some people fail to understand that there are certain issues that transcend "left" and "right"

[FLAprogressive]

Take for example, Federal Reserve Transparency. A paleoconservative, Ron Paul, is behind it, but a lot of the left blogosphere and labor leaders support it as well. A lot of people in the corporate "center" are against it.....

...this is an example of real bipartisanship, people on two opposite sides of the political spectrum supporting something for good...not DC "bipartisanship", which is usually people on different sides of the same coin supporting something to screw people over.

[leftstreet]

1. K&R

:thumbsup:

[StarfarerBill]

2. K&R

[Little Star]

3. k&r

[fascisthunter]

4. Well Said (nt)

[LastNaturalist]

5. Wow I agree with you.

I can't see that happening a lot....

[Goldstein1984]

6. Well said

I left the Democratic Party and became an Independent ten years ago to put people and principles before platform and politics.

Rec

G1984

[Echo In Light]

7. Agreed

[txaslftist]

8. I wish I could recommend this over and over and over.

The federal reserve is one of the biggest con jobs ever foisted on the American people to transfer wealth from average people to a select few.

Most people don't know that the federal reserve isn't even a government organization. It is a coalition of uber-rich bankers who connived their way in 1913 into a license to steal the rest of us blind.

[cali]

9. and there are some people you don't ally yourself with.

[txaslftist]

10. a fact that is pretty well known by our dividers and conquerers.

[FLAprogressive]

12. Yep. Desperate times call for desperate measures and we need to align with whoever we can to get

important things done. Even if we want them done for different reasons.

[txaslftist]

14. I dunno if we can even do it.

Assuming arguendo that we could convince our folks to give up our fierce hatred of the common folks of the "other side" I don't even know if the numbers would be enough to change the outcome. Nobody who calls himself a "liberal" is going to be a Ron Paul fan, and no Ron Paul fan is going to come over to Kucinich. Since those two epitomize populism, I'm afraid we are pretty effectively divided and conquered.

[LeftishBrit]

26. That's what too many people thought in desperate, 1930s Europe.

And the results were unspeakably awful.

[FLAprogressive]

30. And here come the nazi/hitler comparisons.

[LeftishBrit]

40. You don't think there's a comparison to be made between extreme right-wingers and Nazis?

I will concede that not every encouragement of or alliance with far-right movements will lead to the absolute extremes of Hitler and the Holocaust. But, even well short of that, allying oneself with racist movements, or those that scapegoat minority groups in general, is not an acceptable price to pay for opposing the establishment. We should oppose the establishment in favour of getting something BETTER, not something WORSE.

Ultimately, what this all implies is: "In a desperate situation, it is OK to throw vulnerable and minority groups under the bus, and to turn a blind eye to those who would crush them, if they share some of the same enemies."

[FLAprogressive]

41. All Nazis are right wingers but not all right wingers are Nazis.

[LeftishBrit]

24. It's not being 'divided and conquered' to refuse to ally yourself with MONSTERS

And all far-right-wing leaders ARE monsters!

It is being 'divided and conquered' when Jews and Muslims allow themselves to be divided against each other; when poor white people and non-white immigrants allow themselves to be divided against each other; when young and old allow themselves to be divided against each other; when low-paid workers and unemployed people allow themselves to be divided against each other; when men and women allow themselves to be divided against each other. In all such cases, I would fully agree that 'we must all hang together or we will all hang separately'. But the left (and indeed, all decent people) SHOULD separate themselves from the far right. It is the right-wingers who, by encouraging xenophobia and harshness, do divide the ethnic minorities from each other, the sexes and ages from each other, and who will ultimately 'hang' us all if given any encouragement!

[FLAprogressive]

27. When we fight amongst ourselves the DC corporate elite laughs all the way to the bank

[LeftishBrit]

29. And when we don't 'fight among ourselves' the modern-day Blackshirts rub their hands and hope for a

new generation of fascist xenophobic power.

[FLAprogressive]

33. Again with the Nazi comparisons.......what a shame

[LeftishBrit]

36. What a shame, indeed, that progressives are prepared to consider allying themselves with racists and

xenophobes!

[FLAprogressive]

37. Barack Obama aligned himself with Rick Warren, a noted RW homophobe. Is Barack Obama a Nazi?

Answer the question.

