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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 09:12 AM
Original message
CPAC - a violent christian mob, still under construction
Here's today's slice of life . . . . and it ain't pretty.

The FFR has been buying billboard time, and using the opportunity to state the obvious: Not believing in a make believe god is OK. Really. It is. Another DUer mentioned this earlier today:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7761561
Take a look at that post. It should scare you. Who exactly hates us for our freedoms?

Those fun and cute atheist billboards are being attacked in the press, even disfigured and tagged by christian thugs. All that proves is that despite being in the majority in this country, christians are so scared of the truth getting out that they must attack anyone who questions their faith or their faith's integrity. The real problem for them is not that Pi does not equal 3, nor that whales really are not large fish, nor even that some biblical mythical character failed to make the sun stand still. The real problem is this (and they are painfully aware of it). If they fail to brainwash their spawn early and often, their children risk being afflicted with rational thinking. Once that happens, christianity is dead.

Then again, perhaps not. Take CPAC.
Please.


Bob Barr, a former candidate for president (2008), used to be a Republican. Say what you like about him, unlike many others on the right, Barr's word was good, and while he always stood by his convictions, he also had the reputation of being open to honest discussions, ideas and compromise. Barr was never the opportunist, but rather, he committed the unforgivable sin (for the GOP) of being a thinker. A current congressman from Illinois once told me that of all of today's GOPers, Barr was unique, in that his word was good, his heart was human, and his integrity was without question (even if his policies were wrong).

Barr sat before CPAC and committed yet another sin. He called for the rule of law, and worst of all, he stated what is so obvious to anyone (at least those who do not put their bible ahead of our constitution). According to Barr (and most legal and military scholars) waterboarding is torture.

For making this keen statement of fact, Barr was booed by CPAC participants. http://rawstory.com/2010/02/bob-barr-shouted-down-cpac/

I confess to having watched CSpin's coverage of CPAC as often as I could stand it. That translated to about 23 minutes in every 24 hour cycle, with the largest time block being about 4 straight minutes. Even that small amount of dipping a mental toe into those dangerous and dark waters got my blood close to the boiling point. My brief observations, together with news stories from Wall Street Urinal, NYT, and some liberal blogs brave enough to send potential POWs to the conference have led me to the following conclusion:

For the most part, the GOP is brain dead. The only segment of the party which has even a glimmer of energy or the slightest spark of activism is that segment we know as CPAC - the ultraconservatives, the christian, anti-tax, pro-war, pro-torture faction that seems to control the entire party.

If you are not a peculiar brand of christian, if you are not pro war, if you think that waterboarding is torture, then you are not welcome in the new and Improved CPAC, and as a result, you are probably not welcome in the GOP.

One time while traveling through Europe, I observed an angry group of people become a wild, out of control, violent mob. It is a scary thing, something you really want to avoid. I detected signs of similar behavior several times on this side of the Atlantic pond, first, during Sarah Palin rallies, when white racists came close to demanding the lynching of then Candidate Obama. If anything, her fans have become even more energized and convinced that we progressives are traitors and that Obama is America's enemy. I next noticed this lack of restraint last August, when members of the Congress were verbally attacked, sometimes by paid political activists sent by Big Insurance, but just as often, by some very angry, very misguided people whose knowledge base comes solely from conservative talk radio. More recently, this potential for violence exhibited itself in that pathetic Tea Bagger conference, a gathering of 600 misinformed, angry, and misguided angry christians. The last few days of CPAC confirmed that this conservative, christian collection of morans not only condones ever more energetic protests, but would not mind if these protests would take that final step, and turn into mob violence.

In that respect, I find it easy to lump these three groups together, at least on certain issues. CPAC, Tea Baggers, and Palin's most energetic supporters. They hate blacks. They hate liberals. They hate Obama. If you do not believe in their perverse view of christianity, you are anti-american. They have certain loves, too. They love tax cuts. War. Torture. Teaching the bible in publick sckules. Because ever since our nations four fathers were christian, it is their duty to force their religious rules on the rest of us, like it or not. They also seem to be attracted by power, violence, and control over others' lives.

Today's CPAC seems to control the GOP's current direction. It also seems that the Tea Baggers have a symbiotic relationship with CPAC.

In sheer numbers, both CPAC and the Tea Bagger movement add up to a very small, demented, but very energetic segment of America. While their numbers are small, their voices are extremely loud. For reasons I won't get into here, today's MSM does its best to promote both CPAC and the Tea Baggers. (on the other hand, Netroot conventions, with many more attendees, are studiously ignored, or mentioned with scorn and disdain)

One burning question that comes up. WHY? Why are CPAC and Tea Baggers so well funded? Why is the MSM fixated on covering them so politely and without criticism? Why is their message not being attacked by rational people? Why are these groups moving us ever closer to mob rule, violence and the potential destruction of society? As usual, the best way to find an answer is to follow the money.

OK. Let's follow the money trail. Dick Armey's billionaires and corporate sponsors invested millions to create and push forward the Tea Bagger concept. CPAC's biggest supporters tend to come from the same motley crew of conservative christians. Again, WHY? It should be obvious to everyone that the only logical result of CPAC conferences and Tea Baggers' meetings will eventually be a riot. One riot can easily lead to many across the country, as people fed up with the status quo grab a bat, a broom or even a gun and take to the streets. If you think a small private plane hitting an IRS office is bad, you haven't seen anything yet.

Throughout history, whenever a society is threatened with mobs, riots or internal violence, the most frequent response is martial law. Except, these days, our national guard and our military reserves are too busy acting as targets for unhappy Iraqis and Afghans, whose nations we still occupy. Who can they call on to enforce martial law, to stop riots, and to control unruly crowds?

I won't answer that directly. Instead, chew on this fact. According to the Wall Street Urinal, the fastest growing domestic businesses, those companies which are hiring people at an ever increasing rate are the same companies that provide civilian security in both Afghanistan and Iraq. We used to call one of those companies Blackwater. Heavily armed, with tanks, armor, helicopters, and the most powerful guns made, these private armies are now large enough to occupy a small country by themselves.

If riots break out, how long will it be until Xi and other mercenaries are hired to take control of our streets?
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
1. For those who missed it, another sign of the times:
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Kalyke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
2. Why are atheists so hateful?
First, you can believe anything you want or don't want to believe in, but you don't have to look down your nose at believers and call our God/Allah/Yahweh, etc. "make-believe."

Some liberal Christians might be defacing some of these billboards because the billboards show as much tolerance for others as Pat Robertson at a Gay Pride parade.

:eyes:
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I see. So YOU can broadbrush with "Why are atheists so hateful?". Got it.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I suspect that he/she
hasn't seen any of the FFR billboards. They are cute. Respectful. Polite. And accurate.

only in the minds of a christian is such a message hateful.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. For some Christians, any suggestion that they may be wrong
about their beliefs is considered hateful. It's not just atheism. They have no respect for any religion that does not accept their own dogma. Some Christians, I repeat.

Apparently, there is one such Christian in this thread. There is nothing hateful in any of those billboards. Just a statement that some people don't believe in deities and another statement that says that one needed believe in a deity to be a good person.

Both are positive, true statements without any slurring of any religion. Yet, they are seen as hateful by some followers of Christianity. Something's hateful, for sure.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. I completely agree.
But I must also admit that I have a barely contained disdain of organized religions, and christianity in particular. Except for the flu virus, an argument can be made that christians caused for death on this poor earth than any other cause.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. You're right, but nothing about these billboards has anything
to do with that, and shouldn't. That's another issue altogether, and has to be approached in another way.
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. No...it's more the suggestions that we're psychotic, idiotic thugs
that tend to not win over our warmest affections on DU. I don't care if someone says "they're wrong, all they believe is wrong." I don't really enjoy seeing "they are enemies to society and child abusers and I avoid doing business with them at all costs and all they want to do is control people they're bullies and" on and on. The record is clearly broken at this point.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. OK, so clean up after your own then.
that would be a good step.

However, given past history, I doubt that will occur.

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Political_Junkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. I agree.
It's one thing to say it's o.k. to be an atheist, but some of the messages I've seen on these billboards are quite insulting to believers. Not exactly the way to win hearts and minds.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Hmph! You should see the things Christians say about
non-believers. For pete's sake. We had a freaking President of the United States who said that atheists could not be good Americans.

