Is there anyone who is actually offended when someone wishes them a Merry Christmas.

[Robyn66]

Is anyone OFFENDED by Christmas Trees and Nativity Scenes? I was just thinking about when I was little and all the towns around used to have their town center's all lit up and there were all kinds of christmas decorations and menorah's and just about any kind of decorations you can imagine.

No I believe very strongly that religion has no place being taught in school and prayer in school is not appropriate. But I do believe in celebrating holidays. And I hate that the Halloween Parade is the Harvest Parade. And I don't care if you say Happy Holidays to me because when I was a kid that meant you were referring to Christmas and New Years at the same time. It wasn't some weird "war on Christmas" thing.

But when I talk to my friends who are more on the conservative side they say "WELL ITS BECAUSE OF YOU LIBERALS AND THE ACLU WE CANT HAVE HOLIDAYS ANY MORE!"

I have yet to find ONE person who finds a christmas tree or any kind of christmas decoration offensive, or that wouldn't sign a petition to bring back all the decorations on the common because they were pretty and brought a little enjoyment to people.

If this is a hot button for any of you please don't flame me, I want to understand why this is such a HUGE deal. Where did this need for towns to sanitize EVERYTHING come from?

[Greyhound]

1. So little as to be insignificant, but yes. n/t

[Lasher]

2. Ebenezer Scrooge? n/t

[11 Bravo]

3. I have no problem with it, but there are those who do, and you will be hearing from them shortly.

[lamp_shade]

4. I don't know a single person who is offended.

[shadowknows69]

46. You do now.

[Robyn66]

48. How are you doing?

[shadowknows69]

58. One of the shittier days in recent memory. Doesn't top my friends recent suicide.

But close.

[Robyn66]

60. I'm so sorry

I lost a dear friend to suicide too about two years ago. Its very hard. I am very very sorry. I wish there was something I could do for you.

[Divine Discontent]

97. of all the things to get offended over - I'd put someone wishing me Happy Hanukkah or Happy Kwanzaa

or any other cultural or religious holiday greeting that I don't celebrate extremely low on the list that would be classified as 'offended'. I'd just nod a polite hello and move on.

And I've met one guy in my life that was offended when someone wished him a very MC years ago, and he got all angry and red-faced, it was disturbing. It sure makes it seem like something else is going on within when a holiday greeting sends someone to be that offended.

[BoneDaddy]

104. then it is time to grow up

and stop being so goddamn offended. lol

[bluestateguy]

5. Not at all

but I celebrate Christmas. If I did not, I might feel different.

[kestrel91316]

6. Who are you referring to that claims people get offended by "Merry Christmas"???

I've NEVER in my life seen anyone offended by that. But I have seen and heard of LOTS of people (all christian fundies, BTW) get their panties all knotted up by "Happy Holidays".

When are fundies gonna remember that there are LOTS of religious holidays at this time of year, and they don't have a monopoly? When are they going to stop with the faux outrage about an INCLUSIVE greeting??

[Robyn66]

The Happy Holidays thing is totally ridiculous

I know people whose hair practically bursts into flame when you say that one and then I point out that people have always said it and it is polite anyway. But if you say Merry Christmas its not unforgivable either.

I guess I have always thought of Christmas as a time where everyone of every belief could find common ground. Its a silly juvenile idea but I don't look at a nativity scene as someone ramming religion down my throat, I see it as an aspect of cultural identity. And if we had more out there, maybe there would be more understanding between people.

Who can possibly have a problem with "Peace on Earth Good Will toward Men?"

[shadowknows69]

50. Ever try to have your religious symbol also placed in a public area

Only to have people attack you as devil worshippers and trying to destroy Christianity, but the manger scene remains. I have. Sort of a sore spot.

[crazyjoe]

56. curious, what religious symbol are you talking about?

[shadowknows69]

63. Me and some other local pagans, a considerable amount I might add.

Petitioned city council to have a simple "nature religion" symbol put up along with the manger and menorah. We were verbally attacked through the whole meeting, by a local church who was, wait for it, later dissolved because the Pastor was cheating on the wife and embezzling money. Good Christian values.

[niyad]

150. the fundie religious wackos here freak out the same way-- even to people simply wearing pents--

let alone having them on display. but it's okay for them to put up their insane "hell houses" on samhain.

which is why I make a point of wishing them a blessed solstice.

[shadowknows69]

164. We weren't even going to put up a Pentagram.

It was going to be a moon themed symbol a friend of mine had designed.

[Robyn66]

59. I'm sorry that happened to you

That certainly is wrong. People in my town found out I had a website with vampire fiction and cemetery photography on it and I was called a "witch" (not something I consider an insult!) All of a sudden I wasn't a Substitute Teacher any more. I guess I was lucky that was all that happened!

[Bjorn Against]

119. Did you contact the ACLU?

If not you should, that is the kind of case that they jump on. If the city is going to allow one religious symbol in a public place then they are Constitutionally required to allow symbols from other religions as well.

[onehandle]

7. Here? Probably. In the real world, not too many.

Thankfully.

[Dulcinea]

95. It's a distraction.

You see, if people are preoccupied with what holiday greeting is proper/improper to say, they won't think so much about unemployment, poverty, injustice, and how the bailout money is being used to prop up Wall Street instead of getting the economy moving again.

In response to your question: I'm not offended by any of that. To each his own. I like Thanksgiving & Halloween better than Christmas anyway!

[lapislzi]

8. Merry Christmas, no. Nativity scenes and other religious expressions, depends.

I will always err on the side of caution and say "happy holidays" to whoever--just because I don't know if or what they're celebrating. It just seems the polite thing to do.