[LeftishBrit]

39. No; though it certainly wasn't his finest hour.

However, if he went around *consistently* linking hands with right-wing homophobes; if he actively endorsed and campaigned for Proposition 8, and if he expressed acceptance of the proposed Ugandan laws making homosexuality a capital offence, then he would be, if not himself a fascist, certainly an enabler of fascism.

[FLAprogressive]

45. what has been "consistent" with Hamsher or anyone else? Obama consistently hung around the likes of

Warren and McClurkin.

[LeftishBrit]

46. I was not commenting on Hamsher in particular...

I don't know enough about the issue with her -though if it is true that she thinks we can make common cause with Grover 'government should be small enough to be drowned in a bathtub' Norquist, then I think she is very definitely wrong.

But I was replying in a more general sense to the comment that 'some issues transcend left and right'. Which has come up several times.

In fact what made me argue so vehemently on this thread today is not Hamsher, but the fact that earlier in the day I saw a post on another thread which expressed some sympathy for Pat Buchanan. And it wasn't the first time. And I do consider him to be a borderline Nazi. I can now see why you objected so much to the Nazi comparisons if you were thinking of Norquist. He is, from all I know, a disgusting, callous, right-wing, worse-than-Thatcherite, greedy, big-business-loving, poor-people-hating bastard. whom all progressives should run a mile from - but not a Nazi. But Buchanan *is* semi-Nazi as well as most of the other things that apply to Norquist.

As regards Obama: I am an ardent supporter of church-state separation, and church disestablishment in my own country, and thus strongly disapprove of presidents bringing 'pastors' into government *at all*. So far as I know, however, there has never been a president who did not bring religion into government to some degree, so one cannot single Obama out. Despite our not having official church-state separation, most of our recent PMs have not done so openly - but Blair did to a dangerous degree.

[FLAprogressive]

47. Ew, where have I ever expressed symptahy for Pat Buchanan?

I deeply resent that accusation. Please show me a link.

[LeftishBrit]

49. Good God! I didn't accuse YOU of doing so! The post I meant was not from you.

I merely meant that I am particularly sensitive today to the idea that the left should tolerate or work with the far right, because I had seen that post.

It is a particular concern for me in general, as you will see if you look at my journal.

I would probably not have expressed myself QUITE as vehemently if I had realized that you were referring just to the economic right rather than the xenophobic right, though I don't agree with joining hands with either.

[FLAprogressive]

53. Oops, I saw a "you" in your post where there wasn't one. my bad

[LeftishBrit]

55. Thanks. And I in turn apologize for a misunderstanding..

Because I didn't know the background to the thread, I misunderstood your 'while we are fighting among ourselves...' post as one of *those* posts to the effect that 'right and left are just artificial labels that the elite have used to divide us; the left should get together with right-wing populists such as 'teabaggers' to create an anti-elite movement'. I realize now that you meant 'while the left are fighting ourselves and attacking Hamsher instead of our real enemies'. Apologies!

[txaslftist]

31. "all right wing leaders are MONSTERS" -seriously?

I think if you took time to actually analyze their opinions you might find many ordinary people among those "MONSTERS". Sure, Cheney, the PNAC crew, Bush ... those guys are monsters. But there are also folks like Ron Paul on the right, too.

[LeftishBrit]

42. The only reason why Ron Paul is less of a monster than Bush or Cheney..

is that they had lots of power and he fortunately doesn't.

Here are some quotes *from a speech on Ron Paul's own website*. Is this the sort of person whom one would wish to have in power?

'A Republic, If You Can Keep It’ by Dr. Ron Paul, U.S. Representative from Texas

Address to the U.S. House of Representatives delivered on the Floor of the House January 31 - February 2, 2000

....The modern-day welfare state has steadily grown since the Great Depression of the 1930s. The federal government is now involved in providing health care, houses, unemployment benefits, education, food stamps to millions, plus all kinds of subsidies to every conceivable special-interest group. Welfare is now part of our culture, costing hundreds of billions of dollars every year. It is now thought to be a "right," something one is "entitled" to. Calling it an "entitlement" makes it sound proper and respectable and not based on theft. Anyone who has a need, desire, or demand and can get the politicians' attention will get what he wants, even though it may be at the expense of someone else. Today it is considered morally right and politically correct to promote the welfare state. Any suggestion otherwise is considered political suicide.
.
....It is now accepted that people who need (medical) care are entitled to it as a right. This is a serious error in judgment.

