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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 06:10 PM
Original message
Barack Obama in the White House
There's a black man in the White House!

Those of you who grew up in the 60s or 70s might recognize the inspiration for that turn of a phrase. It's a play on a somewhat common exclamation in certain households, expressing a pleasant if sometimes distrustful surprise that the powers-that-be in television-land had, through the power of their their holy office, deemed it acceptable to portray a black person on television. Some will find the phrase offensive, as was clearly demonstrated on DU some months ago when a newbie who did know what it meant offered it up as an original post in General Discussion. Others won't understand it at all. Some will chuckle. Some will roll their eyes and move on. But some will, because they've paid attention to the first year of President Barack Obama's term of office and have a keen awareness of the still sorry state of race relations in the United States, recognize it for what it is, a sardonic reference to the fact that many, many white people find it incredibly odd that there's a guy with dark skin sitting in the Oval Office. What's worse, that black guy simply isn't acting like a lot of white people believe he should act.

I offer that paragraph as an introduction to and summary of some thoughts I shared with a friend via e-mail the other day. I said at the time I wrote the e-mail that I was doing so because I felt I had to get the words out to someone who could understand them but that I "do not dare" do so in a political discussion forum. I guess I dare.

As you can see, this is long. It's not really written around the concept of forum posting and so may be hard to read. I've tried to add some formatting and have, believe it or not, omitted long sections. I salute you if you're able and willing to wade through it.

The e-mail I originally wrote was based in part on some shared experiences between my friend and me but was inspired by a thought that has been building in my mind since even before Obama was assured of the Democratic nomination. As I said to him, "I've had this thought running through my head for awhile now, gathering evidence like a bee gathers pollen dust, and it won't go away no matter how many times I swat it. Every day that passes makes what I wish weren't true seem more true, and I have not been able to find anything to convince me otherwise, despite actively looking." So, I've stopped swatting. A time comes when the evidence you see must be the evidence you accept. Recent events on DU specifically have indicated to me it would be foolish to do otherwise.

The personal events specific to my friend and me have been mostly redacted from this piece because they would make absolutely no sense to anyone without my offering a long and convoluted back-story. In its place, I have added commentary of a different sort that attempts to bring together introduction and conclusion using the words I wrote to him without changing the underlying, intended meaning.

---

I'm just a dumb white guy from the South with a thick accent and bad teeth, but I know a few things. One thing I know is this. There are an awful lot of people who claim to be liberals or progressives or leftists -- or whatever they want to call themselves today – who have a hot streak of racial prejudice running through them that has been blatantly exposed with the election of Barack Obama. I don't doubt they, for the most part, mean well, but I don't doubt that Horace Greeley meant well either when he expressed the idea that the seceded states forming the Confederacy should be allowed to peaceably exit so as to expel the “sin of slavery” from an association with them and, in his view, the inherently moral United States of America. Too bad, Greeley implied but did not directly say, that all the enslaved get to remain that way. At least it doesn't make me look bad. Road to Hell. Good intentions. Yadda, yadda.

I've been a liberal all my life. That's what I call myself when speaking of political ideology. I first used the phrase as a self-reference about the time I was twelve, inspired by my grandmother, a child of the Lost Generation who lived through WWI, the Depression, WWII, and countless struggles afterward. She was a liberal, though some in this ultra-conservative state said she was a confused conservative because she was an old white lady who didn't know any better, thus proving her own point that “none of these bastards has the first damn clue what I am, and they wouldn't understand it even if I told them.” My grandma was an example to me. She taught me that no one else may define who I am as no one was allowed to define who she was, else suffer her wrath in the attempt. What she taught me also, by extension, is that people will try to define you, are compelled by their own prejudices to do so, and if you do not meet the expectations of that definition, they will denounce you, attempt to overwhelm you, to deny you your agency, and ultimately attempt to break you of the desire to exercise it.

My grandmother died long before the election of Barack Obama, or anyone like him, was more than a dream in some idealist's eye, but she predicted his coming, and she predicted his reception. During the 1984 election season, she saw Jesse Jackson, and she liked him, but she said, “He'd be dead before he took the oath.” I asked her why she said that, underneath thinking that my grandma herself had just exposed a racial insensitivity I had at that time not been aware existed in her. She replied, words to the effect of, “He's too certain of himself, to much his own man, and in this day and age that still gets black men shot at. Jesse Jackson won't do what others tell him to do. He'll only do what he tells himself to do.” The more complete version of what she meant, as I learned over time, was that she believed those who would support him would expect him to act a certain way just as much as those who opposed him would expect him to act in another way. Neither would be satisfied with the way he would act, and the sorry state of race relations would ensure, in her view, that he would never be allowed to exercise the genuine power of the office he sought, not by his supporters or his detractors. He would, she thought, attempt to do what he said he would do, but few would have listened to it.

Conversations with my grandmother in which this subject was raised came back to me recently as I pondered our current political predicament, specifically thinking about how self-described progressives, liberals, etc. have turned against, in the most vile ways, the man many had helped elect as President in November of 2008. Times had changed, I initially thought to myself. Finally, finally a man was elected regardless of the color of his skin. Finally we have moved past that barrier, and my grandma was wrong or would have been wrong had she been extending her assessment into the future. A black man did take the oath. People did listen to him. People believed in what he had to say and what he would do.

But I've come to understand recently that Grandma was right, just not in the details.

I went to college and learned a few more things about individual agency and the struggle to exercise it that minorities have faced throughout this nation's existence. I came to know through study one Frederick Douglass, a man who has inspired me at least as much as my grandmother, even though I, of course, never knew him and even though we, on the surface, had very little in common.

On April 14, 1876, one of the finest orators, one of the finest minds of the 19th century stood before a mixed-race audience at Lincoln Park in Washington D.C. and presented one of, if not the most memorable speeches of his long, storied career. The man was Frederick Douglass, and he had, for a mere eleven years, been able to refer to himself as a man as it was legally recognized in the United States of America, yet he had within that time achieved the status of a intellectual giant, quite an accomplishment for a man of a race that had been legally considered inherently inferior a mere decade before. A man he had been, but not in the eyes of the law, not within a legal system that held within its grip millions of his countrymen as chattel and among the rest of the nation as little more than an annoyance to be shunned, deported, or simply forgotten if possible.

Douglass was there to provide remarks at the dedication of a memorial to Abraham Lincoln. His being chosen as a speaker was not universally well received. Many whites, notably the powerful financiers and captains of industry who would be the impetus behind the compromise of 1877 that ended Reconstruction and surrendered the effort to provide for equality of the races, felt he was too radical. Many blacks, most of whom had perceived little change from the antebellum years beyond a change in the words used to dictate their enslavement, found him too conservative. Douglass was neither conservative nor liberal, neither radical nor reactionary. He was his own man with his own ideas and his own vision of what had been, was, and could be. He had been his own man since the day he lifted himself up through the power of his own agency and left his enslavement to achieve the status of a man, not a device.

Ironically, to some, Douglass had first publicly exercised his individual agency in opposition to those who perceived themselves to be his great benefactors when he broke with that great abolitionist William Lloyd Garrison. Garrison and Douglass had, almost from their first meeting, been allies, but the surface appearances of their relationship had obscured an underlying tension. Garrison, like most abolitionists of his day, saw himself through a paternalistic lens, as an individual whose status as a white man empowered him beyond the abilities of a black man, or a man of any other race, to effect positive change in the world. His ideas were better, more refined, more pure. He took Douglass under his wing, but at length, he failed to recognize that Douglass was an independent soul with his own ideas, his own opinions, and his own abilities. Douglass eventually broke his alliance with Garrison over the matter of the best route to achieving universal independence, with Garrison decrying the Constitution as a foundation of an inherently slaveholding republic that should be discarded entirely while Douglass eventually came to see it as an imperfect device that, when properly interpreted, could be perfected and that could and should be used to secure both freedom and equality of all Americans of his or any other race or sex.

