Full-time living expenses , in a part-time world

[SoCalDem]

This is the biggest "challenge" we are facing, as a society.

Many of us grew up in a time when people did things in a very proscribed manner.
There were "rules".

Young people had their schooling & then their apprenticeships, and the "reward" for their diligence was a career, and a stable lifestyle.

They may not have wanted to replicate their elders' lives , but they at least wanted the opportunity to have a lifestyle at least as good as their parents'.

Parents let their children know that , at first, they would have to skimp & struggle a bit, but the payoff would be a comfortable life.


All bets are off now, and have been off for a very long time.

Students "graduate" with an unmanageable load of debt, into a marketplace that does not value their education, and sees them as low-paid wage-slaves, eager to do anything for any paycheck.

Saving is not even an option for most young people starting out today. If part-time work is all that many can even find, or some combination of internship/paid work is the other option, they won't even make enough to support themselves.


Many experts comment on how so many young people do not marry as young as in previous times. In some ways, I see this as a self-preservation reflex. "25 yr old woman, with $40K school debt, marries 27 yr old man, with $50K school debt"... How many people here think that's a marriage "made in heaven"?

Young people in that predicament may never be able to maintain the creditworthiness necessary to buy a home, or afford a family, or even a good loan rate for the cars they would need to get from job to job.

No matter how far we have come, we still see our own debt as a bit shameful..as something we don't really want to share with others. It's got to be a daunting thing to be dating someone, and to fall in love with them,. and then to have to have "that talk"... you know.. the "talk" where you tell them how much money you owe, and how broke you really are..

I had a friend who said that the way you could tell if it was "true love" was when you could throw up in front of that "other" person, and they would not be grossed out. I think the modern version might be , when you tell them how in debt you are, and they do not run for the hills, never to be seen again..

But having said that, love will not "cure" debt....but debt can (and will) kill love.

Even people who manage to find full-time work...work that pays well.. can never be comfortable, since every day there is news about companies being bought and sold and jobs being eliminated. Everyone goes to work with a sense of dread, every time a few people go into an office and close the door, a chill falls over the office.

People who thought they had careers, are finding out that they are 40-something, and unemployed...and possibly forever (in their former line of work).

Humans are inventive creatures, but we are being asked to re-invent ourselves multiple times, all-the-while trying to manage lives & raise families. This calls into question the whole purpose of a higher education. Why waste time and money to get a degree in something if the "payoff" will only last a while, and then you will be expected to start all over?

18-25 yr olds may be in a position to go in many directions at once until they find their true calling, but it's really unfair to ask people to do this over and over and over and over.

Daily living costs are pretty much fixed for most people. There are basics that have to be paid for: rent/mortgage...food...transportation to and from work..clothes on your back...shoes on your feet..seeing a doctor when you're sick..

If you cannot find full-time work that provides enough money for the basics of life, how can you even begin to manage on part time jobs?

I know there are millions of people who are doing this (or trying to), but falling further behind, month after month, is no way to live....not for the long haul anyway.

The public has lost faith, because too many of us lived by the rules..we played fairly, we did our part, and every time we thought it was about to "pay off", the rules were either re-written, or simply thrown away.. We keep passing "GO", but the "Collect $200" part is not enough.

Even now that there is a plan to help small businesses borrow money for "new hires".. Well that's just ducky, BUT what about re-hiring all the people laid off BEFORE those "new-hires"?

And if a small business hires/re-hires? ...then what?

Demand drives the economy. If there is no demand, making more "stuff", will not solve the problem..

Stuff is a big part of our problem. Money spent for "stuff" is used to pay low wages to the people who stack & sell the "stuff", and to the operators of the big-box corporations, but the lion's share of the money spent does not recirculate within the communities where it's spent. The only money that circulates, is the wages made by the people who live there...and if they spend their money for "stuff" at other big-boxes..well the law of diminishing returns comes into play pretty quickly.

A society of part-time workers selling foreign-made "stuff" to other part-time workers is no way to run a vibrant economy...especially when houses cost "full-time" money..so do cars & washers & dryers & dishwashers & college costs "full-time" money too...so do medical care premiums.

