Driving home from Target today, pass a house COVERED in patriotic decorations

[DainBramaged]

American flags, love it or leave it, support those who defend your right to be free. In Wharton NJ.


And in the driveway, A Toyota Highlander and a Corolla.



We sure are free.............

[RandomThoughts]

1. I like to ask people what freedom means.

Amazing how many have not ever thought about the word they hang there hat on.

[Dr Morbius]

114. I think I've thought of a good way to explain it.

I tell people that freedom is power.

And that always, power comes with responsibility.

At that point, I tend to see eyebrows rise. I tell them freedom means embracing the consequences of one's actions. Acting without consequence is not freedom. It is anarchy. I tell them: if I'm free to do anything, then I have the responsibility to do what is right. This generally results in a silent nodding of the head, and the end of any further conversation.

[olegramps]

123. The free-choicers will come out in droves to justify their purchase.

It really doesn't matter too much anymore. The unions have been busted and the jobs out-sourced. The American workers screwed their own selves. Look at the textile industry. In those anti-union right to work states of the South the tens of thousands of textile workers jobs have disappeared leaving entire sections without a viable industry. The area is so desperate that they bid to get foreign companies to locate in their towns. As Donald Trump said recently the Chinese must think we are the dumbest bastards alive. The Japanese have know this for decades.

I happen to have been engaged in attempts by the company that I was employed with to gain markets in Japan. They made it virtually impossible with their licensing procedures to clear the obstacles they imposed. As far as opening a plant there, it would take an act of God to overcome their restrictions. They demanded complete product disclosure and we saw back-engineering of the products that we had intended to introduce to the market magically appear as being offered by Japanese companies. These bastards were rotten to the core and unfortunately came away very embittered.

[DainBramaged]

128. They aren't 'free-choicers' they are free trade apologists and phonies

all they care about is buying on the cheap. They buy foreign cars and SUVs, they shop at WalMart, they hope for the demise of American industry while wondering why they can't get a job or a better job...

The Chinese must think we are the dumbest bastards alive. The Japanese have known this for decades. What a sad commentary on our country.

[yodoobo]

2. freedom implies choice

Sounds like his choice was an automobile different than what you think he should be required to drive.

Fortunately, you are free to complain about his choice of automobile using your chinese made computer.

[hack89]

3. Free to make our own choices? You bet. nt

[Shell Beau]

4. And thankfully free to drive what I want!

A Honda Accord, btw.

[DainBramaged]

17. You don't get it do you?

Do you think they drive Fords or Chevy's in japan? Korea?


We can't import more than a few thousand a year, and we can't BUILD THEM THERE either.


That's what freedom means, but we aren't free to trade equally with the japanese or Koreans.

Something most of you will never understand.

[Shell Beau]

28. I understand, but I also don't criticize people for what they

drive or wear or use. Most all of use (if not all of us) use many things that aren't made in this country. So to criticize him for driving a Toyota while I have products made in China is kind of hypocritical don't ya think?

[emilyg]

61. +1

[proud2BlibKansan]

120. +1

[DainBramaged]

129. Has it ever dawned on you how few products japan and Korea allow into their countries from the U.S.?

And have you ever wondered why they restrict trade with us but we don't restrict trade from them while our industries disintegrate?

No of course not, most of you here only see what's in front of you at any given moment.


I'll give you an example. Japan virtually makes it impossible to import American grown apples because the tariffs they place on them is more than 50% of their actual value, making them uncompetitive in japan. The same in Korea, yet we allow apples and tangerines without restriction from them.


We are stupid.


Korea to Export Tangerines, Apples to U.S. Korea can export tangerines and apples to the U.S. starting this year. The U.S. agreed to import the fruits at bilateral plant quarantine inspection talks held in Oregon last week, the National Plant Quarantine Service said Wednesday.

Korea had exported tangerines to the U.S. from 1995 until 2002, when citrus canker, which causes lesions on the fruit of citrus trees, was discovered in Korea.

In the talks, the Korean delegation emphasized that the disease was not likely to spread through the tangerines, and the U.S. side accepted the point.

http://www.21food.com/news/detail26399.html

[Obamanaut]

111. Could the inequalities in trade agreements be placed at the feet

of congress, who makes those agreements?

And further, could 'we the people' share some of the blame for electing/reelecting those same congress members for a lifetime career? After one gets in, we keep him/her by voting for 'the name you know.'