Douglass's road to freedom had not been of the legendary type, the one in which a rebellious refugee from the horrors of the black belt walked off the plantation and ran North into freedom and tried all he could to disappear into the sparse crowd of those exhibiting similar racial characteristics. He had indeed escaped from slavery in that traditional fashion, but unlike many who had not the resources nor the wherewithal to think beyond the moment of freedom, Douglass did not stop there. He referred to his day of personal emancipation as "a time of joyous excitement which words can but tamely describe" and that he had "lived more in one day than in a year of my slave life." However, Douglass was aware of the laws, aware of the practicalities, and when he went North, he sought out a legal remedy to his situation even before his break with Garrison, but suggesting the circumstances under which that break would occur. He did not challenge the law with contempt. He challenged it by using it as a tool. Upon a visit to England in 1845 a group of British anti-slavery advocates, led by Ellen Richardson, purchased him, securing, according to the law, his perpetual freedom.

And then, as before, he went to work. By the time of his speech given a decade after the end of the Civil War, Douglass had amassed for himself accolades beyond the imaginings of most of those who had once and many who still claimed his inherent inferiority due to his race. A significant portion of his ability to achieve that status was due in no small part to the man he was there to commemorate. Still, he spoke of Abraham Lincoln in honest terms, not as a patrician, but as a cohort. Lincoln was, according to Douglass, "preeminently the white man's President. . ."

But granting this, Douglass later in the same speech asserted:

When, therefore, it shall be asked what we have to do with the memory of Abraham Lincoln, or what Abraham Lincoln had to do with us, the answer is ready, full, and complete. Though he loved Caesar less than Rome, though the Union was more to him than our freedom or our future, under his wise and beneficent rule we saw ourselves gradually lifted from the depths of slavery to the heights of liberty and manhood; under his wise and beneficent rule, and by measures approved and vigorously pressed by him, we saw that the handwriting of ages, in the form of prejudice and proscription, was rapidly fading away from the face of our whole country; under his rule, and in due time, about as soon after all as the country could tolerate the strange spectacle, we saw our brave sons and brothers laying off the rags of bondage, and being clothed all over in the blue uniforms of the soldiers of the United States; under his rule we saw two hundred thousand of our dark and dusky people responding to the call of Abraham Lincoln, and with muskets on their shoulders, and eagles on their buttons, timing their high footsteps to liberty and union under the national flag; under his rule we saw the independence of the black republic of Haiti, the special object of slave-holding aversion and horror, fully recognized, and her minister, a colored gentleman, duly received here in the city of Washington; under his rule we saw the internal slave-trade, which so long disgraced the nation, abolished, and slavery abolished in the District of Columbia; under his rule we saw for the first time the law enforced against the foreign slave trade, and the first slave-trader hanged like any other pirate or murderer; under his rule, assisted by the greatest captain of our age, and his inspiration, we saw the Confederate States, based upon the idea that our race must be slaves, and slaves forever, battered to pieces and scattered to the four winds; under his rule, and in the fullness of time, we saw Abraham Lincoln, after giving the slave-holders three months' grace in which to save their hateful slave system, penning the immortal paper, which, though special in its language, was general in its principles and effect, making slavery forever impossible in the United States. Though we waited long, we saw all this and more.


That quote is rarely offered in its entirety. It is a single paragraph from a much longer speech, and one can cherry pick from it smaller elements to make any point they want to make about what Douglass intended to say. I offer that paragraph in its entirety to allow you to see the nuance it expresses, to allow you to see that Douglass, more than most, saw the bigger picture.

Douglass recognized that he and his people were used by Lincoln but that in so doing Lincoln was able to do for them what no one had been able to do before. Still, as Douglass takes care to mention, the black man took up his own weapon, fought his own battle, and acted on his own agency. The words here force us to recognize, if we take it in full and interpreted it in context, that Douglass allowed for the idea of thanks for the help, but insisted that the help the oppressed truly needed was the simple ability to be allowed to do it themselves in equal cooperation with others. They had their own goals, distinct from the dominant culture's goals, but in the end these goals were no less or more than what all men and women living in a free and egalitarian society should and would seek together without being told what to do, given the chance.

Barack Obama was by some measures the least progressive of the major candidates for the Democratic nomination for President. On the other hand, with matters of policy, the differences between the major candidates were matters of degree, not of kind. Not a great deal of difference existed, in other words, and where differences did exist, they were of a type that were essentially irrelevant given that the head of the Executive branch does not create policy, no matter how much political wonks with poor journalism skills want us to think otherwise. Yet he was championed by some, a minority it seems, as the voice of progressive causes. Those on the right side of the political aisle sought to brand him a socialist, and even as liberals sought to deny this, they to branded him with labels of their own devising. The political reality of today is that some progressives, at least as much as conservatives, have projected their own desires into the interpretation of Obama's so-called campaign promises and find themselves at the very least disappointed and at the ultimate, enraged. I am led to ask myself, from whence does this interpretation, this disappointment, this outrage come?

And then I return to my grandmother's thoughts and words as well as a few lessons from history that have been imparted to me by years of curious study.

They thought they owned him.

One can disagree with Obama's decisions, appointments, and performance and maintain an intellectually honest position. This is not about whether Obama is right or wrong, nor whether his detractors are justified in criticizing him. The manner of these criticisms, and the tone they take, however, leave questions to be answered, and both those questions and the potential answers do not paint a benevolent picture of his detractors. In the end, this reduces the power of the argument progressives make and provides one more nail in the coffin of irrelevance they have been building to bury their political ambitions since the turn of the century, once removed.

I am coming to believe, to put a fine point on it, that many progressives saw Barack Obama as a black man, not as a politician, nor even a man, a tool to be used. When he was elected, he became the first black man to reach that high office, one of the few racial minorities in any so-called Western nation to have ascending to such a position of power. He instantly became a symbol for the culmination of one aspect of the civil rights movements, an icon of success in the battle against oppression. A black man is, or should be according to this view, a liberal of the first order. He has, by his very station on the morning of January 20, 2009, been the beneficiary of all those good, white, suburban liberals who fought against their class and race interests and demanded that racial minorities have recognized and protected all the rights they had enjoyed for well over a century. "We were there to save you, my black brother. There. There on the altar of democracy is your trophy, our trophy. We have won a victory that has allowed you to rise to your potential, and now you owe us. We own your political legacy and will shape it in our image."

What progressives are beginning to discover, like the slave owner in the waning days of 1865, is that they never owned anyone and never will own Barack Obama. The slave who left the plantation even before the Yankee army arrived had been, many planters lamented, a loyal and happy servant, always there with a kind word and a helpful hand even when it was not demanded. What they did not realize, because their deep seeded racism and prejudices did not allow them to realize, was that these tools they sought to use had their own minds, their own desires, their own agency, just as my grandmother had, just as Frederick Douglass had, just as Barack Obama has.

