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20score Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-10-10 06:16 PM
Original message
Ex-Friends and Politics
Edited on Wed Feb-10-10 06:59 PM by 20score
So many people that I’ve known for years have changed during the twenty-first century. And not for the better. Some have gone from being nice people with a sense of right and wrong, that included at least a verbal commitment to social justice, to being a pro-torture, anti-science bigot that is willing to trash whatever part of the Constitution that their favorite propagandist tells him or her is now anti-American. And I am fairly certain that my experience, socially, is not unique in this respect.

Most seemed to have lost any ability they used to have to suss out obvious hypocrisy or evident contradictions. Fiscal conservatives that were just fine with tax cuts for the wealthy, wars on credit and corporations with U.S. contracts not paying taxes, which lead to massive deficits, are now fiscal conservatives again. They become especially angry if someone is actually helped with the money being spent. During the pre-Bush era when a conversation about the harsh punishments of the 19th century came up, my friends at the time were indignant at such cruelty. They are now just fine with a man in California being put in prison for life, for the crime of shoplifting. These same people despised Nixon for spying on Americans and were rightly disdainful of the East German Stasi for spying on their citizens. Now their answer to criticism of Bush for by-passing the Constitution and spying on Americans is, “well, if you don’t have anything to hide” or “we have to catch terrorists and we can’t let them know what we’re doing.” (Of course, they are silent about letting bin Laden and the actual perpetrators of the 9-11 terrorist attacks go free.) They were acutely aware of despots using scapegoats to distract people and consolidate their power by misdirecting real anger at easy and unpopular targets. Now they are sure that illegal immigrants crashed the economy and some unnamed liberals spent all our money. After 9/11/2001, a switch was flipped in the heads of some people and thinking clearly was no longer possible. Talking with some of these ex-friends is now akin to talking to those who believe the earth is only 6,000 years old.

Being a propagandist, or a pundit with no scruples, if you will, must be the easiest job in the history of the planet. Being wrong, even to the point of being ludicrous and insultingly moronic - take Freedom Fries for example – is never used as a mark against them. They have taken Edward Bernays’ formula of appealing to emotions instead of intellect and boiled it down to, “say whatever.” The people watching/listening will buy it. And it seems they’re right. One person that I hadn’t spoken to in twenty-five years quotes O’Reilly and Palin to me about how “You don’t understand how real Americans think because you don’t care about the ‘fly over parts’ - that’s real America!” We both live in LA, but that seems to have escaped him.

When one entire political party is devoted to pollution and shrinking the middle class as quickly as possible, when tens of millions of people think being smart is a negative for a president, it’s hard to be optimistic. It also doesn’t help when the “Reality Based” party is losing ground to those that are fighting for the bankers and the energy companies. I’ve seen it happen first hand too often.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-10-10 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. None of my former friends are still friends
Everyone I know has been taken in by this shit.

I'm still trying to figure out what can make a whole country go mad at once.
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ben_thayer Donating Member (344 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-10-10 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Ask the Germans... EOM
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-10-10 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Yeah, I'm aware of the precedent
But first, I don't really know how they were taken in.

Second, they had it pretty bad at the time Hitler was rising to power. They were probably desperate.

America, on the other hand, started this shit at the tail end of the best economy we'd ever had. We had no reason to be desperate ... then.
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ChicagoSuz219 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-10-10 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. EOM?
What does that mean?
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-10-10 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. DU Glossary:
Edited on Wed Feb-10-10 07:07 PM by yowzayowzayowza
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ChicagoSuz219 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-10-10 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Thanks! I bookmarked it.
I think my favorite is "Pickles." LOL
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20score Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
24. Me too.
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KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-10-10 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. I've lost a big chunk of my friends and most of my family over this.
Sounds harsh, but its the truth. I cannot stand to be around them anymore. I even tried resisting every urge I had to make a political comment, but it doesn't stop them - especially when they have grown to take such joy in trying to needling you into an argument.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-10-10 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. It's either socialize with these people or be very, very lonely.
Due to economic, health and geographical considerations, I have no choice.

Today I am feeling especially lonely and alienated. On such days I try to figure out what to do about my crazy family, my isolation, my lack of funds, but I can't think of anything that would work. So I just repress those feelings as best I can and try to go on.

Also, what the fuck am I doing here? If I stay informed, it just makes dealing with the fundies and right-wingers that much harder. Since I don't have a choice in the matter, I think it would be better for my health to put my head in the sand.

