If I was a typical Mexican, I'd be here illegally.

[IndianaJoe]

Is it a bad thing to want a better life instead of a hopeless one? As for those extolling doing it "legally", do any of them know what it takes to "be legal" and how long a Mexican ordinarily has to wait to come here legally? Answer: It's tremendously difficult for a typical Mexican to even get a visa to come here to visit. Unless he has a U.S. spouse, the waiting line for an immigrant visa is generally more than 10 years.

Once they come here, my experience is that most Mexicans do everything they can to get legal. In general they are hard working, very family oriented, ambitious, and usually make fine citizens. They are the sort of people we want. Also, their being here helps assure people of my age that they'll get their social security pensions.

I'm not for throwing open the borders, but I also have strong feelings about social justice. Those who said in previous posts that the question "is illegal immigration a bad thing" is unnuanced are absolutely right. This sounds like a question Lou Dobbs would ask. Personally, when I think about the contributions that illegals have made and are making to this country, my general attitude would be that, on balance, illegal immigration is probably not such a bad thing.

[Oregone]

1. Not I. Id turn my corn field into a pot farm (after subsidized US corn killed my livelihood)

Then Id have human-mules pack it in for me.

[IndianaJoe]

2. I heard about that last night on PBS

Flooding Mexico with subsidized corn made a lot of desperately poor campesinos even poorer.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

3. It's also an issue covered in "Food, Inc.", but many Americans...

can't seem to connect the dots. Or refuse to.

[speedcat]

9. ethanol too

made from subsidized corn, removes corn from market and jacks up tortilla prices and makes poor people less able to eat their most basic staple. NAFTA is good how again?

[treestar]

4. Most of the people who rail against illegal immigrants

Would be doing the exact same thing if they were in that person's shoes.

[rapturedbyrobots]

13. most of the people who rail against illegal aliens

get up in the morning in a house built by undocumented workers, drive to work on roads paved by undocumented workers, go to lunch at a restaurant with a kitchen staffed by undocumented workers, cooked with ingredients harvested by undocumented workers....then go home at night and bitch about illegal immigration.

the country NEEDS the services that cheap undocumented labor provides. if you want to stop the flow of illegal immigrants, figure out how to stop the demand for cheap immigrant labor. which means figuring out how to get through your day without the benefits that cheap labor provides...which they are not willing to do.

[proudohioan]

18. That is too true!

Funny, but I was thinking the same thing when I was chopping up my green peppers, product of Mexico.

[MellowDem]

69. Not really...

maybe in some localities, but most likely, no. Personally, I don't LIKE that we have an underclass of people we use for cheap labor. We don't NEED slave labor, the Republicans WANT it. What we NEED are better labor laws and more unions. And illegal immigration kills both of those.

Do you see how conservative your opinion is?

[amandabeech]

75. Then why were the Anglos up in my home town last summer looking

for work in the fields?

Why do all those Anglos fix the roads there?

Why do all the Anglos work at the McDonald's there?

The answer is that they want jobs, and there aren't enough to go around anymore.

In fact, if they could get hired and find a place to sleep, plenty of Anglos would come to where you live and do those jobs for minimum wage.

Do you have any idea what the unemployment rate is in many places in this country?

Things have changed a lot in the past 4 or 5 years. A lot.

[treestar]

120. Why did they then?

They are legal and live in the US and there are no restrictions on US citizens moving from state to state.

[emilyg]

77. My family and I didn't - we

waited a long time but came here legally.

[bliss_eternal]

5. i can't get past the term, "typical mexican."

:wtf:

broad-brushing and insensitive much?

[IndianaJoe]

8. Sorry I offended your sensibilities.

I'm talking about the poor Mexicans -- probably the 95%+ that don't own anything. The ones that can't get tourist visas from our embassies because the State Department has no confidence they'll return. If you don't own anything, you generally can't get even a nonimmigrant visa.

[bliss_eternal]

12. not just my "sensibilities"....

....just a fyi, but it's against the rules of this community to broad-brush groups of people. but yeah, it's offensive either way...there is no "typical" for a mexican (or anyone else). the suggestion that there is, is presumptious and insensitive. :eyes:

[IndianaJoe]

14. Well, let's agree to disagree.

I did not intend to broadbrush all Mexicans. I like most of the Mexicans I have had occasion to meet. In my answer, I tried to explain what I meant.

BTW, people here talk about "typical Republicans" all the time. Do you make a point of policing that too?

[bliss_eternal]

15. seriously...?

you dared to give voice to such a comment, and you wonder why i've taken exception to your choice of words?

quote:
I like most of the Mexicans I have had occasion to meet.

nice. :eyes:

um....dude, try some senstivity training.
at the very least...try reading the rules of this community in regard to "broadbrushing and stereotyping."

jmho, but your attempt to clarify, has only made your original comment look worse from where i sit.

why would i take exception to comments about republicans on a board for democrats? :crazy:
last i checked, they're not a protected entity according to our community standards. ethnic minorities are. hello?!

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CreekDog]

70. oh the old "sorry if I..."

followed by the complaint that someone pointed out what you said.

...you know, speaking of Republicans...

:eyes:

[miscsoc]

82. this witless thread illustrates something

about the american left.

namely that some people are more interested in parading their superior verbal sensitivity than in advancing the welfare of the oppressed people they are ostensibly working for.

there's genuinely fascistic shit going on in arizona right now and it's ridiculous that soi-disant progressives are arguing about the most appropriate way to verbally express their sympathy with immigrants rather than discussing how to actually put that sympathy into practice.

