To Tom Friedman and Paul Otellini from an unemployed Arizonan: STFU

[Hello_Kitty]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/03/opinion/03friedman.html?em

These local incentives matter because smart, skilled labor is everywhere now. Intel can thrive today — not just survive, but thrive — and never hire another American. Asked if his company was being held back by weak science and math education in America’s K-12 schools, Otellini explained:

“As a citizen, I hate it. As a global employer, I have the luxury of hiring the best engineers anywhere on earth. If I can’t get them out of M.I.T., I’ll get them out of Tsing Hua” — Beijing’s M.I.T.

Well isn't that special?

Intel maintains large manufacturing facilities in Arizona. For over 20 years AZ has gone out of its way to provide the company with a welcoming climate. We've given them choice land and water (semiconductor manufacturing uses a ginormous amount) and a plethora of tax breaks. One such break was a thing called Sales Factor Reform. In 2005, Intel threatened to move a massive plant expansion to Oregon or overseas if Arizona didn't restructure corporate sales taxes for manufacturing plants over a certain size (basically, Intel) such that their state sales tax burden was reduced over 95%. Intel used to pay a minuscule percentage on every chip manufactured in AZ sold anywhere in the world. The legislation changed the formula so that Intel only paid taxes on chips sold in Arizona. That change is costing our state $100 million for the period that the law is in effect. The threat that Intel would move was bullshit on its face because the plans were made years in advance and contracts were set but they caved in anyway. Lobbyists for Intel have also pleaded with our state lege to reduce a host of taxes that affect rich people and corporations.

Arizona has the highest per-capita deficit in the nation and our schools are facing massive cuts, despite already being among the lowest funded in the nation. Every state agency is facing massive cuts. I expect that in the near future Intel will decide to close up shop in AZ because, well, our schools and infrastructure suck. He and former Intel chief Craig Barrett are constantly bleating about the need for more foreign visas, since American, and especially Arizonan, kids suck at math and science. When I worked there I remember how they used to try to get employees to join their PAC. The PAC's priorities were things like tort reform, protection from anti-trust suits, union-busting, and preventing having to report stock options as expenses.

Craig Barrett has a really nice mansion in Scottsdale, BTW. Don't know what kind of digs Otellini has, but I'm sure they're swell too. Friedman's crib is legendary.

[HeresyLives]

1. Well, I hope that makes you feel better,

but it won't change reality one iota.

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[HeresyLives]

7. Well then you'd know the world moves on,

and things change, whether you like the changes or not.

And believing in old ideologies from the 30's won't change it either.

[Hello_Kitty]

8. LOL. Yet free traders will marshal 19th century economic theories when it suits them.

"Comparative advantage" is straight outta the 1800s.

[HeresyLives]

10. The world has been free trading for thousands of years.

And that's not likely to change anytime soon, so you'll just have to get used to it.

[Hello_Kitty]

12. So I guess the world hasn't moved on then.

Seriously, dude, pick a position.

[HeresyLives]

14. Yeah it did . You're typing on it.

You watch it live on TV. You can fly to it within hours

The world has changed a lot since Rome. Altho I'll admit you're making the same mistakes they did.

[Hello_Kitty]

17. So is Friedman.

Rome thought outsourcing labor was a crackerjack idea too.

[HeresyLives]

19. LOL no, Rome thot the opposite.

Rome was comfy, so Rome hid behind walls. Rome fought to keep the status quo. Rome retreated into itself. Rome died.

[Hannah Bell]

22. sure, rome hid behind walls. but somehow managed to conquer most of the known world.

your historical knowledge is right up there with your economic knowledge.

[HeresyLives]

23. Don't confuse the time line please.

Rome certainly conquered a lot, and then ran into imperial overstretch, trouble with a religious cult at home, corrupt leaders, and a failing economy.

So they went home and slammed the doors, pulled up the drawbridge and rested on their laurels

And we all know how that turned out.

[Hannah Bell]

25. pap & comic book claptrap: what about "empire" don't you get?

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[HeresyLives]

33. Like i said, don't fantasize.

[Hello_Kitty]

26. Rome died because it didn't employ its own citizens.

It was more expedient to the ruling class to find cheaper workers (or slaves) elsewhere.

The system you're defending is supply side economics. You're basically telling Americans and other First World countries to work harder for less money. The problem is that less money in workers' pockets means less money being circulated in the economy. A five year old can figure this out yet you think that magical free market Milton Friedman fairy dust will make it not so.