But I still feel alone.

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ChicagoSuz219 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-10-10 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. You're not alone...
I just refuse to discuss politics with them. We talk about movies, grandchildren, travel, health (issues, NOT care), etc. If they pursue it, I take a page from the President & just agree to disagree.

When I want to discuss politics, I come here or go to HuffPost.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-10-10 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. Thanks. I think part of the problem is feeling starved for intellectual conversation.
Edited on Wed Feb-10-10 09:44 PM by Ladyhawk
No one I know is much good at getting past, "Crazy weather we're havin', ain't it?"

A really strange thing happened two nights ago, though. My entire nuclear family plus Grandma gathered to eat at a restaurant and for the very first time I can remember, every single one of them listened to me with respect for quite some time as I talked about mental illness.

My brother is getting a divorce. I believe his current wife is manic-depressive. I correctly diagnosed his first wife as having narcissistic and histrionic personality disorders. After a psychologist diagnosed the same thing, my brother's first wife tried to sue the psychologist.

Of course, I don't know for certain my brother's current wife is bipolar, but she is showing a lot of the classic symptoms. And of course, she won't see a professional...not that either of our county's psychiatrists is worth a shit in the ocean, anyway. Still, my brother has some money and could afford to take her to see someone competent.

I'm not a professional, but I have some experience with mental illnesses and I've done a lot of reading. I know enough to say she should see a doctor. Good luck getting mental health care in this backwater county.

Now, if only my family would listen to me on other issues. I guess that's too much to ask.
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ChicagoSuz219 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-10-10 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. It's a start...
...maybe you, or someone in the family, can talk to your brother about it. If she is bipolar, it's probably chemical & there are ways of managing it. Explain it doesn't mean she's 'crazy.' Her personal physician may even be able to help her or, at least, point her in the right direction.

It won't get better by itself.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. I know that, but she won't seek help and it's out of my hands. :( nt
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ChicagoSuz219 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Then, all you can do...
...is let your brother know you're there if he needs you.

I'll keep a good thought for you all.
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Cosmocat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
31. it is hard ... Social clubs, civic groups ...
I am a younger person who is pretty active in social service groups and community organizations ...

A LOT of older folks who have done a lot of good over the years, and still are roll up their sleeves and get things done hands on in the community, in their 70s in these organizations ...

In fact of matter, how they lives their lives, they are "liberal." The accept people for what they are, they are giving, they care ...

But, they are full out "conservatives" with their national political views. I have to just smile and eat snot when they make snarky comments about BO and global warming, or an e-mail gets passed around about how HCR was going to create death panels.

The funny thing is, they respect me, and have befriend me, and actually supported my countywide campaign that I lost and my school board campaign that I won ... They know I am completely opposite of them on the big issues, but as long as I just bite my lip and let respect their views on it, it does not hurt us other than me having to smash things from time to time ... That is one of the hallmarks of it in a more "conservative" area, they get to say what is on their mind and you just have to suffer it, you have to watch what you say ...

But, again, local and even state politics, we are on the same page a lot more than not, and there is not the complete indignation when we disagree on a local or state issue that you have with national politics ... If they know you, respect you, know you are good people and that you are mostly on the same page, they can accept some difference at the local or state level ...

It helps me to not overcharacterize the butthats who turn a nickle propogating the crape, or the tea bagger types ... There are A LOT of good people, GOOD people, who vote R ... Just have to get past it ...

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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
34. Damn Ladyhawk - I'm really very sorry for how poorly you're feeling - I get that way too
I live in a way red state and it gets damn lonely and depressing to see those you love and care about swallow hook-line-and-sinker the very ideology that brings them to harm every day.

You are not alone, and yes, I've thought the same sometimes, that it would be so much easier to just retreat into disengagement. I guess it's not in our natures.

Please know that you are not alone, and while your friends here are often faceless and distant, they are very real.

:hug:
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FLyellowdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-10-10 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
8. Sometimes I feel the same.
I'm still somewhat amazed that we have anything EXCEPT rightwing fundamentalists in office anywhere. Most of my friends...easily over 80%... are Republican/TeaPartiers/ReligiousRight/FearMongers and sometimes it's more than I can take. But since I am a loner anyway, I just keep on keeping on. I know that I can't discuss politics and/or religious doctrine with them so I don't even try anymore. I will from time to time try to reeducate them via replying to stupid, lie-filled emails, but that's about all.

These people are so afraid of life in general, I think. And fear brings out the worst in most people. Because I don't believe in the hereafter, I know that this life is the only chance we get and it's up to us as a people to make the best of it we can, both for ourselves and for others.

Just thinkin' out loud. :hi:
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timeforpeace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-10-10 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
9. Take heart, Obama may stop fighting for the bankers and the energy companies someday soon.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-10-10 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
11. Reading these threads, I count my lucky stars that I live in a liberal oasis.
I learned early on I only felt at home living in progressive, coastal, metropolitan areas. The people I deal with are almost entirely liberal/progressive. I'm very lucky I don't have to choose between socializing and talking about politics.
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ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-10-10 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
12. I'm glad I just moved to LA.
My poor GF (eventually moving here, but stuck in conservative suburb of IL right now) is surrounded by conservatives. Her boss, a racist, sexist, homophobic Fox News watcher, as well as her coworkers. She bites her tongue so much I'm worried it won't grow back.
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20score Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-10-10 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Well, for her sake I hope she gets here soon.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-10-10 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Wish I could move...eom
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suede1 Donating Member (770 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-10-10 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
13. Very good! k&r!
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20score Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-10-10 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Thanks, Suede1
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suede1 Donating Member (770 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-10-10 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. ;)
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mrs_p Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-10-10 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
19. today, a woman i respect
and genuinely like, joined some crazy right-wing group on facebook. i knew she was a conservative republican, but that just hit it home. i don't understand how she (a scientist) could be that way. i almost de-friended her, but thought that was petty. still, wtf?
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-10-10 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
20. Nothing will ever come between my friends and I. Certainly not politics.
My social circle formed in high school during the 70's, and is as strong now as it was when we were kids getting stoned before the prom. Our love for each other is much to strong to be harmed by ideology.

Ditching lifelong friends because they listen to the wrong radio station will never change the world; it will only make you lonely.
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20score Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-10-10 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Never been lonely, that wasn't the purpose of the post. (Still don't understand all the un-recs.)
Edited on Wed Feb-10-10 10:37 PM by 20score
It's just that some people I had lost touch with, and then reconnected with, have completely changed. It's hard for me to be friends with people who are pro-torture or anti-Constitution, or who are now kind of bigoted.

We all have to make our own decisions, and mine are made on a case by case basis. How good of friends they were/are, how far off the deep end they've gone, how good of people they are in other respects, etc.
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suede1 Donating Member (770 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #20
30. I didn't get the impression...
20Score ditched life long friends, rather that some of those he has reconnected with and he have grown apart enough that they couldn't get back the same level of friendship.

Also, I didn't read this as being about friendships so much as the country in general and how extreme some people have gone, how far from what they once stood for.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 03:51 AM
Response to Original message
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. I'll check into that. I have a lot in common with the Old Right
and nothing in common with the Neoconservatives.
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suede1 Donating Member (770 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
29. Kick
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guitar man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
32. I've learned to live with the differences
Being in Oklahoma, if I tossed every friend I have over politics I'd be all alone pretty quick. There are a couple I had to get away from because they just froth in an angry ranting state of rage all the time, but most of us have more in common than not.

And it's really fun to watch someone like my own brother come around like he did in 08. I watched him go from a lifelong repug with a virtual shrine to Reagan on his bookshelf to an awakening to the bullshit and a conversion to an Obama voting Dem.

I won't ditch old friends just because they don't think and vote like me...some will eventually come around, some probably never will. But I can't count the times many of them have been willing to lend me a hand when I was down on my luck and that means a hell of a lot more to me than politics any day.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
33. Life is too short...
to waste on friendships with right wing scumbags
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Perhaps if you live in a liberal hamlet and you're a young pup with 387 FB "friends"
But for many of us in the real world, life is not so simple.
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AndrewP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Unfortunately, you are 100% correct on that
I live in a red state and work for red state types.

I have no choice but to get along to get along, so to speak.

I just have to say my piece on sites like this.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Yup.
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20score Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
37. For clarification because there were so many un-recs to an innocuous post:
I am not making a judgment on what type of friends anyone should have. That's a personal decision, and frankly, it's none of my business and I really don't care. It was a personal observation I made that many have changed, and extrapolated from that too many people in the country have bought into the BS.

That's all.
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