[CreekDog]

86. That's cute: the OP cares but those who criticize him are just trying to look good

:rofl:

I'm sure whatever else you think is just as enlightening. :bounce:

[IndianaJoe]

92. I don't think that's what he was saying at all.

Your paraphrasing of his post is inaccurate and unfair.

[bliss_eternal]

101. ...because it supports you.

:eyes:

[bliss_eternal]

100. +10

CreekDog... :rofl:

you're so funny!

[DaveinJapan]

16. Oh, brother. If he'd written "ordinary" or "regular", would you still be up in arms? nt

[bliss_eternal]

17. well, since you asked...

....not labeling a human being in any way, when refering to the being's ethnic group (gender, sex, etc.) would go far toward not being offensive.

attempts to guide new members toward following community rules, isn't "up in arms"....but a reminder that there are some on this board affected by the words some choose to use here. nothing more or less.

given that you weren't a part of that communication in any way, not at all sure why you feel the need to comment....but hey, free world, i suppose. :eyes:

[DaveinJapan]

20. I commented because I thought your reply was a bit much.

I realize that people read things different ways and it's a good idea to be mindful of how you come off when you write stuff, but in this case all I got out of it was that he was referring to a "typical" Mexican in the sense that the majority of ordinary folks living there might be inclined to want to get out in order to escape the brutal poverty and try to get work elsewhere. As opposed to perhaps a wealthy or highly skilled person who could probably get on fine without needing to leave the country.

That's the reason I asked...but now I'm not sure how exactly YOU would describe the person the OP was trying to describe then, without any of the terms mentioned. How would you?

As far as following community rules, I've read them all and I don't see where this guy violated them in any meaningful way (I've seen far worse, I'll say that much!). So I don't really get why you feel the need to be the "community rules" advisor other than your own personal perspective on what was written being "offensive" or not. But you're entitled to your opinion. Free world and all. :smoke:

[bliss_eternal]

37. first and foremost...

....problems tend to be avoided when people outside of disagreements allow such discussion to remain between those engaged--as opposed to jumping into communications that don't involve you. though you are entitled to your opinion of my comments (i'd just appreciate it more if you kept it to yourself). ;)

fyi--
clearly it hasn't occured to you (or the op) there are mexican americans that are members of this community.
Du'ers of mexican descent are entitled to not see other (clueless) members making blanket statements about them or their culture--which are based on member's rather obvious limited knowledge of a culture (seemingly gathered from watching the tv news).

such limited knowledge of a culture leaves out any people w/mexican heritage who were born in the states, aren't immigrants, etc. AND invalidates the idea that there is a "typical" representative of the culture.

[treestar]

23. You mean we can never refer to any group without being insensitive?

Some people are too sensitive. There's a line to be drawn in every issue and with you, we've met it.

You're going to be offended by someone sympathizing with illegal immigrants in the US because he referred to them? Really?

[rcrush]

25. Only on DU does someone go out of their way to be offended

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bliss_eternal]

103. actually, i didn't go out of my way....

at all. it was quite convenient. :) but thanks for the concern. :hi:

[bliss_eternal]

33. translation....

quote:
Some people are too sensitive.

"i lack the ability to exercise empathy for others that differ from me--by sex, gender, racial identity, or other ways. so i'll just label those that point out insensitive language as "too sensitive." doing so allows me to not have to address others humanity, or the ways language is used to oppress others in society."

:)

[treestar]

122. I have empathy for you

The suffering of a person who has to stop and feel inferior just because someone else used a word like "typical." Ii do feel bad for you as you cannot get through a day without feeling attacked, if that is enough. Happiness must elude you.

Most of us are typical Americans. If someone else says that I'm not going to take the time to feel sad, oppressed or abused. I'll reserve that for worse.

[CreekDog]

76. no, we're offended that he wrongly assumed they were all illegals

along with a bunch of other stereotypes you believe when you're wrong.

and you should be offended too, but whatever.

[miscsoc]

78. what the fuck is wrong with being an illegal

a lot of mexicans are illegals, what's wrong with that?

they are ignoring racist immigration laws and choosing to live and work where they want on the planet that is their's as much as it is anyone else's.

[CreekDog]

80. if they aren't it's wrong to assume they all are

stereotyping is wrong.

[miscsoc]

81. i don't think anyone assumes they literally all are

the "typical mexican" i.e. the average individual from mexico in your country, might be. i don't know what the statistics are. i seriously don't think anyone in this thread actually believes all mexicans are illegal, you're railing against a straw man.

[CreekDog]

85. stereotyping bugs me okay?

and i don't think my getting bugged by it and calling it out makes me look any better.

but it's just a sucky thing to say about a group of people and it's right to tell people "not here"...sheesh, if I wanted to hear wrong stereotypes I could listen to Rush or Beck, why do I have to come here to read them? :wtf:

[bliss_eternal]

102. um....let's start w/the term....

"illegals." :eyes:

excuse me for saying so, but what the f*** is with calling human beings such a thing? we're talking about people. you know? individual human beings. not objects that are against the law to possess. not items that people can label based on how they feel about the issue. these are people.

they're not "illegals."
if you're referring to immigrants w/out green cards they are merely undocumented immigrants.

[miscsoc]

115. i don't have any problem with calling them undocumented immigrants

i guess i will in future.

the problem with harping on about these verbal issues (which aren't non-issues) is that it sows division among people who agree on more important questions regarding the concrete welfare of undocumented immigrants. it also alienates people who mean well but haven't had the benefit of the requisite sensitivity training - i might add that you're more likely to have had that benefit if you are educated, from a relatively privileged background, etc. and that if you're interested in sensitivity towards the oppressed you might consider the class ramifications of your stance.

it's a legitimate thing to raise but it should be way down the list of priorities for legitimate progressives (as opposed to the legions of people whose attachment to left wing politics is, deep down, more of a lifestyle accessory than a genuine conviction) and certainly shouldn't cause us to distract ourselves with useless arguments instead of pursuing our wider ends regarding immigrant rights. I think some of the reactions to this post are frankly self indulgent and flippant and imply that the authors probably fall into the latter category.

[treestar]

125. OMG I'd be offended every day all day long if I had that thin a skin.

He only meant that there are poor Mexicans who migrate here illegally. And he was actually sympathizing with them and saying he would be one of them. It's almost sick to take offense at that. Imagine when you run into freepers and others. You would wilt like a lily.

Since Mexico had a few rich and many poor and no stable middle class, it is "typical" to be poor and not rich. Geez, it is "typical" of Americans to speak English, are you going to be oppressed by someone observing that?

[marshall]

124. There is a perceived "typical"

The notion that Mexico is full of poor folks who are aching to get north of the border to the land of milk and honey, where life is good and the government works.

[marmar]

21. Thank You.....WTF is a "typical Mexican"?

nt

[bliss_eternal]

28. last i checked...

...there's no such thing. :)

[NM_hemilover]

58. typical response,

I would be curious how,... if at all,... you would find the word "typical" could be used ?

or is your probme with the word "Mexican"?

[bliss_eternal]

104. read my other responses...

...and i'm sure that my feelings on the issue will become clear. :)

[treestar]

22. OP was imagining being in a different person's shoes

So it is no time to bash him on the same basis.

Of course everyone is an individual, it's just a shorthand and the OP was sympathizing.

[bliss_eternal]

30. so you're clairvoyant...?

:eyes: i don't think so.
kindly, allow the op to speak for himself (as they've already done). you can't speak for anyone but yourself. thanks just the same.

[IndianaJoe]

42. So you can comment on my posts

But they can't comment on yours? Sounds fair.

[uppityperson]

27. That term stopped me also, but reading on the rest, ignoring phrasing like

"most Mexicans" and "Personally, when I think about the contributions that illegals have made", the OP needs to learn better terms when talking about people, but the ideas otherwise are good.

[bliss_eternal]

32. you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

.

as i'm sure you're aware. just as i'm entitled to take issue w/the language utilized. such word choice shows a rather obvious lack of knowledge (and regard) for the issue (and people concerned). as i'm certain you'd see if the issue at hand was one of gender. but thanks for sharing your opinion.

[uppityperson]

34. I know what you mean about the terminology. Am watching it

sometimes I may let something slide while watching for the larger picture, other times it is quite indicative of the background (feeling? emotion? can't think of the right term, slant?) of the poster.

[bliss_eternal]

38. too many members here...

...think they're experts, because they've watched the news and have actually met a few people w/in a demographic. :eyes: it tends to make for rather insensitive, ill-informed commentary of issues. it's painful and more than a little pathetic to see whatever the issue (i.e. women's issues, glbt rights, people of color, the disabled, etc.)

some would do well to ASK others w/in the demographic, as opposed to spewing off what they believe are thought provoking arguments, based on media reports (which are frequently culturally insensitive and superficial at best).

on edit---appreciate your sensitive response. :):hi:

[Shell Beau]

62. What about a typical American?

[David Zephyr]

83. +1

You said it before I could.

[PDJane]

6. That's because most Americans

have no idea of or interest in how much of the 'things' we enjoy and are supposed to want destroy the lifestyles and environments of other people, and are, in fact stolen from them. Those stolen resources are the reason that these people are poor, not because their countries aren't rich.

The system is rigged, and for most of us it isn't a good thing. The reason that the US has problems with small countries like Bolivia and Venezuela and Cuba and Iran is because the people have managed to take a course contrary to the aims of the United States....that can't be tolerated, in case their own populations get ideas.

[speedcat]

7. there is no other way

you know, the American economy is heavily indebted to illegal Mexican labor. There are entire industries and regions that would fail outright without their contributions. Not to mention the social justice aspect. I totally agree with you.

It's like, this country needs the labor, and they need the jobs. It is the US Congress' moral duty to make it legal for these folks to work here. But they consistently keep the number of available visas for Mexicans at a rate that, if truly enforced, would destroy our economy. Our immigration policy is sheer madness. But then again, so much of our political landscape is heavily influenced by sheer madness, or worse, so... I guess it's par for the course.

Cheers!
.
.
.

[Richard Steele]

10. I'm a typical "white guy" - I'm here illegally.

I'm descended from two brothers named "Steele"
who arrived in North America around 1738AD...

They didn't ask anyone for permission to cross the border,
and they sure as hell never got 'green cards'.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who sneaks into the USA
without 'Official Permission' is upholding the traditions
that this once-great nation was built upon.