Religious displays on public property offend me. You want to have a life-size manger scene complete with lowing cattle on your front lawn or in front of your church, have fun. I couldn't care less. But not on my dime.

[onehandle]

There are nativity scenes in the White House, in the Capitol, the Supreme Court Building...

On and in many public properties around DC.

Start calling.

[lapislzi]

67. I can, I have, and I do.

The rulings on these displays are somewhat nebulous. If the religious display is part of a larger display including secular decorations, it's generally considered to fall within the grounds of Constitutionality. But that doesn't mean it doesn't annoy me, the same way "in god we trust" on the money annoys me. I don't lose my mind over it, but I'd be lying if I said it doesn't bug me.

And just cause those displays are up there doesn't make it right.

[MineralMan]

9. Some folks like to think they are being persecuted. It makes

them feel important. That's the reason for all the fundamentalist Christian nonsense about a "War on Christmas."

The reality is that some people object to governmental agencies funding displays that only celebrate Christian concepts, since that's prohibited in the Consitution. That gets expanded in the twisted little minds of the fundamentalists into a general hatred of all things Christian.

They love being "persecuted." It's Biblical, and they can't be real fundamentalists unless someone's persecuting them.

[Robyn66]

30. What is really fun if the fundies start getting obnoxious

I point out Christmas was originally Yule- a Pagan Holiday to celebrate the "Birth of the God" Jesus would have been born some time in August or September and the Church chose December to make it easier to convert the pagans. THEY HATE THAT!

But that is only if the start being hateful. I don't want to start a pissing contest over belief.

[comrade snarky]

53. I like to remind them of Jeremiah 10:2-4

If they act like jerks.

[Xithras]

64. Actually, it didn't even originally have anything to do with conversion.

The early Christians, and many Christian religions today, celebrate special feast days and mass days throughout the year to pay homage and reverence to various saints and early leaders. Sometimes those days coincided with the birth, death, or beatification date of a particular person, and sometimes they were just random dates chosen because no solid dates existed.

Winter Solstice festivals, Saturnalia, and other pagan holidays tended to be wild celebrations filled with booze and sex throughout most of Europe, which clashed with the early Christian belief that the devout must be demure and repressed. To keep early Christians from participating in the pagan activities, the early church decided to place their holiest mass and feasts, those dedicated to celebrating the birth of Christ, right in the middle of the pagan winter holidays. Because the early christ-masses were multi-day events, this had the effect of keeping the Christians in church and/or celebrating the mass at home, instead of them being out celebrating and fornicating with their pagan neighbors.

It was a way to keep the Christians busy, so they wouldn't realize how much fun their neighbors were having. It also forced converts to make a choice between celebrating as a Christian or as a pagan.

[Robyn66]

99. Thank you for educating me :)

I wish I had the personal discipline to become a Pagan. I absolutely love the philosophy! Not to mention the fun!

[BoneDaddy]

107. You will find no better examples of the "persecution complex" here on this board

sure it exists on the right as well but it is alive and kicking in here

[WI_DEM]

10. I can't speak for other's but I don't let myself get bent out of shape over it.

[hayu_lol]

15. I only get bent when its the bell ringers saying Merry Xmas...

and immediately follow that up with 'god bless you...'or some jebus quote.

When the greeting is by rote, impersonal, and/or is overloaded with someone else's religious phrases.

I am not a christian.

[WolverineDG]

27. Would you be happier if they said "Fuck you" instead?

:shrug:

of all the things to get bent out of shape over. :eyes:

dg

[Warren DeMontague]

31. I like to greet people with "It's colder than a witch's tit, and God is just pretend"

If they get bent out of shape, it's their problem.

[WolverineDG]

38. Oh boy, people must LOVE to be around you

such a ray of sunshine, you are.

:eyes:

dg

[Warren DeMontague]

111. At least I have a sense of humor.

Unlike some people.

[Ignis]

65. The holidays are no time for inconvenient truths!

You're simply supposed to smile and nod along with any god-bothering at this time of year. It's the law!

[Warren DeMontague]

112. No, see, "Accept Jesus or burn in hell" = being friendly. "I don't believe in God" = bigotry

not to mention "Christian Bashing".

It's tough to be the majority, remember.

[Ignis]

115. Heh, I have that cartoon clipped out.

I saw it in an issue of Free Inquiry, and it was just too good to pass up.

The standard: There are two.

[BoneDaddy]

108. So get over it

and realize they are wishing you well. If someone of the Jewish faith said Shalom or a Buddhist said Namaste or a Muslim said as salaam alaikum I would simply thank them. Time to grow up people.

[Contrary1]

11. What holidays can't your friends have now because of liberals and the ACLU?

Get back to me on that one.

And, no...I am not offended when someone wishes me a Merry Chritmas, Happy Hannukah,
Happy Kwanzaa or a Merry Festivus either.

[Robyn66]

19. LOL!! NO KIDDING

It seems that there are MANY THINGS that are screwed up by the LIBERALS AND THE ACLU!!! If you challenge too many Rethug talking points they go back to that one!!!

They really hated it when I pointed out that the ACLU defended the street corner preachers in Las Vegas!!!

[blondeatlast]

132. It's the needle-in-their-ass fundies, not us damn librulz/athyistis/agnistickys, that want to ruin

a great time of the year for everyone.

I happen to practice Christianity in a UU church, have friends of all faiths and lack thereof, and we all enjoy the season together.

We also enjoy a little "Happy Holidays" tossed to a needle-assed Scrooge as well.

[Robyn66]

20. I am right with you!

I guess I am just pro-celebration!

