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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:15 PM
Original message
We've been tricked (again).
Edited on Sat Oct-31-09 12:19 PM by branders seine
Last Halloween, many of us were working, giving our blood, sweat and tears to get the current Democratic domination of the House, the Senate and the White House. Barely less than a year ago, we voted en masse for change--real change--change we believed in. And we finally overcame the republican tricks and got the biggest treat of the last 30 years--victory. Sweeping victory. A real mandate. For the first time in 30 years, we had our once-in-a-generation opportunity to mold the future of this country in a positive way. We gave our all. For what?

We bought and paid for the full seven-course meal. What they are giving us is a moldy half-eaten Big Mac they scavenged from a dumpster. Better than starving, you say? Don't dare complain, because they and their blogosphere sock puppets will accuse you of being an idealistic ingrate.

Banks and Wall Street speculators are more out of control than ever, rewarding themselves lavishly on our money and our chilren's and grandchildren's money, all the while (as Michael Moore said) relentlessly making the world worse with every second they work. There has been no substantive regulation of banks or speculators, no change in bushian tax policy, and Goldman Sachs continues to own our Treasury. Obama relinquished any leadership role in this arena the day he chose Larry Summers to be part of his team.

We are getting no real health care reform. That should be clear by now to everyone with one working brain cell. As warned here again and again, we are getting the least possible re-arrangement of doomed deck chairs that the politicians can pretend is "reform." Obama, as soon as he killed single payer back back in February, relinquished any leadership role on this issue. Congress, with a scant handful of exceptions, is openly owned by the insurance lobby, so the outcome was inevitable I suppose.

We still occupy Iraq, and now seem destined to escalate our occupation of Vietghanistan. Obama looks good and noble and humble while somberly saluting on the tarmac at Dover, but Petraeus and his boy McChrystal, not Obama, are leading this agenda.

The "recovery" is a falsely optimistic measure of a temporary re-inflation of the phony Wall Street bubble of the last eight years. It won't last. Unemployment--even the grossly understated government propaganda number--shows zero sign of improving. Middle class jobs are gone, and they aren't coming back. Ever. The disparity between the haves and the have-nots widens with every passing second. The job-creation statistics from the paltry "stimulus" have been shown to be wildly exaggerated. Those of us who aren't already soon will be peasants in the largest third-world country since the collapsing Soviet Union.

But let's look on the bright side! The Obamas are beautiful. UFC is free on cable. We still have Dancing with the Stars, the Daily Show and Democratic Underground. KO and Rachel give 'em hell five nights a week. Woo hoo!

The politicians have carried out a fine masquerade, putting on a spirited school play, complete with demagogic (if over-acted) monologues, hyped-up psuedo-drama, and well-designed disguises. But the season of pretending now draws to a close, the masks come off, and we find that our trick or treat bag is empty. Except for that moldy bit of Big Mac. Happy fucking Halloween.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. "it's better because the dems suck less than Bush"
yeah, gotta keep that bar very low. :eyes:
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rusty fender Donating Member (442 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
3. I totally agree with you--
no one who can get elected president is strong enough to buck the system and really challenge the military/corpo/industrial complex. We are stuck on a crashing carnival ride from which we cannot extricate ourselves.
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Agree - though maybe you should have written "no one who they will let be elected president will
ever buck the system..."
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INdemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
48. I am still pissed because by rights John Kerry should have taken the oath
last January for a second term and we would not have been in this mess in the first place..And Kerry would not have bowed to the corporate mafia as Obama and his administration have done
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. and obama is not a pacifist
i know that may be hard for some people to grasp, but he never claimed to be against just war theory, and he made it abundantly clear that he thought the afghanistan war was justified. why would anybody expect obama to act like a pacifist? he said he thought afghanistan was justified and he'd do it right when he got in charge
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. defend his policy (if you can)
don't assume what any of us "expected"
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
28. i defend his policy (vis a vis afghanistan)
but that's not the point. the point is that nobody should have expected anything less from obama in regards to afghanistan. he made it crystal clear that he intended to fight afghanistan vigorously and that he thought it was justified.

