Libertarianism: The problem and the appeal

[cbayer]

From Wiki:

Libertarians have been described as "left" or "right" depending on their views of property rights. According to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, right libertarians hold that the resources "may be appropriated by the first person who discovers them, mixes labor with them, or merely claims them—without the consent of others, and with little or no payment to them." Left-libertarians hold "that unappropriated natural resources belong to everyone in some egalitarian manner." Libertarian socialists are opposed to forms of private property such as capital.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

Libertarians don't like rules or control. Unless, of course, it is a rule or law that protects them, their "rights" and their assets.

If I own property, then I am a rightt-libertarian. If I don't, then I am a left-libertarian. Every other case will be determined by what I have or value.

How convenient.

Simplistic, and probably posted here before many times, but I have little tolerance for this point of view.

[babylonsister]

1. Thanks. So their pov is whatever is convenient for them at the time.

That's why people seem to float towards them at will, and perhaps because it's difficult to define.

[CommonSensePLZ]

7. Seems to be, from the sudden appearance of libertarianism out of nowhere

"No socialism! But thanks for the libraries, insurance and social security checks!"

[Oregone]

2. Its the only avenue left for the Republicans to redeem themselves (and maybe bank left of Dems on...

certain issues).

Expect to see more libertarian voices in the Republican party during this power struggle going on right now (I don't think the crazies will ultimately win...lack of strategy and results will be lacking).

Its possible they will reinvent themselves and resurrect their party through the libertarian appeal

[sendero]

4. Republicans..

... are only interested in the bad parts of libertarianism, i.e. views towards business, economics and property.

All of the good parts, no foreign wars, no idiotic drug war, etc are anathema to them. They really cannot claim to be libertarians, they simply are not they are the worst of both worlds.

[Oregone]

6. Not true at all

And its especially apparent how the empire is fucking the country over these days. Libertarianism has an appeal to everyone when they see how bad these ideas are failing (I know Republicans who are all for pot legalization, due to the failed drug war and the mess in Mexico)

Have you ever heard of Ron Paul? There is a huge grassroots Republican base for him. He would not get the nod, unless the Republicans felt that was the only possible direction to go in to recapture power (and they would have a fair chance if they took the leap maybe)

[sendero]

10. Completely true..

... just wait and see. They are talking, but they are not pulling out of the Middle East over some bogus cloak of new ideology.

[Oregone]

13. "They are talking"

Sure, party leadership is still in that corner. And they are stuck between a rock and a mob of angry idiots. There is no where further right that they can feasibly go and win an election. The writing is on the wall, and *if* they read it properly, the *leadership* can quickly turn libertarian.

As for individual Republicans, there are plenty of Ron/Rand Paul die hards out there, so the broad generalization about Republicans not being really for libertarianism is just a broad brush.

[sendero]

17. I'll check back with you..

... in a couple of years. There is no fucking way republicans are going to embrace the isolationist and personal freedom side of libertarianism.

It's not in 'em, whether it is politically needed or not.

[Oregone]

18. Many already have

Just not the leadership, which is a mess at the moment

[sendero]

19. Republicans....

... are calling for us to withdraw from the ME and legalize drugs?

I'll need some links.

[Oregone]

21. Oh my...you must not of heard of Ron Paul

He has done both those things.

And he is not simply a single example...he has a following of idiots thats support him

This just in (if you believe it)....

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20002497-503544.html

[sendero]

23. You said OTHER REPUBLICANS..

... please don't move the bar. RP has been around for ages and he's not an example of what you are claiming.

[Oregone]

25. Other, as in...read the link

He has Republican support (just not leadership support)

[sendero]

3. Libertarians.

... are the biggest idiots on the face of the planet, and I miss no opportunity to say so.

[leeloo]

11. Libertarians are bad people....I don't like them..

[Oregone]

14. bad people steal women and rape horses

Libertarians are just idiots without much schooling in political philosophy

[leeloo]

22. Ah yes the intelligentsia,those who are smarter than me

hence they should tell me what to do and how to do it..
The chattering class a "noun", well-educated members of the upper-middle or upper class who freely express, liberal opinions or judgments on current issues and events.