[proudohioan]

19. Hey, I guess that makes part of me illegal, too!

My Sohns ancestors came from Germany around 1770, nearest I can tell they were indentured servants.
The rest of my mishmash of ancestors probably got their papers, or at least that's what they told the 1930 census taker....

Good point!

[treestar]

24. My right wing relative used to brag about an ancestor who came

over as a stowaway. Later realized he was rendering us all illegal or noncitizens if he had his way on birthright citizenship!

[EFerrari]

54. LOL

:toast:

[KT2000]

11. Agree 100%

Well said too.
As my dearly departed 94 year old friend used to say - I would be one of them.
She also liked to learn their stories and was genuinely energized by their enthusiasm for this country.

Where I live, we have many immigrants from Mexico, Central and South America but I am pretty sure they are all legal. Homeland Security got lots of money here so they sit in jeeps on the side of the road next to farms where they are working, watching them with binoculars. They have nothing else to do since they had to quit stopping traffic at checkpoints where their hunt for terrorists only netted legal immigrants and US citizens who were carted off to immigration jail in Seattle.

Yes - they are people you want in a community. Unfortunately, the families seem to stay home now and not make eye contact or talk with strangers since there is so much hatred out there. That is sad and points out the group of people I wish would leave this community - the ignorant bigots.

[Texasgal]

26. I wouldn't WANT to be illegal

to be exploited and used.

[EFerrari]

51. No one wants to live like that. n/t

[Taitertots]

31. So the laws don't matter as long as someone wants a better life?

I could have a better life if I lived in your house. I'm moving into your basement.

[EFerrari]

55. Stop blowing up my home and I won't need to move into yours.

-- Thank you, Latin America

[NNN0LHI]

35. I am not sure if the "average",(I like that word better) Mexican would have enough tenacity ...

... and be tough enough to make it here alive? I don't think I could have done it. Not because I didn't want to come to America and do the best for my family. More I would have been too scared to leave some small dusty town and cross a desert and a river and not get ripped off or shot on the way. I don't see myself having the nerve or the resilience to pull something like that off. Even though I would have wanted to very much.

The ones that do make it must be some very brave and tough people. And I admire brave and tough people.

Especially when they are able to do something I know I would never have had the gumption to do myself. Even though I wanted to very badly.

Don

[AngryAmish]

36. The "typical" life of a Mexican person is "hopeless"?

Really? Have you been to Mexico? Do you know any Mexicans? Mexico is not a hellhole. It is filled with millions of people living life. THe standard of living is good compared to the rest of humanity.

Your post is very...nearsighted.

[bliss_eternal]

39. thank you.

clearly the op has based their comments on the superficial (and sadly racially insensitive) news casts and media reports that paint all mexicans as impoverished, desperate and infinitely hopeless.

it's troubling to see du'ers attempting to create a discussion while making presumptious, seemingly lazy comments based on stereotypes.

there are mexican americans on du.
why not ask their opinions of these issues BEFORE making such assertions? why not take the time to learn more about the human beings behind the issue INSTEAD of acting like you've got it all figured out? especially when your language choice makes it rather obvious you haven't a clue...:eyes:

[BlooInBloo]

44. The 'I would kill myself if I were one of THOSE people' attitude is common...

with a certain sort of American.

[IndianaJoe]

45. Well, it isn't paradise.

Yes, BTW I have been to Mexico. I know what I'm talking about. Do you?

[bliss_eternal]

105. lemme' guess...

...TJ? just cross the border to have some fun? but nothing beyond that?

:eyes:

[bliss_eternal]

40. The op is as offensive as the law, imo....

...given that the poster identifies as non-mexican, yet attempts to speak to what mexicans do. :eyes: which he states (in post #14) he's only ever been acquainted w/few of the people he's attempting to speak for. :crazy:

[IndianaJoe]

41. I'm an Immigration Lawyer lady.

I know hundreds of Mexicans. I've represented hundreds. I don't ever recall saying I've been only acquainted with a few Mexicans. I've played soccer with them, gone to their birthday parties, their kids baptisms and first communions. I've gotten them Green Cards, citizenship papers, and represented a good number of them for nothing because they couldn't afford representation. I'm proud to call many very, very close friends.

Do you want some affidavits from some of my clients attesting to my cultural sensitivity?
I could get a great number very easily.

BTW, as offensive as you seem find me, I find you awfully offensive too. Is the word sanctimonious in your vocabulary?

Also, if you choose to quote me in the future, please get it right.

[Hello_Kitty]

49. Ah yes, a variation of "some of my best friends are..."

Again, stereotypes are ALWAYS demeaning.

[EFerrari]

53. I think you are confusng a stereotype with a generalization.

I can generalize and say, there is terrible, even fatal poverty in Mexico and not be demeaning anyone. I can also generalize and say, with very few exceptions (as in I can't think of one), the undocumented workers I have met and dealt with in one way or another are very hardworking people who in general share my values. That's not demeaning and it happens to be true. Those are the kind of people I want around me, for sure.

[Hello_Kitty]

56. Point taken but here's the problem as I see it:

The way that pro-immigration activists and their allies in the business community have characterized immigrant workers is not only polarizing (as it suggests that native born workers don't generally have the same strong work ethic), but it has also created the perception that immigrant workers (documented or not) have an innately higher tolerance for deprivations and indignities in the workplace. This is exploitive toward them, and in turn puts more pressure on native born workers to compete. At some point we need to realize that some jobs are just too inhumane for any human being to be doing, no matter what comforting essentialist tales we tell ourselves.