[WeDidIt]

12. I just answer "Bah...HUMBUG!" and go off on my merry way. n/t

[MineralMan]

13. I patronize a tobacconist who is an Iranian Muslim. He has a

nice shop. Right now, it's covered in Christmas decorations, and he is forever wishing his customers a "Merry Christmas." Sensible fellow. He closes the store at his prayer times, though, so you do have to know something about prayer times and not visit then, "Merry Christmas" or not.

This is proper.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

14. no, but we can call it Yuletide again

christmas trees are pagan

[shadowknows69]

54. Thank you.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

137. we like to have mistletoe around!

:evilgrin:

[Hekate]

16. Not offended. Nativity scenes might be on church property instead of in front of City Hall, but that

... should not present any problems to open minded people.

But Christmas trees, imo, ought to be everywhere. It's dark outside. We need the cheery colored lights. That's what people do.

As for that ACLU crap, I'm sure that snopes.com can give you the relevant info on how the ACLU has defended the rights of Christians many times.

Hekate

[Iggo]

17. Goes right over my head.

If I think waaaaaaaaay too hard about it, I'd probably be slightly offended.

(BTW: I don't get offended when people say "Bless you" after I sneeze, either...lol.)

[Robyn66]

40. My brother got in trouble FOR REAL at work for saying Bless You

when someone sneezed. He is not religious basically an agnostic at best. Just says Bless you because he has always said Bless you. But they acted like he really did something HORRIBLE!!!

[dustbunnie]

44. Geez, what do they do when he says "good-bye,"

which is basically the short version for "God be with you"?

[Ignis]

92. That's fairly shocking.

In what industry does he work?

[Robyn66]

100. He works in customer service at Constant Contact

Its very wierd some of the stuff that goes on there.

[Ignis]

103. And he got in trouble for using it in the workplace?

With other employees, or as part of customer service with a customer?

[Robyn66]

106. other employees

here is the joke (even though this is really gross) they have a problem at his facility with people smearing poop on the bathroom wall. But they jump on my brother for saying Bless you and give him a 1/2 hour lecture about saying Ghezuntite if he must say anything!!
The world is a very wierd place!!!

[Ignis]

118. They want he should speak Yiddish instead?

:crazy:

I say he should come up with a compromise, and simply say "Damn you" to sneezers. :D

[Robyn66]

129. I think he should say PLAGUE!!! RUN AWAY!!!!! (nt)

[BoneDaddy]

166. This is a perfect example of when secular PC nonsense

is as crazy as the other nutters out there. "Bless you"??? you have to be kidding me.

[RDANGELO]

18. I am not offended unless you have a situation where the

it is blatantly unconstitutional. The seasonal Nativity scene doesn't bother me. I think most of the friction comes from the other side which is insecure with anything that substantiates that America is a diverse country.

[blondeatlast]

133. "The other side"--yup, that's precisely where it comes from. They live to have something

to be pissed about.

[jobycom]

21. It's not so much that people get offended by being wished a "Merry Christmas"

as that "Happy Holidays" is more inclusive, and it's respectful to people whose religion you don't know. If I'm talking to a Christian I think nothing of "Merry Christmas," but if I'm talking to a non-Christian it sounds more like a taunt than like a good wish to say it. Likewise, if I don't know someone's faith, or I'm speaking to a crowd who is mixed, saying "Merry Christmas" leaves people out. That's why stores say Happy Holidays instead, too, because they have a broad customer base.

I know as an atheist I return "Merry Christmas" greetings with "Merry Christmas," and don't feel offended by it, but I can honestly say that when someone considers my beliefs (or lack of them, I guess) and goes out of their way to say "Happy Holidays," or makes some acknowledgement of me individually, I feel better about it and them.

As for towns and Nativity scenes, there's no way a Nativity scene isn't a religious icon, so they violate the First Amendment. That should be absolute, and any town who violates that should be ashamed of itself, Christian or not. Christmas trees and lights and all of that, including signs saying "Merry Christmas," I don't have a problem with, because Christmas is a fairly secular holiday as well as a religious event despite its origins. Nativity scenes are religious, though, and unambiguously so.

There's enough to bring us all together during the Holidays. There's plenty of tradition we can share, and there is enough individuality that each of us can respect and celebrate our differences, too. The one thing I can't tolerate are attempts to divide, and forcing religious beliefs on people who don't share them is division.

[WolverineDG]

22. You came to the right place

there's several DUers who get poutraged if someone wishes them a "Merry Christmas," or (heaven forfend) says "Have a blessed day." (I do agree, though, that it is more polite to say "Happy Holidays" but even that gets the really hard-core atheists to come unglued).

Now if you're talking about religious displays on public property, I'm not okay with that unless they were put up by a private group who had to get a permit (& presumably put up cash) to do it.

dg

[comrade snarky]

72. I don't have any problem with Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas is someone wishing me happiness and that's always welcome but for some reason "Have a blessed day" gets right up my nose.

Not that I've ever said anything to someone who says it, or ever would really. It's no big thing.

It's just that it always sounds so, forced... and kinda smug. Maybe that's because of the people I've run into who say it. Usually the one at work with all the religious stuff covering their desk and shelves and walls and computer monitor and screen saver and devotional calender. The people I look at and wonder why they seem to need everyone else to know how religious they are.

Maybe it's just me.

[Warren DeMontague]

23. No, but having grown up in a predominantly Jewish community, it strikes me as slightly presumptuous.

I'm fine with "Merry Christmas". What blows me away is that some people lose it over "Happy Holidays"; because, apparently, the implied inclusiveness pisses them off.