[HillbillyBob]

1. Yep been doin it that way since runnyfukinraygun

may he rot in hell with jerry fallwell as his tormentor.

[juno jones]

2. I know THAT talk well.

It is why my partner of 13 years and myself are not married. Neither of us have insurance and neither of us want our debts (incurred mostly before we met) to affect the other.

He probably has no SS coming. The student loans for what is now a useless degree have seen to that.

[mdmc]

3. Raygun!

[wolfgangmo]

8. Every time one of my wife's poor right wing family mentions their Raygun Love.

I go off my rails, but up to recently I have bit my lips and kept my mouth shut. I just couldn't this last time.

On of my in laws starting in the "the greatest president... blah, blah, blah" and I just had to say something. I told my MiLaw that Kennedy was a great president {she loves Kennedy} but that Reagan was the worst president this country has ever had. Period. My BiLaws joined in support of Raygun and I just went off on them.

I fucking hate Reagan for supply side economics. If their is any universal justice then Reagan and Milton Friedman are slow roasting on the same spit in hell.

[latebloomer]

4. When I went to college in the 70s

my parents were able to pay for most of it out of their middle-class income. They didn't have to save my entire life and still not have anywhere near enough.

Same with houses - in the late 60s my parents bought a fairly nice house in Northern NJ for $30K. They were making significantly more than that annually. Now a house costs several time your income.

My husband and I also make what you'd think was a fairly decent income and we're quailing about how much in hock we're gonna have to go to send our 2 teens through college. And we're professionals, not part-time service workers.

They've made it so you have to be very affluent to afford what used to be in the reach of many.

[SoCalDem]

5. My husband made enough working summers, to pay for the next yr's college

he worked at JC Penney's shoe department.. he graduated debt-free..

[Nay]

39. That's what I did, too--worked pt-time jobs and put myself thru

Florida State. I paid my own rent, phone, etc., too. But you could NEVER do that now. It's impossible. The income would never touch the cost of college. I try to dissuade kids from going to college unless they are so talented in a valuable area that it would be a shame for them not to go. College is now mainly a criminal waste of time and money.

[LiberalEsto]

13. Same here

Tuition at Rutgers University was $200 a semester when I started there in 1969.

My daughter went there for 2 years as an out-of-state student and racked up $30,000 in student loan debt.

[Flatulo]

24. I was able to pay my college tuition with a part-time job. This was

back in the '70s and a top-rated engineering school was $4K per year.

Now you'd need a part-time job as a brain surgeon to work your way thru school.

The destruction of the middle class is damn near complete. All we need is a few thousand more tent cities.

[raccoon]

6. Rec'd! Great post. nt

[newtothegame]

7. We've always bashed the conservatives for the "Way back when" arguments...

so I'm gonna have to disagree with this one.

[wolfgangmo]

9. The reason we bash right winger for those arguments is that they were BS.

By which I mean that the arguments, the moony, pie in the sky, I like Ike rhetoric they used was window dressing that they used to hide the NEW and DESTRUCTIVE policies that they implemented.

Eisenhower would have crapped his pants to see what his party has become. He beleived that we all had to share in the cost of society. The NEO CONSERVATIVES believe that if it ain't nailed down that you should steal it and then blame the blacks/gays/women/abortionist/etc. for the theft.

That is the difference. We actually believe in the values of the "old days" where we all stood together, helping each other out. Where the rich paid their share for what they got for using the public infrastructure. Those are ideals worth holding. The New REpubs don't hold those ideals, they just pay lip service to them.

We are not hypocrites about it. We actually believe.

[liberation]

35. False dichotomies sure are easy to come up with...

... too bad they are generally wrong.

[bertman]

10. By, "we as a society" I assume that you are referring to those of us in the working classes,

be they upper-middle, middle, lower, or poverty classes. Certainly this does not apply to the top 2 or 3 percent.

For a very revealing look at the way true job security is obtained for the children of the financial elites, read "Family of Secrets" by Russ Baker. The story of George W. Bush, the man who never found a business he could not run into the ground, is told in all of its gory detail. If it were not true, it would be unbelievable that such a human could have ever become President of the United States.

Rec.

[SoCalDem]

11. yep.. the super-rich always take care of their own

and their miscreant offspring never lack for businesses to sink, cars to crash, or houses to live in.

The very rich might as well live on Pluto..they are pretty far-removed from the rest of us..

[bongbong]

12. The Golden Era is gone

Those of us who are a "certain age" remember the days spoken of by the OP very well, but they were due to a distinctly a-historical turn of events.

America had a strong Liberal tradition of money and prosperity trickling up, rather than trickling (mostly not trickling) down. This was of course due to the reforms by FDR. We also had the world to ourselves, largely because the rest of the world had been blown up in WWII - also courtesy of FDR, but of course caused by the right-wingers gaining power in Germany, Italy, and Japan.

None of this is news to any political junkie! But the fact that this was really quite an unprecedented event - at least in the post-colonial world - might not be so obvious.

Bye-bye America 1945-1980. Hello Bangladesh.

PS: It might be time to move FDR up a notch or two on historical rankings of Presidents....

[KillCapitalism]

16. Bangladesh?

You're quite optimistic, I was thinking more along the lines of Sierra Leone.

[Flatulo]

19. Think Upper Volta. With rockets.

[ddeclue]

18. From #2 to #1 is about all he can do..

[avaistheone1]

23. No wonder FDR was reelected so many times.

He was deserved beloved by the people of this country.

[RaleighNCDUer]

32. I could never move FDR up on any historical rankings -

where do you go when you are already at the top?

[Blue_Tires]

14. kick for truth

great, great insights

[Flatulo]

15. You nailed it. In the '80s, we were told that the Japanese were

working harder than us, and if we didn't put in more hours, we would lose our jobs.

So everyone started working 50, then 55, then 60 hour weeks. We lost our jobs anyway.

In the '90 we were told that we have to manufacture everything in China, or else we would not be able to compete and we would lose our jobs.

So we shipped everything over to China and promptly lost our jobs.

Now anything that can be done on a computer can be done anywhere in the world that has copper wire, so engineering, radiology, accounting, marketing and legal are all being moved to China, India and elsewhere.

I see that there are entire websites and businesses dedicated to sending American jobs overseas.

I'm 54 and got laid-off last year after 30 years in the same industry and 22 years with the same outfit. My job went to a Chinese engineer who made less than 20% of what I was making. I have been looking for full-time work for 9 months now, but all I can get is temp positions with no benefits. I can get interviews because I have great skills, but the minute I get in the door and the HR person sees my age, I get the bum's rush. I haven't had a day off since August '09 and probably will never get full-time employment again in my life. I spend over 1/3 of my net pay on a mandated health plans and the rest trying to keep afloat. I have to dip into savings every month. (I know - you lucky bastard - you have savings!).

My only hope is an early death.

I would have to say that the global economy has been a bit of a letdown for me.

[ddeclue]

17. You've described my life and most people I know..beautiful.. let me add:

I'm 43 and I don't see how you're EVER supposed to be able to get married, have kids, buy a house, etc., etc.

Both people are under such career and financial stress that they can hardly even get together in the first place.

You can't count on a relationship lasting when one or both of you will likely have to move out of town to find your next job.

You can just forget about getting that expensive diamond ring from me and the fancy wedding and expensive honeymoon too. Who can afford them these days when you can hardly afford to live indoors?

Our parents really don't understand these things because they worked and retired in a different world. Mine live in a nice house and are relatively free from debt and never had to worry about finding a job or saving for their retirement and had guaranteed pensions, not just 401K's to fall back on. I have NEITHER a 401K (um I mean a 41K) NOR a pension to fall back on. The people I know who have a 401K have lost a huge amount of the value and haven't gotten it back and are NOW having to cash it in at a tax penalty just to pay their bills. The people I know my age with houses are now in the process of losing them to foreclosure.. fortunately I rent but I don't know where the money for THAT will come this month if I don't get a job call right away.

