Haitian Economy is the Blueprint for Future USA

[Octafish]

Here's what awaits We the People of the United States:

In Haiti, one percent of the population own 99-percent of the property.

We're not there yet, but close enough to see where things are going.

In 2003, then-Haitian president Jean-Bertrand Aristide planned to tax the elite on their wealth. So, he got bounced by Power -- a coup backed by "Baby Doc" Bush.

Raising taxes. Hah! Like if that could ever happen here.

BTW: The first time Aristide got bounced by Power, he was working to deliver political and economic justice, including getting Haiti's generals out of narcotrafficking business. No wonder Poppy Doc Bush, Jesse Helms and the rest of the ultraright did all they could to help the Haitian generals and the elite they serve. They've devoted their professional careers to bringing the same economic and social conditions to the United States.

[Octafish]

1. Hey, Unrecommenders! Why don't you give your reasons for disagreeing?

Chicken?

[TheWatcher]

26. In a word. Yes.

They cannot handle the Truth. The cannot handle what is obviously going on in front of them.

And they are pissed off at you for daring to shit on the fantasy world they live in.

A very dark, cowardly mental illness has this nation in it's grip.

Our desperation to live in a lie will be our undoing long before the Oligarchs are.

In fact, it is that desperation to live in a lie that will enable them to win.

Mark my words.

[cliffordu]

36. GO man the barricades, tough guy.

I wanna see what an actual activist and fully aware human being can do.

I'd be you can't even give up your car, to stop paying the war tax on gasoline.

[dmallind]

44. No - because it's as pointless as disagreeing with a flat earther

The US has far more national capital based on commodities. We have a far more educated population that can convert raw materials much more easily into value added goods. We have a much better and more secure infrastructure to transport those goods, and a much more robust governmental framework to make these things profitable. It's so fucking easy that a five year old can see the difference, and the exact equivalent of having to "give your reasons for disagreeing" that the tooth fairy exists.

[SandWalker1984]

50. You can't raise crops, convert raw materials or fund wars forever on DEBT

The US is thisclose to having an economic collapse if China decides to quit buying our debt to prop up our worthless Federal Reserve notes we call money. Why do you think the Federal Reserve is fighting so hard to prevent a first ever audit of their books? What are they hiding from us?

If our money collapses, how long do you think the system will keep running? The trucks delivering food, gas?

Obviously you've never seen what happens to supply and demand after a hurricane, but living in Florida, I have. Banks and businesses are closed. Electricity is off. You can't get gas and your ATM & credit cards don't work. Most people start running out of food and water in 3 days. Looting begins.

Now imagine that scenario expanded across the entire United States.

If we do not somehow take back control of government's excessive spending on illegal wars without end, of bailing out Wall Street and business "too big to fail," then yes, we can have our own "economic" earthquake.

[dmallind]

62. And the US isn't even in the top 25% in debt load

And China owns less than a third of our debt by the way. But even if it were all true, what about our macroeconomic flow of monety will stop crops growing?

How long will the trucks keep running? For as long as the use of our strategic petroleum reserves and our military power can keep gas avilable.

[dmallind]

70. Correction - Foreigners own less than 1/3 of our debt. China owns

[RaleighNCDUer]

85. You think the dust bowl can't happen again?

Suppose our endless middle-east wars end with the Saudi oil fields getting nuked - how long will our trucks keep running then?

Remember how shocked everyone was when the Soviet Union collapsed? One day, the facade was strong as ever and we were toe-to-toe with the damn commies, and the next day there WEREN'T any commies. Collapse is, by definition, sudden. And usually unexpected. And ALWAYS chaotic.

So we have 18 months of oil in the strategic reserve - it won't mean a thing unless we can get that oil reserve to the nation, and that is not its purpose. Its purpose is to keep the MILITARY running. And believe you me, if we experience a societal collapse, the military WILL keep running, just as the military was about the only functioning part of the Russian government six months after the collapse. The military has the chain of command, it has the manpower, and it has the guns to keep people from arguing about who is in charge. And the person in charge will be the one who can pay the military - a representative of that 1%.

BTW, the military has gamed out every possible scenario. Do you think they have not gamed out a collapse of civil society in the US?

[Octafish]

72. Trillions for Wall Street.

How much trickled down to your neck of the woods -- besides the I.O.U.s on worthless derivatives, etc.?

[dmallind]

78. And this means we will become poverty-stricken subsistence farmers and peddlers how?

[Octafish]

82. The U.S. Government serves the interest of the monied elite.

It's been that way since LBJ's day.

The nation's fiscal policies benefit the corporations and those who own them with fat contracts for warmongering and tax breaks for cronies. The rich also benefit through privatization of public property. Offshore tax havens benefit the monied elite, while social security and workman's compensation taxes most impact working class Americans.

Please tell me:

Whatever happened to the New Deal for the 21st Century to stimulate the economy and create jobs that was discussed in 2008?
Where's the Manhattan Project to wean the nation from Big Oil?
Where did the effort to save the environment disappear to?
Where's the universal health coverage that was promised?
Where's the money for improving public education?
Where's the investment for America's cities?

Any clue? Here's the answer: There's no money for any of that. There IS plenty of money for Wall Street and War Inc., though.

And that's the idea, isn't it? The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Government officials do that so when they leave government they can work for those who benefitted from their actions.

[dmallind]

84. Again - this makes us Haiti how? BTW US =44 GINI rank. Haiti = 8 NT

[Octafish]

86. In Haiti, the top 1-percent own 99-percent. In USA, top 1-percent owns about 50-percent.

The trend is toward more concentration of wealth at the top in the United States.

Who knows how long it will be before the top 1-percent own 99-percent of the wealth in the United States?