I don't find Christmas decorations offensive, nor do I find nativity scenes offensive-- but I DO find nativity scenes offensive on, say, public property. In front of City Hall. Why? Not because plastic baby Jesuses are intrinsically offensive, but because of the implied message BEHIND sticking a nativity scene on the lawn of City Hall- a message that has nothing to do with the "birth of Christ" and everything to do with a deliberate attempt to imply government endorsement of religious belief; everything to do w/ giving a big hearty "fuck you" to those of us who are NOT in the religious majority.

And as has been repeated in every single on of these threads; there is hardly a church shortage in this country... When someone proves to me that we NEED crosses, nativity scenes, and 10 commandment monuments on public property because, shucks, there's just nowhere else we can put them, then maybe I'll consider that it is about something other than flipping off godless ACLU members with an end run around the Establishment Clause.

As for the Harvest Parade, what's the problem? You don't like harvests?

[Greyhound]

29. Exactly. n/t

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

33. I'm not fine with Merry Christmas being said to me by assumptive strangers, but I agree with you on

everything else.

[Robyn66]

34. LOVE harvest but..

the REASON its a HARVEST Parade is because the Fundies in Town cant handle it being a HALLOWEEN parade even though the kids are dressed in HALLOWEEN costumes and PARADE through the center of town!

Its because of these SAME TEABAGGER, Freestater, Fundies that my kids were not allowed to see the President speak when he broadcasted to the children on TV during school.

[Warren DeMontague]

114. I always say that someone should inform them what the eggs and bunnies at Easter

are really about.

[Robyn66]

134. My kids have not been raised in any "church"

so when they asked what easter was and it just so happened it was in front of some very Catholic friends of ours I told them it was when Jesus came out of his tomb and if he sees his shadow we have six more weeks of winter!

For some reason they didn't find that particularly as funny as we did!!!

[Better Today]

24. Yes, but not because it is related to Christianity, it's because Christmas is such a joke,

it should be called a buyiday, not a holiday.

[rudy23]

25. The War on Christmas is totally self-perpetuated!

Teabaggers would never even hear about it if they took a break from whining to each other about it for a year.

[BoneDaddy]

167. I don't think it is

I don't think that there is a massive left wing communist conspiracy to eliminate and destroy the institution of Christianity, but if you don't think there are people on the left with tremendous amounts of vitriol and hate for anything Christian, stick around.

And I am not a Christian.

[StarfarerBill]

26. Nope. I'm an atheist; when someone says "Merry Christmas", I just say "Thanks", and go about my way.

That said, I don't want overtly-religious displays on public property; lights, trees, snowpeople, and Santa are fine, as far as I'm concerned.

[LuvNewcastle]

28. My town has plenty of Christmas decorations.

There's nothing overtly religious about them -- it's mostly Christmas trees and Santa Claus and candy canes. There are plenty of Nativity scenes in front of churches, where they belong. I just don't see how Christmas is being destroyed, unless some people expect there to be only religious decorations.

[Nye Bevan]

32. Some people are *very* offended by *cretins* who say "Merry Christmas"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7223438

[Robyn66]

36. WOW hadn't read that thread

I guess I am a cretin :crazy:

[ieoeja]

82. Given that he called them "war on Christmas cretins" ...

And even goes on to complain about people getting upset by "Happy Holidays," then I gather you must be one of those who believe there is a "war on Christmas". If so then that would make you a cretin.

But I think maybe you just didn't read it carefully.

[Robyn66]

102. I just want to have a good time in December

I don't care if you call it Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Blessed Yule, Happy Kwanzaa, Happy Hanuka, Festivus for the rest of us or Have a nice day! I like lights and Christmas Music between the day after Thanksgiving and Christmas Day.

Despite all the shit that is going on in the world and that I deal with every day, it makes me happy to see something pretty and positive. I think everyone has a right to believe or not believe in anything they want. I just don't think that its fair that the small number of people who don't like it ruin it for those of us who do. I don't believe in any kind of racist or sexist representations but just enjoying the season and Holiday

If that makes me a horrible human being and a cretin so be it. SO maybe I didn't read the post so closely. I guess I don't read the raging negative posts as closely as I should.

[niyad]

151. you might have tried noticing that the post was about the "war on christmas" cretins--

you know, the ones who get offended by "happy holidays" or whatever. it wasn't about people in general who wish "merry christmas", only about the religious wackos who are so damned insecure that they cannot handle anything outside their narrow sphere. and believe me, I know these people-- living down the road from the jerks at focus who publish that idiot "where would jesus shop" list--the one that whines about all the retail stores that don't bow down to their narrow little view of the world.

[Matariki]

35. Yeah, I kind of get irritated by the assumption that everyone is christian

I'm not christian and being wished 'merry christmas' for a month solid makes me feel awkward and aware of my minority status. It's just a minor irritation though.

Christmas music blasting in stores from Halloween onward is another story. That's a MAJOR irritation.

[LostInAnomie]

37. Meh... I just take it as a well wishing from someone.

If they are Christian they will probably say "Merry Christmas", and I'll probably do the same in return.

If they are Jewish they may say "Happy Hanukkah", and I will respond the same in return.

If they are huge Seinfeld fans they may say "Happy Festivus", and I will respond the same in return.

I just take it as a cultural thing and accept it graciously. That's what most adults do.

You have to be a pretty big asshole to get pissed about well wishing.

[gaspee]

42. You have to be a pretty big asshole

To not give a shit about how minority communities are made to feel like outsiders.

[Robyn66]

55. You are absolutely right

what does that have to do with whether or not people of all cultures have a right to celebrate holdiays?

[gaspee]

109. I don't care what anyone celebrates

Or says to me - I"m responding the the person I responded to who can't understand why someone who isn't part of the dominant culture might not be happy when the 100th person wishes them a merry christmas.