There just aren't any jobs anymore unless you have a security clearance or a medical license or you can afford to live off a military paycheck. The "engineering" jobs these days hardly ever are about designing "things" or manufacturing them or testing them. They are website design jobs - i.e. they are to sell things made in other countries. The only "things" manufactured or engineered here any more are weapons of war.

Why because the corporatocracy has shipped these regular manufacturing jobs to China and now there is no demand for any new products because nobody has any money to buy them.

[tonysam]

20. It's worse when you're single and sole support.

You are paying the same thing as two working spouses for the same items.

[SoCalDem]

21. I hear you,, but at least you are the only one spending the money

and don't have to worry about someone else blowing through the budget, and if you are lucky, you might get roommates to help with expenses..as long as they are not "romantic" roommates...

My single friend is seriously thinking about moving from the house she rents, and getting herself an all-expenses paid room to rent.. She's paying all the bills and the $1000.00 a month rent and her lazy son (28) thinks it's fine to "crash" at her place whenever the mood strikes him..

By renting a room, she would be spending flat rate every month and there would be no "crashing"...on her dime..

[tonysam]

22. There's still another income, however.

That working spouse is a buffer.

It's damned hard to make it if there is NO money coming in. Big difference.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

25. Thank you for putting this in writing.

You have described perfectly the huge burden that so many people now face.

[Kievan Rus]

26. "Service economy" = shell game

[Hannah Bell]

27. "so many young people do not marry"

institution to transfer property to legitimate heirs.

no property = declining marriage rates

[HughBeaumont]

28. Uh-Meric-UH. You want success? PAY up!

Not just talking blood, sweat and tears, here. We're talking about time and most importantly, MONEY. And you'd better have LOTS of it, or get used to flippin' burgers for a livin', brother. Because after the corporatists are through, there isn't going to be a living wage job to be had or a pot to piss in, and the window's fast-a-closin'.

College? COUGH up. Study on your own all you want, blah blah blah, but guess what? Employers want SKINS (even though it's doubtful any of them even check). And you can forget about just associates degrees. Today's bachelor's degrees are yesterday's high school diplomas. Hell, even MBAs are getting laid off with regularity nowadays and a recent article states that PhDs aren't even the guarantee they once were.

Want to start a business? COUGH up. "BECOME the owner". Riiiiiiiiiight. You know, because we ALL have tons of start-up capital, a product to sell, an audience for that product, money to pay for medical care, repeat business and an insane amount of luck which will drive us to be the 1 out of 10 small businesses that DOESN'T fail. We can sure pay the bills on THAT crapshoot. Ask several DUers who own businesses how easy it is. Republican Libertarians think it's easy, so it MUST be so. That's because many of them aren't DOING it.

Want a place to live? You know the drill.

Got a disease or a health condition because you weren't born lucky? SORRY. We're insurance conglomerates. We're too strong, too numerous and you ain't got a SHRED of hope in the world for that "universal health care" nonsense. We're not in business for our health, much less yours. COUGH up, and we're not talking cold germs. Got a couple hundred . . . thousand handy?

We live in a world where mere survival almost completely depends on how gainfully one is employed.

We live in a world where getting sick means the END of your world as you know it.

We live in a world where we fear rich people so much we wouldn't THINK of harming them or making their lives less comfortable in ANY way, even if it means losing everything we worked so hard for at their behest.

We don't value education, we don't value our brothers and sisters well being, we treat everything as a rigid box rather than a flowing circle, we waste far too much money, time and toil for the needs of an overfed handful and we're too entrenched in vanity wars against sovereign nations that have done nothing to harm ONE American citizen.

It's a disgrace. An absolute fucking DISGRACE.

[defendandprotect]

30. GOP's "third world America" . .. think I'm referring to it now as "America" . .. !!

[PSzymeczek]

41. More like

"Amerikkka"

[ddeclue]

37. Another excellent rant that needs to be its own OP!

[raccoon]

47. Great post, especially this:

"We live in a world where mere survival almost completely depends on how gainfully one is employed."


Mere. fucking. survival.

[defendandprotect]

29. Re that "piece of paper" . . . education --

The last decades have been about overturning the "New Deal" and highly successful

right wing propaganda led the way . . .

Too many were unaware of the New Deal and what it had done for America -- too unaware

to protect it!