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[Hello_Kitty]

39. Do tell us about that economic system.

And don't forget to explain how they didn't outsource labor and how it didn't accrue wealth to the elites at the top.

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[HeresyLives]

43. Rome had a different system of economics

than we do today.

Small merchants, no huge factories, no stock market, slaves, soldiers, etc.

I'm sure you took this in school?

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[HeresyLives]

49. If you can't leave your old ideology out of it,

and discuss the topic at hand, there's really no need for you to be on this thread at all.

[JVS]

51. Pot, kettle. You're the one who said upthread that the world has been free trading for thousands...

of years.

You need to work smarter on that whole definition of Feudalism and earlier economic systems thing.

[HeresyLives]

52. Yes, it has been.

I'm sure you're not THAT easily confused.

Free trade doesn't require a specific 20th century American economy to work.

[JVS]

53. Please explain how free trade functions in a feudalist economy.

[HeresyLives]

54. ?? Same way as at any other time.

You trade with other countries and cultures.

[JVS]

55. Are you confused? Feudalism is not a market based economic system. Production in that...

system is controlled by a chain of vassalage. How can that be called free trading?

[HeresyLives]

56. LOL no it's not, but they still travelled and traded.

[JVS]

58. So did mercantilists, but it wasn't free trade.

[HeresyLives]

59. Why would mercantilists free trade amongst each other?

Free trade is done between nations and cultures

[JVS]

60. What is your definition of free trading, that it can involve mercantilism?

[HeresyLives]

63. Told you probably 20X by now, that free trade

exists between countries and cultures...they buy things and sell things to people in other countries.

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[JVS]

149. Your telling doesn't make it so. Trade happened with restrictions.

[Hannah Bell]

65. who is this "they" you speak of?

[HeresyLives]

68. No games, please.

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[Hannah Bell]

62. "free" trade? only if your idea of freedom involves shooting it out & going to war

to maintain trade monopolies. Or killing & enslaving people so you can take their stuff & "trade" it.

"Free" trade my svelte ass.


"In the Middle Ages Western European societies were nearly self-sufficient. Actual trade was limited to very few luxury products. Land was the essential source of wealth. Wealth was the source of power, and power was spread among the hierarchy of landlords known as Feudalism"


"The growth of commerce in Western Europe began in the late Middle Ages. Its broad pattern was as follows: The main traffic was the purchase of oriental goods, especially spices, which were much in demand because of the monotony of diets. In exchange for these commodities, rough materials and especially metals from Southern Germany were exported.

The trade balance was not equal, and silver and gold were gradually drained out of Europe. Northern Italian cities retained absolute monopoly of this trade."

[HeresyLives]

66. Yes like it says, trade existed.

[Hannah Bell]

70. "free" trade, i believe you opined. between "cultures" & "countries".

but it wasn't free, & it wasn't between "cultures" and "countries".

[HeresyLives]

74. Yes, exactly what it was.

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[Confusious]

91. Same basic idea. Same basic fall.

I suggest "The rise and fall of the roman empire" I hear it's still one of the best after many years.

United States Corps are selling out to overseas. No good jobs here, no money to buy things, no tax money to collect. The balance of payments go from coming into the United States to flowing out. Nobody wants the dollar, we got 'nothin, down goes The United States.

Rome wasted it's gold on silk and other things from the east. Less money, more inflation, lower standard of living, down went Rome.

It's not that hard to see really. The more complicated it gets, the faster it goes down the tubes ( The more complicated the machine, the more likely it is to break down ). complexity will not save us.

[HeresyLives]

94. No, it's only been discussed dozens of times on here.

And The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire was written in 1776, and is long since outdated.

[Hello_Kitty]

113. But "The Wealth of Nations" will never go out of style, will it?

Cherry picking history, the stock in trade of "free marketeers".

[HeresyLives]

114. LOL did long time ago

[Hello_Kitty]

71. Yep. Sorta what's happening in the US now.

Big multinational companies extort huge tax subsidies from cities and states.

Ruin schools and infrastructure while busting unions and lowering wages through outsourcing and insourcing.

Demand that cities and states foot the bill for innovation, or else.

Having got their last pound of flesh, decide that the American labor market isn't "flexible" enough and move to cheaper friendlier shores.