Translation...
I have a education and a degree and i am smarter than you,i feel i must tell you how to run your life because you are to stupid to do it yourself..BTW i have a masters in political philosophy...

[Oregone]

26. "BTW i have a masters in political philosophy"

It doesn't show

[leeloo]

28. Ad Hominem

Attacking the person instead of attacking his argument.
Now you could make a comeback with the Argument From Authority,but i never claimed to be a expert.
I believe you said the smart guys have degrees in political philosophy..
I beg to disagree.......

[Oregone]

30. Sorry, but saying "Libertarians are bad people....I don't like them.."

seems a bit incompatible with having a masters in political philosophy. People abscribing to an erroneous and flawed political philosophy doesn't make them "bad people".


"I believe you said the smart guys have degrees in political philosophy.."

I said nothing of the sort.

[leeloo]

34. J'ai l'impression de parler à un mur.Bonne Nuit.

[Oregone]

35. I feel the same way talking to you

Enjoy your night

[Politicub]

5. People who call themselves libertarians are the most gullible folks in the US

They respond to rhetoric more than anyone else it seems.

And if examined, the core of what they believe is cruel and sadistic -- outright disdain for their fellow man. Kind of like the GOP, now that I think about it.

[David in Canada]

8. Libertarianism is...

Libertarianism, at least as espoused by the Libertarian Party and others of their ilk, is essentially sociopathy masquerading as a political system/philosophy, which explains its lack of depth and the lack of concern for society writ large.

[KonaKane]

9. Mostly, they are dishonest.

They either lie about reality in order to fit an argument into their ideological confines, or lie about what their "principles" are because they will change in five minutes if you wait around for it.

Remember how Ron Paul was such a staunch believer in his libertarianism that, when he ran for president, he did it as a Republican?

[Oregone]

16. It would seem Paul is playing upon popular sentiment

Sadly, its working (still). Perhaps he isn't a true libertarian, but an astute politician who woke up one day realizing he put himself in the wrong corner

[rrneck]

12. All I want is what's mine

and whatever is touching it.

Trying to be a libertarian in this country is like trying to be one legged Razoteur at the Pamplona bull run - with corporations as the bulls.

[Odin2005]

15. Right-Libertarians are Anarchists that want police protection from their slaves.

[Taverner]

20. Libertarians are Democrats who have never been laid off n/t

[RM33]

24. It would be great if the GOP became Libertarian.

It would be great if the GOP became Libertarian. Liberals and Libertarians have more in common than Liberals and Conservatives. If the GOP was Libertarian, then, on social matters and foreign policy a lot can get accomplished.

The only battleground would be on economic issues. So here is hoping that the GOP all of the sudden discovers that Ron Paul is right.

[Oregone]

27. They would use it for nothing other than getting elected

Once in power, theyll become the other corporatist part again

[Joe the Liberal]

29. Libertarian - Republican.... There is really no difference.....

besides the name, obviously, but the only things that they differ on are marijuana, war, and monetary policy, everything else just falls in line with the republican mantra.

[JHB]

31. If you don't want simplistic and convenient, don't rely on Wikipedia for your definitions.

I'm a self-described "left libertarian", but I didn't read the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy before using that term and don't feel particularly bound by its definitions.

Now, I'll agree that most of the "right-libertarians" and (no prefix) "libertarians" I've run into fall into the "fuck everybody but me" crowd, but in most of those cases their stated political philosophy isn't particularly relevant... they're just self-centered assholes.

I know I'm not the only "left libertarian" on DU; I've run across a few other people independently using the term in various threads. So when you're finished having your fun beating up a straw man, why don't you try asking people what they think and why before proclaiming "little tolerance" for it. It may turn out you have lots of tolerance for it, at least on some issues, because chances are it's a lot like your own.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. Left-Libertarians are Anarchists.

The Libertarian Party and it's adherents are Ayn Rand Objectivists.

The differences are vast and go far beyond property.

[bridgit]

33. My husband worked with them when they started up in 71, but soon parted with them...

over their disrespect for the republic, the freedoms & liberties of others and their idiot thoughts on irresponsible capitalism & taxes which amount to representation *without* taxation :thumbsdown: