our present wars, there won't be any need for new enlistees. It's really a nasty business IMHO.

[Warpy]

28. Right on all counts

and the way Presidents have of declaring wars of corporate convenience in defiance of Congress is why we need to keep a smaller, all volunteer army.

The biggest challenge for the next generation will be to manage to rein in the Pentagon. We can no longer afford their appetites for ridiculously over engineered hardware. We can't afford that welfare office for the Koch brothers. The biggest mistake we could make right now is giving that bunch unlimited access to our children again.

It is a nasty business. The worst thing we could do is make it nastier.

[Cleita]

20. I am for a citizen's militia rather than a volunteer army, but I think a choice should be

given to either serve in the military or serve in the Peace Corp after boot camp. I bet you the peace corp will get the majority of enrollees leaving the business of waging war to those who really like to do it. Also, back when we had a draft, you could enlist in other branches of the service other than the army if you wanted to. Other than the Marine Corps, those who enlisted in the Navy or Air Force were less likely to see combat than the draftees into the army. I also think women should be drafted too. Of course pregnant women would have to be excused to do their service later when they weren't pregnant. I think a year or two of service for your country once in your lifetime is a good thing. I think some military training is a good thing in case one has to pick up a gun in defense of their country in times of crisis.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

22. I believe one of the reasons they ended the draft was to stop the protests

They wanted to take the massive protests by young people during Vietnam and the media attention they generated out of the equation in the case of future wars. That's not say that it stopped protests (such as the massive demonstrations preceding the Iraq war) but there isn't a sense of connection to far flung wars in the young generation now that there was when kids were getting drafted left and right and saw themselves as potential combattants and participants. Nowadays, it seems that only the close family members of the 60,000 troops in Afghanistan or the 40,000 in Iraq feel closely connected to the conflicts.

I think the draft is a good idea because it would force the nation to think twice about future military adventures.

[Cleita]

24. I think you are absolutely right on this if I remember what happened back

then correctly.

[uppityperson]

86. They were already working at getting out of vietnam and ending the draft

How about this? Instead of trying to get them to agree on passing a draft that would be totally equitable, even for those passing whatever legislation is needed, we try to get them to pass legislation to END THE NEED for a draft?

If anyone truly thinks it would be possible to pass a totally equitable draft without ways for rich/powerful to get their kids out of it, INSTEAD pass legislation ENDING THE NEED!

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

111. Who is they and when are you talking about?

The protests started really cranking up in 1967, six years before the end. I know it, as I was a part of it on my high school campus. You heard massive chants like "hey, hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?". The government desperately needed bodies and had its mind more on escalating the war, rather than ending it.

I don't know precisely what you mean about ending the "need" for a draft. I agree that we should never let the executive branch send in troops anywhere on the notion that it's a police action. The war power should remain with our Congress. But I think there will be wars that we need to fight, wars brought upon us, like World War II. I think a draft that is as equitable as possible, eliminating exemptions as much as possible will allow citizens through the ballot box and the protest to decide which wars are necessary and which wars are merely military adventures that don't serve the national interest.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

25. Their own kin still won't be at risk.

[Posteritatis]

26. Doesn't he call for the reinstitution of the draft annually? Or am I thinking another rep? (nt)

[Brother Buzz]

29. Bill Moyers holds no public office

[GreenPartyVoter]

41. Charlie Rangel

[Posteritatis]

47. Ah! That's who I was thinking. (nt)

[Brother Buzz]

27. The late Col David Hackworths view on draftees

"....Historically draftees have kept the military on the straight and narrow. By calling a spade a spade, they keep it clean. Without their "careers" to think about, they can't be easily bullied or intimidated as Regulars; their presence prevents the elitism that otherwise might allow a Regular army to become isolated from the values of the country it serves. Draftees are not concerned for the reputation of their employer, the Army (in Vietnam they happily blew the whistle an everything from phony valor awards to the secret bombings of Laos and Cambodia); a draftee, citizens' army, so much a part of the history of America, is an essential part of a healthy democracy, one in which everyone pays the price Of admission."

I was young dumb draftee and agree with Hackworth's sentiments. I also fumed when Rumsfeld told me. "...draftees had added "no value", no advantage really, to the United States armed services...", but I'm strongly against reinstating the draft.

[earth mom]

30. Totally agree with Moyers. A draft will stop the war quick. nt

[FredStembottom]

31. 1000% NO!

My 2 boys are draft age. And while I would have been proud to see them join up... in the past,
I will not accept them being drafted into Dick Cheney's torture, humiliation and bizarre sexual fetish machine.