Blame American workers/consumers for destruction of global economy. Demand more taxes/productivity/spending from them.

Bail the multinational companies out when their idiotic schemes prove to be horrendous failures.

[Hannah Bell]

the parallels are striking, & i nominate you to write an OP on it. seriously.

[Hello_Kitty]

78. I nominate you, Ms. History Major.

:)

[HeresyLives]

80. Rome and the US are very similar.

Imperial overstretch, religious troubles within, debt, corrupt leaders....but no corporations, sorry.

[Hannah Bell]

90. lol. where do you think the word *comes* from?

The Forum of Corporations, or the Piazzale delle Corporazioni, was the principal center of commerce and trade for the Roman Empire mainly during the Age of Augustus.

Located in the major port city of Ostia, this open-air market was essential for Rome as a place of varying and exotic goods from foreign lands. Merchants gathered here to sell anything from grain and shipping services to elephants and giraffes.

Rebuilt in the 2nd century AD, The Forum of Corporations was also representative of the many diverse cultures that made up the Roman Empire. Oil importers, grain importers, rope-makers, and ship builders from corporations spanning across the empire came here to benefit from Ostia’s positioning at the mouth of the Tiber River which easily facilitated the importation and transportation of goods into the empire.

The Piazzale dell Corporazioni was often the home of the offices for approximately 40 guilds. These guilds were religious associations that dealt mainly with grain trade and navigation through Ostia, which served as the main food supply source for Rome. There were six divisions of guilds: Grain Shipping and Related Services, Commerce, Transport, Trades, Civil Service, Cults (Hermansen). The guilds represented a bridge between international and domestic relations through trading, worship and banquets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Forum_of_Corporations.

[HeresyLives]

92. Gosh, first there was no trade at all, yet there it is,

and now you're trying to make it into GM and GE and US steel and all. LOL

[Hannah Bell]

104. "free" trade was your claim, not "trade". do you see the difference?

or do you now wish to pretend you were talking about trade in general, not "free" trade of the friedmanite variety, a unicorn which never existed in all of human history?

and you have failed to concede the point that there were indeed corporations in imperial rome.

and you're the only one in this thread who said anything about them being exactly equivalent to gm.

i smell -- MORE STRAW!!!

they were, however, equivalent in being incorporated entities formed to engage in & control an aspect of economic life & commerce -- & make money. also equivalent in their reach & power & control over the economic lives & fortunes of ordinary people.


now, having demonstrated you don't know jack shit about rome or anything else, why don't you toddle off to bed?

[HeresyLives]

108. Tariffs are the only difference,

and both forms of trade were used at varying times, and between different countries.

Something you claimed never happened until now.

There were no corporations in Imperial Rome...get serious.

English is Latin plus the local dialect so our words have a Latin base.

Thru horsing around now?

[Confusious]

100. Big land owners with lots of slaves

Same thing really.

[HeresyLives]

102. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

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[Hannah Bell]

121. the post to which you responded was deleted. as i recall, it was about economic

arrangements in the roman empire.

something like:


elites forced the tax burden on smallholders, bankrupting them.
then took their land via "insider deals"
then forced the people to pay (through taxation) for the loss (through conquest) of the elite's properties in north africa.
etc.

increasing concentration of wealth & corruption at the top destroyed rome.

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[HeresyLives]

11. I've never said he was a genius, I said he knows global tech.

I've also said he sucks at politics.

Friedman works for a newspaper, not a corporation.

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[Hello_Kitty]

13. Let's not forget how dead fucking wrong he was on the Iraq war.

The "Friedman unit" was invented to mock the way he promised things were going to turn around "in 6 months". Every 6 months, he changed his story.

[HeresyLives]

15. And if you'd read my post

you'd know I said he sucked at politics.

[Hello_Kitty]

20. Um, my OP is about politics too.

The politics of corporate parasites convincing local governments to subsidize them while they openly admit that they are screwing them over.

“As a citizen, I hate it. As a global employer, I have the luxury of hiring the best engineers anywhere on earth. If I can’t get them out of M.I.T., I’ll get them out of Tsing Hua” — Beijing’s M.I.T.

[HeresyLives]

30. No, it's about outdated ideology.

[Hello_Kitty]

41. Outdated ideology? Explain, please. eom

[HeresyLives]

44. Old socialist stuff about capitalist pigs

vs the 'workers'.

Socialism was a response to capitalism. Both of them are dead now.

[Hello_Kitty]

45. So what do we have now? Do tell. eom

[HeresyLives]

48. Move to a different 'economy'.

One based on knowledge, and mental work...not physical work.

[Raineyb]

98. Maybe you haven't noticed but it's a lot harder for labor to move and

sell their wares somewhere else than it is for capital to pick up and move to a low paying country where they can pay starvation wages to the people (until they start demanding better wages where capital will move and start the cycle all over again)

[HeresyLives]

101. Physical moves have nothing to do with moving

to a new kind of economy.

[Raineyb]

107. Merely manipulating ones and zeros does not create wealth.

It's an illusion which will eventually end up blowing up in your face. Not that you seem to know ANYTHING about well anything.

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[eridani]

144. Oh, I see

You're one of these silly imaginary people who doesn't eat or us products made out of chemical elements. You're just an abstact summation of whatever you think you know.

[Confusious]

103. I think you have communism and socialism confused

Socialism is not dead, communism is.

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[HeresyLives]

112. All of them are dead.

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[Raineyb]

57. He also sucks at history. That bullshit he wrote in the Lexus and the Olive Branch

or whatever the hell that drek was called was a prime example of someone getting history exactly WRONG. Toyota didn't get as big as it did due to free trade it got as big as it did because in the beginning when it was transitioning from making looms the Japanese government protected its infant car industry by keeping the American cars the hell out.

But neocons and their flunkies never learn a damn thing.

[HeresyLives]

61. LOL I don't recall him saying it was due to

free trade.

[Raineyb]

83. The whole book was an drooling ode to free trade and he used

the bloody Lexus as an example of it. Of course he was arguing it was due to free trade.

[HeresyLives]

84. No, it was none of that.

[Hannah Bell]

73. yes, the toyota example was bullshit from a main vein. like all his stuff.

[HeresyLives]

75. US cars have always run perfectly.

That's why everyone in the world buys them, and your car companies are booming

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[sandnsea]

21. Oregon just voted to increase corporate taxes

If Intel wants educated workers, they'll have to pay for them in Oregon. Maybe Arizona should follow suit.

[Hello_Kitty]

28. I wish.

Sadly, Arizona voters have shown themselves to be willing to screw themselves over and over.

[HeresyLives]

32. Then even more of Intel will leave.

[sandnsea]

34. Oh well

This economic crisis, that we're in right now, in 2010, is directly due to the fact that US workers do not have disposable income. We don't even have enough income to pay the bills. We've all been living on credit.

Corporations have to pay their share. We don't need to repeal NAFTA. We just need to stand up for ourselves.

And teachers need to work with RTTT and stop fighting constructive changes in the public schools.

[HeresyLives]

35. No, the GLOBAL crisis you're in right now

has nothing to do with US workers and disposable income.

[Hello_Kitty]

36. Obviously we need to work harder and for less money, right? eom

[HeresyLives]

37. No, work smarter and for more money.

[Hello_Kitty]

40. How? Explain, O enlightened one. eom

[HeresyLives]

50. One question, please.

No need to keep repeating it when it's already been answered. I'm not that fond of typing either.

[sandnsea]

38. Yes. It Does.

If workers had enough income, the lack of credit wouldn't be an issue.

On edit:

And that goes for workers all over the world, not just in the US.

[HeresyLives]

46. Define 'enough'.

[Raineyb]

64. Enough to have food, shelter, some entertainment, and money to put into savings.

In other words more than the starvation wages corporations would refer to pay people.

[HeresyLives]

69. Then Americans have had that for a very long time.

[Hannah Bell]

77. that's why 1/3 of them rely on social security for *all* their income in retirement.

and why 2/3 rely on social security for 50% or more of their retirement income.


because they're so goddamn financially secure.

[HeresyLives]

79. Kindly stop pretending the US is Haiti.

The majority of Americans have lived very well for generations.

To hear you lot talk you'd think Americans are the most oppressed people on earth. LOL

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[Hannah Bell]

85. you're the only person who's mentioned haiti in this thread. hmm, i smell -- STRAW!

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[Raineyb]

86. The American worker has been LOSING money over the last few decades.

And if the corporations have their way they'd be making even less.

Have you not been paying attention?

[HeresyLives]

89. And still living a very comfy life.

[Raineyb]

95. Tell that to the people who are living under bridges.

Or did the fact that the economy is in the shitter completely escape your ass?