[Art_from_Ark]

137. There are Fords and Chevys in Japan

The problem is, and I have said this before, is that most American cars are not suited for Japanese roads. Really. What is called a "compact car" in the US is "standard size" in Japan. You pay out the ying-yang to have a car with an engine over 2 liters in Japan, what with the high cost of fuel (about $5.50/gallon as I write), the high annual car taxes, the added fees for inspections, insurance, weight taxes, and so on. A car with a 2-liter engine is estimated to cost twice as much to operate as a sub-compact car with a 650cc engine. Plus, the big American cars are road hogs here, and they often have a hell of a time trying to squeeze into parking spaces. Who needs that? Detroit could possibly sell more cars in Japan if they actually made cars that conformed more to what is affordable and convenient to operate here in Japan, but they contract most of that work out anyway.

[Orrex]

108. Why don't you just take a dump on the flag while you're at it?

Your evil Honda Accord makes the ghost of Thomas Jefferson cry.

How do you sleep?

[Fumesucker]

5. Tar-zhay..

Ah yes, that vast and noble emporium of strictly American made goods.

[glinda]

6. and giver of many jobs in MN.

[Fumesucker]

7. We have them here too..

Low paying and do anything to keep the help under forty hours so they can't get benefits.

TwixVoy has a number of posts up about his experiences at Tar-zhay, he was a manager for them and they truly suck to work at.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[glinda]

22. Then people can work at Walmart I suppose. Target has it's headquarters here.

[proudohioan]

37. I imagine that both Walmart and Target both suck to work at.

That would be my guess, anyhow.

[glinda]

109. I still think Target better than Walmart. I hate how Walfart shuts Target out of areas.

[proudohioan]

112. We actually have both Target and Walmart within a half mile of each other.

And I also prefer Target for shopping, but I don't think I'd like to work at either one of them.

[glinda]

117. If you were a smaller town, most likely Walfart would be there and not Target.

[DainBramaged]

126. WalMart is abandoning smaller locations and consolidating

leaving people in the lurch.


http://walmartwatch.com/


Wal-Mart Now Has 12 Dead Stores In Ohio

[proudohioan]

133. That is true....

When I drove from Cleveland to Denver last summer, all that I saw across I-80 in the smaller towns were Walmarts. They actually kind of pissed me off, cuz at one point in some town in western Iowa, I needed to stock up on some more car groceries, ie, bread, peanut butter, water, cheese slices, etc.. for the 3 of us. I went to use my EBT card, and was told that Walmart does not accept out of state food stamps. I asked to speak with a manager, who came by and confirmed. I told him food stamps were a federal program, and I had recently been a cashier in Ohio, and we always accepted any other states EBT.... furthermore, Walmart is a big beneficiary of the food stamps program, seeing as how they pay their employees so poorly that most are on some form of public assistance. The manager just apologized and stated that was company policy.....

I put the stuff back and drove on to Des Moines where there were actual grocery stores that accepted out of state food stamps.

I really didn't need yet another reason not to shop at Walmart..... I do feel bad for folks in smaller towns that would rather not shop at Walmart, but there is nothing else around, so there is no other choice.

[Odin2005]

8. Sounds like a Moran that needs a Brain.

[AnArmyVeteran]

9. Freedom means Forced Prayer, intrusions in your bedrooms & bodies & a theocratic government...

[onenote]

10. you could drive by my house and see an American flag and a Prius with an Obama sticker

What exactly is your point? That I'm a hypocrite?

[DainBramaged]

32. Checked the brakes on that Prius lately?

The Prius, the American way of green-washing a generation.....

[onenote]

62. yep and they're fine as is my honda hybrid

[DainBramaged]

68. Another greenwashed DUer............

:eyes:

[onenote]

70. I'm certainly awash in more "green" since I spend 1/2 of what I used to on gasoline

getting 37 mpg in the honda and upper 40s in the prius compared to what I was getting in my non-hybrids.

Loving that green.

[NNN0LHI]

11. They will be driving them Toyota's to the unemployment office soon

And then they will be like, "Where are all the jobs?"

I tell them the jobs are all in Japan.

Don

[DainBramaged]

16. They will cheer if toYOYOta is handing out the unemployment checks

they'll think they are better made......\



As is always the case here, so so many just don't get it. They think 'choice' is the ability to buy what they want. But when the playing field isn't level, and the jobs run out, they will be the ones to bitch the loudest and longest.