Look to your own house before criticizing the houses of others, please.
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Political_Junkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. Don't assume what house I belong to.
I think both sides need to chill out. You can see it right here on DU all the time. All I'm talking about is respecting differences. There is no need for either side to disparage people who don't believe the way they do.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Name one liberal group calling for the death or lynching of an opponent.
Just one.

Name one group of agnostics or atheists who demands that people of faith must change their beliefs.

Unfortunately, there is a war beginning to start. The conservative christians want to force their beliefs down our throats. (see Kentucky and bible studies in public schools). For them, real science constitutes an attack on their faith. If anything, science is the most apolitical body of study on earth. So why does it anger so many on the right? Why are they compelled to attack it, to rid the minds of their spawn of any rational, scientific thought?

The answer is sad. Because in the face of science, the very foundation of their faith becomes obvious. A collection of stolen fairy tales, often edited and rewritten for political purposes. (see Council of Trent, a great example of politics and religion mixing in the worst possible way).

A person of faith is told that he/she must set aside logic and reason, and trust only the written word of their god. Down that path lays madness, or at least irrational behavior.
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Political_Junkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. I hope you don't think
I was advocating for conservative christians, because I am neither conservative nor christian. I agree with your above statement of about the deaths left in the wake of the christian church's charge through history. Not just christians either, far too much death in the name of organized religion.
What I was trying to say, perhaps badly, is that those of us here on DU, are supposed to be on the same side, but as soon as religion or lack of religion is mentioned people start tearing each other apart. Case in point, Mineral Man above, who is one of my favorite posters, telling me to look to my own house. My house is not with any organized religion. My house is with humans everywhere just trying to get through life believing whatever makes them feel good. No one on either side needs to tell the other side that they're stupid for believing the way they do. We all see the world through our own eyes and that's the way it should be.
As to the Atheist billboards the only one I saw anything wrong with was the religion=fairy tales one, which could offend some people. The rest I thought were quite respectful.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. well put. Thanks.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. I rarely can remember the political philosophies or religions of
posters by name. My comment was directed at your defense of someone who called atheists, in general, hateful. We're not, most of the time, or at least most of us aren't. Even the billboard you referenced is not hateful, just provocative. I'm not a billboard kind of person, anyhow, but both sides seem to think communicating with them is appropriate.

Yes, I'm a little defensive when it comes to my disbelief. There have been laws in this country trying to prohibit atheists from holding any public position. Some are still on the books, even though they can no longer be enforced. Their very existence tells me a great deal.

I don't proselytize for atheism. There would be no point. I don't care what anyone believes, as long as they don't use their beliefs to harm anyone in any way. Trouble is, there are some in the Christian community who do seek to harm others because of their beliefs. Sadly, that does cause me to have to defend my non-belief and the different beliefs of others who are not Christians. It's annoying to have to do that in a nation that supposedly champions freedom of religion. Very annoying.
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Political_Junkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. I'm sorry that you thought
I was defending the person who called atheists hateful. I've been sick all weekend and not thinking clearly. I somehow missed that part of the post and was responding only to the billboard comment, which I'll get to. So, here I am in a fevered haze trying to figure out how I managed to piss everybody off! LOL, duh.
As to the billboard that compares religion to fairy tales. There are two things that I think we can all agree on:
1. Life is rough and whatever helps us get through it is a goodness, so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.
2. Our beliefs, whatever they may be, help us to define ourselves and to understand our world.
That being said, for anyone who does have religious beliefs, that billboard is attacking their whole worldview, their reality, as well as, one of the only comforts that they have in this life. That is why I see it as more than just provocative, not hateful, but still not quite cool.
Again, my apologies for posting without thoroughly reading. :blush:
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. You agree that atheists are hateful. Isn't that lovely.
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Political_Junkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. I was agreeing to the
point they were making about why some christians would deface the billboards. I don't believe that atheists are hateful. There are good and bad in every group.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. I have no doubt that there are crazies who happen to be agnostic/atheist
But, I simply cannot picture a group of Dawkins fans holding a congress, getting wild and angry, and heading out to assassinate a president simply because he believes in a god.

On the right, especially the christian right, we have people praying for Obama to fail, we have texan preachers praying for Obama to get sick and die, we have supporters of Sarah Palin carrying loaded weapons not far from where the president will give a speech, and we have entire state legislatures worrying that secular educations will make their children too rational, so they vote to start the bible indoctrination early and often. In public schools.

Want to bet that saying god does not exist, or accurately describing the tortured path taken by biblical translations (Every word is inerrant? yeah, and I am a world class speedskater, ice dancer, and luge racer, with PHD in astrophysics, chemistry, archeology and nuclear science) will result in a student flunking the bible class?

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Political_Junkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Oh, I agree.
Those people are worse than anything I've seen in this country so far. They scare the hell out of me, but I don't consider them christians anyway. They can call themselves christians if they want, but that don't make it so. I've known some good christians, these people are nothing like them.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I do believe that we agree.
One of the finer people I know is a jesuit priest. Love to play chess with him, while I feed him sweet chocolate and brandy. (he tends to talk a bit)
the guy speaks 12 languages fluently, and spent time in the Jesuit leadership. His ability to justify something is truly amazing.

On the other hand, if someone is in need, he's right there.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Why should atheists not say that those deities are bogus?
Edited on Sun Feb-21-10 09:45 AM by MineralMan
That is our belief. Those who believe in deities are certainly outspoken enough about the "reality" of those deities.

We will say what we think. You are saying what you think. Ain't America great?
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
28. Mea Culpa. I replied to the wrong message. So sorry.
I intended to reply to "Why are atheists so hateful?"

For the record, I am not a true believer in anything because I believe in keeping my options open, remaining in a state of healthy skepticism until I have personal experience with anything. I do not call myself an atheist, but I understand your point of view and agree with a lot of it. I dated an extremely rational physicist for several years, and listened to his various rants. But when I was sitting in a theater with him and I "got it" when my daughter was in an accident a thousand miles away, he drank more cognac than usual when in my presence for a long time after that.

"There are more things in Heaven and on Earth, Horatio ......"

May all the Gods on Mt. Olympus send you blessings (or thunderbolts)! :)
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
24. Believers in what? A lot of "Thou shalt nots" are out of vogue ...
... among "believers." That word covers a multitude of sins, and your post seems not to acknowledge the real danger of mob mentality, regardless of what philosophy it is based upon.

Anger and ignorance are well and truly wed in these "Christian" groups that are becoming much more vocal. They are holding, in microcosm, their own versions of the Nuremberg rallies. Big oaks from little hateful acorns grow.
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-22-10 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
31. How did I know you'd come down on "this" side of the issue!
And to accuse of us of being "hateful" to boot.

How typical.

Tesha
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
9. Bob Barr recognized years ago that the conservative movement
had dark tendencies. He tends to stand his ground.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. He saw it at CPAC. Those boos said a lot about the membership.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
25. K&R This OP (opus?) is a perfect description of a prelude to our own Kristallnacht!
Edited on Sun Feb-21-10 06:45 PM by puebloknot
Too many Progressives don't want to acknowledge the danger inherent in these groups. They stay in their ivory towers and do not deign to even think about such low creatures, such low ideas. The intellectuals in Europe did that, too, in the 1930s.

Some of the population remember how that all turned out. Too many of our citizens think the Civil War happened in the 1940s. That's what is really scary! There's just enough sophomoric "Christian" knowledge in their thick heads to make them think they know what is happening because they heard it in church and the preacher delivering such drivel must be smarter than they are. And often the preacher is smarter, which is terrifying!

Been there, done that, born into a Fundie family, but my father was fighting Hitler when I was in my two-year-old crib, and perhaps by osmosis or psychic communication with him, I was the different, black sheep in my Texas family. Still am. I'm sweating blood over where we're headed; they're singing hymns and ostracizing me because I read books (other than "The Holy Bible")!

In an attempt to stay in the Now, I make soup and knit sweaters. And spend a lot of time watching the slow motion movie of my country's ultimate demise. And I do everything I can to stay hopeful because every nightmare has its end. Doesn't it?
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Yuppers
Every nightmare has it's end. Fer sure.

This, too, shall pass.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-21-10 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. solid as a stool, or
liquid, or
(as it most likely deserves)
as a gas?
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
32. Thank you for this OP. n/t
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