...Probably the most significant change in attitude that occurred in the 20th Century was that with respect to life itself. Although abortion has been performed for hundreds if not thousands of years, it was rarely considered an acceptable and routine medical procedure without moral consequence. Since 1973 abortion in America has become routine and justified by a contorted understanding of the right to privacy. The difference between American's rejection of abortions at the beginning of the century, compared to today's casual acceptance, is like night and day. Although a vocal number of Americans express their disgust with abortion on demand, our legislative bodies and the courts claim that the procedure is a constitutionally protected right, disregarding all scientific evidence and legal precedents that recognize the unborn as a legal living entity deserving protection of the law. Ironically the greatest proponents of abortion are the same ones who advocate imprisonment for anyone who disturbs the natural habitat of a toad.

....The welfare system has mocked the concept of marriage in the name of political correctness, economic egalitarianism, and hetero-phobia.


....Any academic discussion questioning the wisdom of our policies surrounding World War II is met with shrill accusations of anti-Semitism and Nazi lover. No one is even permitted without derision by the media, the university intellectuals, and the politicians to ask why the United States allied itself with the murdering Soviets and then turned over Eastern Europe to them...'

[FLAprogressive]

44. You falsely equate being able to work with someone to wanting them in power.

[leftstreet]

13. Absolutely! I'm tired of our elected Reps aligning themselves with Big Biz

[cali]

15. me too. that doesn't make aligning yourself with the likes of Grover Norquist

or the teabaggers any less repugnant.

[LeftishBrit]

43. So am I.

I don't like ANYONE of the supposed left aligning themselves with the far-right, whether it's Blair and 'New Labour' aligning itself with Bush or the bankers, or progressives proposing alliances with Ron Paul and the 'teabaggers'.

[juno jones]

11. K&R! n/t

[varelse]

16. It is high time this point was made

we've seen so many uses of the term, mostly in apologia for the DC kind. :(

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. Racism, for example.

[FLAprogressive]

18. who mentioned anything about individuals within the teabagger movement?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

19. Teabagger movement?

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought that was a picture of Jane Hamsher.

[Le Taz Hot]

57. I've talked with enough teabaggers to KNOW

that the person you (and the MSM) CHOOSE to put the spotlight on are NOT representative of your average teabaggers. During the peace marches before the IWR vote, anarchists showed up in a few cities and were bad little boys and girls. We're talking MAYBE 12-15 of them. As opposed to the hundreds or even thousands that did not share their beliefs. Who did the MSM AND the extremist right wing focus on? The anarchists. Ironically, as it turns out, it seems that you and the bigots have a WHOLE LOT in common.

[LeftishBrit]

20. I suppose that there are some issue that unite everyone..

but there is a real difference between left and right (or rather between far-right and everyone else) that we should NEVER forget.

Far-right-wingers believe all or most of the following:


that foreigners are evil and/or inferior;

that racial and social minority groups are suitable scapegoats;

that government provision of social services, or of benefits to prevent or relieve poverty, is wrong;

that 'healthcare is not a right';

that the tough should have the right to prevail over the vulnerable (usually including, but not limited to, the belief that the rich should have the unfettered right to prevail over the poor);

that 'there is no such thing as society' (Thatcher);

that women should be subservient to men.

All such views are pure evil (or, for those who dislike the word 'evil', are extremely dangerous), and NOTHING can ever transcend them. We should never accept such viewpoints as valid, even when they are held by people who have some of the same enemies.

[FLAprogressive]

21. No one says we have to align with right-wingers on any of those issues.

[LeftishBrit]

34. Good.

But these issues are the essence of being far-right.

[FLAprogressive]

35. Obama aligned himself with the far right Rick Warren. Is he a Nazi?

[LeftishBrit]

38. Obama isn't. I don't know enough about Rick Warren to say about him.

I do know that Blair aligned himself with the far right-wingers Bush and Cheney and that the consequences were pretty terrible.

If a group spreads racism; if they scapegoat immigrants; or if they believe that 'healthcare isn't a right' and that any sort of social safety net 'softens' people who ought to be rugged individualists - then they are *scum* and their views should never be accepted as valid.

If they happen to be against something that we are also against (e.g. when xenophobic-isolationists are against the war because it involves too much contact with foreigners), then by all means let us welcome their 'casting vote', but let us never compromise our principles and beliefs to accommodate theirs!

[txaslftist]

25. Horsepucky.

far righters don't believe all that stuff. Not even a majority of it.

Demonizing people because they are on the other side of a political argument makes it impossible to resolve anything.