[EFerrari]

61. Pro immigration activists are polarizing because of their mere existance these days, imo.

I don't see how exploitation can be pinned on community organizers who work for human rights protections for immigrants. That can only be done if you take those statements out of context -- in the same way that Affirmative Action taken out of context looks like privilege. It isn't, it's a response to racism.

Btw, today I got an email from SOA Watch -- they've joined the boycott and are helping Presente.org to collect signatures to send to the AZ government and Chamber of Commerce.

[Hello_Kitty]

64. But many pro-immigration groups are funded by Big Business.

How likely are you to call out Walmart for labor abuses of immigrants if Walmart is providing a lot of the funding to your organization? Like Upton Sinclair said, it's difficult to make someone understand something when his paycheck depends upon him not understanding it.

[EFerrari]

65. That is a *very* important point.

A lot of organizations are in hock today to Big Business. Point taken.

[bliss_eternal]

98. Yes, thank YOU...

....Hello Kitty! :hi:

:rofl: This would be funny, if it weren't so sad.

[bliss_eternal]

99. I'm sorry....

...but I just don't believe you. Upthread you state "the few you've known"...now you're saying you've known and worked with hundreds?

:eyes: Um...right.

For the record, there's no status you can claim that is going to nullify the fact that you used insensitive language to create this thread. Bottom line, you stepped in it (big time). Maybe you should deal w/that instead of wracking your brain attempting to find some way you can justify what you did.

[treestar]

121. Welcome

You will find daily threads on DU spreading misinformation about H-1Bs. Maybe you have the expertise to quash the myth that they come here and work for less than US citizens, which some diligently attempt to purvey on DU no matter how many times they are proven wrong by a link to the Department of Labor web site.

One DU rule is that we can't mention any friends you have of any ethnic group. For some reason, it is racist for whites to mention any of their nonwhite friends or their opinions.

You will get this kind of thread hijack you are experiencing with the use of the wrong word as and you can see there is no getting the discussion back. Pathetic, but like the conservatives being offended that Obama called his grandmother a typical white person, oddly, DU has many who are looking to be offended and any generalizing word will be enough.

On DU, the offendee determines offensiveness, and will get a chorus of supporters, so there is no way to avoid offending someone. Something like "If I were a poor Mexican, I'd have come to the US illegally, too." You would still offend some people of course, it's impossible to post on DU without someone claiming offense, but that would have avoided the generalizing word and maybe get people to see that point that we all would be doing the same thing in their shoes.

As our ancestors did. The US of the 19th century simply didn't have the "high tech" method of adding, "you're illegal too," to the poor and desperate immigrants just wanting to survive.

[haele]

46. Uh, no. In border towns, the "typical Mexican" is shopping in the US or visiting relatives

who are citizens - family ties that go back generations. If they're working here, there's a decent chance they're working legally on a green card. Or they're professionals visiting other professionals in the States.
Generalizing by race or country of origin is much different than generalizing by a chosen philosophy. One cannot "choose" to be Mexican. One can "choose" to be belong to or stay in the current Republican party.
Saying "typical Mexican" is not the same as saying "typical Republican".

Haele

[Hello_Kitty]

47. "They are the sort of people we want"

Ethnic stereotypes are demeaning, even the so-called "positive" ones.

[IndianaJoe]

57. I guess I wonder how you talk about anyone in the plural

unless it is in some stilted, hyper-qualified form of "Inoffensish". Sheesh, gimme a break!

[bliss_eternal]

106. the english language....

...provides ways to discuss people in the plural without the use of stereotypes, blanket statements and generalizations. it's possible. as many others here have told you.

you either make the effort to do so, or not. you either care about members of this forum who are affected by such words, or you don't. your choice.

[EFerrari]

48. I agree with that. You're a lawyer, I used to be a Spanish interpreter

in the city and county of San Francisco and as I'm looking after my mother in San Jose at the moment, you can't swing a dead gato around here without hitting one of my compas.

I know many of them in this area. And their citizen or resident parents or children or in-laws. In an emergency, my mother or I would call one of them first because we have built up relationships of trust over the years. Thank goodness, the police chief of San Jose came out early against the road Arizona is taking.

The east side of San Jose is famously Mexican. I love it here and have a strong affinity for my neighbors although my own family is from Central America.

NAFTA and a corrupt oligarchy supported by our State Department has wreaked havoc in Mexico. I hope that the democratizing wave now washing over Latin America makes inroads there so those of my friends that are here against their own wishes can finally go home to stay.

[IndianaJoe]

59. I was stationed in Monterey for awhile

when I was in the Army. I used to visit San Jose a lot. I found it to be a very friendly town.