[druidity33]

12. doesn't Toyota

employ more American workers than Ford?

:shrug:

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[girl gone mad]

55. I love my Japanese car, made mostly in America..

by well paid laborers who work for Japanese CEOs that take home a fraction of what their American counterparts make and don't go whining to American taxpayers for a massive handout when their shitty business model bankrupts them.

[DainBramaged]

57. Merry Christmas

[tammywammy]

60. Except that Toyota gets big handouts from the Japanese government

They don't ask the US govt for bailout money, they ask their own country. :shrug:

[girl gone mad]

85. Not exactly.

They've taken out low interest loans from government-backed banks. Not quite the same as the $$multi-billion subsidies our auto industry was given.

You would be better off arguing that the Japanese government provides support to their entire domestic manufacturing sector in the form of currency manipulation.

[DainBramaged]

89. Bullcrap, the 'loans' will never be paid back, they aren't transparent like we are

who do you think paid for the development of the Prius, Toyota? Their executives admitted they were financed by the japanese government.


Rah rah rah japan........why don't you live there?

[girl gone mad]

103. The executives did not admit the Prius was financed by the government.

Both the Japanese government and Toyota repeatedly denied that rumor.

[tammywammy]

93. The currency manipulation is a whole 'nother thread discussion.

:)

[olegramps]

116. Their shitty business model consisted of benefits for retired workers.

Health care costs that aren't a burden to Japanese manufacturers are a major factor. Where did the foreign manufactures locate their plants in the United States? Now it couldn't be that they located them in states that just happen to have anti-union right to work laws?

[DainBramaged]

118. Of the TENS OF THOUSANDS of workers who have passed through the doors of toYOYOta plants

only about 2000 have actually retired and are collecting benefits. And their healthcare plan for retired members is NOTHING like the UAWs. ToYOYOta actually built their last plant in Canada so they would NOT have to pay health care costs for the employees.

[blue_onyx]

19. Would you please...

provide facts to back up your statement "that these American manufacturers have already moved most of the jobs to Mexico, Brazil and China."

[DainBramaged]

21. Not a chance, these shotgun post by the import lovers are common

there will be no links, cites, proof, nothing, just bullcrap, just like the Reich-wing. Throw it against the wall, see what sticks.


MY CAR was MADE in OHIO, MADE NOT ASSEMBLED LIKE Toyota's and Honda's, MADE. MY CAR isn't involved in human trafficking, hidden defects that KILL, or a corporation who raced America to the lowest possible wage by keeping Unions out of their precious assembly plants.

[blue_onyx]

23. It's odd that...

the poster talked about not letting facts get in the way but didn't provide any facts (neither did the person he/she was responding to). Oh well...it's what I've come to expect on DU.

[DainBramaged]

27. it's that mentality we're not allowed to talk about but have to be nice to

lest we piss off our adversaries.........

[girl gone mad]

79. Even if final assembly takes place in the US,

it's a given that many of the parts are made by cheap labor in foreign factories.

http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/briefingpapers_bp147

http://www.angrybearblog.com/2008/11/us-government-funds-brazilian-gm-plants.html

http://oica.net/category/production-statistics/

Interesting.. 2 Toyotas in the list of top ten cars manufactured mostly in the US. Lots and lots of "American" cars didn't even make the cut.

http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/355/the-carscom-american-made-index

And, no, it's not easy to prove what cars are really being made here or not, but if you want to know the truth, I'd urge you to take a look at how much money GM has been pouring into their Brazilian plants, even as they were begging for bailouts from US taxpayers and laying off tens of thousands of American workers. Here's what cars.com had to say about their attempts to learn just where our cars are made:

Editor's Note

In today's global economy, there's no easy way to determine just how American a car is. Many cars built in the U.S., for example, are assembled using parts that come from somewhere else. Some cars assembled in the U.S. from strictly American-made parts don't sell very well, meaning that fewer Americans are building those models. Cars.com's American-Made Index highlights the cars that are built here, have the highest amount of domestic parts, and are bought in the largest numbers by Americans.