[Robyn66]

110. Oh NOW I get it :D

These can be a bit tough to follow at times!

[shadowknows69]

57. +1

[LostInAnomie]

61. How are they making you feel like an outsider?

They are wishing you well through the reference point of their culture. They aren't doing it as a commentary on your beliefs or to proseltyze.

As one of the most outspoken Atheists on here, I find it hilarious when people twist the well intentioned goodbyes of a community into an affront to their sensitive sensibilities. It's the flip side of Christians getting indignant about "Happy Holidays".

[shadowknows69]

I guess as an atheist you might not get it then.

If anything I'd think you'd be more pissed about the lack of seperation of church and state it represents.

[LostInAnomie]

81. If someone wishes me "Merry Christmas" it's not a violation of Church and State.

Which is what I commented on.

But IMHO, as an Atheist, as secularized as most Xmas decorations and activities have become, the violation is almost tangential anymore. If cities are putting up Nativity scenes, then sure, that's a violation. If they are putting up Xmas lights, a tree, Santas, etc., I don't really care.

[Nye Bevan]

76. So do you make sure never to say "Bless You" when someone sneezes

in case they are atheists and might be offended? And "Thank God for that" is probably best avoided, for the same reason. Better not say "Happy Thanksgiving" either just in case the person is part Native American and does not celebrate what some see as the beginning of the genocide of an indigenous people. And anyone who has visited GD on DU on or around Columbus Day knows that even *mentioning* the name of that genocidal maniac Columbus is fraught with danger.

[rd_kent]

83. I say "do you need a tissue" when someone sneezes.

[Ignis]

124. No, I say "Don't let the fairies steal your soul!"

There have been some close calls, but I've managed to drive them away with this incantation so far.

[shadowknows69]

138. Writing that in Book of Shadows now.

[Warren DeMontague]

163. I say "Gezundheit", which means "Good Health" in German.

Most sick people don't mind being told you hope they feel well. At worst, they'll think you're German, which isn't synonymous with being an asshole, at least not lately.

I must confess, however, I have been known to invoke the name of the Deity from time to time at certain private moments, but I think my wife understands.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

39. There are no such people.

There are, however, people who are upset by "happy Hanukah," "happy holidays," "happy Kwanzaa," etc. Why? Because they're a bunch of fucking fascists.

[Nye Bevan]

43. No such people?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7223438

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

49. Yeah, you're misreading that.

That's not an attack on people who honestly use the term, but the War on X-mas nuts.

[niyad]

154. glad you got it--don't know why it was so difficult for some people.

[Ignis]

70. Did you actually read the post?

I actually had someone say yesterday that "happy holidays" just wasn't special enough. Until that moment, I had given this person credit for normal intelligence.

Sounds like the poster has cause to complain.

[niyad]

155. thanks for getting it.

[lukasahero]

41. The people I work with are diverse

Jewish and Hindi on my immediate team. And me, the agnostic. We all celebrate Christmas in our own fashion. All 3 put up Christmas trees and give gifts. And I wish them both a Merry Christmas.

Out in the world, however, where I don't know everyone's religious take, I usually just wait to hear what the person I'm speaking with says and respond in kind. If nothing is said, I stick with Happy Holidays.

[shadowknows69]

45. Frankly yes. I consider it a state sponsored religious holiday in violation of our 1st Amendment.

Plus I'm not a Christian, so it's pretentious, IMO, for someone to assume I am.

[Hosnon]

47. Christmas trees don't have Christian origins and any other religious origin is all but forgotten.

The only thing undeniably Christian about Christmas is the celebration of Jesus' birth. Most of it is just a general seasonal celebration.

So, no, I am certainly not offended by any of it. But I do not want to see a crèche on public property.

[rucky]

51. Bill O'Reilly's imaginary liberal friend. n/t

[varelse]

142. you win the thread

:thumbsup:

[Robyn66]

149. What does that mean?

[Kitty Herder]

52. I wonder why people who insist on saying "Merry Christmas" want to offend and hurt people.

I once offended a Jewish co-worker by asking if he had a good Christmas.It was stupid of me. We'd had Christmas off, and I was wondering how he had enjoyed the day off. I didn't think before I spoke. I spoke out of habit formed in my childhood in rural Utah where Jews are unheard of and atheists are mythical beasts. He was nice about it, but I felt like an asshole.

It's no fun being an asshole. Why do these Christmas warriors wish to be?

[Ignis]

78. This.

Having been fortunate enough to grow up in a diverse community, I learned early on that it's better to use a broad term than an exclusionary one.

Aren't we supposed to be the tolerant side? :shrug: Why not use a generic "Happy Holidays" that covers all bases without offending (almost) anyone?

As a funny aside, I did have a fundie co-worker who was trying to become more tolerant of others' beliefs. As a result, he wound up wishing another co-worker "Happy Yom Kippur."

:rofl:

[onenote]

89. your Jewish co-worker must have been pretty thin-skinned

As someone who is Jewish, I find it remarkably bizarre that a Jewish person in America would be offended by someone asking them if they had a good Christmas. Really. I don't celebrate Christmas, but if someone asked me that question, and I had enjoyed my day off, I would say I had a very nice day. I wouldn't presume that the person asking was seeking to offend or, for that matter, trying to do anything other than make small talk in a perfectly non-offensive way.

If you were raised as a Jew (or as an agnostic, or an atheist, or a Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, etc) and are threatened by public expressions of "Merry Christmas", there is something lacking in your fidelity to your beliefs. Someone wishing me a Merry Christmas isn't going to cause me to doubt my beliefs and therefore it is neither threatening nor offensive to me.