Progressives should criticize President Obama if they believe his decisions are antithetical to their goals, but they must do so from a position of intellectual honesty to achieve any sort of relevance. Obama was never theirs, never claimed to be theirs. They brought him into their Big House, and he ate the food and smiled and shook hands on his way out the door, but the latter is the relevant point. He went out the door; he did not sleep underneath the comfy duvet made of hemp covering the Ikea couch. He is a left-leaning centrist and always has been. He promised to include progressives as a part of the process, which he has done. He also promised to include conservatives as a part of the process, and he has done that also. He never promised to exclude anyone. The sum total of his parts is incredibly progressive, more progressive than any President in the last quarter century at least, but some of the individual parts are more conservative. This is who he is. It is always who he has been, and his right to exercise his own agency will not be denied.

Some progressives have built a dogma around the idea that the Democratic party must stop taking them for granted. A subset of this group need to look in a mirror and see how the argument they espouse could be applied to them. They must also stop looking the black man in the nasal bridge and assuming, because of his skin tone and experiences, that he is naturally an ardent ally who will do their bidding. They must stop this also with the homosexual, with the poor, with women, the illiterate, and the downtrodden. They must stop seeing these individuals as groups with collectivist opinions, beliefs, and needs. They need to rid themselves of their prejudices and look at the examples of the individuals typified by my grandmother, Frederick Douglass, and Barack Obama. They are who they say they are, not who others wish them to be.
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. K&R n/t
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. k and r
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
3. Nice
Captures things nicely. Wanna Borrow my flame proof suit?
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. I can only speak for myself
I am a progressive. I could care less what color the president is. But I have been livid over letting all the crimes of the Bush admin. slide.
I will remain angry.
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suzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #4
42. Are you a prosecutor?
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #42
57. no, just an American citizen
:shrug:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
5. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
CBR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
6. K & R nt
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newtothegame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
7. More to life than race people. Move on with your lives, live a little. n/t
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Says the poster with the MLK icon. haha
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newtothegame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. MLK's life wasn't about race. MLK's life was about love. Some people still haven't learned that. n/t
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. MLK was not Jesus. His message was civil rights for ALL.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. No. No. No. MLK was Mr. Burns.
Edited on Mon Jan-04-10 07:23 PM by Drunken Irishman


I bring you LOVE.
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. LOL!!! n/t
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #11
72. Thank Buddha For That!
If MLK had been Jesus, his message would have been contradictory, easily manipulated, thoroughly misinterpreted and ultimately used to destroy the free will of millions.
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. Ever read the "I have a dream" speech? Guess not. nt
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
84. nope. is was about race
just like the civil war.
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. Perhaps you should move on from telling other people what to care about.
Dweeb.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. Guess what ...
Edited on Mon Jan-04-10 09:10 PM by RoyGBiv
There are a lot of people who would love to do just that.

The problem is they keep being reminded they are of a certain race while the reminders keep pretending they aren't doing anything. Those of a certain race then are implicitly expected to act a certain way in deference to those who believe they know better, just like the paternalists of the 18th, 19th, 20th, and continuing on into the 21st centuries expected Douglass, DuBois, Sutton, King, Malcom, Jackson, etc. to acknowledge their assumed position and do as their "betters" told them.

I would love to move on. I am quite certain Barack Obama would love it even more than I could possibly appreciate.

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AspenRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #22
44. Yes. Perfectly said.
Some of us don't have the luxury to "move on." Racists will see to that. Pretty patronizing if you ask me. Just another way of saying "get over it!"

+1
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sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
67. I agree
but then I'm not American, so I don't understand the American obsession with race.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
9. Amazingly well written,
and truer words were never spoken; we do not own this man, and we should give him some respect, even when we disagree, as he would do the same to us, whether he was in a position of power or not.

Thanks! :hi:
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ljm2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
12. Well it's a nice essay and all...
...but I must point out, you are doing exactly what you are decrying, namely, talking about progressives as a group and telling them what they must think and what they must do. And you couldn't seem to help indulging in the "limousine liberal" cliche when you talked about the "hemp duvet on the Ikea couch."

Well in any case, this progressive never mistook Barack Obama for one; it was clear he was a centrist. But. He did make statements that he has since reneged on. Now sure, most Presidents do that. The question becomes one of degree: do they do it all the time? or just one or two things where their mind was changed? or did they decide it was not worth spending their political capital on a minor issue?

In Obama's case, I'm afraid, there are real concerns that he said one thing yet does another. "Everyone will be included in the discussions", he said of the health care debate; yet from the gate he invited the conservatives and industry while excluding single-payer advocates. That's pretty blatant. "I will be a fierce advocate of gay rights", he said, and then invited Rick Warren to his inauguration; and DADT is still in force in the military. "Transparent government", he said, and he has done some things in that direction but by and large, not. "Wall Street must be made accountable", he said, then proceeded to bring on board the most inside players you could imagine, right from the firms that brought us the debacle. "I'm against a mandate", he said, "and for a public option". Yet when push came to shove, he did not fight for a public option, and he did fight to make Democrats in the Senate cave to the slimy Lieberman in killing off the increased Medicare buy-in -- the very thing that Lieberman had publicly "supported" not 3 months earlier.

So while you thought a lot about this essay, clearly, and there are some good points, I think it is unfair to attribute paternalistic and racialist motives to progressives because they feel thrown under the bus by Mr. Obama. Not only that, but progressives (i.e. "the left") have hardly owned anything in the political arena: we are routinely demonized, chastised, and dismissed and that has been true for as long as I have been politically aware. To accuse us of thinking we "own" certain politicians is laughable. By the way: are we allowed to cheer on those whose policies we like, and who fight for their principles? Or is that, too, attempted "ownership" so we should just STFU??? Because that's what it sounds like. Seems we just have to keep our mouths shut or we risk being labeled with everything from thinking we own people, to being "unrealistic", to just having our heads screwed on sideways.

Pffft.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. Your premise is incorrect ...

I will quote myself here:

"Some progressives have built a dogma around the idea that the Democratic party must stop taking them for granted. A subset of this group need to look in a mirror and see how the argument they espouse could be applied to them."

Note the use of the words "some" and "subset."

Also note, in various other places, the use of qualifiers. These words were used intentionally and not to fill space. I am, in other words, talking about "some" self-proclaimed progressives, liberals, etc. as a group, and I am referring to a "subset" of those who have built a dogma of criticizing the party machinery of the Democratic Party for taking them for granted.

The problem you are experiencing is the problem all individuals experience who identify with a group and see certain members of that group criticized. You realize that the criticism may be directed toward you as an individual and so seek to protect yourself by protecting the larger, more diverse group, even though the sum total of that group may not agree with you and even though the criticism is not directed at another subset of that group.

I *am* a progressive. Clearly I am not directing the criticism at myself. Others who have responded to this post both here and elsewhere are also progressives, and the criticism was not direct at them either. The criticism is directed at certain individuals who themselves may be grouped due to a commonality I have attempted to identify, but that common trait is not of being a progressive.

Therefore, since I am not and clearly stated in the OP that I was not directing these observations or criticism at the whole of progressives, your subsequent commentary has missed its mark.

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ljm2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. Please spare me...
...the armchair psychoanalysis, which is off base anyway. It does, however, illustrate your willingness to attribute motives to others.

Using qualifiers does not absolve you of responsibility for your claim that "some" progressives thought they owned the black man in the White House, and comparing their alleged attitudes with racial paternalism. It is similar to the Fox News tactic of "some people are saying", so the commentator can inject their own views without any attribution. Only in this case it allows you to smear a group while claiming that is not what you're doing.

Sorry, not buying it.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #25
33. Obviously you're not convinced ...
Edited on Tue Jan-05-10 05:43 AM by RoyGBiv
I didn't expect you to be.

But here we have another example of your own tactic of attempting to shift the focus and create yet another false premise. The same tactic is being used against the President.

That would be the part where you tried to compare me to Fox News.