There are a few options for determining a car's domestic-parts content. We went with the figure that appears alongside the window sticker of new cars as a result of the American Automobile Labeling Act, enacted in 1994. The AALA mandates that virtually every new car display the percentage, by cost, of its parts that originated in the U.S. and Canada. We deemed cars with a domestic-parts content rating of 75 percent or higher eligible for the index.

My Japanese car was 65% made in America, btw... in plants in Ohio. My cousin works in one of those plants.

[DainBramaged]

82. Here's a fact, japan exported almost $600 BILLION in auto parts and vehicles to the US in 2008

Know how much we exported to them? About $60 billion.,

Don't come on here and defend them and the unfair trading practices they have perfected while compliant politicians and people like yourselves wonder where the jobs are going.

[girl gone mad]

87. I don't wonder where the jobs are going. I know where the jobs are going.

They are going right where GM executives are sending them. To Brazil, Mexico and China.

Japan's population is much smaller than ours. Of course they are going to export more auto parts here than they import from here. Even if we were more competitive and the playing field was perfectly even, that would still be the case.

[DainBramaged]

94. Brazil and China are expanding markets for GM, why not japan?

you can try as hard as you can to support the japanese here, but the fact remains, the jobs are gone because we don't have fair trade.... and if they aren't allowed to expand their markets, is that the fault of the government or the japanese who want to eliminate competition.


You've tried supporting the japanese for months here. But I no longer wish to converse. You are wrong, and it's sad you are on their side.


goodbye.

[blue_onyx]

86. The US companies...

are building vehicles in China and Brazil for those markets. Just as Toyota builds vehicles here for the US market.

That original statement you made, "that these American manufacturers have already moved most of the jobs to Mexico, Brazil and China" is completely false. Interestingly you have shifted the topic because you can't prove that statement to be correct.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tammywammy]

96. You're exactly right about the American manufacturers overseas

There was quite an outrage quite a while ago about GM opening plants in Brazil and India, but people didn't comprehend they were for cars to be sold there.

[girl gone mad]

102. No, they are not just for cars to be sold there.

That's absolutely false.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/07/AR2009050704336.html?hpid=topnews

[girl gone mad]

101. okay, replace "most" with "many" if it makes you happy.

Eventually it will be "most". And no, they aren't just building cars for foreign markets in foreign factories. That's simply a lie.

Under Restructuring, GM To Build More Cars Overseas
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/07/AR2009050704336.html?hpid=topnews

The U.S. government is pouring billions into General Motors in hopes of reviving the domestic economy, but when the automaker completes its restructuring plan, many of the company's new jobs will be filled by workers overseas.

According to an outline the company has been sharing privately with Washington legislators, the number of cars that GM sells in the United States and builds in Mexico, China and South Korea will roughly double.

The proportion of GM cars sold domestically and manufactured in those low-wage countries will rise from 15 percent to 23 percent over the next five years, according to the figures contained in a 12-page presentation offered to lawmakers in response to their questions about overseas production.

As a result, the long-simmering argument over U.S. manufacturers expanding production overseas -- normally arising between unions and private companies -- is about to engage the Obama administration.

Essentially in control of the company, the president's autos task force faces an awkward choice: It can either require General Motors to keep more jobs at home, potentially raising labor costs at a company already beset with financial woes, or it can risk political fury by allowing the automaker to expand operations at lower-cost manufacturing locations.


US Taxpayers are creating auto jobs in Brazil as General Motors to Invest $1 Billion in Brazil Operations
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/01/january-ends-with-grim-news-on-stocks.html

General Motors plans to invest $1 billion in Brazil to avoid the kind of problems the U.S. automaker is facing in its home market, said the beleaguered car maker.

According to the president of GM Brazil-Mercosur, Jaime Ardila, the funding will come from the package of financial aid that the manufacturer will receive from the U.S. government and will be used to "complete the renovation of the line of products up to 2012."

"It wouldn't be logical to withdraw the investment from where we're growing, and our goal is to protect investments in emerging markets," he said in a statement published by the business daily Gazeta Mercantil.

Ford's Most Advanced Assembly Line
http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189 (video)

This is in Brazil and it is the future of auto manufacturing. Since the UAW won't allow it here, Ford plans to just move more and more of their manufacturing to other countries.

[blue_onyx]

105. Still an incorrect statement

Changing most to many doesn't make it better. You said that "that these American manufacturers have already moved most of the jobs to Mexico, Brazil and China." So many things wrong with the statement. 15% is many? 23% is most? You're really stretching here. Additionally, jobs have not been shipped to China and Brazil since no vehicle production has been shipped from the US to those countries. Maybe you should research before making a statements...that way, you don't have to keep correcting yourself.