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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #28
45. perhaps then, you can explain to us what that policy is...
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #45
98. here it is
Edited on Sat Oct-31-09 08:16 PM by paulsby
why would i explain to what the policy is, when i can simply go to ... wait for it... the policy.


here's an excerpt. you can read it at
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-the-President-on-a-New-Strategy-for-Afghanistan-and-Pakistan/


and here's the white paper
http://www.whitehouse.gov/assets/documents/afghanistan_pakistan_white_paper_final.pdf

So let me be clear: Al Qaeda and its allies -- the terrorists who planned and supported the 9/11 attacks -- are in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Multiple intelligence estimates have warned that al Qaeda is actively planning attacks on the United States homeland from its safe haven in Pakistan. And if the Afghan government falls to the Taliban -- or allows al Qaeda to go unchallenged -- that country will again be a base for terrorists who want to kill as many of our people as they possibly can.
The future of Afghanistan is inextricably linked to the future of its neighbor, Pakistan. In the nearly eight years since 9/11, al Qaeda and its extremist allies have moved across the border to the remote areas of the Pakistani frontier. This almost certainly includes al Qaeda's leadership: Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri. They have used this mountainous terrain as a safe haven to hide, to train terrorists, to communicate with followers, to plot attacks, and to send fighters to support the insurgency in Afghanistan. For the American people, this border region has become the most dangerous place in the world.
But this is not simply an American problem -- far from it. It is, instead, an international security challenge of the highest order. Terrorist attacks in London and Bali were tied to al Qaeda and its allies in Pakistan, as were attacks in North Africa and the Middle East, in Islamabad and in Kabul. If there is a major attack on an Asian, European, or African city, it, too, is likely to have ties to al Qaeda's leadership in Pakistan. The safety of people around the world is at stake.
For the Afghan people, a return to Taliban rule would condemn their country to brutal governance, international isolation, a paralyzed economy, and the denial of basic human rights to the Afghan people -- especially women and girls. The return in force of al Qaeda terrorists who would accompany the core Taliban leadership would cast Afghanistan under the shadow of perpetual violence.
As President, my greatest responsibility is to protect the American people. We are not in Afghanistan to control that country or to dictate its future. We are in Afghanistan to confront a common enemy that threatens the United States, our friends and our allies, and the people of Afghanistan and Pakistan who have suffered the most at the hands of violent extremists.
So I want the American people to understand that we have a clear and focused goal: to disrupt, dismantle and defeat al Qaeda in Pakistan and Afghanistan, and to prevent their return to either country in the future. That's the goal that must be achieved. That is a cause that could not be more just. And to the terrorists who oppose us, my message is the same: We will defeat you.
To achieve our goals, we need a stronger, smarter and comprehensive strategy. To focus on the greatest threat to our people, America must no longer deny resources to Afghanistan because of the war in Iraq. To enhance the military, governance and economic capacity of Afghanistan and Pakistan, we have to marshal international support. And to defeat an enemy that heeds no borders or laws of war, we must recognize the fundamental connection between the future of Afghanistan and Pakistan -- which is why I've appointed Ambassador Richard Holbrooke, who is here, to serve as Special Representative for both countries, and to work closely with General Petraeus to integrate our civilian and military efforts.
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gleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #98
100. This reminds me of something....
That would be the Domino Theory which was the ostensible reason for Viet Nam. It seems to be working just as well as Viet Nam did. A meat grinder for the troops who have to fight there with a seemingly endless outcome of nothingness, dead civilians who are not terrorists and who want foreign troops out of their country, and those mysterious disappearing terrorists who come and go in a ghostly fashion whenever things get too uncomfortable to be reported at home.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-01-09 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #98
112. That's no answer. That's a puff piece.
Yeah, there's a good idea. Increase the military might of Afghanistan and Pakistan.
TO WHAT END?

The best strategy is to follow the Brits and the USSR: Declare victory, and escape with our tails between our legs.

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27inCali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
105. I think he's been right about a lot of stuff
he's pushed through a lot of genuinely Liberal stuff that we wouldn't of gotten out of anyone else.

given all the problems we have -how many problems there are and how bad they are. I can't really imagine anyone being able to do much better.

if we are to be angry about the corporate takeover of America, we'd better look in the mirror a good long while instead of just projecting it all on Obama.