And I'll offer you a helpful correction. My follow-up comments were not armchair psychoanalysis. They were semi-professional rhetorical analysis. There's a rather significant difference in that.

It would be helpful for your case to attempt to address the original comments themselves rather than trying to deflect. Certainly I am responsible for using qualifiers and grouping "some" individuals together via actions, words, etc. The point, again, is that these individuals were grouped not primarily by a self-proclaimed political ideology but by a trait exhibited among a subset of a group with who proclaim a certain political ideology. You'll also note that early in the piece I implied a difference between those who claim an ideology for rhetorical purposes and those who actually act in a way that shows their adherence to that ideology. This is the difference between a prejudicial perception of how they might or should act and being critical of a group's actions in and of themselves.

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ljm2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #33
39. Talk about deflection...
...would you care to point out an actual instance of someone, somewhere, who criticizes Obama's policies because they just can't stand that the black man in the White House is his own man?

If not, then you are indeed engaging in similar tactics to Fox News, using an undefined group of people to magically prop up your own viewpoint. In their case, they claim that some undefined group holds their own views; in your case, you claim that some undefined group has motivations that you assign to them. Conveniently, in both cases, the listener / reader cannot make their own judgment because the group is never identified, so we cannot question them or look at their behavior and decide for ourselves whether the behavior indeed fits the motivations that have been assigned.

No matter, it's your own view and you have a right to it. I know you were not trying to be obnoxious or anything like that and neither am I (believe it or not). Yours is a thoughtful essay but I believe it misses the mark precisely because it does not identify the group of people to whom you refer, and to whom you assign motivations bordering on racism. I think that is an unfair thing for you to do, especially without actually defining who you are talking about, except to note that they are part of the progressive left who are critical of Obama.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #39
71. Was waiting for this ...

I'm surprised it didn't come sooner.

The OP is largely based on my personal observations of behavior I see in my life, on DU, and on several blogs often quoted by those same DUers.

The *original* piece I wrote, which has not and will not be posted, has references with links to specific incidents. These are not single messages nor single links to blogs, but specific analysis of a give and take between what a blog writer said, how someone interpreted, and how people responded to it. In addition, as mentioned in the OP, I made reference to several personal incidents familiar both to me and the recipient of the original piece. Explanation of these incidents would have required detailing far more back-story and personal history than would have been appropriate, or even believed.

This presents a problem.

I cannot, according to DU's rules, actually point to those posts or threads because it amounts to "calling out." I did not want this thread locked immediately after posting, so I had to keep that stuff out of it. In addition, while I could link to specific blogs, this is not a matter of a simple example of a single commentator making a "racist" or prejudicial remark. I could start, for example, with a piece about the reaction to Obama's Middle East speech earlier in the year, but the piece itself would tell you little. It's the popular reaction to that piece that matters.

Further, I wouldn't have done it anyway in this forum for a couple of reasons. First, believe it or not, I did not set out to insult anyone. (Now, certainly, I would like highlighting the behavior of specific individuals, but I'm not a mod, and doing so is useless in public here.) Second, as I said elsewhere, what I turned this into for the purposes of posting on DU is a thought-piece intended to make people think about a broad range of tactics used in criticizing the President. When giving singular examples, it is too easy to look at that single example and believe one's self not to be a part of what is in reality a broader range of behavior. If I made the OP about the Middle East speech, which is actually one thing I went into at length with my friend, readers would have seen it as about that and nothing else and would have mostly ignored it. Almost anything can be discounted or denied in such terms.

All that said, I'll give you the outline of a specific example, but, again, DU rules prevent me from pointing to the individuals or the thread involved that I have in mind. We have seen quite often on this forum the President criticized for the actions or inaction of Congress. When someone has disagreed with the criticism being laid squarely at the President's feet, a common response has been something along the lines of the President not doing enough with his so-called "bully pulpit" to "force" Congress into doing what he wants done.

Almost every element of what I discussed in the OP is evident in these exchanges, and the shape of this criticism could be deconstructed to show that clearly. As just an example, those such engaged in criticizing the President for not "forcing" Congress to his will are attempting to remove his agency the way he deems best, the way he *said* he would approach Congress and enacting issues during his campaign. This is not about disagreement with policy. The President is not making policy in these cases. He has told Congress what he wants, and he has maneuvered in the way he believes best suited to getting what he can. People aren't disagreeing with the policy, per se. They're disagreeing with the manner in which the policy is being made, and they are blaming one man for it because, from their perception, he is not doing it the way they want him to do it, even though it's the way he said he would do it and is, arguably, one of few reasonable ways any of it could be done. (The other alternative is declaring himself dictator, and if you want that, you have other problems.)

They are, in other words, projecting their own base wants onto him, deeming their own ideas more "pure" than those of the President, implicitly assuming him ignorant and themselves more intelligent, and demanding that the President pay them back for the support they gave him by doing it, i.e. they are denying his agency and thinking they own him.

It has been implied that I used stories and the words of Frederick Douglass in a dishonest manner in order to obscure what I am really saying or somehow to make people "like" this that wouldn't otherwise. I will explain here briefly that I used Frederick Douglass in this piece precisely due to his relationship with Abraham Lincoln. In fact, I mentioned three individuals who fit the same mold, and it is that mold that many progressives today continue to fit, but in an age where many seem to believe we are well beyond that sort of paternalism. I submit that we are not.

In summary, and pulling it back to where I began, when I first referred to this little piece, I called it "something of an essay." I called it that because it isn't a formal one, not like something I would write for publication as a scholarly article. I never originally intended to post it. I was asked to do so, and eventually decided on my own that I should. You are correct in desiring to see examples, and I offer this piece merely as a framework, a thought piece, against which you may critique the manner in which this President has been and is being criticized that differs widely from the manner in which many former Presidents have been. The examples are all over the place.

If that's not enough for you, I'm sorry. It's all I can offer here without igniting a flame war.
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ljm2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. Understand that you can't call out fellow DUers...
...and since apparently that is where your examples were drawn from, I can understand that you did not choose to do that.

Still, it's a pretty heavy charge to lay, and it does impute motives. And the racial element is always touchy. So I am probably as surprised as I think you must be that this thread did not turn into an all-out flame war.

In fairness, though, I do think that President Obama is to blame for some of the reactions, in that he presented himself as perhaps more forceful and less of an insider than how he has played it since taking office. So rather than people being angry that he's his own man, perhaps some of the anger is that he is not the man he represented himself to be. Or in some cases, that his followers projected onto him as being.

Actually if the essay had been less rooted in race, and perhaps not just about Obama, I think there is some real insight there on the topic of people becoming disillusioned with leaders. Just think of Bush vs. the fundamentalists, who gradually came to understand that George Bush was not really one of them, or the very rightwing and fiscal conservatives who found that what the got was not what they thought they were going to get. Perhaps there is some psychological issue going on there; I would attribute it more to projection rather than to a feeling of ownership, though.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #73
76. Ownership is a metaphor ...
Edited on Wed Jan-06-10 01:56 AM by RoyGBiv
... and I think it's appropriate. Stepping back from race, the fundamentalists did indeed think they owned Bush. But, fundamentalists believed Bush was theirs because he had chosen his course, that he "chose" to be theirs. He had, after all, been a hard drinker, a drug user, and a womanizer. Forgetting for a moment that many fundamentalists are fundamentally (pun intended) hypocritical about these things, they still see it as sinful, and they see someone who openly engages in these behaviors as someone who isn't one of them. If one chooses to disavow this lifestyle (even if they continue it in secret or do it in a way that can be denied or equivocated) that person can then be an ally.