Look at it this way, my mom passed away over 20 years ago. Sometimes people who don't know me that well ask me if I had a nice mother's day. Should I take offense because of their "presumptuousness"?

[Kitty Herder]

94. Perhaps.

Still, I don't see any reason to risk offending someone when it's just as easy to say, "Did you enjoy the day off?" and "Happy holidays!"

He wasn't offended when people who didn't know he was Jewish wished him a merry Christmas. But I did know he was Jewish, so I think he was perfectly justified in gently correcting me. I should have known better.

[Initech]

62. I don't get offended by anything anymore.

[mamaleah]

66. I'm not offended and I am Jewish.

Most people notice the Magen David on my neck and say "Happy Chanukah" but if they don't I am fine. I wish people Merry Christmas back!

Life is too short to get my panties in a bind.

On edit: When people do say Happy Chanukah, they usually follow it up with, "Did it already happen??" which always cracks me up.

[WillowTree]

91. I am Christian, my best friend is Jewish.

We both wish each other Merry Christmas and Happy Chanukah (also Easter, Rosh Hashanah etc). For myself, I love her and hope for all good things, including happiness and merriment, each and every day so to offer good wishes in commeration of my holidays and hers is a no brainer.

Then again, I wish everyone well in observance of Christmas. If they choose to be offended or get their undies in a bunch over my good wishes for them, that's their problem. The only person whose day is spoiled is their own.

[mamaleah]

98. Only the terminally offended would be offended.

Those looking to be offended will always find a way to be.

That said, Merry Christmas!

[Dorian Gray]

135. And a Happy Hanukkah

to you! I hope you are enjoying the holiday!

[T Wolf]

68. When I was a young Jewish boy, growing up in southern Virginia, I did not know that I

should/could be offended by the simple expression of good wishes for the season. We Jews had our thing, but being in a small minority, we simply accepted it (those two words) in the spirit it was given. I did not know enough to think that the assumption of my religious background was offensive.

Today, living in a much more diverse area (outside Philly), it has come to bother me. Not the simple expression itself, but the vehemence with which it is hurled at us, as if daring you to have any reaction other than "Praise Jesus, amen." The fundies have turned me off from most of the positive feelings I was raised with about the season. Their attempt (successful to some extent) to bring so many aspects of their religion into public life and force the rest of us to live by their sacred rules (which they are so prone to violate) has moved me from a not-really-reluctant celebrant "of the season" to one who will fight each and every expression of their religious bigotry.

Unlike in my youth, I now do ascribe bigotry and pressure to such overt religious expressions. They have brought the backlash onto themselves.

As an aside, as I mentioned, I grew up in a very (racially and religiously) segregated area. At my (public) school, we sang Xmas carols, including holy hymns. I even enjoyed them because I was taught (by my parents) to respect all religions (yeah, well that lesson didn't take a permanent hold). There was no attempt to include songs from other religions or cultures.

Flash forward to my own kids and their "holiday" concerts at their public school. Jewish songs and others celebrating other heritages (including Kwanza but no Eid) were included. The schools were even closed on some Jewish holidays. My parents were blown away at hearing their songs sung in a public school setting. They were impressed and touched.

But, at the same time that the "diversity" of PA vs. VA was a positive, the negative, aggressive/violent, unyielding, and just goddamn pushiness of the fundies was working to negate the openness of the north for me. Out of the mouth of tolerance, the fundies reached in and drew out an increased level of bigotry. Almost all is just not enough for them. Hence, my present attitude.

ps - we do put a tree up - with a Star of David on the top. Probably offending both traditions.

As a tangential observation - The same can be said for the economic decline. If the pukes were just a little bit less-greedy, they could have continued to rape us for years to come. Only because 100 million dollars a year is not enough for some people did they push things as far as they did, to totally kill the goose that was laying solid gold eggs for them.

[Fumesucker]

69. A Joyous Winter Solstice to you.. n/t

[shadowknows69]

74. And also to you.

[Ignis]

75. Yule be sorry now.

:hide:

[Fumesucker]

77. LOL...

[Ignis]

80. I feel sorry for all those little elves slaving away on toys.

Despite all their best efforts, Santa can give them the sack at any time.
The problem is that they're all just subordinate Clauses.
I hope they learn to hold themselves in higher elf esteem.

;)

[comrade snarky]

93. I always used to love Christmas at the S&M shop down the street

Leather zipper masks surrounded by festive garland in the window. A tree hung with various "aids". And when I say hung.... never mind.

One year, finally, they wrote that across the window.

It's Christmas in the Castro!

[niyad]

152. you nearly owed me a monitor for that post!!

[tigereye]

71. I like seeing Christmas and other decorations...

[walldude]

73. Only the Christians are offended when all other religions are

included in the Holidays. They love to claim that it's the liberals but it's actually them. Funny there are no Hindu's, Muslims, Jews, Buddhist's, atheists or Pagans screaming about some fake ass war. It's only those poor Christian minority. It's terrible when you claim you outnumber all other religions 90 to 1 yet you can't get those other religions to fall in line and do exactly what you want them to.

[Quantess]

79. Partial "yes". If it's said too early in the year, I get annoyed.

In my mind I'm thinking, "It's not Christmas yet. It's only December 15th."

Same goes for all holiday music, no matter what the denomination. I get sick of it well before Christmas. By the time Christmas arrives, I can feel my blood pressure rising whenever holiday-themed music is played.

All of my irritation could be avoided if only "the holidays" were restricted to a 3 week maximum duration. Two weeks max would be ideal, but I guess that isn't realistic.

[yurbud]

85. that's being offended at the commercial aspects, not it's mere existence.