California, historically, seems to owe a great deal of its wonderful ambience to Mexican influences. I'm speaking generally here, of course, and that statement, of course, is also only based on my first-hand experiences, which, I hasten to add here, are obviously limited in space and time and certainly cannot be counted as the experiences of everyone. Also, in so stating the above, I definitely want to clarify here that it was not my purpose, aim, or intent to callously or inadvertently lend credence to any false stereotypes or misinpressions. Rather, in making the above statement, it was my aim to be absolutely as inoffensive and culturally sensitive as possible. Because, at bottom, as we all know, all men are brothers (and sisters too!). So, when I mentioned, above, that California has a wonderful ambience owing in great part to Mexican influences, I do not mean to imply that other states (and the places inside of them) do not have their own wonderful ambiences too. Absolutely not! Quite the opposite! In stating that California has a wonderful ambience, I would not want to create any misimpressions on the part of citizens of other parts of this wonderful country (or any people from other countries that are here in Dem Underground) who may happen to read this post that their states (and also America's territories and trusteeships such as Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, and the Virgin Islands, etc. etc.) are somehow lacking in cultural influences that are just as wonderful and important as those I personally found to be so prevalent and important in California. After all, there is the French influence in Louisiana which, of course, is also a very wonderful state which, like California, has a great ambience. And there's Hawaii, too, with all its Japanese, Filipino, and Chinese and other foreign influences, which is also a wonderful state full of many wonderful people and possessed of a wonderful ambience. Furthermore, in perhaps inadvertently playing up the Mexican influences in California and characterizing the resultant ambience there as wonderful, I certainly did not mean to denigrate the importance of other, non-Mexican influences in California, because we all know that those influences, too, are probably wonderful and also possessed of a high degree of probability of being very important to ambience-building and general ambience maintenance. And, as a final note, to all of the people that I have possibly offended in perhaps so rashly characterizing California and its Mexican inspired ambience as wonderful, I want to profoundly apologize here and now all cultural insensitivity I have shown because, as we all know, any discussion about people, and their ethnicities, the places where they live, and the ambiences of those places, and the origins of such ambiences is fraught with severe dangers owing to broadbrushing, typification, callous generalizing, and insensitive stereotyping. So, as a cautionary note, please understand that although I have not mentioned any, there are probably many, many negative aspects to the many Mexican influences in California and the resultant ambience prevalent there. I definitely wanted to point this fact out in order so as not to offend too many people and minimize such offense as has been given. Time to go. I'm off for more sensitivity training. Adios, Goodbye, Auf Wiedersehen, Ta-Ta!

P.S. I hope you found the above amusing. It's tough to keep everyone happy sometimes on DU. I appreciate your focusing on the drift of what I was trying to say in my original post and not my unfortunate use of the word "typical Mexican immigrant" which seems to have offended some of the readers here (but apparently not too many self-identified Mexicans).

And kudos to your calling as an interpreter. Immigration law would probably collapse without the efforts of you and those like you.

[EFerrari]

60. So is "ambience" code for something, buddy?

lol

:hi:

I've said more than once that we need practice talking about race and it looks like we'll be getting plenty because the Republicans are bringing it in all kinds of ways.

[Zipp]

50. If I could run a 4.4 - 40

I'd be in the NFL.

[DevonRex]

63. Just use the word "ordinary" next time instead of typical. It'll save you a lot of grief.

Just think of the word stereotypical whenever you're tempted to use the word typical and it'll stop you in your tracks.

[IndianaJoe]

68. Thanks for the advice! I'm taking it! Sheesh! n/t

[CreekDog]

71. Don't use either term...especially if you like, aren't talking about most people in Mexico

:eyes:

[bliss_eternal]

107. meh...

...ordinairy? not sure that there is such a thing, either. :shrug: are we all not individuals?

even on a board of progressives, there are many issues we disagree and have very differing stances on. i'd rather see that allowed for, than to see people all lumped together in some sort of pile like "ordinairy."

[CreekDog]

66. "typical" "Mexicans" live in Mexico and and "typical" Americans of Mexican descent...

Are from here to begin with.

The OP is so convoluted that I don't even know what the topic is.

It's as if the OP doesn't realize there are millions of Mexicans living in Mexico with no desire to leave and also that there are millions of Mexicans/Mexican Americans legally in the US, and especially CA/AZ right now.

So I don't really know what I should discuss here.

[bliss_eternal]

108. exactly...!

...which is why i called flame-bait on this days ago. :shrug:

[Matariki]

67. Most countries are difficult to legally immigrate to . Why should we be any different?

I can't move to many countries I'd like to relocate to because I'm either not young enough or rich enough or have the right education. Most countries don't want folks 'looking to better their lives' without having something to offer in terms of professional qualifications or rich enough to support themselves.

[amandabeech]

79. Right now, I'm older with a pre-existing condition and I can't get health insurance or a real job.

I'm one quarter Swedish, and they don't want me back. I've been there and like the place. I have a good education, but I'm old and don't have skills that they need.

My grandmother was from the UK, but they won't take me back either, because she did not pass her citizenship to my Dad.

To my mind, the U.S. is a grown-up country now, just like all the others. What happened here 100 or so years ago was, in my view, a one-time only offer--first come, first served.

I don't think that we have to keep repeating the offer until we've paved over the place and used every drop of water available. Remember, we export a lot of food and if we put houses and shopping centers on the land, we lose our ability to feed the world.

The transit oriented planned community in which I now live used to be a dairy farm. While I like the idea of development clustered around mass transit, I really don't like the fact that is it located on what used to be rain-watered pasture, hay and corn fields. It puts far too much pressure on remaining farmland to be Monsanto'd in order to produce the amount of crop per acre necessary to feed the U.S. and a lot of folks elsewhere. Monsanto'd means heavy use of chemical fertilizers, pesticides and herbicides, and in some cases, genetically modified seeds to ensure a very large amount of crop per acre. You all know that world stocks of vital grains have been at historical lows. We really can't lose more farmland. I'm really beat or I'd give you a cite.