I didn't say that GM doesn't build vehicles in foreign countries for the US market. I said the vehicles built in the countries (China and Brazil) you listed are meant for those markets.

[DainBramaged]

18. And who do you work for? Actually I don't give a shit.

When we can open manufacturing plants in japan and Korea, and sell our cars on the same playing field the japanese and Koreans sell their here, I'll think about your question. Until then, maybe you should buy American and stop supporting foreign governments.

[Shell Beau]

I don't undestand why you'd want to tell someone else what to do.

[DainBramaged]

31. I don't understand why you DON'T want to support your country?

[Shell Beau]

34. So it's like that?

Everything you own was made here in the USA by Americans?

[DainBramaged]

39. I only wish, you know me btter than that.

I try hard very hard to buy AMERICAN MADE UNION MADE products, clothes, tools. Harder than most here.


So don't throw that at me you KNOW it's impossible.

[Shell Beau]

41. Ok, but like I don't know you, you don't know most here either.

Or the guy whose house you rode by.

[DainBramaged]

42. (sigh) whatever......................

[Shell Beau]

44. Is what I wrote false?

[Dreamer Tatum]

36. But you don't want your country supported. You want the UAW supported.

That much is clear.

[DainBramaged]

40. I am sure you are clear about lots of things

So assume all you want.

[Shell Beau]

43. But you are the one who made assumptions about the person

whose house you rode by. What if those weren't even his/her cars?

[DainBramaged]

45. Assume what you want.......

[Dreamer Tatum]

46. You made your position clear immediately

It's possible that those cars were made by American workers in the United States.

So your problem with what you saw stems from the cars being made by the WRONG Americans.

[DainBramaged]

49. LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA

:patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot:

[Shell Beau]

52. Why do you do that? You started this discussion but you won't hear

anything other than what you want to hear. I don't get it.

[DainBramaged]

56. BECAUSE YOU FOLKS WILL NEVER CHANGE AND SUPPORT AMERICAN GOODS

and that is the point.


Goodnight to you too. Go buy your Foreign crap, enjoy it.

[Shell Beau]

59. ACtually I am still driving the car my parents bought me for my 21st

birthday. But when I do buy another one, I will buy the most reliable car I can afford.

Let me add that I am 31 and the car was a couple of years old when I got it. It has kicked some major ass as far as cars go. But that is what Hondas do. It still has a good 75,000 miles left in it, and I am going to ride it until it dies. I don't want a car payment.

[Dreamer Tatum]

63. I LOVE my Honda, thanks

And anytime I enter a store in the United States of America and trade with an American, I am supporting American workers.

You might broaden your view, Archie.

[tammywammy]

65. I do support American goods

I'm about to purchase a new table and chairs. I can get a similar model from one store but it's foreign made. I can get it from an American company for more money. I'm buying the American made table and chair sets. Just because a car is foreign doesn't mean someone doesn't support American workers.

If I had bought a Mazda 6 is that supporting American workers?

[DainBramaged]

74. It amazes me how you think this is a joke

I thought better of you before tonight.....now I will say more than goodnight.

[tammywammy]

77. It amazes me that you think I'm joking

What exactly did I say that was a joke? That I'm purchasing an American made table and chairs over the foreign made ones. That one can support American workers while not driving an "American" car? And you said "support American goods." Does the Mazda 6 not qualify as American goods, since it was assembled by Americans or did you mean UAW made vehicles?

[Name removed]

90. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Shell Beau]

48. What am I assuming? You aren't answering me at all.

That is fine, but this was your topic, and I am just trying to discuss it.

[tammywammy]

47. You shouldn't be friends with people that drive foreign cars either.

;)

[Shell Beau]

50. I am so screwed then. I drive a Honda and my husband's

company provides him a Toyota (he used to have a Chevy, but they went all Toyota... before the Toyota incidents). I think I am screwed and a terrible citizen.

[tammywammy]

58. Well I drive a Volkswagen

But I tell my friends with foreign cars to park a street over. :)

[DainBramaged]

51. I'm not.........and I am proud we own American iron, cars and trucks

That's the point. I live my life as best as I can supporting American made goods by Union workers. But since you don't believe me or care except to make a nonsensical point, I'll say goodnight to you.