[Quantess]

90. Of course. I like Christmas, even though the hype gets old.

I'm an agnostic. But even if I were a Christian, I think I would have my fill of the oversaturation (especially the music) well before Dec. 25th.

[yurbud]

84. no, it's a manufactured issue, like a lot of the PC stuff

the right sets up a straw man, then knocks it down.

[Odin2005]

86. I'm an Atheist and I say "Merry Christmas" all the time.

And if the nativity scene is on PRIVATE property I have no problem with it.

Oh, and I LOVE Christmas trees and other PAGAN winter symbolism. :)

[Rebubula]

87. Jebus Christ..

...with all the things in the world to get offended by and be angry about...someone wishing you a Merry anything is pretty small.

So...to you Pagans...Merry Christmas
To Christians....Liberating Ramadan
Jews....Happy Kwanzaa
Hindus...Blessed Hanukkah
Muslims....A Joyous Solstice


Seriously...everyone chill the fuck out and stop being offended by every tiny perceived slight.


Signed,
A 25 year unapologetic atheist who understands what it is to be an adult in a diverse community.

[Brickbat]

88. Nope. Not a biggie at all. Why get worked up about something like that when there's so much else

that needs to be done?

As far as nativity scenes, though, those do not belong at school or on public property.

[L0oniX]

96. YES !

[Edweird]

101. I'm not, and I'm a Satanist. Santa Claus isn't jesus.

The nativity scenes and 3 wise men crap I can do without, but I enjoy the secular holiday that is Christmas. I celebrate it, and wish others a merry Christmas as well. I also like Halloween. I got married on Halloween in New Orleans. Easter not so much.

[BoneDaddy]

105. this is why so many liberals are a joke to other people

they actually spend the time and energy to be offended about something ridiculous. Good topic.

[PeaceNikki]

113. Not offended, but a little annoyed.

It's such a leap to assume I am Christian and/or give a shit.

[Ignis]

116. I'm polite but clear in my answer:

"Oh, I'm not a Christian, but thank you for the thought."

[PeaceNikki]

117. Yes. Exactly.

Again... not "offended" and I wouldn't ever respond rudely, but it's a personal leap that bugs me a little bit.

[onenote]

122. if you sneeze and some one says "God bless you" are you annoyed?

What would you prefer they say?

[PeaceNikki]

123. meh.

I don't know why anyone has to "say" anything when I sneeze. :shrug:

They don't when I cough.

[1awake]

128. I think a chat on that might

be more entertaining in some ways ;)

[Warren DeMontague]

157. What does Emily Post recommend you say when someone farts, that's what I want to know.

Really, I think there are some serious gaps in human etiquette.

[Ignis]

165. I believe that's page 987, "Point and Laugh." (nt)

[DefenseLawyer]

120. I'm not a big fan of nativity scenes on public property

but no one offends me by saying "Merry Christmas".

[Arugula Latte]

121. I just think the person is presumptive

Lots of us aren't Xtians, but that probably enters the heads of the people who wish "Merry Xmas" to people indiscriminately.

[seeinfweggos]

125. well, of course not

and in my family, we have always said happy holidays to include all the holidays around that time of year - mainly christmas and new years. granted my family are a bunch of lefties but they celebrate christmas and go to their liberal church on occassion (episcopalian).

what's really nuts are the people who think "happy holidays" is anti-christmas.

[Umbral]

126. The Christians usurp a pagan holiday, turn it into an orgy of crass consumerism...

What's to get offended by? Cash, check or card? Merry Christmas, Indeed!

[TrogL]

127. If they go off on a rant

...about how everybody should be holly-jolly bugshit cheerful just because "it's Christmas", I'll point out that Advent is actually an apocalyptic season (my church doesn't do the Gloria) and the celebration of Christmas was at one point considered heresy. My church isn't having a Christmas Day service (we do that Christmas Eve).

[mdmc]

130. I have no problem with it, or KWANZAA, or Ramadan, or Hanukkah (spelling)

[Hatchling]

131. I don't mind at all.

I respond with a cheery :"Merry Solstice and a Happy Yule to you!"


But specific religious decorations on public property paid for with my taxes make me go "grrrr!"

Sparkly lights, "Happy Holidays", secular stuff is great, but no nativity scenes.

[ismnotwasm]

136. Not me

But I don't wish to exclude anyone either. I work with people of both Jewish and Muslim faiths, neither of whom celebrate Christmas. I'm not religious at all, and I don't celebrate Christmas either, as such, but I like to give gifts this time of year, I like pretty lights(don't do the Christmas tree thingy though)and sparkling decorations. I like the feeling of good will many people have during holidays. It breaks up the monotony of the winter months and gives the people who need an excuse for compassion and hospitality reason to practice both.

We should have all kinds of holidays far more often that we do.

[Raine]

139. I'm not

and in RL I don't know a single person that is. Even my republican relatives who are also atheist ... put up decorations and say "Merry Christmas".


edit: changed one word or coherency

[spanone]

140. no

[readmoreoften]

141. Depends on the way they say it.

I've had people wish me a Merry Christmas as a corrective to those who wish me a Happy Holidays. Yes, that is offensive.

[DutchLiberal]

143. Er... no. Why would I?

I mean, I don't consider myself Christian anymore (although I was baptised and received the Communion), but Christmas gets celebrated by all kinds of people, including non-religious people. t's a tradition. So why would I be offended? I hate Christmas, by the way, but not because it offends me. ;)

[sendero]

144. No one is stopping anyone ...

... from having their holiday. Your friends are assholes and probably idiots too.

I am not offended by the phrase "Merry Christmas" although I am most definitely not a Christian.

However, I don't want religious symbols on government property. If moronic people of ANY religion can't figure out why that is, they aren't very bright or very honest.