[Jackpine Radical]

108. LBJ Baloney.

Ever since Washington's day. Remember Alexander Hamilton?

[Octafish]

109. Sorry. That's what I meant and should have said. Sorry.

I remember LBJ and I have personally witnessed the story as an interested citizen since his time.

I also remember Vietnam and how Kellog Brown & Root made money for Texas. I also remember my friends' brothers coming back dead.

In many ways, just like today. Same few players making big money off War Inc.

[Jackpine Radical]

112. Octa, I know you, of all people, know. You're one of the most knowledgeable people,

and certainly one of the greatest original researchers, that we have on the Progressive side.

[Autonomy]

100. You're correct

Our economy is based primarily on the ability of our people to create value. It's not based on some paranoid vision of 'control' by oligarchical oppressors. There is no control to that degree. "They" can make it far less comfortable for us, however, and can (and do) steal the fruits of our efforts and creativity. But, no, they could not turn us into Haiti, at least without destroying our best people first.

[whistler162]

68. Why did you threadjack this thread?

[TransitJohn]

2. Kick and rec.

I love the posts that highlight poverty and its causes. Thanks. :hi:

[Octafish]

7. What Ted Rall said...

Thanks, TransitJohn! Lookit what DUer Mari333 found:

The Haitian Earthquake: Made in U.S.A.

By Ted Rall

EXCERPT...

The story begins in 1910, when a U.S. State Department-National City Bank of New York (now called Citibank) consortium bought the Banque National d'Haïti—Haiti's only commercial bank and its national treasury—in effect transferring Haiti's debts to the Americans. Five years later, President Woodrow Wilson ordered troops to occupy the country in order to keep tabs on "our" investment.

From 1915 to 1934, the U.S. Marines imposed harsh military occupation, murdered Haitians patriots and diverted 40 percent of Haiti's gross domestic product to U.S. bankers. Haitians were banned from government jobs. Ambitious Haitians were shunted into the puppet military, setting the stage for a half-century of U.S.-backed military dictatorship.

The U.S. kept control of Haiti's finances until 1947.

Still—why should Haitians complain? Sure, we stole 40 percent of Haiti's national wealth for 32 years. But we let them keep 60 percent.

Whiners.

Despite having been bled dry by American bankers and generals, civil disorder prevailed until 1957, when the CIA installed President-for-Life François "Papa Doc" Duvalier. Duvalier's brutal Tonton Macoutes paramilitary goon squads murdered at least 30,000 Haitians and drove educated people to flee into exile. But think of the cup as half-full: fewer people in the population means fewer people competing for the same jobs!

CONTINUED...

http://www.rall.com/rants.html

Well, I'm worse than broke... I owe Citibank, Big Time.

[bobbolink]

43. Then you would love this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7467604

Quite the compassion outlined there....

[malaise]

3. Probably chicken hawks to boot

Haiti is a poster child for Grover Norquist's role of government. I doubt if the media hacks understand their own contradictions as they appear ever so shocked that a government response is missing in Haiti. They need to know that this is Grover's vision for America.

[upi402]

4. Media hacks guide us closer to this daily

and laugh all the way to the bank. Traitors!

[Octafish]

10. ''Drown the Government in a bathtub and the Greatest Generation, too'' Grover Norquist?

Norquist said he can't wait for the Greatest Generation to die off so there are fewer Democrats.

While I can respect those who disagree with me, I will never stand traitors and ingrates.

[inna]

5. KR+7

Thank you so much for posting this!

[Octafish]

18. You are welcome, inna. Thank you! Hey, didya read 'The Origins of the Overclass' by Steve Kangas?

Here's excellent reporting from one late, great researcher:

The Origins of the Overclass

By Steve Kangas

EXCERPT...

During the 40s and 50s, most of the public was unaware of what the CIA was doing. Those who knew thought they were fighting the good fight against communism, like James Bond. However, they could not keep their actions secret forever, and by the 60s and 70s, Americans began learning about the agency’s crimes and atrocities. (3) It turns out the CIA has:

Corrupted democratic elections in Greece, Italy and dozens of other nations;

Been involved to varying degrees in at least 35 assassination plots against foreign heads of state or prominent political leaders. Successful assassinations include democratically elected leaders like Salvador Allende (Chile) and Patrice Lumumba (Belgian Congo); also CIA-created dictators like Rafael Trujillo (Dominican Republic) and Ngo Dinh Diem (South Vietnam); and popular political leaders like Che Guevara. Unsuccessful attempts range from Fidel Castro to Charles De Gaulle.

Helped launch military coups that toppled democratic governments, replacing them with brutal dictatorships or juntas. The list of overthrown democratic leaders includes Mossadegh (Iran, 1953), Arbenz (Guatemala, 1954), Velasco and Arosemena (Ecuador, 1961, 1963), Bosch (Dominican Republic, 1963), Goulart (Brazil, 1964), Sukarno (Indonesia, 1965), Papandreou (Greece, 1965-67), Allende (Chile, 1973), and dozens of others.

Undermined the governments of Australia, Guyana, Cambodia, Jamaica and more;

Supported murderous dictators like General Pinochet (Chile), the Shah of Iran, Ferdinand Marcos (Phillipines), "Papa Doc" and "Baby Doc" Duvalier (Haiti), General Noriega (Panama), Mobutu Sese Seko (Ziare), the "reign of the colonels" (Greece), and more;

Created, trained and supported death squads and secret police forces that tortured and murdered hundreds of thousands of civilians, leftists and political opponents, in Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Haiti, Bolivia, Cuba, Mexico, Uruguay, Brazil, Chile, Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, Iran, Turkey, Angola and others;

Helped run the "School of the Americas" at Fort Benning, Georgia, which trains Latin American military officers how to overthrow democratic governments. Subjects include the use of torture, interrogation and murder;

Used Michigan State "professors" to train Diem’s secret police in torture;

Conducted economic sabotage, including ruining crops, disrupting industry, sinking ships and creating food shortages;

Paved the way for the massacre of 200,000 in East Timor, 500,000 in Indonesia and one to two million in Cambodia;

Launched secret or illegal military actions or wars in Nicaragua, Angola, Cuba, Laos and Indochina;

Planted false stories in the local media;

Framed political opponents for crimes, atrocities, political statements and embarrassments that they did not commit;

Spied on thousands of American citizens, in defiance of Congressional law;

Smuggled Nazi war criminals and weapon scientists into the U.S., unpunished, for their use in the Cold War;

Created organizations like the World Anti-Communist League, which became filled with ex-Nazis, Nazi sympathizers, Italian terrorists, Japanese fascists, racist Afrikaaners, Latin American death squad leaders, CIA agents and other extreme right-wing militants;

Conducted Operation MK-ULTRA, a mind-control experiment that gave LSD and other drugs to Americans against their will or without their knowledge, causing some to commit suicide;

Penetrated and disrupted student antiwar organizations;

Kept friendly and extensive working relations with the Mafia;

Actively traded in drugs around the world since the 1950s to fund its operations. The Contra/crack scandal is only the tip of the iceberg –- other notorious examples include Southeast Asia’s Golden Triangle and Noreiga’s Panama.

Had their fingerprints all over the assassinations of John F. Kennedy, Robert F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Jr., and Malcom X. Even if the CIA is not responsible for these killings, the sheer amount of CIA involvement in these cases demands answers;

And then routinely lied to Congress about all of the above.
The Association for Responsible Dissent estimates that by 1987, 6 million people had died as a result of CIA covert operations. (4) Former State Department official William Blum correctly calls this an "American Holocaust."

CONTINUED...

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-overclass.html

The article is a must-read for those interested in Capitalism's Invisible Army and its role in, eh, crowd control.

Thank you for caring and understanding, inna. Truly appreciate it.

[cali]

6. I won't unrec but I will say that your post is wildly off the mark.

the U.S. is not anywhere close to being Haiti and won't be in the foreseeable future. Yes, the gap between rich and poor is far too great and we should raise taxes on the wealthy and corporations and close loopholes, but the history and geography of the U.S. make it unlikely that a Haiti type situation will arise- unless climate change so alters the world that every place becomes Haiti.

[Octafish]

24. In USA, top 1-percent owns about half. Here are some numbers and graphs...

Economic Inequality from NewsBatch.com

With the nation engaged in two illegal, immoral and unnecessary wars for control of petroleum; a planetary ecosystem at the point of exhaustion, if not collapse; globalization and economic privation from Beijing to Walmart; a national Treasury looted by warmongers and tax cheats; and not much leadership out of Washington on any of these problems gives me little hope.

The trend is getting worse: Money is concentrating in fewer and fewer hands.

Still, I hope you are correct, cali. I also appreciate your perspective.

[truedelphi]

56. Are you aware that the only part of the economy that is in recovery is Wall Street and

Its people? And that all of the same forces that brought the Wall Street end of the economy to the brink of collapse remain in place? Currently there are no regulations that might prevent this from happening one more time.

Except that when it collapses next time, there won't be any twelve trillion plus and counting monies to go from Main Street to Wall Street?

I know if you read the header to the OP in a hurry you may think your reasoning stands up, but what the entire article is saying is that we are on our way there.

And we are.

[HughBeaumont]

65. Which is why hiring needs to start picking up and FAST.

There will be no bailouts this time around, and without gainfully employed people, you have no business. We already have zero job growth this decade; normal decade job growth is 15-25%. I would like to think that the next crash won't come as a result of spite for the middle/working/poor classes.

[truedelphi]

113. There's no spite involved. It is just that there is

L:itle in the way of recovery filtering down to Main Street.

And Obama is perfectly aware of all this.In fact, he was slready aware back in October 2008 that the word was out: This "Fix" would only help Wall Street.

So he gave a speech in Wisconsin about how if the monies failed to be extended as loans from Wall Street to Main Street, then he would do some serious regulating.

But his buddies like Geithner have influenced him (Or maybe it is the contributions from Wall Street?)

In any event, there hasn't been regulations - just Geithner getting a free hand to do as he wants, with everyone in power overlooking how Geithner lies to Congress (Impeachable offense. In a rela democracy, Geithner would be stripped of his office and out the door!)

But hey, at least Obama SCOLDS the Wall Street head honchos.

[Greyhound]

8. It'll take a few more generations, but that's basically it. K&R. n/t

[Octafish]

73. Twice-exiled President Aristide told me Haiti's Generals are major players in Drugs Inc.

Guess who their allies are?

A largely ill-educated, uninformed and stoned population speeds up the timetable.

[SidDithers]

9. Bookmarking...

When should we check back to see if this prediction has come true? Care to put a timeline to it?

Sid

[Octafish]

11. You make it sound like I’ve got money on it.

A corporo-fascist dominated political future is not what I want for my children or yours. That’s why I bother to post information about economic and political justice, especially when the news calls for it. Consider who looted the Treasury, the same folks who work to destroy your human, civil and constitutional rights.

Almost forgot: Congratulations on your journal, SidDithers. I look forward to keeping up with all your efforts to prevent a United States of America based on the Haiti model.

[SidDithers]

19. So, no date?...

An open ended prediction has no chance of ever being proved wrong.

Sid

[Telly Savalas]

115. It will happen shortly after the imminent invasion of Iran.

[TheWatcher]

32. You won't have very much to keep up with.

Unless the exciting task of watching him attempt to promote Professional Denial, Apologist Meme's, and Message Discipline as a successful survival mechanism is something that keeps you on the edge of your seat.