I will not allow them to fight in 2 wars launched on lies.

Mr. Moyers, there is only one option when an anti-constitutional gang has left behind 2 illegal wars that have been prosecuted using illegal tactics: end them.

Bring the troops home. Purge the military. Hit "reset".

Then..... we'll talk about a draft.

[PuraVidaDreamin]

61. My two boys are also draft age

But I agree that we should have a draft. Would I let my kids go? NO WAY! I'd be out there on the streets
with the masses who would finally wake up and start resisting the robber baron chicken hawks.
It's the only way to stop them.

[FredStembottom]

108. Wow.....

I couldn't gamble on that working. Your kids and mine could be long gone before any street-success appeared.:scared:

[tularetom]

32. From personal experience I have to agree with Moyers

I was drafted in 1960 and it totally pissed me off. I had no particular goals in life, I was 19, driving a propane truck and partying every night. But to me at the time the regimentation of being in the army totally sucked. I tried to get my dad, who knew everybody on the local draft board, to get me out of it. He refused to even lift a finger and off I went. I was discharged before Vietnam was much more than a blip on the radar screen. I didn't have a very distinguished military career, but I did discover that I actually had some ambition, and when I got out, I used my benefits to help pay for a college education. And later on I was able to get financing to purchase a home with no money down through the VA program.

I realize the benefit situation is a lot less attractive now than it was in those days, and I also have to take into consideration that there were no hostilities going on anywhere in the world that would have gotten my ass shot at. But I have to say, I needed a push in order to grow up and the army did provide that.

Looking back from age 68, it's hard for me to visualize a kid any more aimless than I was then and if it got me on the right path, it would work for anybody.

[Cleita]

40. If we had a draft, I believe the benefit situation would improve because

people would demand it who don't now because it doesn't personally affect them.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

34. I'm a vet who fought the draft in the '60s. We were wrong.

Giving the government and pentagon a force of volunteer cannon-fodder just makes them follow the "use it or lose it" strategy of short-cuts and the allure of simple solutions.

[proteus_lives]

35. I think they should.

You want the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to end? Bring back the draft.

[anonymous171]

36. Yep. If the people want an empire, then they should have to fight to preserve it

The only exceptions should be for work and family. No education deferments.

[shadowknows69]

44. I have to agree with Moyers. Until the elite's family's are sent to the grinder

The war machine will keep rolling. Sadly, I also have no doubt they'd find a way to keep the "right" people out of harms way.


ETA: easy for me to say being 40 and of no real use to the military due to physical limitations. They could throw my fat ass out there for bait I suppose.

[mrmpa]

57. The great equalizer

Military service in the past was an equalizer of men. No matter the economic status of the person he would be drafted, to serve alongside those of other economic and cultural statuses. The all volunteer military has eradicated this equalization

What I worry about a draft in 2009 is what might occur. This generation of young people if drafted, I think, would be a headache to the military judicial system. Too many young people have the opinion "that you're not the boss of me" and this would carry over into their behavior in the military via insubordination, assaults, etc. What occurs in many urban school districts would carry over into the military.

[Greybnk48]

45. And the family members of Congresspersons go first, no deferments.

Absolutely.

[spoony]

46. God dammit that is NOT the way to end the war

This argument comes up every so often, as if our leaders would a) allow their children to be sent to war and b) magically care more about the lives they so blithely spend as if you can print more like money.

Throwing more wood in the fire doesn't make it burn out!

[Hubert Flottz]

48. I have a better idea...

FLOWER POWER...it worked before

[blues90]

50. I'm not sure.

I was sent a train ticket in 1967 to go in for the physical. This was in Chicago. That one day for me gave me a taste even if just a small taste of what life would be like in the military. Everyone felt they were under the armies control for that day because once on the train we had to follow all their rules until the end of the day.

That feeling I know , I know how bad Vietnam was.

I do think with the draft it made you think even more about war now because everyone in a certain age group were in a sense in a state of alert. It did get all parents involved and you had a life altering experience facing you.

These days are not at all the same, society is not the same, the economy and the job situation is no where near the same.

I had some contact with people in their 20's where I worked and once we attacked Iraq and I asked a few what they though nd the response was they did not think about it, some looked me like they did not know there was a war. That is by no means to say many people that age and younger as well as older don't think about it. There just is not that pending greetings letter to change your life in one day.

[nini]

51. I agree and disagree

the rich won't send their kids - they rarely do. They're chickenhawks and will get out of it.

However, it would be a good way to get the masses to pay attention and turn against these BS wars - if they're own are at risk it then becomes personal and not so easy to ignore.


The way it is now it's like it's not happening because most of us aren't experiencing the effects personally.

[justabob]

62. that is pretty much where I am

The draft is the only way I see to make the People pay attention to wars and related issues... and stay out of them. People wouldn't be nearly so Rah Rah Go Get'em! if they had to worry about THEIR number being drawn, or their children's.

[Vinca]

52. I'm opposed to the draft, but maybe it's the only way to get these

idiotic wars to end. They go on and on and on and on and for what? More lives lost and more money down the rathole.

[MH1]

53. Bill Moyers is EXACTLY right on that point.

There are many other reasons to support universal national service (not just military service mind you) rather than a draft, but I would support a draft if that were politically viable. It isn't now, but maybe if more people like Moyers speak out someday people will get it.

Alot less people will be pro war when their own kids have to go.

Oh, and there should be a higher bar for deferment for children of congress critters. :evilgrin: ok just kidding on that one.

[cliffordu]

55. I support universal service in whatever capacity people can serve - military,

civilian conservation corps, candy stripers, whatever, for a year or two after high school. '

[cherokeeprogressive]

56. While I agree with what Moyers says almost all the time, on this one he shoots himself in the foot.

So Moyers wants to round up tens of thousands of young people who represent America's future and turn them into unwilling cannon fodder in order to prove a point. Does MOYERS have young relatives he would gladly see this happen to?

Let's take tens of thousands of our young, who probably wouldn't have squat to do with the military of their own volition, and send them to their deaths.

Here's my take on his idea: Fill the military with conscripts and you dilute the pool of those willing to fight. You'll have thousands spread across Afghanistan whose first instinct is to crawl deeper into the foxhole rather than shoot back at the enemy. That alone will accelerate the pace of American casualties, since those who WILL fight will be tasked with taking care of those who won't, and wind up wounded or worse.

Wrong, Bill.

[glen123098]

59. Absolutely not

Our culture is enough militarized as it is. All a draft will do is give more cannon fodder to the powers that be. I am of draft age and I wouldn't join the military under any condition. I refuse to kill people, Id rather rot in a military prison.

[BeHereNow]

60. The draft would be as corrupt as every other inch of our government.

The fucktards who "support the troops" would make
sure their kids, members of the elite, were not drafted.

You know it's true.

BHN

[Cleita]

65. So you use freeptard argument that the government can't

run anything right to make your point?

[BeHereNow]

66. No, the point I am making is the draft would not include the rich upper class.

That is not a "freetard" point, it is a fact.

BHN

[Cleita]

67. If they go back to the way it was done between WWII and when it was ended, then

it does cover everyone with out exception. Why do you think all those boys defected to Canada? Canada gave them refuge because it was an unjust war. Years later the draft dodgers and AWOLs in Canada were given amnesty but it was because they couldn't get out of doing their military duty otherwise.

[BeHereNow]

68. I don't think it would be done that way these days.

I simply don't. The MIC has gotten too powerful since then.

And I don't believe Canada is going to accept any draft dodgers.
The BFEE is simply to entrenched there.

[JVS]

76. They won't! Basta!

[uppityperson]

87. And were those the kids of the rich, powerful, or legislators?

Giving them more bodies to throw into the mix won't solve anything. Get them to stop the fucking war will.

[hack89]

89. We don't need an Army that big

we couldn't afford an Army that big. So many draft eligible people would not serve.

[superduperfarleft]

80. Wow, you sure are naive.

You really think a draft wouldn't automatically exclude the rich and connected?

But don't let me stand in the way of calling someone with whom you disagree a freeper. :eyes:

[tomp]

70. fuck the draft. period.

fuck charles rangel for bringing the idea up. fuck bill moyers (who i usually think is great). and fuck anybody else who promotes the impressing into service of anyone for imperialist war. the rich will never serve. there will be loopholes, and if you don't know that you don't know shit.

the only good thing about the draft is that it will rouse the youth, but there have to be better ways of doing that.

[theHandpuppet]

71. Reinstating the draft would be the quickest way to end these damn wars

When the chickenhawks and children of the wealthy and privileged have to face going off to war, then the wars will come to an end.

[JoeyT]

73. Usually Moyer is right: Not this time.

By the way, don't just worry about your boys being drafted. It's pretty likely it'd hit young women as well.
Just what we need, a whole generation of people with PTSD. Yeah, that will make the country stable.