It is different with Obama among *some* of his critics. And race is most certainly a part of this. Obama did not choose to be a left wing liberal, yet was embraced by many left-wing ideologues as one of their own and promptly projected their belief system upon him, or more importantly, their desired strategies for getting done what they want done. He did not keep anything secret, and he did not disavow his past. He was seen as a natural ally and a natural follower of their desired strategy despite everything he said. Why? More and more, in my view, the clear answer is that he was seen this way due to his race. Clearly, according to this view, a black man will be an ally. He is one of theirs because he cannot be anything else, not and be "honest" about who he is and where he comes from.

Before making a final comment that briefly addresses some of your points, I want to add this.

Again looking back at some of my original writing on this that didn't make it into the "for DU" cut, some of the same people who are openly denouncing Obama as an extension of Bush have, in the recent past, defended Kennedy for his part in our involvement in Vietnam. I am paraphrasing here, but the logic behind the argument is precise. Kennedy was getting us out of Vietnam, but he was killed before he could do so. Kennedy was undermined by the military. Kennedy knew he couldn't just remove all those soldiers in one day because it would have hurt us and the Vietnamese people. Kennedy was *trying*. He didn't fail. He was failed by others. Kennedy's failures are explained. Obama's failures are sources of condemnation and comparisons to one of the most evil individuals ever to hold the office of President.

Also there is LBJ, whose name was invoked in this very thread, as though just mentioning his name was all that was required to discount everything I suggested. Some of the same thinking has gone into expressions on DU that while LBJ may have escalated Vietnam, at least he brought us the Great Society. And then we reverse ourselves and *blame* Obama for not being more like LBJ. Obama should have strongarmed Congress the way JBJ did. (Never mind Bill Moyer's part in that.) Obama is weak because Congress didn't give him everything he said he wanted in his speech, just the way, supposedly, Congress gave everything to LBJ because he was "strong." Well that same strength got us into a quagmire that nearly destroyed a generation of Americans and did destroy several generations of Vietnamese.

I will agree that there in fact more to this than race, which I attempted to convey via the final paragraph and by invoking my grandmother earlier. Some progressive are also involved in another kind of prejudicial thinking that is just as damaging. Just as the black man or woman is "clearly" someone who will agree with this subset of progressives and their desires and wants and will want "it" done the way they want it done, clearly a woman will think the same way unless she's dumb, bubble-headed, a "Stepford Wife" ... pick your euphemism. Clearly a homosexual will be the same way unless he or she is, again, dumb, self-loathing, in the closet, etc. Clearly a poor person will be. Clearly the disabled will be. Etc. ...

I am criticizing the hypocrisy of the dogma, and I chose to focus on race in this piece because it is one, important, glaring part of the hypocrisy almost universally denied by those who exhibit it. The dogma states, as I've already said, that Democrats best not take "we progressives" for granted. Those who hold the dogma then fail to self-reflect and subsequently reduce the power of their argument. "Progressives" of this type would do well not take these groups upon whom they project a belief system for granted either. This *killed* progressives and populists in the late 19th century. They denied their own paternalism, their own sexism, and their own hypocrisy, and we all paid for it and have continued to pay for it into the 21st century. (Google "progressivism for whites only" if you want to read more about that.)

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Plantsmantx Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #25
103. Have you noticed...
...how these people hardly ever offer actual defenses of the Obama administration "some" liberals criticize, beyond "Well, he's not a liberal, and you should have known that"? Then, they turn right around and paste up lists of his achievements on implementing liberal policies, LOL.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #12
28. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 04:35 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Deleted message
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suzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #12
43. "Mr. Obama"?
Yeah, not even being willing to say "President Obama" surely does indicate a lack of paternalistic or racialist motives.
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ljm2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #43
75. I missed your reply...
...or I would have responded sooner.

In fact I do call him President Obama in most of my postings, or just Obama, the same way I used President Clinton or just Clinton when he was President. From time to time, though, I'm sure I used the term "Mr. Clinton" without thinking about it. But if you think my attitude is therefore paternalistic, well then, carry on.
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jaxx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
14. They thought they owned him.
Edited on Mon Jan-04-10 07:27 PM by jaxx
When I read that I cried. All of a sudden the constant comparisons of Barack Obama to this one and that one showed that they only wanted to make him into the norm, and ignore the real man. That need to know what he was going to do before it happened, the complaints, the demands.

Thank you so much for writing this and putting some perspective on allowing someone to be themselves.


edit to K&R
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impik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #14
52. Excellent, excellent post.
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
18. Beautiful piece. Thank you. nt
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
19.  Scary black man in White House...run away, run away. Fri Sep 04th 2009, 02:00 PM
Scary black man in White House...run away, run away.
Posted by SoCalDem in General Discussion

Fri Sep 04th 2009, 02:00 PM

The nut-cases are doing now, what they could not manage to do in '08....and they are doing it with the aid & comfort of the same media who shut them down last year.

What a difference a year makes.

They were unsuccessful last year because "their" candidate was un-electable, and the press did not want to waste precious time on a bunch of whiny racists. They did show the most outrageous of the bunch who shouted "Kill him" or "Traitor" at Palin rallies, but the coverage was about "free speech" and little more.

Another reason they were unsuccessful last year, was the fact that Hillary Clinton stayed in the race for such a long time, that many of the most racist of the GOP base were torn between two longstanding "hates", and probably waited too long to gin up much rabble-rousing.

There was a time when they tipped their hand though, by suddenly masking their Clinton-hate, and crossing over to actually vote for her (Texas primaries & beyond).. Does anyone really think they all-of-a-sudden "liked" her? and would vote for her over their party-chosen-hack?.. This was when they realized that a black man just might win this thing.

Given a choice between Hillary and "the black guy", they would choose Hillary.. They already hated her, and had a quiverful of arrows just for her, but would need more time to craft a barrage designed especially for a black man... they had to be careful with this attack, or they would be once again be called out on their racism. Republican racism is best left just under the surface..like a stealthy submarine, cruising unnoticed by the masses.

These are the same people who overlooked every blunder that GW made..that was a daily event, for at least 8 long years.

They were willing to suspend disbelief, as he failed to deliver on almost everything he promised them.

They willingly "gave him" their husbands, daughters, fathers, sons, grandsons, etc. to go off and fight in two wars, one a meaningless war for profiteering contractors and friends-of-Bush, the other a hastily exited, poorly executed one in Afghanistan. They were willing to trade their flesh & blood loved ones, for a few lines of text in a paper and a folded flag.

They cooed and clucked as he vacationed his way through two terms, claiming that he "needed his rest", and wasn't he quite a manly figure...with that cowboy hat & that chainsaw.

They looked the other way as he proffered yearly budgets without money for either war, and as he added bloated, yet unfunded spending legislation onto their back (and onto the backs of their progeny).

The editorialists they claim as their own, gleefully climbed aboard the war-bus, and told them all how important and necessary these two wars were, and how the cost was nothing to worry about now, because "it had to be done".

AND THEN THE BLACK GUY WON!

After the initial shock, and the obligatory pats on their own backs for "electing the first black man to be president" (even though 99% of them did not vote for him), they set out to undermine him, even if it meant destroying their party in the process. The ends justify the means.

They cannot attack his intellect..or his stage presence..or his ability to communicate....but he IS still black.

No matter how hard it is to clean up the messes left by "their guy", or how necessary it is to HAVE the mess cleaned up.....for all of us, they are still willing to do everything they can to undermine him.

The only effective tool left to them is FEAR. They have to make him scary, questionable, controversial.

Media is only too happy to comply. they were on their best-behavior last year, because they too, were worried about just how to cover the first black man running for the highest office in the country. After 8 long years of bumbling, stumbling, & stammering, they were happy to finally have a literate, composed and intellectual to cover, and they went all in. But that was then, and this is now.

They could not attack Barack, the black man..but as president, they are unfettered now, and anything goes, so they are happy to report on all the nonsensical birthers, deathers, teabaggers, town-brawlers, gun-toters..

Media coverage, to these people is like water to fish.. It's what they need, in order to exist and to prosper.

So now we are where we are.

The black man is going to scare the children..
The black man wants us all to have health care
The black man is trying to clean up the messes left to us by 30 years of neglect
His wife wears SHORTS
His daughter wears a "Peace" shirt


How dare he!
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. That's a good piece n/t
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Silver Gaia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
20. K & R - Thank you for posting this. n/t
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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
24. K & R, especially

the next to last paragraph. :thumbsup:
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 01:31 AM
Response to Original message
26. Thrilled to be your 26th rec. Thank you for using Frederick Douglass' quotes and his life
Edited on Tue Jan-05-10 01:36 AM by Number23
to explain who HE was and not in some cynical BS way or to provide yourself a "non-racist" cover. When the words of MLK are no longer co-opted by those who have no respect or understanding of the man, his culture, his community, his religion, and the region of America in which he called home, that too will be a marvelous day.

Edit: There is particular truth in this part: "He is a left-leaning centrist and always has been. He promised to include progressives as a part of the process, which he has done. He also promised to include conservatives as a part of the process, and he has done that also."

Thanks for this.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 04:26 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Deleted message
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. What a compelling response
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 04:44 AM
Response to Original message
31. Excellent post
Thank you RoyGBiv
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 05:34 AM
Response to Original message
34. Roy, this is one of the best essays I have ever read at DU. KnRnB.
Edited on Tue Jan-05-10 05:45 AM by Hekate
I mean that -- I'm almost in awe that you took the time and profound thought to put this together the way you did. I learned something from following your thoughts.

Plus I love your grandma. :D That's a lady I wish I could have known.

Hekate

edited to add Kick Rec Bookmark
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katkat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 06:38 AM
Response to Original message
35. this makes no sense at all
What we have in office is a liar, irrespective of the color of his skin. No chants of purist! or racist! will silence those of us who point that out.

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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 06:49 AM
Response to Original message
36. Translation, if you think he's representing corporations and the top 1%
Edited on Tue Jan-05-10 06:57 AM by cornermouse
instead of John and Jane Q. Public and you think his policies are flawed and deeply conservative it isn't because his policies are flawed and deeply conservative, its because you're a racist or you think you own him or one of the other bully tactics that have been used on people from the early days of the primaries. And if his legislation destroys or eliminates directly or indirectly, long held democratic principles and party planks? Well, they were passe'. Give up your principles, jump under the Obama bus and celebrate the fact that you're being told that he's a progressive/left-leaning centrist as he continues to ignore and/or eliminate liberal concepts, values and programs.

I give this an unrec. People are mad at the mostly white male Congress that's been going along with this too.
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Kermitt Gribble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
37. Unrec. Disagreements with policy do not equal racism.
And I have some news for you - everyone that voted for him does 'own' him. Just like we 'own' every member of congress. They work for us - they are public servants. The job description of these representatives doesn't specify working toward their personal agenda, it specifies working for their constituency. At the end of their elected term, if a representative is perceived to not have represented a particular faction of their constituency, that faction is obligated by principles of democracy to withhold their votes for that representative.
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
38. Nice essay, but to me Obama is just another Democratic politician.
I have yet to vote for anyone due to their race or gender. There are plenty of women I would never vote for and that is as it should be.

I can understand the AA community feeling great pride in Obama, but I have never found his speeches that inspiring nor did they move me to support him during the primaries. To me there were more about platitudes (hope, change, etc.) than actual substance. I thought that he was a bright, charming, charismatic politician, but not experienced enough nor ready to be president at this point in time. I think that he talked a good game, but by looking at his performance in both senates, I had doubts that he had the toughness to do the job in this very trying times.

So yeah, I understand the historical significance of his election, but his skin color is irrelevant to me as far as evaluating his job performance. In other words, he should be judged the same as if he were just another white guy doing the job. He should not get a pass just because of his race, and neither should a woman if she had been in the same position.

:shrug:
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RFKHumphreyObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
40. Oh wow! I can't believe you actually posted this in GD
You've got some real courage! I read this in the original forum that it was posted and I thought it was one of the most accurate and compelling essays I've read in perhaps in my lifetime. Well done:thumbsup:
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #40
64. I got new clothes for Christmas ...

They're supposed to be flame retardant, so I thought I'd try them out. :)

Thank you for you comments.
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
41. Unrec. I object to your premise, especially your characterization of progressive critics as racist.
Who imagine they "own" the man they elected president.

(Of course, in a sense all Americans may be said to "own" the president, in the sense that he is our ELECTED echief executive and subject to accountability to the public, but that point has already been made)

What really stands out as objectionable, however, is your dishonest and poorly argued attempt to link progressive critics to the mentality of white "slave owners."

This is both deeply offensive and unsupported by any evidence.

And, as you may not have noticed, by presenting such an unfounded, blanket characterization of a diverse group, are as guilty of labeling individuals with "collectivist {sic]* opinions, beliefs, and needs" as the people you pretend to describe.

*a final point, re this phrase, is that also do not seem to know what "collectivist" means.


Thesaurus:

Noun 1. collectivist - a person who belongs to the political left
left-winger, leftist
pinko, pink - a person with mildly leftist political views
socialist - a political advocate of socialism

Adj. 1. collectivist - subscribing to the socialistic doctrine of ownership by the people collectively
collectivistic, state-controlled, collectivised, collectivized
socialist, socialistic - advocating or following the socialist principles; "socialistic government"


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/collectivist

A truly terrible OP.
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AspenRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
45. Kick, rec, bookmarked
Thank you.
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #45
58. So you agree that liberal critics are like white "Slave owners"?
Edited on Tue Jan-05-10 12:44 PM by freddie mertz
I found that part of it rather outrageous.
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AspenRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #45
70. I can't respond to Ignored
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #70
91. Thanks for sharing.
I wonder what Ted Kennedy would think of this line:

"They must also stop looking the black man in the nasal bridge and assuming, because of his skin tone and experiences, that he is naturally an ardent ally who will do their bidding."

Sounds like Clarence Thomas, back in the day, when he was accusing Kennedy and others of a "high tech lynching."
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. Dupe nt.
Edited on Wed Jan-06-10 04:07 PM by freddie mertz
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
46. Great. Now we're the looney, irrelevant, fucking stupid, teabagger, racist left
Sorry. I didn't appreciate Clinton's conservative, working class destroying policies and I don't support Obama in similar policies. Seems just another hit on those who dare to disagree with the President.

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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. I'm surprised so many are comfortable in inferring progressives are racists,
what a sorry state of affairs!
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. It is a sorry state of affairs
I'm perceiving a concerted push to purge the liberal 'left' from the party. It's been whacky to me wondering why the party would so willingly drive out these numbers of reliable Democratic voters. Lately, I'm starting to think more Republicans in the House and Senate is their goal. Would make it easier to push the more conservative DLC agenda with the cover of 'needing to work with the Republicans.' I don't see any other sane rationale for the liberal bashing that is going on, lately.
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #46
50. The OP calls liberals racists, and yet it stands and is rec'd and praised.
I am baffled by it.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #50
59. If it's any consolation, most people probably didn't read far enough to get that.
They saw the Unfroze Caveman Lawyer routine, saw Frederick Douglas, scrolled to the bottom and hit rec. :eyes:
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #50
65. The OP did not call liberals racists. n/t
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. but infers a sort of a closet racism,
such that progressives would be nicer if Obama was white.
You are parsing words, your own words.
I think you need to take responsibility for your OP.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. Only the reader can infer ...

More could be said about that, but I'll leave it alone.

The OP implies a sort of paternalism, which is something different from racism. It also accuses certain individuals of displaying prejudice, which is also different from racism.

I used words in that piece with deliberate intent, so you're damn right I'm parsing them. I'm parsing them the way they are intended, using standard definitions. The problem that many people have in interpreting their own behavior is that they see no difference between prejudicial treatment and racism and therefore, since they proclaim themselves not to be racist, assume they cannot be prejudiced.

Paternalism is more difficult. It is indeed a kind of racism. Horace Greeley and William Lloyd Garrison were both paternalists, yet people admire them, which is why I mentioned them. So, what to make of that?

This piece was about making people think. You may choose to be insulted if you so desire, but that's on you, not me. I cannot make you feel a certain way about your own behavior or thoughts. If you are satisfied that your own criticisms of Obama fall within an intellectually honest framework, that you have projected none of your own desires onto him leaving you believing he, personally, promised you something, and if you are certain you don't believe that you know better simply because of who you are, then this piece was not directed at you.

But there are people who believe one or all of those things, and they post here daily. Few of them will ever be honest with themselves about it.


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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. I do appreciate that you have taken the time to carefully explain your thoughts
That is what we need more of here. Still, whether you call it paternalism or prejudice, you are still saying that Obama's race influences the way (many?) progressives express their feelings about his presidency. I just don't see that.
I'm sure you remember the amount of outrage so many felt over Bush policies. I think most progressives feel anger and disappointment over policies regardless of party, gender or race. That is my experience.


Can progressives exhibit paternalism or prejudice? Sure, but no more than any other segment of the population, and probably less.
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #65
77. You suggest that criticism is motivated by an unconscious racism.
Which you equate with the attitude of white slave owners to slaves.

I did read the piece, you see.

And the message, despite the long build-up, is pretty clear by the end.

"Some (presumably a substantial number, otherwise why bother?) white progressive critics of Obama's policies in office are motivated by an unconscious, paternalistic attitude toward him as a black man, an attitude not dissimilar to some white slave owners' paternalistic attitudes toward their slaves."

That is it in a nutshell, right?



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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #77
78. No

I chose my words carefully. Your false quote does not accurately reflect my words within the context you've provided.

Since you've added nothing new, I'll simply refer to what I've already said on this topic:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7393861&mesg_id=7399797

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7393861&mesg_id=7403735





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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. Here from the first of your own links:
Edited on Wed Jan-06-10 12:19 PM by freddie mertz
"The OP implies a sort of paternalism, which is something different from racism. It also accuses certain individuals of displaying prejudice, which is also different from racism.

...and later on... "Paternalism is more difficult. It is indeed a kind of racism."

So there we have it, "paternalism is a kind if racism" and the "OP implies a kind of paternalism."

You are dodging here, but not very artfully.

Your accusation of racism stands.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. No ...

Your previous message provided a different context and rewords things in a manner with which I do not agree given that context.

The context of my responses more completely explains things. As should be clear, I do not speak in sound-bites.

However, if you have a need to see things in such simplistic terms, feel free do to so.

What you're trying to do is bait me, and I'm not going to bite.
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #83
85. I am calling you out for what I consider to be blanket statements, intended to discredit...
The people here who actually feel entitled and even obliged to criticize the administration when they find their policies and/or leadership strategies misguided or disappointing.

Your strategy, as I see it, was to play the "race card" and suggest that many of these critics have been motivated by what you yourself characterize as racial prejudice.

And what is your evidence for this?

None at all.





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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #85
86. Rhetorically ...
Edited on Wed Jan-06-10 03:18 PM by RoyGBiv
What you're trying to do is get me to agree to a narrow interpretation of my remarks, all boiled down to a single sentence, framed within a context of your own devising that ignores entirely the substance of my remarks, and then knock down that sentence, thus shifting the conversation such that as a dissenter you would not need to address that substance.

There's a word for this.

In any case, I went against my own rule for this thread in responding to you, so I'll leave this alone now. I just didn't want you to feel too ignored.

Have a nice day.

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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. You haven't got an answer, do you? nt.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. You want to talk?

Tell me your thoughts on Horace Greeley.

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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. Greeley is an interesting historical figure.
But you are changing the subject, which once again suggests you are not really able to refute my reading of your piece.

Which makes sense, since I understood you completely, despite the misuse of "collectivist."
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #90
96. Harace Greeley is part of the subject ...

You have avoided it yourself and so I was attempting to see if you would be willing to have a substantive discussion.

I guess not.






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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. Not the most exciting part.
You did employ a lot of historical dressing-up in there, though, that I will admit.

I tend to be more interested in your conclusions.

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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #77
98. That's not my understanding of the essay.
:shrug:

The essay pointed to how harmful dogmatic assumptions can be.
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followthemoney Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
48. Race has nothing to do with my appraisal of Obama
The writer suggests that we must accept poor performance from Obama because of the pressures of racism under which he performs.

Should we be happy to have a Black president and recognize the writer's grandmother's warning that a black man would be assassinated before taking the oath of office and therefore he should not attempt to upset the white man's expectation of privilege for fear of his life? If fear for his personal safety does influence his decision process, perhaps he used poor judgment in pursuing the presidency in the first place.

The perpetuation of racist discrimination for the broad majority of Black people and the continued exploitation of all working people is not a fair trade off for having a Black president.

My expectations of a president, for good or bad, are not tempered by the color of his skin. To be otherwise would be racist.
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impik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
51. There's a mountain of racism on the Left. Many "progressives" wouldn't
treat a white president like shit - The way they treat Obama. They can denied it all they want, but truth has the tendency to come out eventually.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. I was completely opposed to Hillary Clinton due to her corporate friendly policies
Edited on Tue Jan-05-10 12:23 PM by laughingliberal
and she is not black. I also remember the most anger I ever directed at a Democratic president was directed at LBJ over Viet Nam. For God's sake, we took to the streets and ran him out of office. Remember, "Hey, hey LBJ! How many kids did you kill today?" Nah, the left would never treat a white president like shit.

Sorry, we have a history of rising up against presidents of our own party when they throw down with the RW MIC.

edited spelling in headline
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. LBJ is a perfect example
it's about policy.
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. Right. And there was the primary in 1980, TK vs. JC.
Edited on Tue Jan-05-10 12:45 PM by freddie mertz
The accusation of racism across the broad spectrum of Obama criticism is baseless and divisive.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. The push to purge the left out of the party is relentless, lately nt
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. So it seems. I wonder if those rec-ing this trash even got that far.
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. Back it up.
Edited on Tue Jan-05-10 12:43 PM by freddie mertz
Not just one or two stray anomalies other.