And while that was going on corporations were buying our elected officials!



This calls into question the whole purpose of a higher education. Why waste time and money to get a degree in something if the "payoff" will only last a while, and then you will be expected to start all over?


About 5 years of so ago, there were articles appearing suggesting that the value of that piece

of paper had dropped so substantially that 4 years of actual on the job training was probably

more valuable.

Needless to say, that piece of paper is the invention of the elite to benefit the elite --

and they don't want the poor and middle class confusing things for them.

Look at Bush -- and his education!!

Also -- we're not educating people for their own benefit, to enrich their own lives.

We're giving them corporate educations -- educations where they are not taught to think

and to challenge ideas, especially those being taught to them! Whether medicine or

business ... this is sadly true --

[JDPriestly]

31. SoCalDem, you have written the story of my life.

Without counting part-time jobs ranging from washing dishes at a pizza parlor to waiting tables (including McDonalds) to baby-sitting (full-time) to delivering ads door-to-door to soda jerk to bookstore manager and other jobs in that bookstore to secretarial work to paralegal, I have had four serious careers. In three of my serious careers (each time I thought I had the career of my life), I got degrees including, of course, two graduate degrees. Money, money, money and I still owe on the last degree.

I liked Obama's idea of limiting debt payments to 10% of income and forgiving debt after 20 years. That's the only realistic thing to do in today's economy -- unless we want to crumble into third-world economic status even faster than we are.

[fry cook from venus]

33. Thank you, SoCalDem

This sounds like my biography. I'm part of that demographic. Working part-time for minimum wage with nothing to show for my college career other than $40K in debt, and having looked for work for the past 6 months only to be met with, "We're looking for someone with more experience," or "We can't hire now due to a freeze."

I wrote to the President purely out of desperation. I'm not sure what to do anymore. There's almost nothing that I can feel optimistic about. I only hope that the spine Obama showed during the SOTU comes to fruition and myself and everyone else in this (or a similar) situation can catch some hopeful break.

[elocs]

34. Just think, to somebody living now "these" will be the good old days.

Scary thought, isn't it?

I really feel bad for young people today, those that are still in school. I don't think the future is bright for them either financially or for the quality of life of this Earth. As a Boomer, we based our hopes and dreams upon those of our parents and grew up with the promise that our lives would be better than theirs and that we would have more. Well, surprise, surprise.

I think these children will need to develop their own life philosophy that does not involve having "stuff" to be happy. I think they will have to live with the reality as it exits rather than getting caught up in the fantasy of the American dream. They will have to strive to make their lives the best they can be at the time and not compare it with what their parents or grandparents had because more often that not comparison leads to dissatisfaction.

[katty]

36. yes, this is growing exponentially, some friends are deep into

adjusting to this reality, sharing space, moving in together. we've become China's grazing (consumer) herd.

[Mike_03]

38. Superb beyond belief, but that is not a surprise from you.

My only sorrow is that I cannot rec a thread over 24 hrs old.

You hit the nail on the head. It takes some authors an entire book to say what you managed to express in a single post here.

Thank you.

[Yavin4]

40. The Old World That You Described Does Exist

It's just not in the U.S. In Europe and Canada, a thriving middle class still does exist. Their populations through true democracy made the decision to not spend trillions of dollars on becoming the world super power. Instead, they spent their nation's wealth on their people.

[anonymous171]

44. America is footing Europe's defense bill. Now that the Empire is waning they are cutting back too.

[unabelladonna]

42. so, what the hell are we going to do to get ourselves

out of this mess. i'm not worried about myself (husband an i are retired and our daughter is grown up and living abroad). i see how younger people are struggling and even those with top notch educations can't find jobs. does anyone have a solution??

[anonymous171]

45. Eliminate the bankers and turn Wall Street into a public library.

The Financial parasites are the cause of our problems. Get rid of them you get rid of the problem.

[anonymous171]

43. I was thinking about getting a degree in engineering or something, then runnning away to Mexico

and never coming back to the state in order to escape my creditors.

[lutherj]

46. Neofeudalism. It's been their gameplan for 30 years.