The "right" is as diverse as the "left" in the US. We have done a pretty good job of alienating ourselves from the right; almost as good a job as the Limbaughs and Hannities of the world have done alienating the right from us.

[LeftishBrit]

32. Of course they do!

[unblock]

22. like helping out new orleans, for instance.

regarding fed transparancy, any reluctance on their part to greater transparency is highly suggestive that their pockets are actually not nearly as deep as they would like us to believe.



in which case we're in deep, DEEP doo-doo regardless. transparency would only serve to speed up a massive catastrophe that would make the great recession look like boom years.

[FLAprogressive]

23. so we should have zero oversight over who controls our money supply?

[unblock]

52. i didn't suggest that, nor do i advocate that

i merely pointed out that if there is a serious problem there, we're screwed either way, it's just a matter of timing.

with few exceptions for ACTUAL national security (as opposed to what republicans call national security, i.e., whatever suits their purposes), i'm a big supporter of government transparency.

[Odin2005]

28. And us Libertarianish folks on both the Left AND Right hate the Mandate.

[Are_grits_groceries]

48. There are some people who are beyond the pale.

Grover Norquist is one of them. He and those allied with him have been prime movers in conservative circles for years. They are one of the reasons the government is in the state it is in. I don't want to be allied with him on ANYTHING.

[WeDidIt]

50. When somebody from the FAR left goes so far left that they come up from the right

I'm done with them.

The far right and the far left are equally batshit insane.

[ipaint]

51. Bullshit.

"And as for the FISA Act, the netroots groups such as Dailykos, Open Left, and other groups partnered with conservative and libertarian groups in opposing the FISA bill. Here's a good rundown of the history of the FISA bill and the opposition to it here.

And as for the letter that Firedoglake signed onto with major left groups and conservative and libertarian groups, it was also signed by these groups below in opposition to Ben Bernanke's nomination. Letters like these get co-signed all the time in D.C. where common interests verge on populist issues. Here's the list below:

Ryan Alexander, president, Taxpayers for Common Sense
Chris Bowers, founder, OpenLeft
Dean Baker, co-director, Center for Economic and Policy Research
Robert Borosage, co-director, Campaign for America's Future
Danielle Brian, executive director, Project On Government Oversight
Mark Calabria, director of financial regulation studies, Cato Institute
Mark Cohen, executive director, Government Accountability Project
Tom DeWeese, president, American Policy Center
Tyler Durden, founder, Zero Hedge
Sandra Fabry, executive director, Center for Fiscal Accountability
James Kenneth Galbraith, economist
Adam Green, co-founder, Progressive Change Campaign Committee
George Goehl, executive director, National People's Action
Jane Hamsher, founder, FireDogLake
Gary Kalman, Washington director, Public Interest Research Group
Matt Kibbe, president, FreedomWorks
Grover Norquist, president, Americans for Tax Reform
Duane Parde, president, National Taxpayers Union
Aaron Swartz, co-founder, Progressive Change Campaign Committee
Phyllis Schlafly, president, Eagle Forum
John Tate, president, Campaign for Liberty
John Taylor, CEO, National Community Reinvestment Coalition
Stephanie Taylor, co-founder, Progressive Change Campaign Committee
Robert Weissman, president, Public Citizen
John Whitehead, president, The Rutherford Institute

http://wwww.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/20/817331/-A-History-Of-Strange-Alliances


The histrionics are a bit much.

[FLAprogressive]

54. I guess if we oppose FISA we're wingnut racists now. Who knew.

[Le Taz Hot]

56. I've been saying this for months

about the teabaggers. The vast majority are not racist bigots just as the vast majority on the left are not anarchists. There really IS a commonality there.

[SanchoPanza]

58. Ron Paul is not a Paleoconservative

He's an anarcho-capitalist who doesn't even want there to be a Federal Reserve and is hoping that something comes up in the audit that he can go all Murray Rothbard about. He wants to move U.S. currency back to gold and silver, which at this junction would cause a deflationary spiral that would make the Great Depression look tame by comparison.

There's also a movement on the left to bring monetary policy under the control of the legislature by painting the Fed as a proxy of anti-democratic financial interests. Essentially allowing Congress to print money. Causing an inflationary peak that would make the 70s look tame by comparison.

People like Grayson argue for it out of transparency principles.

One of these is a sane position to hold.

[JCMach1]

59. And I always thought Paul was a right-Libertarian

:crazy: