Ab-ab-ab, A-bor-tion! (re-post)

[Karenina]

May my clean-up pass muster this time! ;-) O8)

Ahhh, so many pressing questions! :silly:

Is a woman‘s body „private property?“ Are her bodily functions her business and „property?“ She passes a kidney stone. Whose „property“ is it?
SHOULD a woman have the right to decide on abortion at her whim? Does a WOMAN‘S position and stance about HER BODY, HER HEALTH, HER FAMILY, and HER RELATIONSHIPS TRUMP anyone else‘s „opinion“ or position)?

Are doctors aborting „perfectly healthy“ fetuses? :eyes:

Is the debate even worthwhile?

NO. The „debate“ is male-driven. If a woman is determined to rid herself of a fertilized egg, SHE WILL DO SO AT THE RISK OF HER OWN LIFE TO PROTECT HER SOVEREIGNITY. Women have done so down through the ages.

Maybe it‘s just that I‘ve lived outside the good ol‘ USof A for such a long time and have only heard the subject brought up publicly ONE TIME when the Catholic Church sought to encumber the medical system. They were promptly slapped down.

The TORTURED „discussions“ engaged in regularly on this board are indicative of a level of development or perhaps non-development. :think:

Please bear with me as I throw out a bit of red meat...

1. Homo Sapiens have no natural predators and are the biggest threat to sustainability of life on this planet. Our sheer numbers are out of control.

2. There is NO REASON that any child, unwanted by the woman who gestates it, should be born into this deteriorating realm.

3. The FUNDAMENTAL „issue“ is MALE CONTROL of women‘s reproduction.

Somebody post that :puke: signing pic for me. Ich hab kein Bock dort zu gehen...

[BlooInBloo]

1. Dammit. Who hid the popcorn?

[supernova]

2. How sane of you, Karenina

I've come almost to the point of hiding all the abortion threads. It's amazing how many people think that other women's business, whom they do not know, is any of theirs.

Anyway, :applause: to your post.

[originalpckelly]

3. So no atheist woman is against abortion?

[Madspirit]

6. I know of none

...and the American Atheist organization supports choice...100%.

I know of NO woman atheist who is anti-choice.
Lee

[BlooInBloo]

11. There can be no doubt that the anti-choice movement is a fundamentally *religious* movement.

[originalpckelly]

14. So it's impossible for some to think that abortion is not ethical...

and not be a Christian fundie?

[Colobo]

16. It's very possible actually.

It's just that the anti-abortion people are usually fundies. But no: there can be purely ideological reasons to oppose it.

[BlooInBloo]

18. Where you got *that* from, only you know.

[Madspirit]

20. It's how s/he posts.

Making up crap is the way of communicating for this person.
Lee

[Madspirit]

19. No one said that

You like to radically interpret text, put words in people's mouths and go with it, don't you. The MAJORITY of anti-choice nutcases ARE religious. "Majority" does NOT mean there are no exceptions.

Now, let's see how you skew this. Are you going to start throwing out crap about kidneys and livers and clones and lions and tigers and bears, oh my?
Lee

[JerseygirlCT]

37. Plenty of pro-choice people think the same

the difference is that they believe their opinion matters to their decisions, and that other women are just as able to make their own private decisions.

Holding a belief is one thing; legislating it for others is another.

[Karenina]

40. If YOU don't think it's ethical to have an abortion

DON'T HAVE ONE. And if a woman near and dear to you CHOOSES to include you in a discussion about it, state your case to her.

If you are able, do entertain the idea that others may see things differently and are NOT interested in YOUR PERSONAL FRAME of ethics.

[Mushroom]

72. oops

They're Catholic now.

[Karenina]

8. Hä?

Are YOU an atheist woman against abortion? If so, please feel free to state your case, or not. ;-)

[originalpckelly]

21. No, I'm not a woman. I'll never know what it's like to be a woman...

because even if I were to attempt that route, I would not be fertile. So it's pretty much impossible for me to get this debate in the same way. I know a woman who's not pro-choice and she's not a christian fundamentalist, and she's also a Democrat. It's not impossible. She's against abortion because her parents had a string of abortions before she was born, and she was going to be aborted, but they changed their minds. To me that was a very compelling reason to think about this, because I really just listened to everyone else growing up and through life. I feel awful for not thinking about something that affects so many people every year, even if you just count the mothers who have the abortions.

[Colobo]

22. Not all pro-life people are religious

I used to be pro-life and I didn't have a religious argument as backup.

[originalpckelly]

23. Why were you and why did you change your opinion?

[Colobo]

24. I considered and consider abortion to be a "violent" procedure

In the sense that it intends to destroy or negate a potential life in gestation by an invasive procedure. No wonder why it is such a serious event in the lives of women, something that seems to have a strong emotional impact in the person. For instance, I have always believed abortion should be legal, but I believed then it needed to be discouraged.

Right now, I believe women know what's best for them, even though I still see abortion as something inherently negative and violent that should be avoided. I'm a big believer in open sexual education, in the re-education of men in Western societies (men need to learn to manage their sexuality responsibly, given that we are the ones that carry the seeds needed for a pregnancy and the ones that do not deal with pregnancies directly) and in open availability of birth control methods everywhere. Abortion is something women really should not need to go through except for particular cases that include failure of birth control methods, rapes, health concerns, etc, because a well managed sexuality and good use of birth control methods should work well for everyone.

[JerseygirlCT]

38. Yup, there you go

That's where the middle ground is.

It wouldn't be my choice, personally. But damned if that makes it my right to make that choice for anyone else.

Making abortion less needed is the way to go. Limiting it legally will only cause more deaths -- it won't stop abortions.

[Karenina]

45. Having a cancerous tumor removed

is an invasive procedure designed to destroy living cells that are destroying their host. Do you see anything inherently negative and violent that should be avoided in that case? Don't go ballistic on me, boyfriend, WOIK WIT ME HYEAH! ;-) You say:

"Abortion is something women really should not need to go through except for particular cases that include failure of birth control methods, rapes, health concerns, etc..."

Your wording here infantilizes women and codifies when THEIR interests should take precedence. You assume it's traumatic. Yes, in today's world it can be for some in particular environs, however, many studies show that on the whole it is NOT.

In former times, when people were much closer to the earth that sustains them, women had easier access to tribal knowledge to limit family size. They HAD to be aware of environmental factors to enhance the chances of the survival of those ALREADY on their way to maturity and adulthood. In some societies an infant was NOT considered "viable" or a part of the community until it survived for a year outside the womb.

I appreciate your concession that "Women know what's best for them..." and would add that they may also know what's best for their community-at-large.

[Karenina]

51. And YOUR personal second hand story

has to do with WHAT again? You'd do better showing women some respect and following Dear Abby's advice: MYOB.

[originalpckelly]

54. No, it's a first hand experience. Just meeting someone for whom that is true...

made think. It was an experience in and of itself. It made me think about the consequences of abortion. The consequence in her case was quite clear, no meeting no person to meet if the parents had an abortion. No abortion, there was a meeting and a person to meet. It's like an experiment in a way to test the consequences of abortion. Someone who was in existence is taken out of existence by abortion, and when there is no abortion there was a person.

[Karenina]

59. Errraaa... OOKaaay

Your post speaks for itself.

[Greyhound]

64. We definitely need a "dee-dee-dee"* smiley here

*Thanks to Carlos Mencia.

I go back & forth on whether people like this are really that stupid or just that crazy, either way it ain't good.
:kick:

[Warpy]

4. Thank you for putting the WOMAN back in the debate

because the pro birthers out there keep trying to erase her, turn her into a walking flowerpot with no hopes, dreams, opinions or LIFE of her own.

[Madspirit]

5. Alternet just posted

77% of the anti-choice morons...not "morans" because we have them on our side too....are MEN.

100% of those men will NEVER be pregnant.

I truly really believe men should have NO say in this issue.

Lee

[SteelPenguin]

12. I disagree

I'm a man and I feel I should have a say in this issue. What if by the time my daughter is 14 the laws are changed and she can't have an abortion and she's raped. Or she gets pregnant and the fetus is damaged or endangering her life. Or closer to the present, what if my wife were to get pregnant again, but have her life endangered while medically unable to make a decision.

Just because I'll personally never be pregnant doesn't mean that I am not involved deeply and legally in the lives of women I care about who I know that abortion could be used to protect both their physical and mental and emotional health, and that there are circumstances which would put that decision in my court.

I understand what your point is, but I just highly disagree with it. I don't have a right to tell YOU what to do with your body, but in the right circumstance (or wrong circumstance depending on the point of view) it WOULD be my decision with regards to my wife or daughter, and I intend to support choice in order to protect their lives and health if it were to become necessary.

[Madspirit]

17. You would

As next of kin you would have a say. I'm talking about in deciding the law.
Lee

[SteelPenguin]

35. If i'm involved I should have a say.

If the decision could ever fall into my court, then protecting the availability of that decision, and therefore protecting my loved ones, shouldn't be restricted to me.

Just because a majority of a group differ in opinion to you doesn't automatically disqualify them from having a say in how a law is written, even if it doesn't directly, or could never, directly affect them. That way lies madness.

[hfojvt]

13. takes the burden off of me then

most of the pro-life nuts I have argued with have been women. I guess they could have just told me to butt out. But what percentage of pro abortion 'morons' are men? What about non-morons? What is the breakdown in men and women between pro-choice and anti-choice?

[Colobo]

15. I'm a man, I believe in choice and

given the fact women don't make babies by themselves (Oh, we, sperm producers!), I feel like I have the right voice my opinion on the issue.

In fact, a responsible handling of male sexuality empowers women even more than abortion does.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

44. What if the man is against the pregnancy and the woman wants it?

When I was married, I got pregnant and my husband insisted I have an abortion. I told him if he didn't like it he could leave.

I wanted this child, we were married, we had insurance, and there was no reason for me not to have the child except for HIS selfishness. He was worried about the responsibility and the fact that kids cost MONEY. That was all he cared about.

I'm pro-choice, and I chose to have this child. She is the light of my life. Besides, I didn't want my family to die off. I wanted to leave a child behind, and I wanted to experience motherhood.

In order to punish me for having the child, he got custody of her and I had to pay HIM child support (although I could not get a steady job, and have far more education than he does) even when I was unemployed for many years. I had to pay him child support, and pay part of her very expensive Montessori education, until she graduated from high school in 2004.

How many women do you know that would be that determined to have a child against the wishes of the father, who they were married to? I was determined and I'm glad, although I went thru hell because the child's father was against it, and made me pay for 18 years. I was the one who went through the hell of labor and a C-section, major abdominal surgery, and recovery. I lost 6 months from work because of pregnancy and delivery, because I was so big I couldn't sit up without hurting.

He is a fool. I told him that millions of couples would give everything they own to have a healthy, normal child. He didn't listen. He only saw her as a burden, not a joy. He even got mad at me for insisting on going to the medical center to have the child, and couldn't understand why I didn't go to the nearest hospital and drop the child in two hours. He accused me of being "lazy" when I was laying in a hospital bed for four days, with a catheter in me, and unable to get up because I had had major abdominal surgery so I wouldn't die in childbirth.

[Karenina]

46. Only if you are willing to share...

WHY did he get custody?

[GreenEyedLefty]

61. I understand your curiosity...

However, my ex had custody of my older child for 7 years. People used to wonder out loud what I did to "lose custody." Surely I had to be a criminal, a crackhead or some complete lazy ass. Well, none of the above was true. I didn't lose custody, we made a different arrangement. Inasmuch as not too many people question why dads don't have custody, it strikes me as a bit of a double standard to do the same to women.

I'm sorry in advance if your intentions were good. It's just a little pet peeve of mine.

[Karenina]

69. Having also been a non-custodial parent

I understand your point COMPLETELY and appreciate your making it!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

62. Because he kicked and screamed and raised hell.

He raised hell and spent about $50K on lawyers to "destroy" (his words) me and my parents.

Texas assumes equal parenting ability, because we are a community property state. That means that women are equal in their rights to own property, because we have good law stating women have the right to own property in their own name, buy and sell it in their own name, even if married, going back to 1836, the first year of the Republic of Texas. This is because of Spanish law.

In Texas we do not have alimony, we have separate maintenance. Separate maintenance is support for the woman that is temporary, until she gets back on her feet. The woman is assumed to be just as responsible for the support of the family as the man is, and just as able to get a job. It's the complete opposite of New York, for example.

We had what is called a "Joint Managing Conservatorship". Usually the primary parent is the "Managing Conservator" and the non-custodial parent is the "Possessory Conservator". In reality, I got alternate weekend visitation and had to pay child support like the typical father.

He made no allegations that I was an unfit mother, therefore he could not call me "Possessory Conservator".

However, when I separated from him my health broke, due to his constant nagging, and I was in and out of the hospital with bronchitis, bacterial pneumonia and sinus infections for about five years. My doctor had to rinse my lungs out four times in five years so I wouldn't die, because my immune system was seriously weakened. I would have literally drowned in my own pus-filled lungs. Sorry to be gross, but that's how bad it was.

My ex said that I faked my illness, and that I bribed the doctor to put me in the hospital and say I was sick. He seriously believed this. Like being sick in the hospital and having trouble breathing, and being afraid you are going to die, is something fun. He makes this stuff up and believes it.
:wtf:

[Manifestor_of_Light]

63. He also said he didn't like our infant child until she learned to talk.

:wtf:

Talk about male control! He did a good job of it, aided by the courts!!