I would imagine reading the Cliff Notes of the Twilight Series would be far more informative.

[EFerrari]

14. Is this even a prediction? I know you remember Katrina.

You isolate the leadership, weaking the government and public sector, bring capitalists in to divide the spoils. It's already happening.

[TheWatcher]

27. And Exhibit A Chimes in.

Right on time.

[SidDithers]

29. Thanks for your contribution to this thread...

I at least asked a question of the OP. A question that is still unanswered.

When?

Sid

[Octafish]

66. How's the Amazing Randi doing, SidDithers?

New Blood

Hope this answers any questions:

You got an organization over there, or what?

[SidDithers]

76. What the fuck are you going on about now?...

First, it was nonsense about my inactive journal, and now it's nonsense about another board? I've made 5 posts in almost 3 years at Randi. That's not exactly an active membership. Are you pissed about being banned from there, or something?

You haven't answered the only question I've asked in this thread. I thought it was a simple question for someone with your apparent powers of prognostication. Here, let me ask it again:

When do you think your "future USA" will become the economic equivalent of Haiti?

I'd just like to know if there's any possibility of ever evaluating whether your hypothesis is wrong.

Sid

Edit: should we be examining your membership at the PIgsty, too?

[RaleighNCDUer]

88. Not to break in on a private spat, but there is no predictable timetable -

and you damn well know it. See my post #85 above.

Any number of factors could precipitate a collapse, and the more the wealth is concentrated in the top 5%, the less resiliency we will have to deal with it. If we get a double whammy - a new dust bowl AND a stop on middle-eastern oil - we're fucked. Even today, we couldn't recover from that. Not with our democracy intact.

How about The Big One hitting California. Or the New Madrid fault cranking out another 8.1 quake, as it seems to do about every 300 years. Our economy came to a halt when we lost 5 buildings in New York - what would happen if NY got hit by a Cat. 4 hurricane? Any of those are possible, and NONE can be predicted. Because we can't put a date on them, does that mean we pretend it won't happen?

So, in that light, do YOU have 2 weeks food and water set aside for a disaster? Are you prepared to kill to defend your food and water against the thousands - tens of thousands - who today are so poor they worry about food for tomorrow, and can't even begin to think about storing a disaster cache?

What part of 'collapse' do you not understand?

[SidDithers]

96. The OP was discussing Haiti before the quake...

With a major catastrophe, you're right, all bets are off.

The OP, however, is theorizing that the "Future US" will at some point economically mirror Haiti. The hypothesis is just so much smoke if it can't be tested, and it can't be tested if it's not falsifiable.

And, it's most certainly not falsifiable if it's completely open-ended.

My prediction that, someday, pigs will have wings and fly across the sky, is just as valid as the OP's hypothesis. When will it happen? I don't know, but mark my words, someday it'll be true.

Sid

[RaleighNCDUer]

99. Nonsense. It IS able to to predicted, even if it is open-ended.

Of course, the OP offered it as a warning, a jeremiad, but nonetheless if the trend of privatisation continues, and the trend of concentrating wealth in the hands of a super-rich oligarchy continues, there is no way we would NOT face similar circumstances. We've seen it, again and again, in nation after nation, that where a select few controls the resources and the wealth of a country, the vast majority of the population will always be relegated to absolute poverty.

Haiti may be an extreme example of it but look at Guatamala, and Honduras, and Zaire, and North Korea if you want other examples. That's what Chavez has been fighting against in Venezuela by trying to open up the economy to the people, and not cater just to the elites.

When the correct combination of government, crisis, and undereducated populace mix, it WILL happen.

Right now we have those financial elites continually consolidating their wealth. We have the middle-class disappearing, with a precious few rising and a great many falling out of the middle class. We have schools failing. We have colleges raising tuitions and fees to the point that only the wealthy will be able to attend. We have an emasculated labor movement, and an empowered monied elite. We have government which, no matter the party in power, caters to the wealthy because to get into government you must be wealthy.

I can't at all say 'when' it will happen - only that if we do not change course, it WILL happen. It could be in ten years - it could be in fifty years. I doubt it will take as long as a hundred years. Predicated, of course, on the continuing trend of the last 60 years. The rise of the military industrial complex and the formation of the CIA I consider to be the beginning of the end.

Comparing the OP's hypothesis with pigs flying is a strawman and you know it. There is a wealth of observable evidence about how civil societies collapse, about how concentrated wealth impoverishes a nation, about how an uneducated public does not have the resilience to pull itself out of poverty (though some individuals of course might - a different subject). There is no observable trend toward pigs attaining wings and no history of them having done so in the past.

Here's one - the snow cap on Mt Kilimanjaro is going to melt away completely. When is it going to happen? I don't know. Maybe this summer, maybe next, maybe not for five years. But it WILL happen. It that an 'unfalsifiable' prediction because I can't put an exact date on it? Is it patently false just because there is a possibility that there will be a huge volcano eruption that could cool the globe and break the melting trend? Or is it a perfectly valid prediction that, unless circumstances change, will be borne out at some future date based on observed trends?

Maybe you prefer unverifiable political claims - President Beck would be a disaster for the country. It is unverifiable because there is no way in hell he'll ever be elected. Does that make my statement any less true?

Refusal to see the reality of the situation is exactly what put this country in this situation.

[SidDithers]

104. This is a good post...

I still don't believe that the "Future US" will devolve into a Haiti-like economic morass. IMO, the country is too large, with too much established structure to become oligarchical to the extent that Haiti was, but you've given me reason to at least re-examine my immediate objection to the OP.

Sid

[TheWatcher]

114. Nice save.

I have to at least give you points for finding an eloquent way of admitting you got completely schooled.

So much so you couldn't come up with anything to counter it with.

And kudos to the Poster who handed your rear end to you for having the patience to do so.

As for you re-examining anything, I highly doubt the sincerity of that comment.

You are happy in your cocoon, Sid.

If I were you I'd stay there.

i don't think you could handle enlightenment.

[EFerrari]

12. It's as clear as day. K&R

[Octafish]

67. Wall Street loves us, too.

It's the ownership class. Back in the day, certain people felt themselves entitled to owning other people. Since 1861, that's been un-American.

Still, they do what they can...

[GreenMetalFlake]

13. k/r

[Octafish]

110. Income Inequality Is at an All-Time High -- Worse than even Great Depression Level.

"...while the bottom 99 percent of incomes grew at a solid pace of 2.7 percent per year from 1993-2000, these incomes grew only 1.3 percent per year from 2002-2007. As a result, in the economic expansion of 2002-2007, the top 1 percent captured two thirds of income growth."

Income Inequality Is At An All-Time High: STUDY

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

15. China would be a more sensible guess, I think. -nt

[jotsy]

89. Love that sig line!!!

Good to get in a laugh among all the angst and animosity in the thread, tyvm.

[Octafish]

111. BFEE Luvs Beijing

Olympic Games Show Who’s Best Friends Forever with Authoritarians and Dictators

[Bozita]

16. K&R

[Octafish]

120. The truth about Haiti’s suffering

Our insane foreign policy makes for insane domestic policy:

The truth about Haiti’s suffering

By Finian Cunningham
Jan 15, 2010, 00:20
OnlineJournal.com

EXCERPT...

Haiti’s poverty -- as for other poor countries hit by natural disasters -- leaves its people wide open to the kind of devastation that has befallen them. And make no mistake, Haiti’s poverty is not just bad luck or something inherently faulty about its natural resources and people. The country has been kept underdeveloped by decades of political and economic interference from Washington to ensure that this former slave colony continues to serve as a cheap source of agricultural exports to the US and as a labour sweatshop for American corporations making textiles and other consumer goods.

While Washington spends $1,000 billion on wars allegedly to combat the threat of terrorism, Haiti’s poor -- whose country’s economy is valued at $7 billion -- show us a sobering perspective on what a real threat to life looks like. We live in a physical world where floods, tsunamis, earthquakes happen. These disasters claim multiple more lives than the threats that the US is fixated on and spends multiples more money on. Can you imagine how many lives could have been saved in Haiti’s earthquake if a fraction of the money squandered on futile wars had been directed to economic and social development of that country?

Of course, the moral and sensible logic of that idea does not apply in a world dictated by Washington’s foreign policy. This is because of the imperatives and logic of US-led capitalism, which requires countries like Haiti to be kept in a state of poverty for the sake of corporate profit and which requires the fixation on illusionary threats to cover up its need to control geopolitical resources (mainly energy). This is the true face of the economic system that Washington and its allies impose on the world. And Haiti has pulled the mask off this ugly face.

CONTINUED...

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_5472.shtml

It's easy to see how the powers-that-be work around the world. What's new to many is how, now, they don't fear pulling their scam on the Homeland.

Thank you for knowing what it's all about, Bozita.

[Xenotime]

17. There are some areas that already have this level over poverty.

[fascisthunter]

20. it's the Republicans dream come true

too bad most of them will be part of the other 99%.

[Joe Chi Minh]

21. Wash your mouth out! That's plain nasty. It sounds jist like class war!

[arikara]

22. What You're Not Hearing about Haiti (But Should Be)

It may startle news-hungry Americans to learn that these conditions the American media correctly attributes to magnifying the impact of this tremendous disaster were largely the product of American policies and an American-led development model.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x510204

[branders seine]

34. that's why "model" is such an appropriate word.

[RaleighNCDUer]

91. It was never a development model - it was an exploitation model. nt

[arikara]

23. Recommended

and bookmarked for reference

[leftstreet]

25. K&R

Great links

Thanks for posting!

[me b zola]

28. K&R

[cliffordu]

30. Completely wrong, with a disregard for the facts.

Nice photo of a half clad child, by the way.



WTF is wrong with you?

[EFerrari]

35. Now, there's an argument.

Wtf, cliffordu? They're privatizing everything, including the services that used to be the public sector.

That is Haiti.

[cliffordu]

37. You need to go read a concise history of Haiti.

Yours is a bogus posit, and to trivialize the suffering of the Haitians at the hands of foreign governments by claiming we are just like that here is really disgusting.

They privatized the zero, the nada, the zilch those people had.

You got nothing to complain about.

:eyes:

When the Chinese select the President of the United States of America and the Congress through assassination and killing in the streets come and see me.

[SidDithers]

38. +1...nt

Sid

[EFerrari]

40. I'm sorry but that's factually incorrect.

All of Haiti's public sector has been privatized which is why there are endless NGOs there and no government taking care of the people. Maybe YOU should crack a book and not the Readers' Digest version. Thirty years ago, Haiti supplied its own food. After Clinton "helped" them with those FTAs, they import 80% of their food. Sound familiar?

And, thanks, I don't need you to tell me what I have or don't have. And the next time your $20 helps elect your candidate, get back to me.

[cliffordu]

41. Uh, I'm not talking about the insult that recent President's have

added to the injury that was the history of Haiti for the last two hundred years.

Get a grip.

[EFerrari]

42. Haiti's economy is a blueprint for us. We just don't believe they would do it

to us, too.

[cliffordu]

45. Hokay.

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

46. Bush nearly privatized Social Security in time for the meltdown.

Laugh now. It may be one of a few last chances.

[Zoeisright]

80. Gee, what a reasoned response.

Not.

Laughing about something so serious is really stupid and childish.

Buh-bye.

