question about taxes

[patrick t. cakes]

what happens if one doesnt pay them?

say i wanted to follow thoreau's lead and protest
our current wars? whats the worst that can happen to
a citizen who doesnt file a simple W2.

all i own is a little truck. no property, not much in savings either.

?:patriot:

[DrDan]

1. W2? So you have already actually paid taxes on your wages. You just

don't want to file the tax forms?

[patrick t. cakes]

7. filing in general

but i understand your point

[MineralMan]

2. You can go to prison. It's pretty much vanishingly likely, though.

The biggest problem is that your name may get flagged and you could have trouble getting a job if you need one, since it's all tied to your SS#.

If you're in the position you say you're in, you probably don't own any tax at the end of the year, but are probably entitled to a refund. If you have a W2, then you're apparently employed. If you're employed and you have a W2, taxes have already been withheld from your paycheck. The IRS isn't looking for such as yourself, most likely. If you don't file, you'll get no refund.

[hughee99]

3. Exactly, if we're talking employment income (W2),

failure to file will allow them to keep more of your money. They'll probably be a little pissed about the paperwork, but as long as they already have your money (including what they would have given back to you in refund) I doubt much will happen. You may get a "sternly worded letter".

[MineralMan]

4. If you even get a letter. How many people go to prison for failure

to file. Virtually none. Odds are very good that you wouldn't. Still, you'd probably miss that refund.

[hughee99]

17. Maybe failure to pay, but not to file...

but I'd be surprised to see anyone spend a minute in prison for not filing.

[patrick t. cakes]

9. i see. yes i understand there already taken out. what about self employment?

[MineralMan]

18. OK, we obviously are not speaking the same language.

Without knowing what the source of your income is, we can hardly advise you in any reasonable way. You mentioned W-2 forms, so we assumed you had wage income. If you are self-employed, there are many other issues, not the least of which is building your Social Security account.

If you want to keep the information secret, even in a general way, we're not going to be able to answer your questions in any way that will help you.

[Lex]

21. Ever heard of a tax lien on a business?

[gleaner]

5. If you refused to pay your taxes or any portion of ...

your taxes based on anti war convictions and wrote the IRS and told them so, they would try to collect the taxes from you. Tax court ruled that such an action is a "frivolous position" and that it would not be upheld. So IRS would try and secure what they thought you owed and get it from you any way they could.

I'm a Quaker who worked for IRS when there were no wars. I thought somehow that made it better. It didn't. Because there was always revenue earmarked for defense spending, covert operations and a war can flare up at any time. I have MS, they accommodated my disability when few employers would, but it was not a good enough reason. I'm still ashamed of myself. I was needed the work, but I should have held out for something not in conflict with my values. It was not ethical of me to do that. The MS played a large part in why I resigned, but the ethical dilemma I had made for myself would have done it too.

As Quakers we can tell you that there are many who do exactly what you are thinking of doing, but we can't tell you to go ahead and do it because that is against the law. It was a widespread practice during Viet Nam, and resumed as a practice during Iraq. I don't know that it has ever stopped. If you are willing to take that risk, I applaud you. As far as I know they mostly try to get you to pay by securing a return from you. If they cannot, then they prepare a substitute for return, assess your tax based on that and begin collection actions after it has gone through all of their legal processes for appeal. With most non filers they used MFS as your filing status. It is the most unfavorable status. They took the position that since you had not filed and made a declaration of any other status that is the one they had to use. They give you no deductions except the standard deductions for MFS and if you were deemed a "tax protester," which you would have been deemed to be, given your refusal to pay based on a "frivolous position," they could pursue you criminally. I'm not sure what they do anymore, but that is what they did in the 90s. Too bad more people don't have the guts to refuse to pay for war and make a real impact. I'm not telling you to disobey the law but the only thing this government hears is money talking. Good luck whatever you decide to do. You are a good person with a lot of courage.

[patrick t. cakes]

10. this has been great information.

and for the record i don't judge you for your time being employed there.
we all live in the matrix.
i guess thats where im at though too. looking to dislodge myself some how from it.
thanks for sharing some wisdom.

[dysfunctional press]

13. "i don't judge you for your time being employed there." ...why would you?

taxes in general are not a bad thing. it's how we have what level of society/civilization that we do.

[patrick t. cakes]

14. because he/she felt bad about working there

that it went against their convictions, thats why.