[Greyhound]

66. So sorry for your trials, glad you made it.

The one-word response of "Texas" would have been sufficient.

[Morgana LaFey]

47. THAT I'd like an explanation of --

In fact, a responsible handling of male sexuality empowers women even more than abortion does.

I'm all for the "responsible handling of male sexuality" for a change, but I'd really like to hear how you think that "empowers women."

Edit: Perhaps you should start with an exposition of what you consider responsible handling of male sexuality. Perhaps you should start a new thread -- and if so, please either PM me with the link or add it here. TIA.

[Karenina]

76. I winced reading that bit too...

x(

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

27. Almost Every Scientific Poll On The Issue I've Ever Seen Had More Women Than Men Against Abortion.

That 77% is far from accurate.

[Colobo]

28. I think many men simply don't think about it.

[Madspirit]

31. Take it up with Alternet.com...n/t

[originalpckelly]

34. I'm interested in reading the article, but cannot find it...

do you have a link for it?

[Madspirit]

36. Email Address

I got it in my email because I am on their alert list. PM me with your email address and I will forward it to you.
Lee

[Madspirit]

39. CLARIFYING!!

I just went back and looked because I forwarded it to StrangeOne...and it said 77% of the LEADERS of the anti-choice movement are men. I find THAT even more offensive.
Lee

[originalpckelly]

42. Oh the graphic!

I see it, I had images turned off in GMAIL. I kept asking myself where it was.

It doesn't give a source though, so I don't know if the statistic is accurate. Given the lack of interest in caring about women in the religious pro-life movement, I think that it's actually very likely their leaders are men.

I read the story and I didn't see anything in it that said that. I think I'll have to try and find out if they is a statistic elsewhere that is sourced on about this issue.

[originalpckelly]

30. Well of course, men aren't human either.

[Madspirit]

41. Not About THAT

No one is saying men aren't human. We're saying they don't get pregnant.
Lee

[Morgana LaFey]

48. Oh, I dunno.

I might say that.

:evilgrin:

[Madspirit]

7. kicking and recommending...n/t

[Colobo]

9. More than "male control", it's social control in general

When women's rights are in danger, everyone's rights are as well.

[Karenina]

74. Another BINGO!

During the Civil Rights era, those who supported the concepts enshrined in the Constitution came together and DEMANDED to be heard. EVERYONE BENEFITTED. It has been CLEARLY DEMONSTRATED around the globe, that when WOMEN'S needs and concerns are prioritized somewhere near the top, THE ENTIRE SOCIETY benefits.

[ceile]

10. k&r

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

25. LOL

I just love silly stuff like this...


"The „debate“ is male-driven."


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: God that's just so silly. Do you not realize that more women than men advocate limiting abortion rights? Is this lost on you? Ehhhh, Maybe you just like intentionally speaking false sexist declarations just for sake of doing so. Makes me laugh though.


"There is NO REASON that any child, unwanted by the woman who gestates it, should be born into this deteriorating realm."

Oh C'mon, You really believe that? Okey dokey. To each their own I guess.


"The FUNDAMENTAL „issue“ is MALE CONTROL of women‘s reproduction."

Again, :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: No, no, it isn't. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Pretty funny to see such a deep and multi faceted topic reduced to such simplistic terms though!

[Colobo]

29. The "men vs. women" thing is so manichaean...

[Morgana LaFey]

49. Yeah, as long as men predominate in legislatures around the

country, incuding in Washington, D.C. where this "partial birth abortion ban" was passed, and as long as 5 men on the SCOTUS voted against it, you goddamned BET it's MALE CONTROL of women's reproduction.

And even if it could be true that most of the anti-abortion activists are women, they're STILL serving a patriarchal world of domination and oppression of women -- it's STILL MALE CONTROL of women's reproduction, and their health and their very lives.

You can laugh all you want. Someday, if you're lucky, you'll realize the folly is yours.

[Karenina]

50. "There is NO REASON that any child

unwanted by the woman who gestates it, should be born into this deteriorating realm."

Hey, Morgana! What you say?

[Morgana LaFey]

58. Great thread, Karenina

Hey, Morgana! What you say?

I basically agree, but I'm not comfortable with the way it's phrased, and I'll tell you why.

"There is NO REASON that any child unwanted by the woman who gestates it, should be born into this deteriorating realm."

First, how I agree: Of course women should have complete autonomy and sovereignty over our own bodies. Anything less is simply barbaric, no two ways about it. Of course women's licensed healthcare providers should be completely free to prescribe needed medical procedures, along with the informed consent of the women involved. Anything less is barbaric. No two ways about tht either.