[Shell Beau]

53. So you'll choose your friends based on what they drive?

Really?

[yodoobo]

91. I know a few high school girls that do that.

Well when I was in high school.

Didn't realize that some adults carried that into adulthood.

[tammywammy]

54. Yes, but those vehicles you saw could have not been the homeowners

:shrug:

Also, I don't choose my friends based on what they drive, more on the content of their character. But more power to you.

[Dreamer Tatum]

66. That's it, folks: the ultimate expression of your American citizenship

is to buy and operate an American car that is made by union labor.

Otherwise, your life is worthless.

[DainBramaged]

67. Union made GOODS, you really need to fix your reading comprehension

And right now, I think the most valuable tool made in America is my ignore list.......

[Dreamer Tatum]

69. Why do you need an ignore list when you have your LALALALALALALALA

crap?

[Shell Beau]

71. So you wrote this only for the people who agree with you 100%, and for

those that don't they go on ignore? Why start a topic at all?

[tammywammy]

72. So is it union made goods or American made goods?

In 56 you said "American made goods" and now you say "union made."

I will assume you mean union made in the whole thread, as I think you'd look down your nose at someone driving a Nissan Maxima as well. :shrug:

[DainBramaged]

76. One last time, since you think this is a joke

I realized something a few seconds ago, people you think have a clue about America, Unions, and supporting those jobs are really not what you think they are.


And that includes you.

[tammywammy]

78. I'm sorry that the world is so black and white to you that you don't see the shades of gray

And sorry that asking questions about what you mean, means you're put on the ignore list.

[DainBramaged]

81. You've read DOZENS of my threads about union -made AMERICAN UNION MADE goods

and your playing ignorant KNOWING FULL WELL Mazda's are UAW made since we HAD this conversation months ago just infuriates me. I BELONG to the UAW, and EVERYTIME I see one of you mock our cars and trucks and cheerlead for Foreign entities who raced us to the bottom by putting factories in the most uneducated states in the union while NOT PERMITTING US to compete in their homelands opens my eyes to the injustice right here on DU. YOU people are educated and should know better.


But you don't.


Goodbye.


http://www.uaw.org/uawmade/auto/2010/index.cfm

[hobbit709]

80. So is it better to buy a car

made by nonunion labor in Mexico that has an American company name or a Japanese car built by nonunion labor in the United States?

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yodoobo]

88. Supporting a megacorporation is NOT supporting your country

I find it amazing that someone believes that giving bigauto money is equated to supporting your country.

[druidity33]

83. hey, don't be a jerk

I own a Ford. Funny thing is, i don't and never have had a drivers license. But my wife was a Union President when we bought, so we looked at only Union made vehicles.

Where does who i work for come into this? I work part-time at a restaurant as a prep cook, if you really want to know... oh, i guess you don't give a shit. I'm part of the growing Underemployed class. A college degree and you'll find this 20 year Vegetarian slicing roast beef and skinning chicken in a basement 3 days a week. But that's right, you don't care about me because i "support foreign governments".

:eyes:

[DainBramaged]

84. Maybe if we had leveled the playing field years ago you wouldn't be underemployed

And if you think fighting for jobs here is being a jerk, keep slicing........

[Codeine]

25. In union-busting states, sure.

They just closed their last UAW plant. Enjoy that race to the bottom. :puke:

[emilyg]

64. Yes it does.

[NNN0LHI]

97. Which plants do you think Toyota is going to close first when we can't afford their cars any more?

The ones in Japan or the ones in the US?

Hint: They just closed one in California.

Don

[DainBramaged]

100. The group here doesn't get it, and they think it's fun to mock Unions

and they wonder why I put so many of them on ignore. It's not from a narrow viewpoint, it's the hypocrisy. Fuck 'em.


And they'll make note that it was the NUMMI plant, but because TOYOTA did not want to continue the venture with GM in bankruptcy, GM pulled out, then Toyota tried to blame GM for pulling out and closed it down. They screwed the UAW members there who made the Corolla and Matrix because they did not want to pay Union scale wages.

Toyota, race to the bottom, but buy their cars because they are 'better'.

America is stupid.

[tammywammy]

104. GM didn't stay at NUMMI either n/t

[NNN0LHI]

106. GM was in bankruptcy protection

Toyota wasn't. Whats their excuse?