[cliffordu]

81. c ya

:hurts:

[april]

95. history of Haiti Why is Haiti so Poor

Why is Haiti so Poor?
The question I am asked most frequently is: WHY IS HAITI SO POOR? This is a difficult thing for people to understand, especially for those of us living in a ...
43k - 6 sec @ 56k
www.webster.edu/~corbetre/haiti/misctopic/leftover/whyp...

[RaleighNCDUer]

101. "Page not found" - want to try again? nt

[Octafish]

69. Lighten up, Francis.

The photo is from NPR.

Regarding the USA becoming like Haiti: Just because there's food in the fridge and the house is warm this winter means the natijon isn't undergoing serious change. In the economy, how's globalization working out for you and your family and friends? More jobs than workers, right? How's that universal health insurance coming? Great to know that Social Security is going to keep up with inflation, let alone become a living wage. How about in politics, do the facts American citizens have been held without charge for years and some apparently executed without trial; and two major illegal, immoral and unnecessary wars for control of energy supplies and routes remind you of anything? Right?

[branders seine]

31. because they are ignorant fools

[Edweird]

33. Considering everything, I'd say that's not unreasonable.

[Quantess]

39. Haiti is the the poorest nation in the western hemisphere.

You bring up excellent points, but I'm not ready to believe that the USA will resemble Haiti anytime soon.

I'm sorry, that's just too pessimistic, even for me.

[bulloney]

59. Why does everything have to happen NOW before people see what's happening?

Nobody's saying the U.S. is what Haiti currently is, but the system is in place to make it head in that direction. Look at the increasing skewing of wealth. Look at the systematic privatization of services that are better provided through the public sector.

There are too many people who stick their heads in the sand and say, "Problem? I see no problem." Then the problem gets so imposing, it's too late. Can you say "too big to fail?" For 20 years, I've been speaking on the ramifications on market concentration. Media gerbils and other self-proclaimed know-it-alls dissed my remarks, saying it's just capitalism and capitalism is inherently good.

Now, we constantly read about how big trans-national corporations control our governments via exhorbitant campaign contributions and have established a revolving door system where their employees infiltrate appointed and elected government positions. Conversely, government officials turn around and find cushy jobs with these same corporations and bring with them their contacts and influences in government.

The Wall Street and bank debacles have been documented here.

These are just a few of the signs of what this post is trying to bring to peoples' attention.

[RaleighNCDUer]

97. It's the same mindset that won't believe global warming so long as

any glaciers still exist, and so long as they have to turn the heat on in the winter.

I don't know ANYONE who was not surprised by the abruptness and depth of the collapse of the Soviet Union. Reagan took credit for it, of course, but the signs were there long before he took office, and while he was there the soviets LOOKED stronger than ever, until they suddenly weren't. Even people who predicted the collapse didn't think it would be so sudden and so complete.

I fear that we are where the soviets were 20 years ago.

It's not the fall that scares me - it's the sudden stop when we hit bottom.

[Stinky The Clown]

47. k&r #95

[Douglas Carpenter]

48. kick and recommend

[Overseas]

49. K&R. //nt

[MinM]

51. K&R

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/CIAtimeline.html

1959

Haiti — The U.S. military helps "Papa Doc" Duvalier become dictator of Haiti. He creates his own private police force, the "Tonton Macoutes," who terrorize the population with machetes. They will kill over 100,000 during the Duvalier family reign. The U.S. does not protest their dismal human rights record.

1961

The Bay of Pigs — The CIA sends 1,500 Cuban exiles to invade Castro’s Cuba. But "Operation Mongoose" fails, due to poor planning, security and backing. The planners had imagined that the invasion will spark a popular uprising against Castro -– which never happens. A promised American air strike also never occurs. This is the CIA’s first public setback, causing President Kennedy to fire CIA Director Allen Dulles.

Dominican Republic — The CIA assassinates Rafael Trujillo, a murderous dictator Washington has supported since 1930. Trujillo’s business interests have grown so large (about 60 percent of the economy) that they have begun competing with American business interests.

Ecuador — The CIA-backed military forces the democratically elected President Jose Velasco to resign. Vice President Carlos Arosemana replaces him; the CIA fills the now vacant vice presidency with its own man.

Congo (Zaire) — The CIA assassinates the democratically elected Patrice Lumumba. However, public support for Lumumba’s politics runs so high that the CIA cannot clearly install his opponents in power. Four years of political turmoil follow.

1963

Dominican Republic — The CIA overthrows the democratically elected Juan Bosch in a military coup. The CIA installs a repressive, right-wing junta.

Ecuador — A CIA-backed military coup overthrows President Arosemana, whose independent (not socialist) policies have become unacceptable to Washington. A military junta assumes command, cancels the 1964 elections, and begins abusing human rights...

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7590&hl=Haiti

In October, 1962 De Mohrenschildt became friends with Lee Harvey Oswald in Fort Worth. He suggested that Oswald should move to Dallas. In February, 1963 he introduced Marina Oswald and Lee Harvey Oswald to Ruth Paine. On 24th April, 1963, Marina and her daughter went to live with Paine. Oswald rented a room in Dallas but stored some of his possessions in Ruth Paine’s garage. Ruth also helped Oswald to get a job at the Texas Book Depository.

In 1963 De Mohrenschildt moved to Haiti. After the assassination of John F. Kennedy De Mohrenschildt was recalled to America to testify before the Warren Commission. He was asked about the claim of Marina Oswald that he knew about Oswald's attempt to kill General Edwin Walker. After giving evidence he returned to Haiti.