As though we could spend 30 something years fucking off and letting the corporations run this country into the ground and expect anyone to fix it in 9 months?

I personally see a guy working his ass off and a bunch of armchair quarterbacks sitting around attacking him ruthlessly for not doing it exactly the way they would.

So if you are so smart, and you know all the answers, please do, show us the way -if not, then get out of the way.

at least for me, criticism means shit if it ain't followed by clear alternatives. I hear a lot of bitching, but not a lot of problem solving.

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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
46. Then Obama should give the "peace prize" back. nt
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #46
55. touche'
Edited on Sat Oct-31-09 01:37 PM by branders seine
:patriot:
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #55
99. it's cute, but not on point
it's the nobel peace price, not the nobel pacifist prize.

there is a difference.

obama believes, and i agree, that in order to ensure peace (and tranquility) for now and the future, that we must face the enemy head-on.

defeat the enemy

http://www.whitehouse.gov/assets/documents/afghanistan_pakistan_white_paper_final.pdf

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azmouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
4. So just WHO do you think could have cleaned up the mess
in less time than Obama? Really. Who?
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Coming out strongly for single payer. ANYONE could do that
if he/she wanted it.
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azmouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
44. And what good would that do if it has no chance of being passed?
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #44
58. and what good would that do if it had the SAME chance of being passed
that the current crap has?
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27inCali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-01-09 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #58
107. not the same chances at all, that is utter BS
that's your emotional reality -not what's really going on.

there are political realities to deal with, like that this country isn't Liberal enough yet to get a lot of what the Liberal base wants, doesn't mean though that the country isn't moving left, just that it isn't quite there yet, I don't see though how clobbering a Liberal president 24/7 helps that process at all.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #44
62. Obama ran as the "leader". You know - "hope", "change", etc
He was going to change the political culture.

The "no chance of being passed" argument is an empty argument. Maybe if Obama had put those leadership skills he was telling us about into use, single payer could have become a reality. Or at least it would have become part of the general discourse. Instead, he didn't even let it come to the table. He was actively opposed - so I guess we'll never know if it had no chance, will we?
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
57. So just promoting the unachievable would have placated you?
That's idiotic. :crazy:
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. you assume failure and so never try.
that's idiotic.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #60
78. It's a very valid assumption
Look at where we are now - can you imagine a plan that would shut down the entire insurance industry? That's not just idiotic, it's insane.
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #78
81. have you ever been involved in a serious negotiation?
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. Insane
:crazy:
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-01-09 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #13
111. Agreed. Start by not compromising up front. nt
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. Kucinich could
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azmouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #15
42. I think you forgot this:
:sarcasm:


I am soooo not a fan of his.
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #42
67. Name another that has fought even half as much for the people...
I do like Dennis and I like all the things he has tried to do for us.
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #42
102. You don't seem to be a fan of anyone who actually VOTES like a Democrat
Why is that?
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27inCali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-01-09 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #15
108. oh god!
he's a great guy. I agree with him on just about everything, but he will never be president, for a multitude of reasons.

balls in our court to get some stuff done while we have majorities. But all the hard-lefties want us to sit on our hands and demand the moon instead of accomplishing something realistic.
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. Obama could have, for one.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
30. Yep he could have. If you google
"Illinois" + Senate race + Obama + You Tube + "Single Payer" you will see that just short time ago, Obama was a real progresive person holding true to his ideals.

Somehow or other that guy has disappeared.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #18
41. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
5. Aren't you the guy in the back row?


Still holding a grudge??

Get over it, sore loserman.
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. Aren't you what the guy in the back row is sitting on?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
6. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Chipper Chat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
9. Hell, the Obama presidency is only 11% over.
He's got 89% (EIGHTY-NINE PERCENT) of his term left to accomplish things. Cut him some slack.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Chipper Chat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #12
34. Yeah, I'll bet you're sorry.
This isn't the first time you've been very rude and insulting to me.
Why don't you learn to be civil and respect other DUers' opinions?
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. I don't recall ever corresponding with you before, and I think I would remember the teletubbies.
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
23. If we do not show real improvement by 2010
for real people, change will be a moot point.

can you defend what he *has* done instead of offering the same "it's only been six months, er nine months, er eleven months"? Is there *any* theoretical point at which you would hold him accountable for anything?
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
71. And we're are still 100% fucked.
Edited on Sat Oct-31-09 02:04 PM by BeHereNow
Can you tell me what is going to get better?
It all looks pretty much the same, heading for worse, to me.

BHN
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #9
97. Not really, he's got part of this next session to get anything substantive done,
then we have mid-term campaign season (nothing happens), followed by (possibly) another brief window to get it done and then we're back into campaign mode in the Whitehouse.

Basically he's almost half way through his first term and the rest is harder, so this is what we get.

FDR got the New Deal(s) in his first year, Obama saved the people that crashed the system in his. What a waste...:(


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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:37 PM
Original message
I hear your argument from Radical Right Wingers all the time.
Edited on Sat Oct-31-09 12:38 PM by ClassWarrior
"Obama was supposed to instantly make the world perfect..."

:eyes:

NGU.
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
31. I heard your logic from bush cheerleaders for eight years...
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #31
75. LOL... What logic is that?
Edited on Sat Oct-31-09 02:33 PM by ClassWarrior
Or is that just your way of saying, "I know you are, but what am I?"

NGU.
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #75
82. you are right.
Edited on Sat Oct-31-09 02:42 PM by branders seine
there was no logic there.

only a straw man with a soupcon of ad hominem for extra zing.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #82
89. Just making an observation. And apparently one that hit home, given...
...how much attention you're devoting to it.

NGU.
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DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
10. We?
The Royal We! You know, the editorial...

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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
11. Draft Grayson for President 2012.
I agree with everything you said. And as long as the people who voted for Obama continue to believe in the myth, he will ignore us or throw us a bone now and then to keep us quiet. ("I am GOING to overturn DADT!!!")

Obama's priority is already his reelection. If he thinks he can count on all those foot soldiers who got him elected to get out the vote for him in 2012, he's in for a shock. (It's not a threat, but he's disappointed.) I don't think it's too late for Obama to win us back, but time is a-wastin' and it sure looks like he'd sooner throw us under the bus than Joe Lieberman or Olympia Snowe.

Start a movement to Draft Grayson and put the fear of God in Obama.
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Auggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
16. It's not Obama. It's Congress.
House cleaning is still a major order of business
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
33. Bullshit!
It's all of them!

Obama was the first one to compromise, when he held the upper hand. Explain that logic, with trying to get the best Health Care Reform for the American People, rather than the fucking Insurance Industry.
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #33
50. Sadly, you're right.
We knew republicans would be the enemies of change.

We didn't expect active enemies among congressional democrats. Nor did we expect that Obama's only substantive action on health care would be to kill single payer before the debate ever even started. Since then he has been utterly passive.
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Auggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #33
93. Like Obama could wave a magic wand and everyone in Congress would obey...
get real
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #93
94. Congress gave George W. Bush what he wanted.
You at LEAST have to ASK for what you want.
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Auggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. Different circumstances, different politics, different Congress
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-01-09 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #93
113. HE NEVER EVEN TRIED.
The White House fiasco in August was horrendous. Recall in June, when the president demanded a bill from congress, in advance of the August recess? What did the White House do afterwards? Did it call people? Did it twist arms? Did it proposed the minimum requirements of a bill? DID IT SHOW THE SLIGHTEST BIT OF LEADERSHIP?

It did not. For this I blame Rahm and Obama. WIthout their deliberate refusal to push in June and July, and Obama's willingness to cut bad deals with Big Pharma, and to screw the public option, we'd already have universal health care.
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Auggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-01-09 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #113
115. How do we really know?
Maybe he did -- behind closed doors. Maybe it was decided -- or maybe he was told -- to back off. There are countless meetings and discussions between the Executive and Legislative branches that we'll never be privy too. Maybe this was the best deal he could engineer. Can anyone say we know for sure what happened? I can't.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
20. You completely fell for it - the progressives McCain and Palin lost
because you fell for the line that they were members of the GOP.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
21. Thats what happens when we elect a 1/2Republican...
...masquerading as a Liberal.


I went through your OP looking for an element that I could label as "an exaggeration" or "excessively gloomy", but could find nothing. None of the dissenters have cared to address anything in the OP, but merely attacked the messenger.

K&R
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Your graphic looks like a fine group of DLCers or Republican Lite.
We need more progressives in there. How do we pressure Obama into it?
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. The really really true blue guy was Van Jones
And where is he now?
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. I know,
the vitriol is astounding.

Thx for the graphic. It's, well, pretty graphic and it certainly explains everything. Wanna bet, if Clinton had been elected we'd have the same line-up? We certainly got the mandates on the health insurance now, didn't we?
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. It seems so odd that Obama and Clinton suddenly became the front
runners among all the candidates just like Kerry suddenly appeared when we all wanted Dean. I asked a political science prof. at the local college, how that happened and he felt that it's because we have a shadow government here that is really running things.
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #39
61. and he is right.
"Democracy" in the US is a sham.
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-01-09 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #39
118. Sadly enough, that makes total sense.
Edited on Sun Nov-01-09 08:02 PM by juno jones
I wanted Obama in because I did't like Clinton's health plan and the related mandates. Guess what, we pretty much wound up with that plan, with a bit of Romney care thrown in for good measure. And all the cabinet/advisory clintonistas makes me think we were pretty much getting this particular all-star line up from the get-go. (I've been a Kuchinich backer for years but, you know, at a certain point you must be pragmatic, they say.)

My only remaining illusion with the system is dying hard now. When someone like Gore Vidal talked about having a single corporate party as far back as at least the 80's, I refused to believe it. 'Dems are good, they fight for us'...I thought. They don't. And with our horrible corporate media, third parties and liberals like Kuchinich don't stand a chance.

Zappa was right. We are currently staring at the wall in the back of the theater, and the sick thing is, most are still waiting for the show to come back on.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #21
76. "Attack the messenger" Gee, where have we seen that before?
Fux news perhaps?
Townhall gatherings of idiots spewing Fux news propaganda one liners?

BHN
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
24. K&R!
Well written.

And yes we do deserve more for putting all those people where they are now. I've grown tired of realpolitik over the last thirty years as I've been slapped down for 'expecting too much' many times during that period, as if equality and decent working and living accomodations are too much to ask for in the richest (spit) country in the world. Meanwhile we keep getting half-full glasses while the corporations and media consolodate their stranglehold on our country. And this healthcare bill ain't even a half-full glass even thru rose-colored specs. It is a bone thrown to us, stripped of all real substance, but solid enough to beat each other over the head with.

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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
25. It's easy to be tricked when one is gullible. I, for one, said throughout the election...
...that Obama represents nothing more than an opportunity for Progressives.

CUNY Professor Frances Fox Piven on the post-Super Tuesday episode of Democracy Now!:

You know, in 1932, FDR didn’t run with a good program; he ran with the same program the Democrats had run with in 1924 and 1928, and that wasn’t a good program. But nevertheless, his rhetoric encouraged people who were suffering as a result of the Depression — working people, the unemployed — and helped to fuel the movements, which then forced FDR to support initiatives which he otherwise would not have supported, including the right to organize...

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/2/6/super_tuesday_roundtable_with_bill_fletcher

NGU.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
26. The pony they are giving us is not only unride-able -
It is dead.

With penalties accruing to us by the minute if we do not hasten to bury it in a Bank/Insurance/Big Pharma-approved coffin totaling more money than most of will ever make.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
27. You're So Silly.
:dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce:
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
35. I think somone needs a hug
So take a nap, you'll feel less cranky.
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #35
66. nothing to see here
move along


are you a cop?
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
36. Thank you so much for this
I came to a realization late last year. It took me awhile because I'm a natural blonde.

Politics is kabuki. It's all about retaining power and fundraising ability. Those who truly want change are in the minority, and will NEVER get elected to an office of consequence. After all, things have to be kept the same, or those in power won't have that power anymore.

It is sickening to realize that President Obama played those who were desperate and looking for substantive change like a harp. It's even more sick-making to realize it doesn't matter to him -- he got what he wanted, didn't he?
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
38. I hope Obama has an epiphany some time soon like FDR did and starts
governing more like FDR and less like Lincoln. He needs to get rid of those DLCers in his administration too and replace them with real liberals who work for the people not the corporations and Republicans.
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #38
51. the audacity of hope...
me too.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
40. Expecting "change" from a moderate, establishment, politician is a fools game. K&R.
We got another "not as bad" triangulator devoted to the status quo in a corrupt system dominated by payoffs, political and financial.
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Most reasonable people expected him to be moderate, but hoped for modest change.
Edited on Sat Oct-31-09 01:29 PM by branders seine
Sorry to Obama's supporters, but I see no change at all on the most important issues. Some things have gotten worse! Again, expectations (whatever they were) are moot; where are we now and what can we do about it? How does it instruct us for the future?
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #43
64. Vote issues, instead of party or politicians.
I perfectly willing to let Democrats play the game, to some rational extent, but when they support and vote for, conservative policies, i.e. anti-choice, pro-war, pro-corporation. I look elsewhere to vote. It is the only way of changing a corrupt system and getting their attention. If they want my vote they have to earn it.
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #64
68. voting--even for issues--is a waste of time,
when all we ever get is whatever"government" the lobbyists pay for.

Until we outlaw all poltiical contributions and move to 100% regulated and publicly financed elections, we are screwed. Money is not speech, and neither is free in this country.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Unfortunately, the ones able to outlaw the money are on the payroll.
And, killing the golden goose that pays them is definitely "off the table".
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. Boy. thanks for cheering me up....
:hi:
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
47. Welcome to DU!
:hi:



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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. thank you!
great graphic BTW
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
49. Yep-people were sold fake "hope & change" which was just shit on a silver platter.
How long before people get it that Washington DC is corrupt as hell and that politicians are playing us and spending OUR money on what they and their cronies want, not what we want?! :argh:
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. alas, I'm afraid that most americans will never get it.
or care enough to do anything except become even more apathetic if they do get it.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #49
74. We need to really understand that our government is CORRUPT
Not a little corrupt. Not close to being corrupt. Not sometimes corrupt. We knew that Bush's administration was corrupt. We started to suspect it when Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid became the House and Senate leaders, but we were sure it would stop with Obama. It hasn't. The only word I can come up with is that our government is corrupt. As corrupt as any tin dictator in the third world corrupt.

I started coming to that realization when the Democrats refused to defend Clinton when the Republicans impeached him. I fully believe the Bush administration was as corrupt as they could be. Not holding them accountable is to be party to that corruption.

And our government is morally bankrupt too. They are truly bought.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
53. "We are getting no real health care reform."
"That should be clear by now to everyone with one working brain cell."

I'm a good scanner of threads - glad I saw that. See ya - you're not worth discussing anything with.
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Tim01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
56. Promising hope and change is an obvious political trick. What did you expect?
Promising hope and change allows everybody to believe it means whatever they want it to mean. It promises exactly nothing.
And then each person is shocked to find out that hope and change is not what they had fantasized it is.

You heard him promise.......what? All I heard was hope and change.
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #56
63. what any of us expected is not the point.
where we are, what to do about it, and what we learn for the future--those matter.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
59. Then you aren't paying attention!
Sorry, but none of the Dems have a magic wand - not even Obama. But, if you pay attention, we ARE making serious progress. Slow, perhaps, but progress.
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Tippy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
65. All Good things come to those who wait........
English phrase propounding the virtue of patience. My mom used this phrase often to bad other mom's didn't use it......I have confidence in our President...It's hard to be confident after what George Bush did but..... Obama is not George Bush
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #65
73. I like patience,
but the 2010 campaigns are less than a year away, and momentous, once-in-a-generation policies are being decided NOW. The tide of history does not wait for those thrust into it to get comfortable.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
70. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
77.  oh what a bunch of melodramatic dogshit.
let me play my :nopity: for poor wittle whiny you.
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. What an utterly vapid post.
Thanks for your contribution.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #80
87. actually, I think your op takes the prize for vapid. not to mention
banal. And the use of the word "we" is quite irksome. Speak for yourself. You certainly aren't entitled to speak for the Progressive community.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #77
84. Cali, you've been listening to hate-talk radio again, haven't you?
We warned you that crap would turn your brains to mush-
now didn't we?
Now look what's happened.
You sound just like a town-hollar howler.
BHN
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. sorry, dear. I don't listen to any radio- except Pandora
but I have no tolerance for this banal whining dogshit.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #85
88. Easy to dismiss the facts, like hate radio by labeling them as "banal whining dogshit."
Attack the messenger, ignore the facts.
Carry on.
BHN
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Jack Sprat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
79. Perpetrators of Fraud
I would say they will pay a heavy price for their betrayal of genuine Democrats, but most of the guilty ones still have big paydays coming in campaign contributions from the Defense and Health industries. Both parties are one in the same. It's like Pro Wrestling. They put on a show but none of it is serious. We have a corporate government pulling all the strings. The population was so furious at Bush that they gave us Obama as a pacifier. It's the same show, though.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #79
86. Stop making sense.
Government compared to the staged wrestling?
Obama as a pacifier to an enraged populace?
Multi national corporate shadow government pulling the puppets strings?