Don

[tammywammy]

107. Their partner pulled out of the deal. n/t

[tammywammy]

14. Yes, I love that we have the freedom of choice

I have an American flag up on my house and a Volkswagen in the driveway. :shrug:

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

24. There is nothing unamerican about buying products you prefer

[Codeine]

26. But telling UAW workers to eat shit and die

in favor of union-busting GOP states is as un-American as can be IMO.

[DainBramaged]

29. I have come to the conclusion that the gun lobby is being courted here

and the Unions are being attacked JUST like in the media.

We are losing to these scumbags.

[tammywammy]

33. The gun lobby is being courted here?

Are you saying that anyone that supports the second amendment is a member of the gun lobby?

[DainBramaged]

35. Nope. But you can read anything you want into anything I write, it's DU

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[tammywammy]

38. I was asking for clarification of your statement.

But sure, thanks for proving that the gun lobby is being courted here. :shrug:

[Xenotime]

30. Sounds like an over-compensating RWr to me.

[Kalun D]

73. Typical Repugs

It's all about the hypocrisy

sure the Japanese cars are built here, but the profit goes to Japan. And they only build factories in Union busting right to work states

that doesn't mean the US manufacture CEO's aren't a bunch of overpaid criminal douche-bags, they offshore too and they don't plan ahead for crap

[Shell Beau]

75. We can only assume this person is a repub. For all

we know it could be one of DU's finest. I drive a Honda, so...

[yodoobo]

98. who cares where the profit goes?

Why should I care if a fat RICH GM/FORD/Chrysler shareholder makes money, vs a fat RICH Toyota/Honda/Nissan shareholder?

its not my job to worry about the pockets of rich auto company owners. It's my job to worry about MY pocket.

If you are buying a car that is made in America by Americans, only a fool would worry about which rich person is getting richer.

[Kalun D]

110. Local

because the money stays local

[yodoobo]

122. shareholders are not local

All the megacorporations (not just auto companies) have their shareholders flung all across the world.

What matters to us is where the 1) parts are made, 2) the auto is assembled and 3) where the auto is sold.

The more items 1 through 3 are local the better off we are. Thats where the tax base comes in and where Americans are employed.


If they have you worrying about where shareholders are and the money they get, then you've bought into something that I think you would prefer to not be a part of.

[Kalun D]

136. Gray

I don't think this is a black and white issue. Do the shareholders get all the profit? Doesn't some of it go back into the company? Does the corporation even pay taxes? Many of them don't.

for the record I don't think buying a Japanese car is all that bad, or that buying an American car is all that good, because there's always multiple sources. But you can evaluate something when you buy it to see how much of it is made here. The Monroney is now required to have that info. And it always helps to buy local.

[NNN0LHI]

113. Here, let me explain to you why it matters

http://www.globalexchange.org/war_peace_democracy/oil/1589.html

Ford plant closing symbolic of loss of manufacturing jobs

Associated Press
February 22, 2004

EDISON, N.J. (AP) —When the Ford Motor plant closes its assembly line Thursday, it will continue the steady departure of manufacturing jobs from New Jersey, particularly in the auto industry.

New Jersey's auto industry once included plants in Mahwah and Edgewater and had more than 14,000 workers in 1970.

After the closing of the Ford plant, that number will drop down to little more than 1,000. General Motors, which operates the state's lone remaining auto plant in Linden, said last week it will lay off 350 of the factory's 1,350 employees.

In all manufacturing, New Jersey has lost 241,000 jobs, or about 40 percent, since 1990.


-----------------------------------------------

These former autoworkers were once paying taxes into the federal and state tax coffers which pay for teachers, police, fire, road repair crews and any other government workers. Big taxes too.

Now you take those jobs away and put all these people to work at Walmart where they not only don't pay much taxes because the pay is so little and then compound that by them being eligible for Medicaid. Because thats the way Walmart does it. They give their workers just enough hours and pay to keep them poor and dependent on the government.

When someone buys an imported car the workers who built that car are not paying into our tax base. They are paying into their own governments tax coffers.

And then all of a sudden when there is no money to pay our teachers and other government employees so we need to start cutting those jobs.

So how did the person who lost one of those government jobs because we can't afford to pay them any more because our tax base is gone but has a Honda in the driveway they can no longer pay for come out ahead on this deal?