The only people I've ever found willing to consider the draft a good thing are the ones that won't be drafted themselves and have no sons or daughters that would be. If you DO have a son or daughter that would be drafted and you think it's a good idea, at least you don't have a conflict of interest. You're just a shitty parent that would sacrifice their children for ideology. If you personally would be drafted and think it's a good idea, then join up and shut up. Problem solved.
Fortunately I'm neither drafting age nor do I have children or family that are. I just empathize with those that do.

[tucsonlib]

100. I Was Drafted In 1970

I, along with tens of thousands of other young men, refused induction. Point is, if there were a draft, you or your children could always simply refuse to comply with the law. Thanks in large part to the draft resisters, deserters, active military and war veterans who participated in the anti-war movement, the tide of public opinion was turned against the Vietnam war. This could never have happened with an all-volunteer army.

[Ron Green]

112. This is an excellent point, and what I think would actually happen

if the Draft were to be reinstated. It's true that all Americans need to be involved in the War Machine of our country, and that includes resisting the War Machine, and holding it accountable to our higher purpose of peace.

[spanone]

78. if our mission is endless war...draft the rich the poor alike

[Nikki Stone1]

79. A draft: but only for the children of those making 1 million dollars or more a year

and for the children of ALL members of Congress, the Pentagon, the Executive Branch and the Supreme Court.

Oh, and yeah, draft Arnold. We need him gone. You can have Maria too. :)

[uppityperson]

88. Exactly. And will they pass that? Be faster to pass legislation to just end the conflicts.

[Odin2005]

82. I'm all for a draft. It's better for Democracy.

A military of conscripted citizen-soldiers is better for the survival of a democratic society than a professional military, and certainly better than mercenaries.

[uppityperson]

83. If you can't trust them to get OUT of Afgh, WHY would you trust them to make an equitable draft?

Seriously?

"the powers who so blithely send young troops into war would behave differently if their own kin were at risk. " Well, yes, they might, but that will never happen. Ever. They will figure out a way to get their own kin out of it.

If they won't just stop sending young troops blithely into war, HOW THE HELL would you expect them to make a draft to endanger their own?

[boppers]

90. That's exactly the wrong direction.

The constitution's framers wanted a voluntary service, and only in times of war... not a standing army. Standing armies tend to start needless wars, and a public without them can rapidly militarize only when actually needed.

So, don't bring back the draft, get rid of the massive military, and its needless wars with it.

[Overseas]

92. De-privatize the military. Prosecute the war profiteers.

Stop over-paying billions to contractors who electrocute troops in the shower, serve moldy food, and seem to have even murdered people. (Whoops).

The Cheeeny Rummy Plan to privatize military services so we would be able to wage more wars without using a draft has worked well for them-- they've reaped vast personal rewards. But it has been a disaster for the rest of us. Allowed the Bush Gang to veer off of OBL's tail to destroy Iraq with great shock & awe and stay there and in Afghanistan for far too long. And pile up huge deficits and war crimes.

When the full range of military services were done in-house, then soldiers not cut out for combat could cook for the troops, or do the wiring on the base, or other jobs. People could serve their country in many ways, and would emerge from military services with a broader range of skills to apply to the job market after leaving the military.

Privatizing the military has allowed the administrations to step up the war efforts without needing to use the draft. That has prevented more vast citizen unrest regarding our military ventures-- but at the cost of corruption, routine cost overruns that have drained our treasury, and reckless practices by contractors that have been absolved from prosecution in some cases.

While I understand those who object to people suggesting poor President Obama be the one to bring back the draft, I also appreciate the more serious reflection it would add to our deliberations about whether to increase our use of hard warfare, or find other means to overcome our enemies.

I'd like us to deprivatize our military, prosecute all cases of fraud and violations of international law by contractors and redeploy our remaining troops more effectively.

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. Not only Afghanistan. The only way

some will stop so-blithely sending our kids to war is if we have a universal draft... no damn exceptions.

The only exception when it comes into place is... you have a semester left in college... you can choose. Go into the force RIGHT NOW as an Enlisted, or finish your degree and go into the army as an Officer... lord knows we will need them.

And spare me the civil rights argument, if this war is so-critical, well then, I want full participation by the society.

PERIOD!

With all your benefits come responsibilities and that includes SERVICE and CIVIC VIRTUE.

[MadHound]

94. Ah yes, let's provide the military with more cannon fodder

So they can continue their wars of empire and oil indefinitely.

Stupid idea.

[wordpix]

97. you don't get Moyers' idea at all----so I guess it's OK to make only poor kids the cannon fodder

in your world, right? We'll just stay with the status quo, provide a poor education, no jobs and no hope to poor kids, and they'll keep having only one way to get a leg up ---the military.