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ljm2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #51
61. Hogwash...
...plenty of us were furious with Bill Clinton over his NAFTA policies, not to mention his willingness to gut welfare. As there was no DU around at the time, nor a lot of blogs, lefty or otherwise, perhaps our disdain was less visible. Although I seem to remember reading plenty of criticism of President Clinton from the left.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
63. "Hey, hey, LBJ! How many kids did you kill today?"
Sorry, this OP is BS. The left is no more thinking they own this president than we have thought we owned past Democratic presidents. Not one of them got there without our votes or our boots on the ground and you're damned right we expect to see support for the policies we favor. Race has nothing to do with it. My headline on this post is a phrase Johnson probably heard in his sleep before it was over. I know I did. I was out somewhere every weekend of my life screaming that after his escalation of Viet Nam. As another poster mentioned upthread, we primaried Carter in 1980. Barack Obama has not begun to see the kind of vitriol the left heaps on Democratic presidents who defect from liberal values.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
74. K & R nt
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
79. I'll admit right from the beginning, that I only made it about a third of the way through your
post, but are you saying we're mad because the black guy isn't doing our bidding? I, for one, am angry that the President, who is reminding me more and more of Bill Clinton (a white guy) is not doing what I was led to believe he would. He is a magnificent orator (notice I didn't say black orator) and I just wish his actions and his rhetoric matched better. Calling us racists for expecting him to do what he said he would do isn't going to change a thing and I think it's a bit of a straw man argument.
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Plantsmantx Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #79
82. Well...first of all, I grew up in the 60's-70's,
Edited on Wed Jan-06-10 02:20 PM by Plantsmantx
...and I have no idea what turn of phrase this person is alluding to.

Aside from that, this person claims that these liberals want Obama to be docile and submissive, when just the opposite is true. If anything, they're mad because they perceive him as too hesitant. And, if you look back at his concurrence on warrantless wiretapping (it wasn't a cave), the people this poster is referring to concluded that he was a centrist back then, so it's not as if they were surprised by what they saw later on.

This person is presumably black, but he/she is doing the same thing Giordano, BooMan, and some other have done- demagogue white liberals who strongly disagree with some of Obama's policies by playing the "racist card" in the hope that it will make them shut up. It's revealing to note that although almost all liberals say that the health insurance reform bill could be improved, the proprietors of the "good liberals" blogs haven't written much about it lately- much less, in fact, than the "bad liberal" bloggers have. To the extent that they have said much about it recently, it's mostly been pushback and and gainsaying against the "bad liberal" bloggers who have been writing pretty positive, detailed posts on what needs to be improved, and how it needs to be improved....again, something that almost all liberals supposedly agree on. It just reveals that the "good liberal" bloggers don't really give a shit, by and large. They're almost completely caught up in a frenzy of playing their own version of the sport that rightists like to indulge in against all of us- "pissing off the liberals".
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #82
94. well said
at least this "bad liberal" thinks so.
Good call, welcome!
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #82
100. Oh really ...
I salute you.

You really think you can offer the line, "This person is presumably black ..." in reference to my OP and then proceed to claim an understanding of what other bloggers are saying as a whole?

Really?

That fragment of a sentence either calls into question reading comprehension skills or indicates a lack of effort by failing actually to read that which is being criticized. Kindly assuming the latter, doesn't it say something else, something, oh, perhaps, maybe, prejudicial? Even absent the fact I clearly stated that I am a white male, what, specifically, in my OP would lead one to believe that I am black or of any particular race? Only black people could possibly think the way I do? Only black people would be able to quote Frederick Douglass or relate so many details of his life? Only black people can focus on the paternalism and prejudice displayed by some people? Which? Or is it something else? If so, what?

Beyond all this mess, this is one thing I seriously question about people who criticize or applaud various things they claim to have read or understand. Far too often, their very own words betray a complete lack of understanding by offering a line such as this that is directly addressed in the negative (and is not a matter of opinion) in the piece upon which they are commenting.

Congratulations, you have your Emily Litella moment at (presumably) Post #1.

I am truly stunned.

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Plantsmantx Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. Yes, I said "presumably black"
Edited on Wed Jan-06-10 08:40 PM by Plantsmantx
...you didn't make it absolutely clear that the pasted was from you, and not your friend. Funny that you chose to play that "gotcha", and not actually address anything else I said. I started to type "It's beside the point", but it's not, actually. Ok, so you're white and doing the same thing as Giordano, BooMan, and some others. That makes it even worse, because like them, you're using faked concern for blacks to smear these people as racists (and yes, you're doing that) in order to get what you want. Yes, those "bad" liberals have criticized Obama, sometimes pretty harshly, but that criticism has been remarkable in how much it hasn't focused on Obama's race, and in how little they've dishonestly held up the example of blacks in general to demagogue the issue...unlike you. Many of you "good" liberals have dishonestly (and laughably) claimed that not focusing on Obama's race when criticizing him proves their racism. How low can you go? I look at them, and I see people criticizing policy- sometimes angrily, but still criticizing policy. I look at people like you, and you are projecting at least as much as any teabagger or PUMA....claiming that they're being too emotional when you are being even more emotional; claiming that they're taunting when your side is doing the bulk of that; baselessly accusing them of being racists when you are trying to use blacks to get what YOU want, and being offensively paternalistic in the process. Oh, yeah- accusing them of being PUMAs when you know they aren't. That's pretty recent history. We know who the PUMAs were and are. They separated themselves out pretty early on.

Yes, really.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #101
102. Even worse?
Edited on Wed Jan-06-10 08:45 PM by RoyGBiv
What I wrote is even worse because I'm white?

You do know you failed utterly to address the question. Even if you did not understand that I am white, what was it about the OP that made you "presume" I was black?

You're right. I'm not addressing anything else you say because it's incoherent nonsense.





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Plantsmantx Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #102
104. ...you didn't make it absolutely clear that the pasted was from you, and not your friend.
That's me addressing the question, and of course you don't want to address anything I've said, because you've been called out on your lies, dishonesty, projection, and YOUR racist paternalism. Those people you're smearing care about policy. On the other hand, Obama's race looms much, much larger for you. That's more than obvious. Even if you are being sincere, Black America doesn't need any paternalistic white Daddies.
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angee_is_mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
81. Dayummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!
Preach brother, preach!!!!!!
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
87. Wish I'd seen this in time to K&R.
Edited on Wed Jan-06-10 03:28 PM by redqueen
The manner of these criticisms, and the tone they take, however, leave questions to be answered, and both those questions and the potential answers do not paint a benevolent picture of his detractors. In the end, this reduces the power of the argument progressives make and provides one more nail in the coffin of irrelevance they have been building to bury their political ambitions since the turn of the century, once removed.


Fuckin A.


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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
93. A question/challenge to the OP.
Explain to me how this is not an accusation of racism:

"They must also stop looking the black man in the nasal bridge and assuming, because of his skin tone and experiences, that he is naturally an ardent ally who will do their bidding."

Sounds like Clarence Thomas, back in the day, when he was accusing Ted Kennedy and others of a "high tech lynching."
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Plantsmantx Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #93
105. Of course it's an accusation of racism
Edited on Wed Jan-06-10 09:09 PM by Plantsmantx
and it's one that doesn't have anything to do with concern for actual black people.
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #105
106. And I note that the OP. after a few dodges, has stopped answering the charge...
Especially in this case, where the meaning of the line cannot be refuted.
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DeeOwl Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
95. He's black...
He is and that is nice, but my life and lives of those around me haven't changed any, or gotten any better since he got elected. We still live in complete poverty, have no health insurance (myself included), and none of us get any assistance from the government, the big-mouth church types, or representatives of either/any political party.


So, yeah, he's black and that's real nice, and not to sound selfish and unconcerned, but as somebody who is living the heart of America, what has he done for us, the poor, lately?
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
99. Great post
Somebody posted a cartoon about black man getting crummy job - there is that tone of "I elected him to do such and such" on here sometimes.
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #99
107. Good summary of the OP's accusation of racism against progressive critics.
Edited on Thu Jan-07-10 08:00 AM by freddie mertz
What nonsense.
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