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[Hannah Bell]

96. economic insecurity & powerlessness is never "comfy," sorry.

[HeresyLives]

105. Plasma TVs and vacations are.

So are SUVs and ATVS and trailers and all manner of other things the 'slaves and serfs' in the US have had for a very long time.

[Hannah Bell]

117. you're really too silly. tv = "comfort". right. tv = "opiate"

http://www.spraguephoto.com/stock/images/Cambodia/km05-99%20Technology%20Cambodia%20Boy%20watching%20TV%20run%20off%20car%20battery%20Trac%20village%20Cambodia%20*%0D%0A.jpg

[HeresyLives]

118. You're doing the buying, I'm not.

[Hannah Bell]

119. he's got a flat-screen tv! such comfort, he's made for life.

http://www1.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Mumbai+Slum+Redevelopment+Stalled+Financial+-4wAktor1jCl.jpg


Shyan Natekar and his father Rajan Natekar watch television in their dwelling in the Dharavi slum on February 2, 2009 in Mumbai, India. The redevelopment of asia's largest slum, the Dharavi, spanning over 535-acres and situated in the heart of the world's third largest city and India's financial capital, has been stalled by the economic financial crisis, bad press and local protests. (Photo by Daniel Berehulak/Getty Images) *** Local Caption *** Shyan Natekar;Rajan Nateka

[HeresyLives]

120. His choice.

[Hannah Bell]

122. no, no, it means he has a comfortable life!! tv = comfortable life, per you.

[HeresyLives]

124. He's starting on it.

Most middle class Americans have a house full of stuff.

[Hannah Bell]

126. so do most middle class indians. & most middle class chinese. & most middle class russians.

etc. they have tvs!

[HeresyLives]

127. Why yes they do!

And it came about thru tech and trade and knowledge.

[Hannah Bell]

130. it came about through money arbitraging labor.

[HeresyLives]

137. Tech, trade and knowledge.

[Hannah Bell]

128. yeah, i'm sure that tv will be a comfort when the slum they're living in is bulldozed

for scheduled upper class redevelopment & they've got to find another slum to live in.

this is their present home, but it's going to be bulldozed for skyscrapers.

such comfort!

see, his tv doesn't save him from having his entire life uprooted at the whim of the rich.

[HeresyLives]

132. It's a democracy, and Indians love what's going on

Altho why I'm now being blamed for some slum being bulldozed I don't know.

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[okie]

131. How many Americans do you think have these things?

And further, assuming a lot of folks do own these types of goods, what does that actually mean? That Americans are well off? That their standard of living has gone up? Maybe it just says something about the fact that the United States has become quite wealthy over the past 50 years, and as a consequence certain luxury goods have gotten less expensive. Maybe it says something about the role consumer credit has played in the economy over the past couple of decades to make up for the fact that wages have been stagnant since the 1970s.

[HeresyLives]

134. TVs??? Everybody in the country!

And maybe it says that middle-class America has been comfy for a long long time

As I said in the first place.

[okie]

139. You said trailers, ATVs, large SUVs, and such.

First we have to define "middle class". If we're talking about a certain sector of managers, lawyers, doctors, and a few others I might be willing to concede that a middle class exists. But it seems to me that when the term is thrown around people just kind of nod their heads as if we all know what's being talked about.

Then we have to define what you mean by "comfy". Are we talking about wages? Are we talking about job security? The cost of educating a child? So on and so forth. Most folks are not comfortable with the state of these kinds of things.

[HeresyLives]

141. Yup, general assortment of things.

And of course a middle class exists.

Moreover there is a lower middle-class, a middle middle-class, and an upper middle-class

I think comfy is pretty self-explanatory. Not rich, not everything they want or think they should have, but comfy.

Joe Lunch-pail today lives better than all the kings in history...and longer.

[okie]

143. How do you define these things?

You can't just say all these classes exist because of course they do!

You're not being very precise. You're saying people are largely comfy in spite of declining or stagnant wages, soaring education costs, little security in the workplace, etc? If so, again, what are meaning when we say folks are "comfy"?

Perhaps Joe Lunch Pail is better off in many ways. He can eat and surf the web and watch all kinds of channels. But does this change the underlying exploitation? Does this change the fact that wealth has only been moving upward? And, further, how does his supposed comfy lifestyle depend on brutalities inflicted on working people in China, India, Central America, and Africa?