[gleaner]

22. You're welcome ...

I'm glad I could help out. I'm not judging myself in the way that you think. It's a Quaker thing. We're not evangelical, but sometimes it helps me to explain why I do things. We live according to certain core values. It is a very individualistic faith. Two Quakers probably won't agree on how to interpret things in exactly the same way, ever. We are encouraged to question. Question ourselves. Seek out the things in ourselves which conflict with the values we have chosen or which have chosen us. One of our core values is pacifism. We live in peace and reach out in peace to others. We try to solve our problems with others by conflict resolution. This has to start within yourself. If you can't solve your own conflicts, you can't reach out to others to try to start a discussion on why peace is better than war, and gentleness is better than violence. There are different shades of belief and resolution on how to live pacifism. For instance some Quakers will not use violence to defend themselves or their family members.

On using violence to save myself, I don't know, but I'm not there yet for family members. I would use violence to save someone I love from being harmed or killed. I do admire people like Tom Fox, my avatar who was captured while trying to help Iraqis attain reparations for the harm Bush was doing to them, and to bring attention to what was happening to the civilians of Iraq who had never harbored terrorists and who really had no say in what Saddam did. They were however subject to an unspeakable level of violence and attrition which Fox and other peace church members from the CPO wanted to bring to the attention of the world. Fox was captured with other members of his group and held hostage. His daughter appeared on TV to say that he had been aware that something like being taken hostage or worse might happen, but he had to go. It was not the first time he had taken such a risk to help others. If the worst happened, he asked her to tell of his wish that no violence be used to try to free him or save his life. It must have been very hard for her to do what she did, but she adhered to his wishes and would not comment when he was beheaded and the video was passed around the world. I would like to think that I would have that much courage to make great sacrifices for what I believed in without costing another human life. I don't know if I do yet, so I continue to question. Questioning is what we are supposed to do.

So to draw it together, I was working in a place which funded "Defense" spending. As long as I did that I could not live in truth, which is another of our values. So I had a dialogue going with myself all the time until after I left and I could finally see clearly how to come to peace with what I had done and why. Then I was able to stop worrying at it and let it go. We all do things we regret and we all wish we could change them, but you can't change the past, so we have to go on from where we find ourselves and be truthful with ourselves and others about what we have learned. Telling the truth is another core value called "plain speak." It is why we affirm instead of swearing oaths. If you swear an oath in court, for instance you are acknowledging that there are two levels of truth. There aren't so we affirm that we are telling the truth as we know it. Later on if you realize you are rationalizing or denying the truth to serve yourself you stop doing it and learn again.

It is not a painful or forced process. My meeting practices silent worship which means we have no clergy. We sit in silence looking into ourselves and hoping that we can feel the God within us leading us to what we need to be doing to grow in our lives and come nearer to living in kindness and leaving only a small footprint upon the earth. We discuss what we feel needs changing in society, but we don't seek power. We are in the world but not of it. It may not seem so, but it is a very peaceful and nourishing dynamic. We recognize that it is not right for everyone. People who need us will find us. Otherwise they have their own truth which is equal in value to ours, just as people and cultures are equal to each other in our eyes. Everyone has a piece of the truth. No one has the whole truth. We need to learn that from each other and maybe someday we will understand ourselves, each other, and our global community a little better.

Any motion that you take, even if it is having the thoughts we are discussing from your post is motion. Ideas move swiftly and often translate into something more tangible to improve the world we live in. If others reading what you wrote get the same idea, then you have done something better than you knew.

I'm not preaching at you, really. I don't like it when people do that to me. I'm just trying to explain that what I am doing and thinking about myself is not harsh and unbending or painful. It is part of a growth process I have chosen freely and have grown very attached to. ;)

[quaker bill]

16. Some Quakers

refuse income or seek to minimize income to the point where they owe no or minimal taxes. I do not. I have a daughter in college.

Some of my income undoubtedly goes to support wars and the preparations for war. I work in a position where any significant willful infraction of the law would promptly leave me unemployed and possibly without pension, war tax resistance is not an option. On the other hand, I get to enforce environmental law for a living, collect substantial penalties from violators, and have them spent buying conservation lands, so from my perspective, it is almost a wash.

Living in good accord with Quaker principles is difficult in these times.

[gleaner]

23. You're living well, quaker bill ...

Not everyone has the same leading. This is yours. You are living in good accord with Quaker principles. You are doing good work for many people and for your family. There is not a thing wrong with what you are doing. We all see things differently, and that is not a bad thing. The more diversity we experience the more we learn and grow. That can only be an improvement.

A lot of Quakers live minimally because they are seeking humility and simplicity the best way that they can. I had friends during Viet Nam who held back a portion of their taxes every year. Every year the IRS would confiscate their car and sell it. They always picked and drove older cars because they didn't earn much. They were college students and just beginning.

When I mentioned this to my manager in passing when I first went to work for IRS it was "whisk" into her office and the third degree.;) I got whacked with the Code of Conduct which was draconian and told never to mention that I knew people who did this again. I wouldn't promise them that. My friends/Friends didn't concern them. So we coexisted the manager and I. I did my work and she did hers and over time we became friends. Sometimes it works that way. Other times it doesn't in which case my job dilemma would have been solved instantly.;)

[quaker bill]

25. The only challenge

I routinely face is the "not swearing of oaths", as many cases I am involved in are resolved through litigation. This is generally accomodated by having counsel inform the judge up front. They then inform the clerk to be sure to use the "swear or affirm" language.

Of course, working for republicans is challenging, but that would be true in any case.

Quakers are rather a rare bird in the Southeast, where I live. Most folks here confuse us with the Amish or Mennonites.

[gleaner]

26. It's a bit easier in California ........

There are more of us here I think and the silent meetings encourage you to promote your own spiritual growth. They will answer any question you have, but you have to ask it. They don't challenge you. They make themselves very visible through vigils and outreach. They are also performing same sex marriages despite the fact that they are against state law. It is the right thing to do, and hopefully state law will catch up.

I understand about the Amish and Mennonites. ;) A very dear friend/Friend who was in her 90s told me once that she felt a lot of the time that when she told people about being a Quaker they would try to picture her wearing the old fashioned bonnets that Quaker women used to wear. She died in 2008. I miss her very much.

The affirming can be sticky. When I went to work for IRS, I had to take a loyalty oath. We finally compromised on swear or affirm as you do. When they asked me if I had ever tried to overthrow the government by force or subversion, though, I couldn't resist asking them if that was a multiple choice question or if I could pick both. That nearly ended my brilliant career right then, but fortunately on of the Personnel Technicians had a sense of humor and she told them to let me be. My "bad mouth" would get me in trouble sooner or later. When I was walking out she motioned me back, pointed and said as firmly as she could, "You behave yourself." I said, "I affirm that I will." Fortunately that was under Democrats. If it had been Republicans I would never have had an ethical dilemma to ponder.;)

I think the fact that you can work with them and work well, makes you a better Quaker and a more efficient advocate than you know. I think you are admirable. Keep up the good work.

[customerserviceguy]

19. That's true

Back when I was working in the title insurance industry in Seattle in the late 1970's, I saw tax liens filed against people for the piddly little amounts of Federal telephone tax they refused to pay. And this was long after we had figured out that Vietnam was a losing cause.

[Skink]

6. You might get a letter.

I got a letter when I forgot to send in form 8053l after filing and having my return accepted by the IRS. That is if you use turbo tax and they don't have your previous return on file the IRS requires a signature. I recomend turbo tax for anyone that would otherwise file a 1040. It only took 10 minutes this year and my return covered feb. rent.

[OllieLotte]

8. Patty: Do yourself a favor - pay whatever taxes you owe.

[patrick t. cakes]

12. if they were used in some fashion

i could be proud of, perhaps, but i dont think
i cant be a money shitting automaton for the power elite
much longer.

my money kills people.

[dysfunctional press]

11. what does your income consist of...?

if you get a paycheck- your taxes are already taken out.

if you have a refund coming and don't file- nothing much will happen.
if you owe and don't pay- you may or may not get caught, depending a lot on how much you might owe.

[davsand]

15. If you refuse to file and they owe you a refund you are GIVING them that money.

Not exactly an effective way to protest the use of your tax money, I'd say.

Maybe you should consider starting a public movement to give tax refunds to anti-war or anti violence campaign. THAT way you are still making a point and depriving them of any more of your money--with the added bonus that they would have nothing legal to hold over your head.


Good luck.



Laura

[Lex]

20. You've already paid them

if you're getting a W2.

If you owe taxes and don't pay them, and the IRS slaps a lien on your wages, then a portion of everything you make in the future, until what you owed is caught up, can be garnished from your wages. So it's taken out of your paycheck before it even gets to you.

[gleaner]

24. They also slap a lien on bank accounts ...

personal property or businesses. The people who make this choice know that. It would not be my choice because after they take what you owe they can penalize you up the yin yang. But if someone else chooses to do it knowing the risks and the consequences it is no more futile than civil disobedience that takes you to a place where you know you are going to get arrested but you have to make the statement you are making by doing so. I admire the courage it takes to make a stand it is not easy. Ironically getting hit and not hitting back is over faster. It hurts, but it is quick.

[DailyGrind51]

27. Do yourself a big favor and file, each year, even if it makes you sick to do so.