So what about the phrasing am I uncomfortable with? Only this: when I read the sentence, I have to think it through, getting to the point past viable fetuses -- not that *I* am concerned about flighty women making foolish choices and killing viable fetuses with the help of evil doctors for whom the Hippocratic oath means nothing.... No. It's just that the phrasing leaves that option open and unaddressed and tends to feed into the rightwing meme that viable fetuses would get killed if women had total and complete autonomy in the matter (with their evil doctors' complicity, of course).

Not sure I've been clear.

But yes, I am absolutely, 100% pro-choice. Pro-woman. Pro-family. I believe that EVERY CHILD should enter the world wanted, loved, prepared for.

[Karenina]

60. BINGO!

:loveya: The phrasing is intentional. I have an early class and will get back on the morrow! Schlaft gut!

[Karenina]

70. That any uninvolved party feels

the overwhelming NEED to address that issue goes PRECISELY the core issue of women's sovereignty. It's nothing more than an emotional canard.

One l-o-n-g thread began:

I cannot reconcile the idea that a woman would get an abortion with only three-four months to go...

It's an IMAGINARY problem, however there are NO STATS, STUDIES, EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE or ANYTHING ELSE that will soothe this troubled soul's mind because in his heart of hearts he KNOWS women cannot be "trusted" and by association, neither can their families and their medical partners.

Control of women's bodies has been a battleground for millenia. Whether it's the head-scarf, FGM, abortion or ascension to the throne, the basic question is: WHO DECIDES?

[Madspirit]

55. Yay Morgana!!...n/t

[omega minimo]

67. THISPOSTISANEXAMPLEOFWHAT KARININAISREFERRINGTO

[Usrename]

68. How do the women on the Supreme Court fit into your calculus?

:eyes:

[Der Blaue Engel]

26. K&R

:applause:

[Control-Z]

32. self delete

because I don't trust myself to speak after reading some of the comments in this thread.

[Solly Mack]

43. ((((dancingAlone))))

(((((((morehugs))))))

[Control-Z]

53. Solly, thank you.

Did you know how much I needed those? :hug:

[Solly Mack]

77. I needed them too... Thank you

:)

[Control-Z]

78. Well, then

here are a few more. :hug: :hug: :hug:

I'm sorry you need them but I've plenty to give. PM me if you need more.

[Madspirit]

33. Kick...n/t

[ismnotwasm]

52. I think

A male's choice ends once he's ejaculated. He had the choice not to have sex where he ejaculated in or around a vagina of a female. For the ones who say they were "tricked" or lied to, they still had that choice. They still do.

Illegal or not abortion is never, ever going away as long as women's bodies are where it all starts and finishes. Ever. Deal with it people. Perhaps we can learn to deal with it without acrimony.


Making abortion illegal, dramatizing it, exaggerating it, emotionalizing the fetus-- all of it's bullshit.

[originalpckelly]

56. Illegal or not murder is never, ever going anywhere as long as people can die.

Would you support making murder legal?

That argument is bullshit, because nothing would be illegal if it were true.

[Madspirit]

57. Kicking it up a notch...n/t

[AtomicKitten]

65. abortion is a non-negotiable woman's right

period

[Threedifferentones]

71. "The debate is male-driven,"

because there aren't any women who vote for cadidates solely because they want to make abortion illegal.

Oh wait, I have met dozens, and so has everyone else.

[Karenina]

75. I have a distant relative who is such a woman.

She's had 2 abortions, has same-sex orientation, is MORBIDLY OBESE and is in a "covenant marriage" to a "feeder" whose permission she must ask for EVERYTHING. She wants abortion made ILLEGAL because of HER experiences and unresolved issues; voted for *TWICE.

I told her I was not a suitable Gesprächspartner for her but she continued to call. In her heart of heart she's really a sweet, gentle soul. I didn't want to disturb her. Finally, I just let her talk for an hour, knowing she hadn't the sense to apply for an international rate on her phone and "male-driven" agendas. Her HUSBAND, upon receiving the bill FORBADE her to speak to me ever again. :evilgrin:

[Firespirit]

73. Terri Schiavo

The right to abortion is ABSOLUTELY as fundamental as the right to "pull the plug" on life support systems.

When a person has suffered severe brain damage, cannot survive independently of machines, etc., it is the RIGHT of the designated legal custodian to choose to cut off life support. The injured person has no say in it because they CAN'T.

Abortion is the same way. Even IF a fetus is a "person" (which I don't believe), there is a legal precedent for one person to end the life of another without their consent.