Hope that explains it well enough for you.

Don

[yodoobo]

121. thanks, but you missed the mark a bit

Your story illustrates the old way of looking at it. That "foreign" cars are built overseas and "American" cars are built here. That's no longer a rule of thumb.

the comparison is between cars built in America.


True story - I have a close family member that worked for GM. He's now laid off. In fact he was a VP in the local UAW plant. He bought a new GM pickup truck a year or two before his plant closed. Thought he was doing his part for America and the UAW and his fellow workers. A week or two after he got the truck home he was reading the manual and paperwork and found that his truck was built in - Mexico. So much for helping the American tax base and American workers. All he did was help some shareholders somewhere.

Lets talk comparison:

Person A buys Toyota built in America for $20,000.
Person B buys Ford built in America for $20,000.

1) In both cases some said profit goes to an American dealership
2) In both cases some said profit goes to a mega-corporation.

Frankly, I DON'T CARE which mega-corporation gets the profit. And then which megacorporation shareholder see his stock rise by whatever.

In both cases the car is built in a plant in America and supports the local tax base (per your example)

Of course its hardly that simple because we have to add in

Person C buys Ford built in Japan for $20,000.
Person D buys Toyota built in Japan for $20,000.



What does Person C do for the local tax base? What does Person D do for the local tax base?


**
In any event. My concern is for the workers and the local economy. Buy cars that were made here. I don't give a flip where megacorporation HQ is and who the shareholders are.

[NNN0LHI]

127. No you are missing the point

When Japan allows US automakers to freely sell and build cars in their country what you say would be true.

Let me give you an example.

American car buyers can purchase any car he wants.

Japanese car buyers would like to have one of those new Mustangs or Challengers built here but he doesn't get that option.

So that puts an American worker out of work for about a week. Enough of those weeks add up over time.

Why do you think Japan won't let us sell our cars over there? Do you think it is because they are stupid?

No its because they are smart and Americans who don't have a decent job because of it are the stupid ones.

They protect their industry and jobs they have for their fellow citizens. We don't.

Thats why their unemployment rate through one of the worst global recessions of all time is about 5% while ours is about 10%.

Do you see it now?

Don

[yodoobo]

131. protectionism is a problem.

You won't get an argument from me there.

So the question is do we want Japanese citizens to have the same choices that we have, or do we want to limit the choices of Americans?

My vote is that Japan should open up their markets and that Americans should be allowed to choose as they see fit.

[NNN0LHI]

134. They are using the same business plan as Walmart uses

Undercut everyone else until they are the only game in town and then we have no choice but purchase what they are selling regardless of whether we like it or not.

The way I look at it is if someone else was doing that to you I would do my best to circumvent that from happening by not falling for it because I know if you don't have a job the chances are slim that you will have the purchasing power to purchase the product or services I am trying to sell here.

See, its like a circle.

You help me and I help you.

You don't help me and I may not be able to help you.

See what I trying to say here?

Don

[Biker13]

99. I Bet...

The home owner was a Vet. We drive a Mitsubishi.

Oh, and a 1949 all American Harley. Of course, Biker13 built it himself. Does that count?

Biker's Old Lady, and proud of my Old Man, a Vet.

[TommyO]

115. I love it! I need to get pictures of this

[proud2BlibKansan]

119. Target is strongly anti-union. Hope you weren't shopping there.

[DainBramaged]

125. Why should you care, you own toYOYOtas and let us know how much better

they are than UAW made autos. I don't shop at WalMart, do you? They CLOSED the ACME close to me, which was UNION STAFFED BY THE UFCW, so the next choice is Target.


Stop with your fake Union support.

[proud2BlibKansan]

130. No I don't own Toyotas or Toyoyotas either

Great big FAIL.

But seriously if you want to play this buy only American products from union companies game, then you shouldn't be shopping at Target. My point stands.

[DainBramaged]

132. Let's agree that we are no longer friends here.

And leave it at that. You proved your lack of support for Unions previously in conversations, and when you can prove you are as supportive of American unions as I am, maybe we'll talk again. Until then, quit throwing stones, you have awful big windows.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

124. If you were to post something similar about WalMart, you would have maybe...one person defend it

But for some reason, that same feeling doesn't translate into cars...

[Throd]

135. Free to buy the car I like.