De Mohrenschildt returned to the United States in 1977. He approached Edward Jay Epstein complaining that he was short of money. Epstein offered him $4,000 for an interview. During their talks De Mohrenschildt admitted that in 1962 he had been contacted by J. Walton Moore, who was employed by the Central Intelligence Agency in Dallas. De Mohrenschildt was asked by Moore to find out about Oswald's time in the Soviet Union. In return he was given help with an oil deal he was negotiating with Papa Doc Duvalier, the Haitian dictator. In March 1963, De Mohrenschildt got the contract from the Haitian government. He had assumed that this was because of the help he had given to the CIA.

On 29th March, 1977, Epstein and De Mohrenschildt, broke for lunch and decided to meet again at 3 p.m. George De Mohrenschildt returned to his room where he found a card from Gaeton Fonzi, an investigator working for the Select House Committee on Assassinations. George De Mohrenschildt's body was found later that day. He had apparently committed suicide by shooting himself in the mouth.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=6601&hl=Haiti

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3450&hl=Haiti

[gateley]

52. K&R

[Vidar]

53. K&R. Sadly, we'll take down most of the world with us.

[lib2DaBone]

54. k/r True That . Big Banks and their Enforcers...the CIA

[EmeraldCityGrl]

55. Fast forward to today...

Obama has the audacity to appoint GW Bush to fundraise for Haitian relief when in 2004 US Forces kidnapped democratically elected Jean Bertrand Aristide and removed him from power. Forces armed and trained by the US in The Dominican Republic moved in and took over power.

This is who we are. To believe for a moment that our leaders are motivated by anything but greed and power is naive. They have robbed us and anything is possible
As Americans we can't imagine the total breakdown of government, even after Katrina. Just prepare to your very best ability.

[Joanne98]

57. YEP! Those selfish families need some publicity.

[Divine Discontent]

58. I rec'd but it stayed the same #.... even in early morning there's corporatists on this site.

[Raster]

98. corporatists now live on this site 24/7.

[midnight]

60. Well said....

[madokie]

61. Funny that

I was just saying the same things you're saying, which I believe to be true btw, to my wife. Her and I are getting up in the years so we probably won't live to see this happen but our almost 3 year old grand daughter sure may.

Thanks Octafish for all the efforts you put into helping to keep me/us informed, I've gained much from your posts these last few years.

[formercia]

63. A natural disaster of equal or greater magnitude could happen in the US.

Building cities on fault lines is a self-fulfilling prophesy.

[a la izquierda]

64. I'm a historian, so I'm not good at predicting the future

however, I know what happens when so few own so much. Latin America has provided good examples of this. It's weird, I'm not fearful of the future, but I've got to tell you, certain things about my life have changed: I've little desire to have children, at 32; this summer, I'm learning how to grow my own crops; when I graduate with my PhD next year, my husband and I are looking into buying acreage wherever I get a job, so that we can build a house mostly off the grid and raise farm animals (even though we're vegetarians). We'd like to become self-sufficient as much as possible so that if the shit hits the fan, we can help ourselves and our family.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

79. We are doing the same,

We built raised beds for crops, we started keeping chickens, we joined our local feed store co-op and are involved in starting a local pea patch.
We fortunately have a community well. Make sure the land you buy has a private well. This was the first year I grew my own veggies and they were
wonderful. I canned tomatoes, jellies, pickles, salsas, beans, peas, just to name a few. All in all very rewarding.

[Soylent Brice]

71. K&R

and bookmarked, as usual.

you keep driving it home with your amazing foresight.
thank you.

[Triana]

74. We're going down....all the way to the bottom

freefall....

[orbitalman]

75. Octafish is wise enough to draw a possible example...

of our future maybe to the point of prophesy.

[Octafish]

116. My Friend, thank you for the kind words. I'm trying to accomplish the opposite...

...By stating what the future looks like, I'm hoping to set in motion the causes to prevent its occurrence. For my "gift," prophecy comes from the realm of literature.

The idea of spelling out an outcome to avoid its occurrence comes from Anthony Burgess, Ray Bradbury, Brian W. Aldiss and Harry Harrison. These great authors of science fiction, going from a memory now in its fourth decade, said they wrote about nightmare worlds in order to prevent their occurrence in reality. The concept of "creative prevention" (?-my term) is based on Plato's Ideal never being possible in reality. So, we do all we can to prevent its opposite from realization by vocalizing and writing about what it is we want or don't want to see happen.

In the case of Haiti and the United States, that would deliver economic justice for the People, not just the top 1-percent. From what I've seen over five decades is that America's ownership class has zero interest in bettering the conditions for the average American. If trends continue, they think gated neighborhoods and private communities will keep them safe. There are not enough private armies or bullets in the world to do that. Nukes, on the other hand...

PS: Please allow me to extend a belated, but hearty, welcome to DU, orbitalman! As a proponent of space exploration, yours is one great moniker.

[Blue_Tires]

77. ttt -- I also wanted to link this similar discussion:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x125051

[Octafish]

87. Thank you for the heads-up. Outstanding thread, yours.

I met Jean Bertrand Aristide in 1991 or therabouts when he came to speak before the Cranbrook Peace Foundation in metro Detroit. The first democratically elected leader in, like, 75 years said exactly what you said regarding the Haitian generals and the drug trade.

I asked Aristide what could the U.S. do to help him return democracy to Haiti? He said all president George Herbert Walker Bush would have to do is make one phone call and the generals would leave and he could return to office.

Of course, Poppy never made the call. The generals remained until they were forced out a few years late by Bill Clinton and the United States Marine Corps. Meanwhile, cocaine continued to pour in to America.

[malaise]

102. Rather than run the corrupt Duvalier generals out of town

Bush ran Aristide.
For the record I know that the drugs and guns link operates big time between Jamaica and Haiti and security forces and politicians are involved. I also know that some suspect folks were on that short trip to Haiti yesterday. I suspect the shit could hit the fan for some folks if a few hard drives surface in the rubble.