You keep your status quo---I say bring the war home with a draft. That is the only way to wake up the sheeple, Congress and the admin. to figure out a way to make peace.

[MadHound]

99. You and Moyer are living in an alternative reality

Do you honestly think that if we instituted a draft that the children of the rich and well connected would actually have to serve or see front line combat?

Let's look at Vietnam, the children of the rich and well connected were able to either weasel cushy posts in Europe or stateside, or they were able to avoid the draft altogether. Who were the vast majority of front line troops, the ones who put their asses on the line day in, day out? Oh, yeah, the poor.

Do you honestly think that it would be any different now? If so, I've got some fine land to sell you in the Everglades.

There are also other options for the poor kids today. I was one of those poor kids at one time, in fact I started my adult life homeless for a couple of years. I could have gone into the military, but didn't due to my own moral objections. Instead I found other ways to work my way up in this world. There are others who are also doing that today, so the military isn't the only option for the poor in this country.

No, all a draft will do is provide unlimited fodder for the military so that they can continue these illegal, immoral war indefinitely.

[uppityperson]

101. here are simple questions.

1) Do you sincerely believe Congress would pass draft legislation so their kids, friends, etc, did not have a way out?

2) If you believe that, why would they not just take the easier step and end the conflicts?

[underseasurveyor]

104. What if the sheeple do not wake up?

What then?

Because it sure hasn't happened yet. I've been waiting for the damn sheeple to wake up since viet nam.

[flyarm]

102. early in the Vietnam war my dad was a horrible hawk..until the day my brother got his draft notice..

he got number 12 in the draft by birth date lottery.

I fought tooth and nail with my dad that it was a war of greed and there was no benefit to the war..it was only making the Military Complex a shit load of money and power.

The day of that lottery ..I walked into my mom and dad's room and my dad was sitting crying..understand my dad was 16 yrs old when Pearl Harbor was struck..on Dec 29th his 17th birthdsy he enlisted in the SEE BEES..as his dad served in WWI on the USS Arizona.

My dad was a man's man..and here i found him crying ..he knew that day it was all wrong, and that he had been wrong to support that criminal war.

It wasn't wrong to him when other people's kids went to Vietnam..it only became wrong when his son had to go, and when our neighbors kids had to go.

The day of that lottery draft..it became very real to him..and he had to rethink about a war he went to that he had never discussed and he refused to talk about in any way.

He knew that day what his son ( my brother) was going to face and the lifelong horror his son would have to live with.

That day my dad became an activist against the war.

[renate]

106. I love Bill Moyers almost without reservation, but I disagree vehemently

Sacrificing millions of lives--if not literally, then practically, and even in a best-case scenario each draftee loses a few productive years--to try to persuade a bunch of congressional asshats of the foolishness of war is, well, foolish.

Yes, the powers that be would probably be singing a different tune about war if their kids and grandkids couldn't get deferments (and therefore nobody else could either). Is that the ONLY way to persuade them? I doubt it. But it's certainly the most emotionally costly and I think it's a price that's WAY too high to pay considering that an effective, if expensive, advertising campaign that would put members of Congress in fear of reelection would achieve the same goal.

Just like it's easy for Congress members to send other people's kids to war, I suspect it's easier for people without draft-age kids to suggest this tactic. Please forgive me for saying that, if you have draftable kids yourself--if you do, I sincerely admire your commitment to getting troops out of Afghanistan despite the personal cost.

[redqueen]

109. Seems to me it was the draft, along with soldiers refusing to follow orders

once overseas, that ended the Vietnam war.

[RobinA]

110. In Total Agreement

Bring the war to everybody's back yard. No exception. Sure, you can sign up for something other than the Army. 4F? Then you do something you can do, you don't get out of jail free. Females too. Forcing females into combat who don't want to be there would probably be more trouble than its worth, but with both guys and girls who want to kick ass in combat, no one might have to be there who doesn't want to be. I know nothing about the military, but what Hackworth says (quoted below) makes pretty good sense to me.

[Romulox]

113. Only if women are subject to it, too. nt

[FVZA_Colonel]

114. Well, not even Alexander the Great could conquer that land.

Either way, we'd be screwed.

[mule_train]

115. I saw it, and it was chilling - he seemed like he could barely get the words out

I'm not saying I agree with him, but i do understand where he is coming from

he's saying 'let the country go to war with the soldier, or bring the soldier home'

remember, he was in LBJ's white house during vietnam - this was very personal for him

[defendandprotect]

116. No -- Rather let's keep working on de-funding these wars . . . .