Oh wait... you are stating facts.

BHN
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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-01-09 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #79
110. Good cop, bad cop.


"The 'bad cop' takes an aggressive, negative stance towards the subject, making blatant accusations, derogatory comments, threats, and in general creating antipathy between the subject and himself. This sets the stage for the 'good cop' to act sympathetically: appearing supportive, understanding, in general showing sympathy for the subject. The good cop will also defend the subject from the bad cop. The subject may feel he can cooperate with the good cop out of trust and/or fear of the bad cop. He may then seek protection by and trust the good cop and tell him the needed information.

It is not uncommon for a subject to testify falsely against other subjects under the good-cop/bad-cop duress, only to recant the testimony at a later point when the psychological stress is no longer present.

The technique is easily recognized by those familiar with it, but it remains useful against subjects who are young, frightened, or naive. Experienced interrogators assess the subject's level of intelligence and experience with the technique prior to its application."


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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
90. Unrecommend,,, If Dean and Krugman say it's good then It's good.
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
91. Magic Unicorn fluffy pink marshmallow town
Where is it? Why, it's been almost ten months! For Christs' sake, I was promised marshmallow shitting unicorns! I'm waiting.

Apparently, I was tricked! DAMN THAT OBAMA!
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
92. Slight quibble, a Big Mac won't mold.
Edited on Sat Oct-31-09 04:22 PM by Greyhound
Even mold knows that shit ain't food.


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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
96. K&R
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
101. Startin to feel like Charlie Brown
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #101
103. Funny you should mention that
I just watched the "Great Pumpkin" cartoon, for the first time in years, and as I'm watching the inevitable football scene, I'm thinking yeah, this is it..... Lucy is the DLC corporatist "inside the beltway" fake Democrat, and Charlie Brown is the faithful Liberal Democratic voter, tricked into believing the bullshit yet again. :evilfrown:
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #103
104. Great minds.....
:thumbsup: :hi:
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-01-09 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #103
117. And us progressive Dems are constantly being told
Not to think about things - first the Health Care reform bill was not in final form - so don't event hink about it.

Then we are led to believe that if it is not to our liking now as it approaches final form, we should quit worrying and BE HAPPY as we need to realize that it will improve next year (Just like the economy!)

That sound of "Whump" is matched by the "Thud" when we fall on our faces, because tomorrow and next year never quite materialize, according to the promise. And the DLC don't offer much sympathy either - "Why did you think things would be different this year - clearly from our voting record you could see we were not going to budge and be progressive."

So on the one hand, we must trust them, and on the other hand we should have looked to reality. They get it both ways all the time.

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rufus dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
106. Fucking A...right on!
These guys are no better than the Repukes, what is the difference between Sotomayor and Roberts! God dammit, when the founding fathers took on England we had real change in a year! He should have fired every fucking person with Gov't experience and brought about real change! Fuck the establishment, if he would have burned everything to the ground the keyboard warriors would have taken over and delivered massive victories in 2010 and reelection in 2012 would have been a given.

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-01-09 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
109. This thread actually has 65 recs: which means that over 40 people unrec'd it
Some people are still hoping against hope, I guess.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-01-09 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #109
114. That sounds about right. n/t
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ProleNoMore Donating Member (316 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-01-09 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
116. Agree Completely - The Results Speak Volumes
eom
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