[earth mom]

83. K & R #165! Thanks for speaking the truth that some don't want to hear!

:thumbsup:

[april]

90. good read on history of Haiti

Why is Haiti so Poor?
The question I am asked most frequently is: WHY IS HAITI SO POOR? This is a difficult thing for people to understand, especially for those of us living in a ...
43k - 6 sec @ 56k
www.webster.edu/~corbetre/haiti/misctopic/leftover/whyp

[april]

92. american co in Haiti

The U.S. government has shown an aggressive commitment to court U.S. businesses to invest in Haiti, but it has shown no commitment to the workers who produce for those U.S. companies.
22k - 3 sec @ 56k
www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Caribbean/US_Haiti_Connectio... www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Caribbean/US_Haiti_Connection.html · Cached

[progressoid]

93. Hyperbole RULES!

[Octafish]

119. PHILOSOPHY rules.

"Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world." - Percy Bysshe Shelley

[jotsy]

94. It seems daily I freshen the definition of the growing gap between truth and justice.

The more truth I dig out, the less just it is. What's a mom whose tried to teach her children that it is wrong to lie cheat and steal to do when the world around them sees those things as attributes rather than vices.

The way to a better world gets harder to see because the one we operate within is built on bullying and bilking.

kicked for candor.

[followthemoney]

103. Haiti is Cuba without Castro

Cuba could have been much worse under U.S. "protection".

[FlyByNight]

105. Haiti is the end result of Friedmanism

A tiny, very wealthy elite class and an impoverished majority are the hallmarks of a Friedmanite hell-hole. Ask the Chileans, Russians, the US, etc.

Naomi Klein's The Shock Doctrine outlines this economic behavior brilliantly.

[stray cat]

106. I think I'll vote republican if so many DUers think they have it rough compared to Haiti

[Mark D.]

107. Brilliant Original Post

Shame on those brutally trying to tear down his salient point. Disagree? Fine. Yes, there is 'hope' this won't happen here. That Glass Steagal and loads of other protections will change things. That progressive taxation will become more progressive. Reminds me of the current prez' campaigning for Senate, saying a Democratic Congress, Senate and Whitehouse will be what's needed for single-payer and we can't even get a watered down public option now.

The OP makes a point, that we are on such a path. It's happened world wide, and the course is always to disaster. The 2nd richest man in history was the Czar of Russia. While his state was not as oppressive as Communist Russia, he wasn't cutting the bankers in on it. They took care of that as always. US banker Schiff financed Trotsky-Lenin. Lenin had even admitted later that he'd had his hands on the wheel but someone else was actually steering things.

The trillions the Czar had and national wealth soaked up, into the globalist elite and military powers. The USSR collapsed after 'mission accomplished'. So much. Wealth hoarding & a beacon of hope for Libertarians who could treat EVERY ATTEMPT to make the free market fair, to raise the boats of the bottom 80% 'communist' and associate that with 'socialism'. The 'skeptics' here are correct. We have a ways to go until we'd get there without catastrophe.

The 'real owners' Carlin talked about, the true powers that be. Not the politicians, they just work for them, the O in office is just the 'Oz' on the wall so we don't see the few elite behind the curtain. Corporatist fascism was stated by the OP in a response. Close. In simplest terms, it will be Feudalism. It will lead to such horrors, or revolution, but panic screams for order, so the 'fix' to that revolt will end up being worse than what it'd railed against in the first place.

Nobody knows when it will happen or to what extent. But when a man could graduate high school in the 1950s, get a job that supported a family, house, and new car every 2 years. Making something, not just sweeping the floor for the rich bastard making something just for himself in an under-regulated market where he's taxed too little. When you'll compare that to a married couple, in a small apartment, working 60 hrs each, barely able to support themselves.

I had a union job 20 years ago that paid TWICE what the same job pays today (which of course is non-union most often). Even 'low' inflation since then has combined to make everything 50% more expensive on average. How do you pay 50% more with 50% less money? Credit, as Michael Moore pointed out, in his latest film. When that dries up, and bankruptcy laws are enacted to take protection away from you, you CAN NOT pay. That is the whole point of this.

As the brilliant Max Keiser pointed out. The middle class was a concept created after the Black Plague when so many serfs were wiped out (of course they got sick easier than the well protected elite). They'd needed incentive, they had to actually PAY the non-elite to do things for them, who they saw as necessary evils, or parasites. If only they could get wealth without the help of the very people that system least benefited? But they had to have that then.

Now the need is not so much. We make less and less tangible things here. The salient point of debate is not to what extent we fall. The powers that be love a two-party system that is two sides of the coin in THEIR bank account. Bad enough as that is, in keeping us from a united front against them, the few who have and control almost everything. Now so-called 'left-of-center' folks bicker. Who are the naysayers defending? The trend is real, wake up to it.

[AzDar]

117. K & R

[jdp349]

118. This is sensationalist garbage

Yes the USA is dealing with the issue of concentration of wealth and it is indeed getting worse. However your just nonsensically applying the slippery slope fallacy and taking it to the extreme and assume that the worst outcome is an inherent equilibrium we are approaching.

[Octafish]

121. Thanks for your input,. Certainly, we must be logical. Here's why...

Greedy warmongering bastards are running our country into the ground.

We've got, at least, two illegal, immoral and unnecessary wars going on,

a fiscal policy that benefits the top one-percent

going full speed to raid the Treasury and move the loot offshore,

and idiots controlling everything from the mass media to Congress.

If you are familiar with these issues, I ask you to ask yourself:



"What are we, as citizens, a nation, or as a government, doing to reverse this trend of concentration of wealth and power?" Anything?

Using what the Good Lord gave me, I can see, among other things, it's no wonder we can't get universal health insurance.