I know that there are many fine folks around the world who would make wonderful citizens, and I don't want to pull up the drawbridge. I'd just like to have an immigration policy more in line with other developed nations.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ibegurpard]

73. If I was a typical Mexican

I'd stay the fuck away from this batshit insane country.

[miscsoc]

74. look at the visa waiver program

http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html#countries

do you see a pattern here? it's not fully to do with gdp since there are some east european countries in there who probably have economies comparable to mexico's

i've never been to the us, live half a world away and have no connection with the country but i can swan in whenever i like, whereas a mexican needs a visa if they want to visit a friend who lives fifty miles north in the u.s.

[David Zephyr]

84. Please provide your definition of a "typical Mexican". I'm curious.

Not your best foot forward here.

[IndianaJoe]

87. If I was offensive, my apologies.

If you read the gist of my original post, you can see that was not my intention.

Approximately 10 percent of Mexicans could be classed as wealthy. Approximately another 30 percent are middle class. These are not the majority of the Mexican population. Also, the bulk of Mexican immigration does not come from these classes.

At least 60 percent of Mexicans are poor, consisting chiefly of peasants and industrial workers. Immigration to the U.S. chiefly comes from the 60% of the Mexican population which is poor. This is the group I was referring to in my original post.

[bliss_eternal]

111. why do you apologize with "if"...?

:shrug:

you invalidate your apology the second you qualify it by saying "if you were offended." you aren't taking responsibility for what you said by saying, "if."

"when" someone mentions your word choice, it bothers them. no "if" about it.
you distance yourself from the appology the second you use "if."

in other words (if that wasn't clear)....it doesn't seem to be a sincere apology at all.

[Dr. Strange]

88. And if I were a typical Asian...

I'd be a woodcarver.

[AsahinaKimi]

89. Not sure I know anyone who does that but

I am open to learning how :P
Can we start with Bamboo? I want to make my own Shinai!

[Dr. Strange]

90. Ooh, nice Shinai.

Apparently some people have Asian neighbors who are woodcarvers. If I was a typical crazy radio personality, I would regale you with tales of this neighbor, and then break out in a special rendition of "Vaya con Dios," followed by a call at 3:00 in the morning complaining about why nobody likes my awesome stories.

[AsahinaKimi]

93. When I go to Chinatown

I sometimes see people carving Jade. I suppose it could have once been wood. I have seen people carve Kanji Characters in Stone, for making red inked stamps. But, seriously, none of my friends are wood carvers. The only thing I ever carved was my own Sashimi.

Oh..and theres the folding paper thing too..(Origami)


Wow, I guess we are talented. (pssst~don't look at the wooden carved kokeshi dolls below, thats just a distraction! Hontou desuyo!)

[BoWanZi]

91. Stop harping on the whole "typical mexican" thing, please?

The OP made a mistake and they apologized about it. I find it so silly that a huge bunch of unrelated sub-threads propagated out of the original posting and they keep going and going.

So he made one mistake and apologized about it, how many times does one have to be crucified over and over before the "typical" DUer will let it go.

As for the real discussion that the OP is driving at, I don't think that just because something is socially justified makes it okay even though its still against the law.

[IndianaJoe]

94. Thanks for the post.

I think what you say about social justice is sometimes true and sometimes isn't. Certainly, there are just laws that should be obeyed and unjust ones that should not be. For example, Rosa Parks's election to disobey an Alabama law saying blacks had to give up their bus seats to white passengers strikes me as an example of the latter. Of course, there she was engaging in an act of conscious civil disobedience -- intentionally violating a law she felt was unjust in order to publicize its unfairness in hopes of getting it changed. I submit that not many here would be critical of her action given the general recognition of just how fair the Alabama law was.

Now, I understand that the social motivations behind Rosa Parks' action were different than the largely economic motivations of a poor Mexican crossing the U.S. border illegally in violation of U.S. immigration laws. The U.S. immigration laws have a number of valid purposes -- maintaining internal security; insuring that U.S. labor costs remain elevated; preventing criminal elements from penetrating our borders, etc. They aren't per se offensive -- at least not in the same sense that the Alabama law in Mrs. Parks's case was.

But consider a hypothetical scenario where that same poor Mexican has a family that, for various reasons he cannot adequately feed or provide for. Is his crossing the border under these circumstances justified? Should he remain in Mexico in desperate straits or try to cross the U.S. border into a country where he knows he will be able to find work,earn much more than he is able to in Mexico, and thereby provide for his loved ones. In so doing, his wife and family will no longer go hungry and in the future may also have more socio-economic opportunities. Some here will undoubtedly say that even under these circumstances the Mexican would be in the wrong in violating the U.S. immigration laws. Others might say that the violation, under these circumstances, is justifiable, and therefore excusable. Personally, I would hold with the latter group.