[sandnsea]

146. Bought on credit cards, like I said

And now that the credit is gone - so is the buying power and so is the RV industry, for one. You do know almost every RV manufacturer went bankrupt last year, and I mean bankrupt as in GONE.

That was your middle class. The working class could never afford any of that. The working class hasn't had a vacation in at least a decade. The working class can't even afford gas to go camping.

[Radical Activist]

93. That moron Friedman can go fuck himself.

Ever notice how all his stories about traveling to foreign countries involve stays at five start hotels and meetings with world leaders? Does this clueless, insulated jackass ever meet real people?

I'm sill waiting for him to apologize for advocating trade deals that hurt the environment before I listen to the new Mr. Green tell me about global warming. Hypocritical fucktard.

[HeresyLives]

97. LOL oh now his hotels are criticized.

And apparently company heads aren't 'real people'.

Do you folks ever listen to yourselves?

[Hello_Kitty]

106. The poor dears, those company heads.

Hopefully, they are patting you on yours.

[Radical Activist]

111. Try listening yourself and think about it.

This is a man who claims to be an expert on the world economy and writes books about economic structures that dramatically change the lives of billions. Don't you think he should know how the policies he advocates impact the poor around the world? Shouldn't he know what the poor think too and not just the rich few he associates with? Do you think that conversing mostly with politicians and CEO's gives him a distorted view of the world? Do you think he might have a different view if he personally interacted with people in the third world who were negatively impacted by the trade policies he advocates instead of only visiting a fake Disneyland version of poor countries and only talking to leaders who are getting rich off those policies?

It matters. A lot. Friedman is a clueless joke.

[HeresyLives]

115. He writes about tech and tech companies.

So he talks to tech CEOs...and you think this is odd.

And since you don't know about his trips to Liberia, or anything he's said about trade, I think you'd better stop right there.

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[Radical Activist]

125. You don't really buy that line do you?

Funny. Does telling people they'd "better stop right there" usually work for you when you don't have a point to make? FYI, it makes you sound like a real jagoff.

Even in the column linked in the OP he's writing about trade, going through an airport (which isn't a normal xperience for 98% of the world) and talking to a CEO. That's typical.

I'm looking at his list of books and none of them claim to be focused on tech and tech companies. He writes about trade, the economy, the environment and politics. Not just tech. Seriously that's the weakest, most disingenuous argument I've seen on this board in a while.
http://www.thomaslfriedman.com/bookshelf

[HeresyLives]

129. Well see, I read the books.

And there's not much point talking ABOUT the books with someone who's never READ the books.

All his books are about tech

[Hannah Bell]

133. his books = claptrap, garbage, propaganda. he's a propagandist,

he's been wrong about 90% of what he's written about, & he writes what his backers tell him to say.

any questions?

oh, & he married a billionaire's daughter. which is the only reason he has a job.

[HeresyLives]

135. You've never read his books.

[Name removed]

140. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HughBeaumont]

147. Not only that, but a few more things as well . . .

Aside from that pie that was thrown at him at GreenWatch . . .

Do you ever notice that he pretty much appears on news shows . . . by himself?

Curious, when has this guy ever been before a non-loaded audience? Has he ever had to confront an opposing viewpoint on a news segment?

Ever notice he very rarely, if ever, participates in a Q/A session at his lectures/speaking engagements that doesn't consist of mostly moderate lily-livered softballs?

Ever notice this guy pretty much gets an open, uncontested forum for his neo-lib, Free Traitor spewing and commentators don't even slightly question or press him on the legitimacy of his cockamamie laissez-fail theories or his weird and hamfisted metaphors?

Google or YouTube "Thomas Friedman vs.". Yeah, you'll find a lot of videos, but not even a thumb's worth of "Vs".

Is it because he might have to be forced to defend the indefensible and come out in support of a very detrimental practice and wholesale con job on the American worker?

[HeresyLives]

142. Well, this has been fun.

Not terribly enlightening mind, but fun.

And to whoever is modding tonight...damn yer good!

Fast too...nearly lost my toes a couple of times there. LOL

[HughBeaumont]

145. Oh look, another thread ruined by ThomasFriedmanLi_es.

It will never stop being a condescending nuisance.

And you would think AZ would be a bit more progressive than voting for Bewsh twice and McClown.

[JVS]

148. What a surprise!