[varelse]

145. I can see someone being offended by that

It's inconsiderate to say that to someone when you are fully aware that their religion prohibits celebration of the holiday (or doesn't recognize the day as "holy").

For example, I'd never say it to my Orthodox Jewish coworkers, even if I did celebrate Christmas, because I know they don't and it would be rude.

There aren't many religious symbols or celebrations that offend me personally because, as an aethist, I have a "to each his or her own" feeling about all of that stuff.

[agentS]

146. I don't get offended, but those Nativity scenes....

People can say MC or HH or anything else. This is a busy season for holidays from Ramadan thru Kwanzaa. I think this year I'll do a little Kwanzaa. So no, people wishing me a nice X-mas is just fine in my book. Those Nativity scenes on town square don't really bother me either. What's it really costing me for the city to host some fundy-undy's little diorama on the town square or city hall glass? 12 cents? 1?

What REALLY grinds my gears is when same group (Christians of course) gets mad when someone else puts up a menorah or a Buddha next to the tree or other religious object. They act like their religious thingie is more important than the other group's religious thingie. Makes me wonder if it's related to their penis envy/fatherly love crap a lot of psycho religious folks have.

[Daemonaquila]

147. Merry Xmas annoys me a little... after the 100th time.

I have nothing against the sentiment, I just wish people wouldn't presume "I like her, so she MUST be a christian." I wouldn't be annoyed about it at all, if I EVER heard someone say "Happy Kwanzaa" or "Happy Hannukah," etc. But it's always Xmas. It gets kind of old.

I don't get all jazzed about nativity scenes, unless they're government-sponsored. Ok, I did get really annoyed once - when several neighboring businesses seemed to be having a war of "Who can put up the BIGGEST and GAUDIEST nativity scene? He who dies with the most camels wins!" I like Xmas even though it's not my holiday, but there are times I want to yell "GIVE IT A REST, PEOPLE! Enough already!"

[Robyn66]

148. See I would LOVE to see that

I just LOVE tacky stuff. I think one of the coolest things I could hope to see in my life would be a street full of businesses competing over who had the biggest nativity scene! I bet they get INSANE! I guess that is my point about everything. That stuff isn't' significant to me in a religious sense. If people saw my house they would probably think i am really religious. I have 4 nativity scenes. I am not religious at all. I haven't been to church since my god son's christening a year ago. (great god parents we turned out to be) I just like nativity scenes.

I think you definitely need to be sensitive to other people and not just assume they celebrate christmas but on the other hand I think we all need to understand when someone wishes you merry christmas they are wishing you well and not saying it to piss you off. Unless they are a fundie and are saying it to piss you off on purpose and then Merry Christmas really has nothing to do with it, they are just assholes! :)

[Name removed]

153. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren DeMontague]

156. Since some people seem to enjoy nothing better than offending unbelievers, let me suggest this:

Sure, "Merry Christmas", it's a tad presumptuous, but anyone can do it with little effort, and apparently lots of folks in this country grew up in places with nary a Jew, much less anyone openly Atheist... so it's entirely possible they just never thought about it.. as such, it doesn't really carry that deep, meaningful, "fuck you" weight... :shrug:

If you REALLY want to offend a godless, liberal, Constitution-quotin', ACLU card-totin' Xmas Warrior such as myself (well, just me) ... get me a Christmas GIFT.

Boy!!! Will that piss me off. Really. You have no idea how deeply offensive I will find it. Seriously!

...

I like books, gadgets.. of course, cash always works.

[winyanstaz]

158. For many years, alternative religions and atheists were afraid to speak up...

You could (and still can) lose jobs and be blackballed and sometimes even lose your children if the wrong "Christians" found out you were not Christian. This still happens to Pagans to this day.
A good example of the fear is seen if you try to read your daily main stream newspapers.
You will not see notices of the local pagan gatherings or holidays or many other alternative Religions either in most papers.
That is because alternative religions have to worry about persecution from the "Christian Taliban" still to this very day.
Not all Christians are like that of course but many are.
However many people are working to have NO religious things in schools as they do not want their children indoctrinated with Christian ideas or have another religion forced down their necks. Some prefer their own brand of Christianity as well and for example..if they were say Mormon or Baptist..they don't want the Evangelicals teaching their children either.
Others just do not believe in a God and want the right to live their own lives ..again without being bombarded with Christian ideas and dogma.
What is wrong with letting everyone have their own religion or lack there of and stop forcing others into one set of rules? Isn't it after all between a soul and God and no one else's business anyways?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

159. People should stop making it less about themselves......

...if someone wishes them a "Merry" anything, take it as a compliment, that the person cares enough about their well being to do so. I'm an agnostic, but I enjoy Christmas Eve and Day and the time I spend with my family as well as I think anyone should even if they are not religious.

The religious stuff on public property is an entirely different issue.

[OneBlueSky]

160. my doctor's receptionist is just the opposite . . .

if I wish her "Happy Holidays" she gets all bent out of shape and demands that I wish her Merry Christmas instead . . . when I explained that I had no way of knowing if she was a Christian or not, she showed me the cross she wears on a chain around her neck . . . when I pointed out that it could just be a nice piece of jewelry that didn't really signify anything, she accused me of being insensitive and anti-Christmas . . .

so I wished her Happy Holidays and left . . . I'd have said Merry Christmas if her attitude hadn't been so aggressive and accusatory . . . fortunately, my next appointment isn't til after New Years Day . . .

[FreeState]

161. Only if they know me n/t

[Norwood]

162. Nope not at all

Its an extremely dumb thing to get all bent outta shape over

[enigmatic]

168. I'm a Buddhist and it doesn't bother me n/t