I realize that not every Mexican who crosses the border is starving or in absolutely hopeless circumstances. I know that there are some that could survive if they remained in Mexico. They might not have a great life by American standards, but it would be tolerable. There are also many who cross illegally that do not intend to remain in the U.S. permanently. Many hope to find work, perhaps stay a few years, save some money in the interim, and then return to Mexico, using their earnings to thereafter buy some property, build a home, or start a small business. Here,I would concede that there is less social justification for the legal violation. I personally am not greatly bothered by this (the stay is temporary; the jobs that are being taken are perhaps, for various reasons, going unfilled by the pool of American labor; the resultant outflow of U.S. dollars to Mexico serves to improve things in Mexico microeconomically; the immigration laws do not provide sufficient quotas to accomodate the demand for agricultural workers, etc.). However, I can see where others might very strongly and very validly disagree with me.

I personally have a lot of trouble with the U.S. citizen child situation too. I don't see a great deal of social utility in having U.S. kids remaining here on welfare if an illegal parent, who would otherwise be supporting them, is deported because of an immigration law violation. Breaking up families is a real problem under the present immigration laws and I have a lot of trouble with it. I also have a lot of trouble with children who are brought here as infants, that become culturally assimilated, and then after years in this country are detected and then removed to a country they know little about.

I think people could validly say that "social justice" is not something that one can utilize practically in an immigration law context. Laws are of general applicability and human situations are individualized and specific. But I personally feel that absolute enforcement of the immigration laws as they are written now tends to create a lot of unnecessary hardship. I think too that when they are applied in a lot of individual contexts or situations, crazy and unwarranted outcomes result that tend to breed a disrespect for these laws.

I also think sometimes many of the present problems with our immigration laws stem from a lack of concensus among our citizenry about immigrants generally; about whether we have an economic need for immigrants; and whether they serve any useful role in our society.

[bliss_eternal]

110. what you see as an apology...

...i see as attempts to validate their comment with dismissive comments and contradictory justifications, for what was said.

you're within your rights to not be concerned about the issue. however, you're not entitled to express passive aggressive knocks against those of us that do care.

[Flaneur]

95. Too many self-appointed thread police on this thread.

[bliss_eternal]

114. guess it depends on one's view.

...from where i sit, i see plenty of people arguing for the right to be insensitive and use oppressive language. :shrug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

96. If I were a typical american, I'd make it stop.

Oh wait, I am.

[BlooInBloo]

97. lol "typical Mexican".

(shrug) It's just how lots and lots of white folks are.

And then it gets even funnier when we whine about "reverse racism". :rofl:

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bliss_eternal]

113. many on this thread need to consider...

...how they would feel, if their ethnic background was put in the place of "mexican".

my post below yours was deleted, for making that very point. it's not ok to say such things no matter what ethnicity is used....(btw, sorry about that mods--i was attempting to make a point. i know it was wrong, but gave it a shot--sincere apologies).

as the long held majority in our country, it's too easy to assume the right to utilize any language one pleases, when referring to the "other." it's also seemingly one's "right" to become enraged when called on it. (as a day's worth of watching or listening to fox news will show)...because they've never been in the position to be spoken of in such a way...

....when someone does, all hell breaks loose, as an experimental thread i created years ago proved:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=231988


lots of offended people who really didn't like the feeling of walking in someone else's shoes (for once). ;)


edited for spelling and clarity.

[miscsoc]

116. i read that thread and your comment here and am thinking about them

i'm re-evaluating things a bit

i don't completely stand by my previous comments on this thread, although i don't wholly disavow them either.

but i am re-examining my views and my knee jerk reactions some of which are expressed in my comments on this thread.

[bliss_eternal]

117. okey dokey...

:thumbsup: ...glad you're mulling things over. thank you--i sincerely appreciate your making the effort! :)

i agree w/your earlier comment that we're all on the same team. i feel it helps when we share goals, such as everyone's equality being priority--especially when any group's equality is threatened, and their humanity is diminished by the powers that be in society.

nice to talk with you....take care! :hi:

[Canuckistanian]

112. If you were Mexican, you'd have heard there's a job waiting for you

Maybe from a friend's friend or your cousin's mechanic. "Sure, buddy, have I got a job for you. Sweet deal, processing chickens in El Norte. Let me introduce you to some guys....."

In the meantime, your family is barely eating, your landlord is threatening to kick you out and your sense of pride has taken a beating.

Suddenly, the offer doesn't look too bad....

[ismnotwasm]

118. Who is a typical Mexican? n/t

[MajorChode]

119. While everything you say may be true, here is why I'm against illegal immigration

The more people that come here illegally, the less legal immigration we can allow. It's really that simple. While I certainly have sympathy for someone who comes here illegally so they can feed themselves and their families, should I have less sympathy for someone who waits in Mexico for their turn to come here legally? And while certainly there's plenty of poverty in Mexico, what about the other areas of the word where poverty is even worse? What social debt do we owe those people, if any?

This country was made great by legal immigration and I believe there's still plenty of room for improvement in that regard.

The answer to illegal immigration is pretty simple. Develop a social security card that is nearly impossible to illegally duplicate and hold employers responsible for hiring people they know are in the country illegally. Once you close the floodgates of illegal immigration, you can open the floodgates of legal immigration. I think that's the tactic the Democrats are trying to employ.

[conservdem]

123. If you were a "typical Mexican" wouldn't you try to improve your country

to help yourself and others instead of just running away?

Running to the US is not a sustainable solution is it?

[treestar]

126. Maybe the "typical" European of the 19th century should have done the same?

[conservdem]

127. You win. You refuted my suggestion.

BTW, what is a "'typical' Eruopean"?